Natural test levels lower after each cycle?!

**Ntpadude** · 08-24-2005, 09:55 AM

Originally Posted by Jsik98

That's interesting. I'm surprised at the fact you're levels are higher now then before you started cycling. I'd be curious to see if this is a result of simply never being fully flushed of all drugs between tests and what you're seeing in test results is not really your "normal" hormonal state. How long after PCT was you last test taken?

3 and 4 months on all three occassions. I havent even mentioned the "while on tongkat" test I did after I ended a 8 month straight cycle... it was 3 months after cycle ended and I was still taking tongkat and I had levels test levels over 1000 and free test levels the lab had never seen before in the 180's. I was almost better off on tongkat alone then doing an injected testosterone cycle.

**Oasis** · 08-24-2005, 10:00 AM

We recently attended a conference in regards to the use of HRT programs. Something that we would like to pass on to individuals is that a point was made at the conference that one should not be completely concerned entirely on the total test level but other factors. One of those factors that was mentioned was an individual's bioavailable testosterone Which is a calculation using an individuals Albumin,Total Test Level, SHBG. The optimal ranges for bioavailable test should range from 120-600ng/dl males and 2-20ng/dl females. For individuals that would like more information or assistance with an HRT programs please contact us directly.

Oasis Longevity & Rejuvenation Institute
1-877-548-3968
www.oasisrejuvenation.com

**Pinnacle** · 08-24-2005, 10:01 AM

In healthy ADULT males.I'll repeat this.In healthy ADULT males,there is zero evidence of what is being speculated on in this thread.

**Seattle Junk** · 08-24-2005, 10:21 AM

Originally Posted by speak

I agree 100%, you have three years on me, but we think exactly the same. Friends sit there and tell you how bad juice is while they are smoking a cig, and drinking with their gut hanging out. I havn't dated a girl within 8 years of my age since i don't know when.

Yeah, or the friend that drinks a half rack every night after work telling ya "it'll ruin ya". Or the uneducated gf that won't take time to learn about it but she repeats stuff she hears on TV, media. I know exactly what you're saying.

It all comes down to hard work in the gym, nutrition and a clean lifestyle. Most people our age are now fully involved in their careers. So they use their job and age as an excuse for their poor health. Why not exceed in both? My opinion... They're lazy. I fell into the same trap for the last 5 years up until 8 months ago. Thank God I snapped out of it. Now my quality of life is excellent.

**charlieuk** · 08-24-2005, 10:37 AM

Ntpadude, what make of tongkat do you use and what dose have you found effective.

I fancy giving it a try

**Jsik98** · 08-24-2005, 11:09 AM

Originally Posted by Pinnacle

Show me clinical,unbaised,controled studies that Anabolic Steroids decrease you Test levels over time.I'll settle for one study.Go ahead and link it up for all to see.

I see the point you're trying to make, but I'm not sure why you're trying to make it. I couldn't find anything specifically stating that steroids decrease endogenous testosterone output over time, which isn't what I said anyway! I said that after juicing one's hormone levels will never be the same. That doesn't neccesarily mean lower testosterone, but possibly heightened estrogen. And I'm sorry to say, but that's the truth. You may get them within ball park range again, but not exactly where they were. That's my only point - that levels never go back to exactly where they were, which does change your body chemistry to some extent. Like Ntpadude posted before, his levels are now higher than before he even started.
So, I couldn't find any scientific data to prove my point, but there is plenty of anecdotal evidence to support my statement.

**Jsik98** · 08-24-2005, 11:19 AM

Originally Posted by Pinnacle

In healthy ADULT males.I'll repeat this.In healthy ADULT males,there is zero evidence of what is being speculated on in this thread.

There is plenty of evidence, but no real scientific data......For the most part I do agree that in healthy adult males controlled, responsible, educated, and balanced use of AAS will probably have no detrimental effects on one's health, and in some cases actually improve health.......but I also don't feel that over a gram of test a week falls into the category of "balanced" use. And I can't help but feel that if you repeatedly shut down your body's production of test that gradually it gets harder and harder to return output to normal. JMOO

**anabolicbruce** · 08-24-2005, 11:24 AM

Originally Posted by Pinnacle

In healthy ADULT males.I'll repeat this.In healthy ADULT males,there is zero evidence of what is being speculated on in this thread.

Could you please site some research support claim? what makes you the end all authority on this subject? I think there is much more to be discussed on this topic!

**johnsomebody** · 08-24-2005, 11:36 AM

The problem with demanding proof of longterm suppression is that there's no medical reason to prescribe anything near the high doses we typically use so there's no medical reason to test for longterm suppression.

**Seattle Junk** · 08-24-2005, 11:39 AM

Originally Posted by Jsik98

There is plenty of evidence, but no real scientific data......For the most part I do agree that in healthy adult males controlled, responsible, educated, and balanced use of AAS will probably have no detrimental effects on one's health, and in some cases actually improve health.......but I also don't feel that over a gram of test a week falls into the category of "balanced" use. And I can't help but feel that if you repeatedly shut down your body's production of test that gradually it gets harder and harder to return output to normal. JMOO

No, in ALL cases a controlled AAS program will make a healthy adult male even healthier. My doctor even told me that. There is enough data now to prove this and the medical community is slowly starting to admit it. My doctor is 34 so he's in the younger generation of MDs.

I also talked to an endocrinoligist and he said the HPTA will bounce back with proper PCT. It's not only the PCT but also the correct diet and training during and after PCT. Some people start eating crappy and stop working out after AAS. Bad diet and zero training alone will lower your test levels. You become sedentary.

**anabolicbruce** · 08-24-2005, 11:48 AM

Originally Posted by Seattle Junk

No, in ALL cases a controlled AAS program will make a healthy adult male even healthier. My doctor even told me that. There is enough data now to prove this and the medical community is slowly starting to admit it. My doctor is 34 so he's in the younger generation of MDs.

I agree with you. The Docs at the HRT clinic I work at are all younger, and they all use various hormones to maintain health. Like you said, it must be controlled, and in moderation. Like johnsombody said, there isnt much as far as studies on superphysiological doses of synthetic hormones.

I will be consulting soon with Swale. I have gotten blood work done and will begin my next cycle this week. During my cycle Ill get bloodwork agian, and will be monitored by two different age-managment docs. Anything I learn I will be sure to share with you all, including my post cycle therapy and bloodwork.

**johnsomebody** · 08-24-2005, 12:52 PM

Originally Posted by Seattle Junk

No, in ALL cases a controlled AAS program will make a healthy adult male even healthier. My doctor even told me that. There is enough data now to prove this and the medical community is slowly starting to admit it. My doctor is 34 so he's in the younger generation of MDs.

I also talked to an endocrinoligist and he said the HPTA will bounce back with proper PCT. It's not only the PCT but also the correct diet and training during and after PCT. Some people start eating crappy and stop working out after AAS. Bad diet and zero training alone will lower your test levels. You become sedentary.

How do you define a "controlled AAS program"? If it's for a guy with naturally low test levels, it would have to be true. But is a guy doing 500mg test & 400mg deca /week for 12 weeks, who then does proper PCT considered a "controlled AAS program"?

As for me my diet and post cycle workouts have been spot on.

**Rickson** · 08-24-2005, 12:52 PM

I have looked for studies that show recovery results after individual cycles to see if there was any correlation. I couldn't find one. The closest I came was a study at the University of Iowa which only showed levels were not significantly changed from baseline measures after recovery but it was only conducted after one 14 week cycle. My personal experience is that over the years it took longer to recover but I always did return to "normal" levels. I am looking for my old bloodwork to see if there was a pattern of dropping levels but haven't found them yet. You are still well within normal range and it is normal to begin a decrease in levels starting at around 24.

**johnsomebody** · 08-24-2005, 12:55 PM

Originally Posted by Rickson

I have looked for studies that show recovery results after individual cycles to see if there was any correlation. I couldn't find one. The closest I came was a study at the University of Iowa which only showed levels were not significantly changed from baseline measures after recovery but it was only conducted after one 14 week cycle. My personal experience is that over the years it took longer to recover but I always did return to "normal" levels. I am looking for my old bloodwork to see if there was a pattern of dropping levels but haven't found them yet. You are still well within normal range and it is normal to begin a decrease in levels starting at around 24.

Well, like I said in my case at the current trend my natural test levels would be zero in six years. I don't want to find myself under 400 five mos after the next cycle. I didn't get into this to do myself any kind of longterm damage.

**anabolicbruce** · 08-24-2005, 01:48 PM

Ntpadude- What brand of tongkat did you use, and at what dosage?

**Pinnacle** · 08-24-2005, 03:32 PM

Originally Posted by Rickson

I have looked for studies that show recovery results after individual cycles to see if there was any correlation. I couldn't find one. The closest I came was a study at the University of Iowa which only showed levels were not significantly changed from baseline measures after recovery but it was only conducted after one 14 week cycle. My personal experience is that over the years it took longer to recover but I always did return to "normal" levels. I am looking for my old bloodwork to see if there was a pattern of dropping levels but haven't found them yet. You are still well within normal range and it is normal to begin a decrease in levels starting at around 24.

I saw that Iowa study as well.There are other nonconclusive studies on Pubmed.You just have to dig forever through the abstracks to find them.

**johnsomebody** · 08-24-2005, 03:38 PM

For what it's worth, here's a quote by Dan Duchaine:

'You could have two guys take 400mg of Deca and 600mg of enanthate weekly. One could recover fully in 6 weeks and the other might take 6 months to recover. I have seen this personally. I will close with two quotes. "The guys that make it to the pros are the ones that are practally immune to the side effects of steroids ." and "Once you take steroids , you will never feel like a man again" Michael Mooney'.

I can find all kinds of studies on successfully restoring HPTA post cycle (http://www.medibolics.com/ScallyVergelAstractHPGA.pdf for an example) but nothing on the effect of continued cycles longterm on T levels.

**Ntpadude** · 08-24-2005, 06:07 PM

Originally Posted by anabolicbruce

Ntpadude- What brand of tongkat did you use, and at what dosage?

I have used enzyte, red kat and LJ100 (the GNC brand). SO far the first time I did Red Kat last year I had pretty good results, the bottles I got this year might have even more potent strain of tongkat because wow is it more effective then I ever remember tongkat being before. But then again I have always been impressed everytime I use tongkat and always think I have a stronger batch then ever before. I basically take 3 red kats a day, morning, mid day and before bed. To make it clear, what I am doing this time around is red kat brand from Bio-Test.

I have also done tribex, the supposed King of testosterone boosters brand of tribulus and had nothing but very minimal and pathetic results by comparison even doing 4 and 5 grams of tribulus a day. To me tribulus is trash.

**mark956101957** · 08-24-2005, 07:48 PM

Originally Posted by Ntpadude

I have used enzyte, red kat and LJ100 (the GNC brand). SO far the first time I did Red Kat last year I had pretty good results, the bottles I got this year might have even more potent strain of tongkat because wow is it more effective then I ever remember tongkat being before. But then again I have always been impressed everytime I use tongkat and always think I have a stronger batch then ever before. I basically take 3 red kats a day, morning, mid day and before bed. To make it clear, what I am doing this time around is red kat brand from Bio-Test.

I have also done tribex, the supposed King of testosterone boosters brand of tribulus and had nothing but very minimal and pathetic results by comparison even doing 4 and 5 grams of tribulus a day. To me tribulus is trash.

How many mg would 3 red kats a day be total?

**FlyByU** · 08-24-2005, 10:56 PM

Most tongkat ali available on the net is WAY underdosed. The tongkat ali available from http://www.tongkatali.org is by far the most potent tongkat ali available, however, it is not cheap.

**johnsomebody** · 08-24-2005, 11:48 PM

Originally Posted by Ntpadude

...after cycle ended and I was still taking tongkat and I had levels test levels over 1000 and free test levels the lab had never seen before in the 180's. I was almost better off on tongkat alone then doing an injected testosterone cycle.

But I assume after going off tongkat your T levels fall again?

**Seattle Junk** · 08-25-2005, 11:29 AM

Originally Posted by Ntpadude

I have used enzyte, red kat and LJ100 (the GNC brand). SO far the first time I did Red Kat last year I had pretty good results, the bottles I got this year might have even more potent strain of tongkat because wow is it more effective then I ever remember tongkat being before. But then again I have always been impressed everytime I use tongkat and always think I have a stronger batch then ever before. I basically take 3 red kats a day, morning, mid day and before bed. To make it clear, what I am doing this time around is red kat brand from Bio-Test.

I have also done tribex, the supposed King of testosterone boosters brand of tribulus and had nothing but very minimal and pathetic results by comparison even doing 4 and 5 grams of tribulus a day. To me tribulus is trash.

Enzyte....Ha....I always think about those commercials with the huge grin on the dude and his wife's face. I actually got some of that for free and it didn't seem to do anything...What about you?

**Seattle Junk** · 08-25-2005, 11:46 AM

Originally Posted by FlyByU

Most tongkat ali available on the net is WAY underdosed. The tongkat ali available from http://www.tongkatali.org is by far the most potent tongkat ali available, however, it is not cheap.

That stuff is expensive....I need to get some though.

**MickyBlues** · 08-25-2005, 11:53 AM

I just looked up Red Kat from Biotest and there is no Tongkat Ali in the ingredients. They say it has this compound Eurycoma. Does anyone know about this. I was thinking of buying Tribix for PCT with Nolva, now I am not sure if this Red Kat is better or not. Any suggestions?

**sizematters2175** · 08-25-2005, 12:00 PM

I think its clear that alot of you guys are saying that running over 1000 mgs of test is playing with fire. But what about us guys that run light test like 250-300 mgs a week? Is this easier to recover from or could it be just as bad? I ask becuase i just started an 8 week cycle of prop and winny.

**Vegas67** · 08-25-2005, 04:34 PM

Originally Posted by sizematters2175

I think its clear that alot of you guys are saying that running over 1000 mgs of test is playing with fire. But what about us guys that run light test like 250-300 mgs a week? Is this easier to recover from or could it be just as bad? I ask becuase i just started an 8 week cycle of prop and winny.

I am pretty sure that the amount you take in a cycle is less important than the time and PCT you take in between. Guys that ram together 3 14 week cycles a year ARE playing with fire.

**IRONBULL05** · 08-25-2005, 06:48 PM

Look guys,we've all hopefully done our research about AAS use(I hope)and have weighed the pro's and con's and have obviously chosen the pro's to outweigh the con's.If you've done more than a few cycles,its too late to woory about it anyway.Just stick with proper cycles,and proper pct and everything else will be fine.
Anabolicbruce,you said you work around an hrt clinic and you see older guys with good test levels and younger guys with low levels.Do you think all the old guys never did anything and all the young guys did AAS? Its different for everybody,some have high levels and some have low levels.To think that you will ruin yours because of cycling is crazy.I recentely saw an HBO special where they interviewed a 70 yr old man whos been juicing for 50 yrs,and he had a current blood work test with him.Everything with him was NORMAL!
Relax bro,and enjoy life!
And as I said your levels will drop as you get older,so dont fret the inevitable.

**Ntpadude** · 08-25-2005, 07:02 PM

Originally Posted by johnsomebody

But I assume after going off tongkat your T levels fall again?

It slacks off but mind you the benefits are very similar to HCG as far as getting nut size and cum production back. But unlike HCG, you dont exit Tongkat with your HTPA shutdown, in fact your HTPA has been exercised and excited quite well so you only get a gradual drop back. Something about tongkat convinces your HTPA you need more testosterone , so it lowers SHBG's, increases LH and FSH and the HTPA isnt so ready to jump down to low production all that fast after you exit the tongkat.

**Ntpadude** · 08-25-2005, 07:06 PM

Originally Posted by Seattle Junk

Enzyte....Ha....I always think about those commercials with the huge grin on the dude and his wife's face. I actually got some of that for free and it didn't seem to do anything...What about you?

My opinion is, it has too much horny goat weed, maca, and yohimbe and not enough tongkat. It does have tongkat but prolly about the same as 6-0x0. Myself I would prefer a high potency product like dynadrol or red kat or that offered at tongkatali.org (which you basically do like equivalent of 15 red kats a day with the later mentioned org).

**sizematters2175** · 08-25-2005, 07:27 PM

If youve already been running cycles for a couple of years and your levels always eventually come back no matter how could they still shut down for good from a light test cycle? Also what do you people think about running small doses of clomid mid-cycle? I was told this is a good way to make sure your natural test comes back faster.

**johnsomebody** · 08-25-2005, 11:03 PM

Originally Posted by IRONBULL05

Just stick with proper cycles,and proper pct and everything else will be fine.

I've always been pretty conflicted about this. Here are some other posts from experienced bros who don't see it that way:

pumpseeker
Joined: Aug 2002
Location: Maryland

"Your natural test production will never be the same once you start juicing.... Even with all the right precautions, AAS throws your system off permanently."

Methuselah
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Michigan

"I'm 38, got all the symptoms and blood tests confirm... I'm hypogonadotropic because of juicing. I've been juicing for 3 years and doing post cycle recovery to the letter everytime.

My test level wasn't all that bad when I started. It was 640 on a scale of 320-840 being normal as I recall. I had my levels tested every 6 months post cycles. They slowly declined.

I'm now being treated at the endocriologly clinic at a renound university. So, I know that I'm getting the best information and treatment available. In the future I'm going to be careful about what I ask for... Looking back, I wish I would have stuck to protein and multi-vitamins.

I didn't exactly do super cycles. I think that most will end up shutting down their natural ability to produce test."

**Maetenloch** · 08-25-2005, 11:19 PM

One thing you can do to improve your situation is to run an additional PCT. I've read accounts on other boards of guys who had a difficult time recovering doing this and getting back to their normal range. Also I believe SWALE has some of his AAS-induced hypogonadal patients try this before going on HRT.

**johnsomebody** · 08-25-2005, 11:25 PM

Yeah, thanks. I may consult the guy.

**Ntpadude** · 08-26-2005, 09:53 AM

Originally Posted by Maetenloch

One thing you can do to improve your situation is to run an additional PCT. I've read accounts on other boards of guys who had a difficult time recovering doing this and getting back to their normal range. Also I believe SWALE has some of his AAS-induced hypogonadal patients try this before going on HRT.

Well there is this thinking that most PCT's are started approximately when the testosterone or androgenic steroids wear out. One problem is, for some traces of progestin or excessive levels of estrogen remain from the cycle when PCT starts. Because the male body has much fewer receptors for female hormones then a female has and fewer then we have for androgens, our androgens are consumed up, the feminine hormones linger and are slower to dissapate from the body. Some tumors generate progestin and total abscence of sex drive is a diagnosing symptom for these because the slightest trace of this even if not enough to cause gyno will cause HTPA inhibition. But in any case the modern thinking is sometimes its better to "delay" PCT just a bit longer then we all have been doing. We want to start PCT's at the best moment, when BOTH estrogens and androgens are very low, what we have been doing and failing on is we start PCT when androgens are low but estrogens are present.

The ONLY reason guys have suggested doing a high dose clomid therapy is to protect yourself from estrogens still present during PCT. For example the 300 mg, then 100 mg then 50 mg clomid therapy. 50 mg is the ONLY dose for activating recovery, the days you are on 300 and then 100 mg of clomid is to take advantage of its anti-estrogen properties. However doses of clomid OVER 50 mg is actually not ideal for actual HTPA stimulation and in fact can act too much like estrogen itself when restarting.

Ideal circumstances would be to "taper down" at end of ALL cycles, this includes those that do not include deca or tren and even just straight testosterone cycles. This meaning, do your normal cycle and at tail end, tack on 2 weeks of only 100 mg testosterone e or c per week. This maintains androgens while weaning your estrogens down to lower levels, then take 2 weeks off everything, then begin your clomid PCT and you should find better success. Pyramiding is old school but one part of it was based on good reasoning. Dont pyramid the start of the cycle but tapering off at the end is actually brilliant and does improve your results. Also remember pyramiding and/or tapering off was developed in the days when anti-estrogens and HTPA stimulants like clomid werent considered or used, so these methods had valid reasons for their use. In the old days your only anti-e was testosterone itself. Doses were lower so that estrogens didnt go over the top and weaning down the estrogens were mandatory in order to get any kind of recovery. Tapering down is also backed by good science and was practiced in the old days of USSR/Russian and East German olympic steroid use .

This same taper down method using HRT only final two or three doses before 2 weeks off and then going into PCT is good for all stacks, deca as well. But remember clomid will actually work better if ALL doses are 50 mg only. Its better to do 50 mg clomid WITH 10 mg nolvadex from beginning to end of PCT then to do the 300/100/50 clomid PCT and you also get less or no emotional and visual side effects. Throwing in tongkat ali anywhere in this process helps. I usually start tongkat while still ON the cycle and continue thru all of this process and do not stop until months after PCT's end.

**promiscio** · 08-26-2005, 11:07 AM

So u are saying to not do 300 mg/100mg/50mg clomid taper down? Hmmm I am nearing the end of my cycle or Test E and EQ. I may try what u suggest.

**Maetenloch** · 08-26-2005, 03:56 PM

Originally Posted by Ntpadude

The ONLY reason guys have suggested doing a high dose clomid therapy is to protect yourself from estrogens still present during PCT. For example the 300 mg, then 100 mg then 50 mg clomid therapy. 50 mg is the ONLY dose for activating recovery, the days you are on 300 and then 100 mg of clomid is to take advantage of its anti-estrogen properties. However doses of clomid OVER 50 mg is actually not ideal for actual HTPA stimulation and in fact can act too much like estrogen itself when restarting.

Clomid has a half life of 5 days, so by taking 300/100/50mg you're essentially frontloading your doses to bring your blood levels up to equilibrium levels within a few days. Even if you don't do this, at 50mg/day your blood levels will slowly rise over the course of a couple weeks to the equilibrium level anyway. Are you saying that this natural taper up is better than reaching peak levels almost immediately?