“YOUR FIRST CYCLE” – Courtsey of Phreezer

[T-MOS]

Um, weren't you going to explain to me how a single ester cycle is superior to running Sust? I'm still waiting on that profound insight.

Pretty simple, a single ester is MUCH easier to keep blood levels stable for those of us that care to do that. Releasing hormone at ONE specific timing instead of several different ones

Multi esters releasing test at several different times into your system is harder to keep blood levels stable due to releasing at so many different timings

FOR THOSE THAT DO CARE, this has been shown, by experience and member logs to reduce side effects which I would believe MOST people would be happy about .

[Juice Authority]

Pretty simple, a single ester is MUCH easier to keep blood levels stable for those of us that care to do that. Releasing hormone at ONE specific timing instead of several different ones

Multi esters releasing test at several different times into your system is harder to keep blood levels stable due to releasing at so many different timings

FOR THOSE THAT DO CARE, this has been shown, by experience and member logs to reduce side effects which I would believe MOST people would be happy about .

I was really hoping seriousmass would chime in and put me in my place but you let him off the hook. I'll address your points...

I get much more water retention from a single ester AND estrogen related sides than I do from Sust. And let's not forget the higher rate of aromatization with a single ester versus the shorter esters inherent in Sust. The bottom line with Sust versus a single ester is the following (my experience):

1) less bloat
2) less estrogen related sides and
3) better gains on a mg for mg basis = more bang for your buck.

Ultimately it depends on the person. My best advice to anyone (if I were to give advice) would be to try 3 different cycles using Sust, Test E and Cyp as the base and decide for himself which works best for him. What works best for Branch Warren may not work well for others; trial and error is important in this game. However that seems to be something completely disregarding on this board in favor of the populus opinion.

Now having said all that I prefer a single ester but not because of a more stable blood concentration level. It just stacks better with other compounds.

[D7M]

Now having said all that I prefer a single ester but not because of a more stable blood concentration level. It just stacks better with other compounds.

Curiously, why would you say a single ester test stacks better than sust?

[Juice Authority]

Curiously, why would you say a single ester test stacks better than sust?

Experience. When I run Test E with Deca (my usual stack) and an oral I generally get better overall results. I like the bloat. Estrogen is your friend, not your enemy, that is if its managed properly.

[WARMachine]

I would be interested to see Wars views.......

Nothing to say...Everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

[phreezer]

This is MY thread. I posted and wrote this first cycle FAQ. Not Juice Authority. He's simply doing a cut and paste.. Don't attack him.. If you are so upset and offended by this. I mod at *** and at ****. You can come there and attack me or you can even hit me up through email. I'm not hard to get a hold of.

Now to the heart of the matter. Many of you are being over analytical.. Test is test.. In real world application keeping your blood levels consistant is easily maintaind with bi weekly injections of sustanon , enanthate , cyp.. whatever.. with the exception of the 50mg of short acting esters in sust it's basicly got the same half lives as enanthate or cyp. In real world application there is little difference between the two as test is test.

And why is deca crazy for a 2nd or even first cycle? WTF? Deca test is about the oldest most common and most effective stack out there. Certainly not outrageous or ridiculous to suggest using it as a first or second cycle. Originally I wrote this about five years ago and it's been a sticky at **** for as many years. It's gotten a lot of good results for a lot of people and I've received a lot of positive feedback from people from it over the years.

You can dog it if you want. You have the right to your opinon. I know it's effective I've seen it work many times.

I've been around a long time. Some of the guys here have known me for a decade... I've known the owner of this site for many years and I've always been treated with respect here. Some of the members here even know who I really am.

I actually know a little something about this. I'm a 307lb professional strongman. I didn't get that way by not knowing my way around a weight room or by not knowing how to put a cycle together.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. And that's fine. If you don't like it.. Don't use it. But it is effective and it's worked quite well for lots of people.

The original cycle I wrote actually did have nolva and clomid in it but through personal experience I've had much better luck with arimidex and running HCG regularly throughout... so I changed it because of better success this way.

In the end there's a big god damned difference between theory and real world application. And at the end of the day.. Test is test. And if you think Deca is some serious hardcore anabolic reserved for only the most experienced of AAS users you really have a lot of learning to do.

I suppose now is where you flame me and try and tear apart a basic how to for newbees that's literally gotten great results for better than half a decade.. so feel free. Again, everyone has a right to their opinion. No hard feelings on my part.

Brian, if you happen to read this thread. I hope you're doing well and everything is going great!

Take care all,

P

[T-MOS]

the ONLY comment I would have to the above is the deca for a first cycle

and the ONLY reason is that with all these YOUNG kids jumping on steroids we TRY to minimize their risk as we know they are gonna do it anyway no matter what we say

I for one , preach that a first cycle should be test only, JUST so that they can LEARN how their body reacts to it. I tell them that if they throw two or three compounds in there then how will they know which compounds is doing what to their body both good or bad. is it Deca giving them bloat or is it the test? acne, or any of the other sides.....

Personally I prefer ONE ester to 4 or 5 but thats just me. and I believe Deca is a perfect addition to the second cycle

[gymnerd]

I see your points JA and Phreezer and I agree personaly. I also understand what T is trying to do give the most responsible advise possible but, there are alot of parrots that attack everyone over here when they do not have the real world experiance like you guys do. I am open minded and take everthing with a grain of salt I enjoy reading JA personaly he debates his points and never attacks anyone right or wrong nothing wrong with that IMO.

[phreezer]

Personaly, I don't use deca that often anymore and when I do it's in low dosages just to keep the joints lubricated. It's a wonderful compound. And the dosage I suggested was pretty low.

I've seen a lot of crazy suggestions of gear over the years. Guys taking a gram and a half of test. 900mg of deca and throwing in winstrol , eq etc into the mix doing the shotgun approach. That's why I gave three very simple. very low dose cycles to get guys experience.

Personaly, I recommend test only cycles for first cycles too, but I don't think 300mg of deca is anything that's going to cause any problems. And as a strongman and former PL. I LOVE DBOL ! If I could eat 50mg ed and not have my liver fall out I would do so year round.. lol. I think it stacks great with anything because it adds strength and size both so well when combined with a strong androgenic anabolic .

Also to note, I think Test should be the foundation of EVERY cycle. Not just something to stack with something else. Whatever else you take IMO is stacked with test. Never the other way around.

I'd never advocate 600mg of deca with 250mg of test.. I would however recommend the other way around.

I'm no bodybuilder but have friends who are.. I lean toward size and power over asthetics and symetrics

But the basic principles for AAS use remain the same. Just depending on what your goals are determines what AAS you may use.. although Test, Tren and dbol is good for everybody who trains no matter what your competitive sport... but that's just getting us farther away from the original topic.

[Satva1100]

OLM SUCKS!!!!! and the ban you if you give any real feedback about their sponsors.

[T-MOS]

Personaly, I don't use deca that often anymore and when I do it's in low dosages just to keep the joints lubricated. It's a wonderful compound. And the dosage I suggested was pretty low.

I've seen a lot of crazy suggestions of gear over the years. Guys taking a gram and a half of test. 900mg of deca and throwing in winstrol , eq etc into the mix doing the shotgun approach. That's why I gave three very simple. very low dose cycles to get guys experience.

Personaly, I recommend test only cycles for first cycles too, but I don't think 300mg of deca is anything that's going to cause any problems. And as a strongman and former PL. I LOVE DBOL ! If I could eat 50mg ed and not have my liver fall out I would do so year round.. lol. I think it stacks great with anything because it adds strength and size both so well when combined with a strong androgenic anabolic .

Also to note, I think Test should be the foundation of EVERY cycle. Not just something to stack with something else. Whatever else you take IMO is stacked with test. Never the other way around.

I'd never advocate 600mg of deca with 250mg of test.. I would however recommend the other way around.

I'm no bodybuilder but have friends who are.. I lean toward size and power over asthetics and symetrics

But the basic principles for AAS use remain the same. Just depending on what your goals are determines what AAS you may use.. although Test, Tren and dbol is good for everybody who trains no matter what your competitive sport... but that's just getting us farther away from the original topic.

Have you tried Injectable Dbol Yet???

[phreezer]

No, but I have a buddy who competes in the IFBB that loves it.. I may give it a go this fall..

[phreezer]

OLM SUCKS!!!!! and the ban you if you give any real feedback about their sponsors.

you're entitled to your opinion. That's why we have a ratings section. To many sources were giving fake negative feedback and too many source lackies were trying to drum up business for their favorite sources by leaving fake negative feedback.

So now we have a multiple user name identity tripper and we removed feedback other than a 1 through 5 experience stating whether you did not like the product, the service, the turn around, you would use again or not use again.. then we let guys vote.

It removed a lot of the fake shit that was going around.

OLM isn't for everyone so if you don't like it that's fine too. Brian runs a great board here.

[ninesecz]

different strokes for different folks! I personally do not like Sust! I dont like hooting more than E3D either... Maybe thats why! Hmm

[Juice Authority]

OLM SUCKS!!!!! and the ban you if you give any real feedback about their sponsors.

OLM bans people for blatantly breaking the rules, excessively flaming other members which seems to be tolerable here, and spreading unfounded rumors and accusations (i.e. labeling a sponsor a scammer with nothing to back it up). Bashing of other boards like you did in your post above is also frowned on at OLM but obviously acceptable here.

It also clearly states in the rules that OLM doesn't condone anyone to sell or advertise items that originate in a country where they are illegal to sell and or receive.

[Juice Authority]

Have you tried Injectable Dbol Yet???

I have and loved it. This was the first cycle where I went with the injectable version over the oral. The estrogen related sides weren't as pronounced and I had no appetite suppression. I stacked with oil based TNE made some incredible gains in a very short timeframe.

[T-MOS]

For the record, we aren't really even allowed to mention other boards so bashing is frowned on here as well.

I am sure when admin sees this they will delete the appropriate threads

no offense to anyone here !!

[*RAGE*]

I love everyone...

[T-MOS]

I love everyone...

yea we know, isnt' that how you caught aids in the first place???

[Swifto]

This is MY thread. I posted and wrote this first cycle FAQ. Not Juice Authority. He's simply doing a cut and paste.. Don't attack him.. If you are so upset and offended by this. I mod at *** and at ****. You can come there and attack me or you can even hit me up through email. I'm not hard to get a hold of.

Now to the heart of the matter. Many of you are being over analytical.. Test is test.. In real world application keeping your blood levels consistant is easily maintaind with bi weekly injections of sustanon , enanthate , cyp.. whatever.. with the exception of the 50mg of short acting esters in sust it's basicly got the same half lives as enanthate or cyp. In real world application there is little difference between the two as test is test.

And why is deca crazy for a 2nd or even first cycle? WTF? Deca test is about the oldest most common and most effective stack out there. Certainly not outrageous or ridiculous to suggest using it as a first or second cycle. Originally I wrote this about five years ago and it's been a sticky at **** for as many years. It's gotten a lot of good results for a lot of people and I've received a lot of positive feedback from people from it over the years.

You can dog it if you want. You have the right to your opinon. I know it's effective I've seen it work many times.

I've been around a long time. Some of the guys here have known me for a decade... I've known the owner of this site for many years and I've always been treated with respect here. Some of the members here even know who I really am.

I actually know a little something about this. I'm a 307lb professional strongman. I didn't get that way by not knowing my way around a weight room or by not knowing how to put a cycle together.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. And that's fine. If you don't like it.. Don't use it. But it is effective and it's worked quite well for lots of people.

The original cycle I wrote actually did have nolva and clomid in it but through personal experience I've had much better luck with arimidex and running HCG regularly throughout... so I changed it because of better success this way.

In the end there's a big god damned difference between theory and real world application. And at the end of the day.. Test is test. And if you think Deca is some serious hardcore anabolic reserved for only the most experienced of AAS users you really have a lot of learning to do.

I suppose now is where you flame me and try and tear apart a basic how to for newbees that's literally gotten great results for better than half a decade.. so feel free. Again, everyone has a right to their opinion. No hard feelings on my part.

Brian, if you happen to read this thread. I hope you're doing well and everything is going great!

Take care all,

P

Agreed.

I think too many look at the fact that Sust is multi-estered and "NEEDS to be injected ED or EOD" bullshit. The amount of short estered Test in Sust is small and I have many many friends that have used it for a first cycle. Injecting 1x per week and 2x, with little to no sides at all. Its used here in the UK alot actually.

[T-MOS]

Agreed.

I think too many look at the fact that Sust is multi-estered and "NEEDS to be injected ED or EOD" bullshit. The amount of short estered Test in Sust is small and I have many many friends that have used it for a first cycle. Injecting 1x per week and 2x, with little to no sides at all. Its used here in the UK alot actually.

fair enough..I am done preaching EOD then for sust......but I still wont' use it....lolol

[Swifto]

fair enough..I am done preaching EOD then for sust......but I still wont' use it....lolol

Its a mixed bunch with Sust I think. But the amount of active hormone thats short estered is small. Some prefer ED/EOD, others (who I've met personally) prefer 1x and 2x per week.

It depends on the person again, like so much we do with androgens.

[jbm]

anymore ideas? from the experts?

[Free Will]

anymore ideas? from the experts?

yes...2 eggs contain 11 grms of protein so if you eat 6 eggs that 33 grms of protein !!! geez it hurts being this good hahaha

[T-MOS]

yes...2 eggs contain 11 grms of protein so if you eat 6 eggs that 33 grms of protein !!! geez it hurts being this good hahaha

wouldn't that depend on the size of the egg?? Personally I only buy the JUMBO eggs.....

[DS21]

Agreed.

I think too many look at the fact that Sust is multi-estered and "NEEDS to be injected ED or EOD" bullshit. The amount of short estered Test in Sust is small and I have many many friends that have used it for a first cycle. Injecting 1x per week and 2x, with little to no sides at all. Its used here in the UK alot actually.

I'm actually having a hard time agreeing with you guys on this one. We all have our opinion on what is an okay way to inject different esters, but there is a proper way to inject each one. Sure you can inject sust once a week a be fine, but in your opinion would it be better/wiser to inject it ed or eod? I personally believe the "safest" way to inject sust would be ed or eod due to the prop in it, wheather it is a small amount or not. If someone doesn't want to inject frequently then they should use test E, and that is the advise I would give because it is the safest (less side effects) way to use each compound, right? I've always thought of this board as a way to educate yourself on the proper way to use AAS, not a way to half ass a cycle. I would think coming from a MOD, you would as well?

And where I'm at, tren only cycle are the thing to do, but it doesn't mean that I'm going to do it.

[Free Will]

wouldn't that depend on the size of the egg?? Personally I only buy the JUMBO eggs.....

lol...yea maybe but us Aussies get the average variety , no mutant eggs here so on average theres about 5.5 grm of protein per egg here lol.....

[scribbs12]

God there is actually so much wrong with this thread.. it would take me all afternoon to comb through it and pick out the errors. I'd definitely take this post with a grain of salt...

I have no idea why you are promoting deca for a 2nd cycle... you shouldn't need anything more then just Test-E or C for a 2nd cycle.. maybe d-bol. There is no point complicating things. (also deca for 8 weeks.. wtf??? thats a VERY short cycle of deca, it should be run 10 - 12 weeks imo)

HCG 1 week into PCT also... that's dumb. it's a suppressive compound.

Honestly OP I think you need to hit the drawingboard again.. this was a big miss..

imo you can take anything as your first cycle.. doesnt matter what it is.. as long as you know what your doing and educated on it.. 2nd cycle of deca isnt bad either if you know what your doing.... its when you start taking at 100mg only once a week... when its stupid... but if you know know what you're doing .. and got all your shit together and pct etc...do tren and test who cares...

[kojak_x]

you guys are deep.

[jbm]

kelljones is turning this into eggs...

[Free Will]

bahaha well you aksed the experts opinion and i ofered mine on eggs lol

[Swifto]

I'm actually having a hard time agreeing with you guys on this one. We all have our opinion on what is an okay way to inject different esters, but there is a proper way to inject each one. Sure you can inject sust once a week a be fine, but in your opinion would it be better/wiser to inject it ed or eod? I personally believe the "safest" way to inject sust would be ed or eod due to the prop in it, wheather it is a small amount or not. If someone doesn't want to inject frequently then they should use test E, and that is the advise I would give because it is the safest (less side effects) way to use each compound, right? I've always thought of this board as a way to educate yourself on the proper way to use AAS, not a way to half ass a cycle. I would think coming from a MOD, you would as well?

And where I'm at, tren only cycle are the thing to do, but it doesn't mean that I'm going to do it.

The optimal way to inject any estered hormone is ED. Enanthate , Cypionate whatever...The best way to attain the most stable blood plasma concentrations is too inject a long ester ED. Thats what everyone should advise then? So it depends on how far you wish to go with it.

There is 30mg of Prop in Sust. Do you really think thats going to cause unwanted sides etc...In users that DONT inject ED or EOD. I suggest 2x per week, not 1x per week. I'm yet to actually use it, but I have friends that use it, some year round. They have experimented with many protocols and tell me 2x per week is fine.

As already stated, there is less of a conversion to estrogen and DHT with short esters, so that can mean less sides. You also get more active hormone per 100mg due to the ester weight. More for your money.

Sust is currently at the top of my list to try and I probably will in the coming months. I'll be shooting it 2x per week with Arimidex or Aromasin .

[Kale]

God I love these threads on the use of sust. The actual recommended dosage for Sust is once every three to four weeks. One of its main uses is gender reassignment thats why T-MOS likes it so much :-). As Swifto has mentioned there is only about 30mg of short estered test in Sust, so who cares. Twice a week is more than enough and even once a week is OK IMO. I have done id ED and weekly and I cannot tell the difference. I dont use sust anymore because its a pain in the ass literally but apart from that

[Twist]

I think that it is great advise to tell newbs to only use test as their first cycle. I used sustanon and dbol for my first cycle and the sides were so bad and recovery was very very hard. took like 6 months even nolvadex , clomid etc. and I lost all of my gains/ hard ons. I had no idea what compound gave me such negative effects. after that I ran an enanthate and eq cycle and everything was fine. so it turns out deca was a bad choice. had I run a test only cycle before this I would have known that the deca was not for me and discontinued it. But as a newb I thought that this is just how it is for everyone. This is a good example of why you only run test first = to see how your body responds AND RECOVERS to this relatively simple compound.
SUSTANON - Test is test. I like prop because it is easy to control blood levels. I think long esters should be shot more often but 2x a week is ok (not optimal). why buy a long estered compound and then shoot it like a short one? defeats the whole purpose of a long ester. just go with prop. as for bloat on a long ester idk but I only use prop now and maybe will try some cyp or enan later. If I only used sustanon and not deca on my first cycle then maybe I would have more to say about bloat on long esters.
WHY USE PROPIONATE - I can predict my blood levels and inject everyday
WHY USE LONG ESTERS - cost about the same as prop for me so it would save me a lot of $, and PIN LESS

I also like juiceauthority's ideas on shocking the body with different levels. However, I do not believe this should be done with the testosterone . shock the body with the other compounds, and that is still a maybe. this might prevent gains from tapering off toward the end of the cycle(like mini cruise and blasts with deca, tren , eq, winst, etc...) good idea, but would not want to try it unless I am on trt. seems like a good way to accidentally get put on trt

[DS21]

The optimal way to inject any estered hormone is ED. Enanthate , Cypionate whatever...The best way to attain the most stable blood plasma concentrations is too inject a long ester ED. Thats what everyone should advise then? So it depends on how far you wish to go with it.

There is 30mg of Prop in Sust. Do you really think thats going to cause unwanted sides etc...In users that DONT inject ED or EOD. I suggest 2x per week, not 1x per week. I'm yet to actually use it, but I have friends that use it, some year round. They have experimented with many protocols and tell me 2x per week is fine.

As already stated, there is less of a conversion to estrogen and DHT with short esters, so that can mean less sides. You also get more active hormone per 100mg due to the ester weight. More for your money.

Sust is currently at the top of my list to try and I probably will in the coming months. I'll be shooting it 2x per week with Arimidex or Aromasin.

I'm not trying to start an argument with you, and I do agree with you when you say Sust can be injected 2x per week and be fine. But I would also advise that person to have an AI on hand due to the higher likelihood of estrogen proplems, compared to single ester compounds. I also agree with you on injecting ED, and that is why I only use short esters ED.

The only part I don't understand on your above statement is the fact you are informing me that short esters are better all around, but then you are saying you will use Sust in your upcoming cycle? No matter what, I wish you much success on your upcoming cycle!

[Swifto]

I'm not trying to start an argument with you, and I do agree with you when you say Sust can be injected 2x per week and be fine. But I would also advise that person to have an AI on hand due to the higher likelihood of estrogen proplems, compared to single ester compounds. I also agree with you on injecting ED, and that is why I only use short esters ED.

The only part I don't understand on your above statement is the fact you are informing me that short esters are better all around, but then you are saying you will use Sust in your upcoming cycle? No matter what, I wish you much success on your upcoming cycle!

I think sides are easier to control, yes.

Test Prop is my favourite Test ester. Injected ED or EOD. I didnt notice a difference in the two.

You get more active hormone per 100mg. There is less of a conversion to estrogen and DHT with short esters, compared to long esters. Which means sides are easier to control.

The active hormone can be excreted by the body faster incase you run into problems too.

They kick in faster. Why wait 6-8 weeks until Enanthate kicks in and run a cycle that gives its best gains for 6'ish weeks to week 12-14? When you can run an 8-10 week cycle of Test Prop where it becomes active after the first week?

Its personal opinoin, but I prefer Test Prop, compared to Enanthate.

[NS]

My focus changes throughout the year to keep things interesting. AAS is an integral part of maintaining strength and lean muscle when the focus changes to cardio intensive exercises (MMA, running, biking kickboxing, BJJ and the like). My average HR is in the high 180s when training in certain activities. At that level you're burning everything (proteins, carbs and fats).

Are you worried about the long term effects on your heart of this type of training coupled with AAS?

[LickAlotOfPuss]

this sounds way to complicated, i'