How's it going guys.

[NeeDMaSSNoW]

What up NMS (NeedMassNOW) here,
25yo Male, 180lbs 121-15% body fat, 6'1" work out consistently and constently for 3 going on 4 years now, and eat Clean 6 days out of the week... Supplements that I use are Protein, and might throw in some creatine and NO precursers from time to time..

Just out of curiosity anybody ever tried running Oral Gear only as a first cycle...
I was thinking of running a short cycle 6-8 weeks to start off with and see how my body reacts to certain AAS

I was thinking
weeks 1-8 T-Bol 40mg ED
weeks 1-8 Var 50mgs EOD( Mon, wed, fri)
weeks 6-8 Win 75mgs mgs EOD (tues, thurs, Sat)

thinking of maybe adding some D-Bol as oppose to T-Bol as my Testosterone in the cycle, as oppose to just DHT's, you think it would be prudent to just run DHT's (Var and Winny only for 8 weeks straight EOD as mentioned above) or is a Test absolutely necessary when cycling even for short periods of time?

Ohh yeah I know about the strain that will be impose on the liver with 17aa's so I'm thinking of drinking milk thistle while i'm cycling .. but again for that reason i am keeping it as a short cycle.. with what i consider low dosages..

and as for my PCT I was thinking Nolvadex for 4 weeks..

Any suggestions, thoughts, opinions? All will be greatly appreciated.

[Second2None]

var ed & win ed
scared of needles?

[Merc..]

What up NMS (NeedMassNOW) here,
25yo Male, 180lbs 121-15% body fat, 6'1" work out consistently and constently for 3 going on 4 years now, and eat Clean 6 days out of the week... Supplements that I use are Protein, and might throw in some creatine and NO precursers from time to time..

Just out of curiosity anybody ever tried running Oral Gear only as a first cycle...
I was thinking of running a short cycle 6-8 weeks to start off with and see how my body reacts to certain AAS

I was thinking
weeks 1-8 T-Bol 40mg ED
weeks 1-8 Var 50mgs EOD( Mon, wed, fri)
weeks 6-8 Win 75mgs mgs EOD (tues, thurs, Sat)

thinking of maybe adding some D-Bol as oppose to T-Bol as my Testosterone in the cycle, as oppose to just DHT's, you think it would be prudent to just run DHT's (Var and Winny only for 8 weeks straight EOD as mentioned above) or is a Test absolutely necessary when cycling even for short periods of time?

Ohh yeah I know about the strain that will be impose on the liver with 17aa's so I'm thinking of drinking milk thistle while i'm cycling .. but again for that reason i am keeping it as a short cycle.. with what i consider low dosages..

and as for my PCT I was thinking Nolvadex for 4 weeks..

Any suggestions, thoughts, opinions? All will be greatly appreciated.

3 orals ?? Dont need all that.. Pct can use some work IMO.. Please check out the profile and pct fourms . Make sure to have the proper traing and diet procols as that whats going to get ya where ya want to be not stacking more compounds ..

Merc.

[Kratos]

weeks 1-8 T-Bol 40mg ED
weeks 1-8 Var 50mgs EOD( Mon, wed, fri)
weeks 6-8 Win 75mgs mgs EOD (tues, thurs, Sat)

Can't say I like that cycle 1 bit. First of all no oral can be run eod, usually 2x a day min. Mon, wed, fri or tues,thurs, sat isn't really eod now is it, you don't have to observe the saboth with your steroids . Just inject it's so fun how can you say no?

[sonnygll]

I would suggest not taking steroids yet. Just to give you an example, I am 2 inches shorter then you, have 5 to 10 pounds less fat, still have you by 20 lbs, and am at the beginning of my first cycle.

Check out the diet and exercise forums and get some help with that. You can even post your diet and workout, and I can help you improve it. Go ahead and add some creatine too.

[JackBauer]

welcome bro...right now I'm probably the worst person to be telling you this, but just take the plunge and inject IM. its cheaper, easier on the liver, and seems to give people better results. the first shot (extreme in my case) is the worst, and after it many actually look forward to them. anyways, just my .02.... good luck withever you decide ...... BTW I could be wrong but I've only seen 'milk thistle' in pill form. also look into 'liv 52' (supposed to be the best)

[NeeDMaSSNoW]

Sonny
I eat clean 5-6 meals a day.. (alternate between fish and chicken breast with broccoli on the side) for 6 days out of a week ( 1 cheat day) , drink minimal alcohol ( 3 beers once a week sometimes every two weeks) sitting at 180, about 6'1" with about 12- 15% body fat. Supplements that I already use are Protein (all the time), creatine and NO precursers (L-Arginine) from time to time (on for 8 weeks off for 4 weeks and so on ) Thing is i cant seem to reach my goals...

My goals are to be a lean mean 200lbs (205-210 would be awesome!!!) with 8-10% body fat..

why orals only? I figured it would be easier to drink a couple of tabs and not have to go through the trouble of having to inject.. besides D-Bol, and Winny still work the same whether you inject or take a tab, why not just drink some tabs right? I mean if it is absolutely necessary i will inject , but i was just wondering if for the first cycle it would be alright to just do orals.

[Merc..]

Sonny
I eat clean 5-6 meals a day.. (alternate between fish and chicken breast with broccoli on the side) for 6 days out of a week ( 1 cheat day) , drink minimal alcohol ( 3 beers once a week sometimes every two weeks) sitting at 180, about 6'1" with about 12- 15% body fat. Supplements that I already use are Protein (all the time), creatine and NO precursers (L-Arginine) from time to time (on for 8 weeks off for 4 weeks and so on ) Thing is i cant seem to reach my goals...

My goals are to be a lean mean 200lbs (205-210 would be awesome!!!) with 8-10% body fat..

why orals only? I figured it would be easier to drink a couple of tabs and not have to go through the trouble of having to inject.. besides D-Bol, and Winny still work the same whether you inject or take a tab, why not just drink some tabs right? I mean if it is absolutely necessary i will inject , but i was just wondering if for the first cycle it would be alright to just do orals.

You dont need juice yet .. Dial your diet and training in and you will be amazed at what you can do . Probably not what you wanna hear but true none the less....


Merc.

[sonnygll]

WHAT you are eating looks ok as long as you get your carbs in the morning and post workout. But how MUCH are you eating? Try getting up around 3500 to gain weight. That should let you gain without much fat. That's going to be the main tweak for your diet since you seem to have it otherwise in order.

Now, what is your workout like? I can tell you that lifting heavy and using basic compound mass builders is the way to go. That's why they are called that after all. squat, deadlift, rows, bench, dips , chins and their variations. The other exercises are like the spices on the top.

You should be able to gain natural for a while. Get anther 10 pounds, then cut for a while to get nice and lean. Then back to bulking. At least try to get close to 200 lbs lean before taking any steroids .

Then after you get to that point you could maybe try superdrol if you want to take something oral. But other than that some kind of testosterone is best for a first cycle. dbol , var and win are things to take later, or really if 210 is your goal, not at all.

Really just workout natural for a couple years and then do 1 cycle of just test, and that should give you a lean and mean 210.

[Merc..]

WHAT you are eating looks ok as long as you get your carbs in the morning and post workout. But how MUCH are you eating? Try getting up around 3500 to gain weight. That should let you gain without much fat. That's going to be the main tweak for your diet since you seem to have it otherwise in order.

Now, what is your workout like? I can tell you that lifting heavy and using basic compound mass builders is the way to go. That's why they are called that after all. squat, deadlift, rows, bench, dips , chins and their variations. The other exercises are like the spices on the top.

You should be able to gain natural for a while. Get anther 10 pounds, then cut for a while to get nice and lean. Then back to bulking. At least try to get close to 200 lbs lean before taking any steroids .

Then after you get to that point you could maybe try superdrol if you want to take something oral. But other than that some kind of testosterone is best for a first cycle. dbol , var and win are things to take later, or really if 210 is your goal, not at all.

Really just workout natural for a couple years and then do 1 cycle of just test, and that should give you a lean and mean 210.

Diet looks ok ru serious ?? carbs to low broccoli , wheres the fat ??? ( your body must have fat intake to release fat) macros are all off . See no mention of any PWO meal . eats basically the same thing everyday. As humans our bodies adapt to routines quickly so it is best to change you diet around to keep the body kinda tricked up . A whole cheat day ?? Alot can be done in a day why not a cheat meal instead of a entire day..

[Merc..]

Bump


Merc.

[ginkobulloba]

Yeah dude, I know it's tempting. But 3, going on 4 years of training is about half the experience you need before considering getting juiced.

In 3 or 4 more years you will have gained a lot more info about your body and how it reacts to diet and training.

I would suggest getting on some natural test boosters and see what that does for you. A lot of choices out there.

[10nispro]

Merc..? Would it be wrong to suggest myogenx, alone?

Fish and chicken is great, but throw in some lean red meat once or twice a week.

[Merc..]

Merc..? Would it be wrong to suggest myogenx, alone?

Fish and chicken is great, but throw in some lean red meat once or twice a week.

Myogen-x is a Great product IMO....


It can be included in pct but I like hookers pct protocol the BEST...


Merc.

[Merc..]

Like I stated in my above post the body adapts to training and diet fairly quickly. So using the same protocols over ( diet and training)and over is not going to be a very effective way to achieve the results your after .. I like to incorporate what I call the flip on the coin approach to keep the body tricked up when dieting ( bulking or cutting)..

Merc.

[sonnygll]

Merc, it looks like he was just giving an example of 1 of his meals. That's why I said IF he is getting some carbs in the morning and post workout. Now if he is saying that he eats nothing but chicken, fish and broccoli for every single meal everyday, then yea I'd say that's pretty screwy.

So, which is it needmassnow? Do you eat those 3 things for every meal everyday, or do you eat other things too?

Then the big "IF" in my previous post was in regard to the carbs at the right times. Just an example would be to have a big heaping bowl of oatmeal for meal 1, 60 to 80 carbs or so. Post workout you want simple carbs like a weight gainer, or just put some whey in chocolate milk if you want to do it old school.
I'm not a big believer in eating a lot of carbs at other meals. Mostly just veggies. For a skinny hard gainer type maybe. But for other people, frequently going too high with the carbs and eating them at the wrong time causes a sloppy bulk where you get fat too.

I bulk with around 300 to 400 grams protein, 200 to 250 grams carbs, 150 to 200 grams fat. 3800 to 4000 calories. I got 20 pounds on you though. If I go higher with the carbs, I start getting kinda porky. I eat a lot of meat as you might have guessed.

[Merc..]

Merc, it looks like he was just giving an example of 1 of his meals. That's why I said IF he is getting some carbs in the morning and post workout. Now if he is saying that he eats nothing but chicken, fish and broccoli for every single meal everyday, then yea I'd say that's pretty screwy.

So, which is it needmassnow? Do you eat those 3 things for every meal everyday, or do you eat other things too?

Then the big "IF" in my previous post was in regard to the carbs at the right times. Just an example would be to have a big heaping bowl of oatmeal for meal 1, 60 to 80 carbs or so. Post workout you want simple carbs like a weight gainer, or just put some whey in chocolate milk if you want to do it old school.
I'm not a big believer in eating a lot of carbs at other meals. Mostly just veggies. For a skinny hard gainer type maybe. But for other people, frequently going too high with the carbs and eating them at the wrong time causes a sloppy bulk where you get fat too.

I bulk with around 300 to 400 grams protein, 200 to 250 grams carbs, 150 to 200 grams fat. 3800 to 4000 calories. I got 20 pounds on you though. If I go higher with the carbs, I start getting kinda porky. I eat a lot of meat as you might have guessed.

Depends on application ya know !!!

I mean when cutting i find it effective to get most of my carbs PWO (post work out meal ) meal..

While bulking you need alot more cals of course and will have to eat higher amounts of carbs to get your cals in for the day.

It all depends on what you specific goals are and really just experimenting to find what works best for you..

Merc.

[nap]

when it comes 2 diet every1 is different,everyones body is different. So what would work 4 me might not work 4 u,so have a play and see how your body responds. Good luck

[NeeDMaSSNoW]

Sonny,
That was an example of just one of my meals.... like I said I try to tweak it up every other day, mostly between Chicken, different types of sea food (Tilapia, Salmon, Tuna) as the main dish (broccoli is my sidedish or appetizer) ... once a week at most I also throw in some Red meat, I try to keep it with lean cuts, and I do this because of the amount of saturated fats they contain... When I wake up I down a protein shake and mix two scoops of oatmeal, when it comes to Carbs I try and limit myself to complex carbs that digest slowly and have more fiber than sugars (hence oatmeal, wheat bread, Veggies) If i get a sugar craving I head for some fruit, blue berries and Green apples... In all i do like 4-5 protein shakes a day, not including meals (morning, before workout, post workout before my post workout meal, and before going to bed) The later it is in the day the less ingrediants they contain, (the one before bed is nothing but protein, as oppose to the one in the morning that contains my oatmeal, blueberries, table spoon of olive oil ((good fats, cause I know they are necessary Merc)).. and a banana at times. Point being I think my diet is alright.. but to be honest I dont pay attention to calories i figure i'm around 2500, but i guess i should start counting and see if going up to 3000-3500 helps me out..

As for my cheat meal Merc, I do peanut butter sandwiches, no jelly (cause its nothing but sugar) one a day towards the end of the day.. On Cheat days anything goes... but even at that i am conscious of what i eat, and i tend to just stick to high protein, foods regardless of the carbs/fat content (burgers, Thick juicy steaks, mexican food, italian. whatever as long as it has ALOT of protein..

Training.... use to do a Push-Pull workout.. one day all Horizontal pushes and pulls, another Vertical Pushes and Pulls... needless to say this was getting me tone and cut but not letting me get bigger (burning too much calories as at times I even did supersets) but now I have a "body part" workout regimen(chest, back, shoulders and arms, and Lower body.... abs are done with my back and legs) try to get each body part at least once a week, maybe twice.. but i try to just hit it one time and hit it hard.. 4 sets of an exercise and my reps are 8-8-6-6.. i might go 8-6-6-6... and I do 7-8 different exercises on a given day for the body part i am working on...

All in all, i think i'm my exercises routine is good, but i guess i need to change it up.. same goes for the diet..

As for trying some Test Boosters. well i thought of that to see if it helps any, but i heard most of them are bogus anyway, so i figured why spend money on that when i can get what I know works. (i.e. gear)
Anybody know of a test Booster that will work and not be a waste of money I heard of 17-HD, MyoGenX, and T-Bomb.. but never really tried it, because its not like you are dropping $30 on 5lbs of the given supplement its more like $40-$50 for maybe 90 pills were you have to take 3, 3 times per day.. do that math, that can get pretty expensive, and if it doesn't work..hmmm no thanks.. I rather spend the money wisely on stuff that WILL work (i.e. Gear)if used correctly with the right training and diet..

BTW i want to thank all of you that have given their opinion its greatly appreciated, i like reading other people perspective, thanks again.

[sonnygll]

Yea carbs are an individual thing. Some people need a lot to make any progress, like most ectomorphs. Then there's people like me, who can get fat just looking at it.

He could always try a more typical diet. Adding more grains, yams, fruit and that sort of thing in. Those diets always seem to be more geared towards hard gainers though. A lot of people gain a bit too much fat. Especially with double digit bodyfat. Lean bulking seems to be easier when you're more cut for some reason.

Then for me, forget about it, I start looking like a powerlifter after a few weeks of that.

[ginkobulloba]

Try incorporating supersets, dropsets, and triplesets into your workouts. Log each and every workout so you know you are making progress. Then, change your routine every couple of months and try something new.

You're right, most otc test boosters are shit. I like tongkat ali and that's it. Never tried myogenx and probably never will, but some people like it. Anyway, it was just a suggestion and there are better supps out there. There is a sticky by Pinnacle out here called Idle thoughts or something like that. Look for it, read it. Lots of good information there.

You're at a good age to get juiced, no doubt about that. But nothing wrong with waiting until your really in the best position to start using it.

[sonnygll]

Sonny,
That was an example of just one of my meals.... like I said I try to tweak it up every other day, mostly between Chicken, different types of sea food (Tilapia, Salmon, Tuna) as the main dish (broccoli is my sidedish or appetizer) ... once a week at most I also throw in some Red meat, I try to keep it with lean cuts, and I do this because of the amount of saturated fats they contain... When I wake up I down a protein shake and mix two scoops of oatmeal, when it comes to Carbs I try and limit myself to complex carbs that digest slowly and have more fiber than sugars (hence oatmeal, wheat bread, Veggies) If i get a sugar craving I head for some fruit, blue berries and Green apples... In all i do like 4-5 protein shakes a day, not including meals (morning, before workout, post workout before my post workout meal, and before going to bed) The later it is in the day the less ingrediants they contain, (the one before bed is nothing but protein, as oppose to the one in the morning that contains my oatmeal, blueberries, table spoon of olive oil ((good fats, cause I know they are necessary Merc)).. and a banana at times. Point being I think my diet is alright.. but to be honest I dont pay attention to calories i figure i'm around 2500, but i guess i should start counting and see if going up to 3000-3500 helps me out..

As for my cheat meal Merc, I do peanut butter sandwiches, no jelly (cause its nothing but sugar) one a day towards the end of the day.. On Cheat days anything goes... but even at that i am conscious of what i eat, and i tend to just stick to high protein, foods regardless of the carbs/fat content (burgers, Thick juicy steaks, mexican food, italian. whatever as long as it has ALOT of protein..

Training.... use to do a Push-Pull workout.. one day all Horizontal pushes and pulls, another Vertical Pushes and Pulls... needless to say this was getting me tone and cut but not letting me get bigger (burning too much calories as at times I even did supersets) but now I have a "body part" workout regimen(chest, back, shoulders and arms, and Lower body.... abs are done with my back and legs) try to get each body part at least once a week, maybe twice.. but i try to just hit it one time and hit it hard.. 4 sets of an exercise and my reps are 8-8-6-6.. i might go 8-6-6-6... and I do 7-8 different exercises on a given day for the body part i am working on...

All in all, i think i'm my exercises routine is good, but i guess i need to change it up.. same goes for the diet..

As for trying some Test Boosters. well i thought of that to see if it helps any, but i heard most of them are bogus anyway, so i figured why spend money on that when i can get what I know works. (i.e. gear)
Anybody know of a test Booster that will work and not be a waste of money I heard of 17-HD, MyoGenX, and T-Bomb.. but never really tried it, because its not like you are dropping $30 on 5lbs of the given supplement its more like $40-$50 for maybe 90 pills were you have to take 3, 3 times per day.. do that math, that can get pretty expensive, and if it doesn't work..hmmm no thanks.. I rather spend the money wisely on stuff that WILL work (i.e. Gear)if used correctly with the right training and diet..

BTW i want to thank all of you that have given their opinion its greatly appreciated, i like reading other people perspective, thanks again.

Don't worry about fat. It's all based on BS junk science studies, where they had the desired results in mind, and cherry picked the only 3 groups that supported their desired result and threw out the rest of the data. Only 10% of lipids come from diet anyway. Insulin is responsible for cholesterol synthesis, so genetics and processed junk food are the main culprits.

So eat more red meat. It's a great complete source of protein and it's damn tasty too.

You really need to get your calories up to at least 3300. Eating 2500 calories a day is definitely the problem. You can't gain anything if that's all you're eating.

If you like vertical/horizontal try this.

Day 1 flat bench paired with bent over row, then squat paired with calf raises.
day 2 incline bench with chins, then Romanian deadlift paired with a few isolation exercises of your choice.

Then take a day or 2 off and do it again. Maybe do different exercises the second half of the week. Or change the protocol. Like 85% for 5 reps the first half and then 70 to 75% for 10 reps or so the second half.

So you work the whole body 2 days in a row. BUT you hit it from completely different angles so you focus on totally different muscles. 6 sets is usually good for the major lifts and calves. Then just a set or 2 for the isolation, keep your week spots in mind when choosing those.

One of days, try to add in a couple sets for inner thighs, like wide stance squat, or sumo deadlift with all 25 lbs plates, or lift from a platform. It's good for getting a nice shape to the thigh.