What is the down side to starting using steroids at a low weight?

**Freefalling** · 07-07-2009, 02:12 PM

Originally Posted by T-MOS

I suggest if you want ANY more help, you lose the condescending attitude !!!

im very sorry that you took it that way. I didnt mean to be rude at all. The tone just appears to be that way in writing.

I was just trying to get my question across. Its just extremly frustrating when you ask a question and you get a "seemingly" unrelated answer. Especially when its a question thats been bugging me for more than a year now. Maybe you guys are answering it...but i honestly dont see the answer.

**Freefalling** · 07-07-2009, 02:14 PM

Originally Posted by RedBaron

The funny thing is this ... if you do eat 6000 calories a day and merely maintain your current 165-175, let's turn the question around. What the heck makes you think that if that number of calories is merely maintaining that weight that it would suddenly maintain a higher weight? Sorry to break the news, but the body doesn't work that way.

Im not currently eating 6000 calories a day. Im on a 4500 calorie diet.

Originally Posted by RedBaron

If you can't gain muscle or weight eating and training the way you have set forth as your routine, then there is NO WAY you are going to hold onto any gains that a cycle might provide.

i cant gain muscle...not weight.

I can easily gain fat. But my problem is gaining MUSCLE. Thats why my macro is high protein, low carb (%45 protein, %35 carb, %20 fat)... Because if i increase the carbs, ill just be gaining fat, not muscle. And i cant really increase the protein more than it is now because as you already know (25 eggs in one sitting), im already eating more protein than i actually need...about 3+ grams of protein per lb of body weight, when its not supposed to be more than 2 grams per lb of body weight.

So you see where my problem is. You guys are saying eat more, increase your calories... But increase which calories...protein or carb??

If i increase the protein more than it is now...than im definately going to be doing more harm than good.

And if i increase the carbs...then i gain fat ONLY.

Thats how i came to the conclusion that i must have reached my max genetic potential.

**fitfreak** · 07-07-2009, 02:15 PM

I don't see any reason why you wouldn't be able to keep the majority of your gains as long as diet, training, pct, etc. is on point. All I'm saying is there is a reason you're not making any progress. Everyone plateaus every now and then, but you've been training for 10 years! Something is obviously missing. Why wouldn't you try to figure what that is before beginning a cycle? This has nothing to do with keeping your gains. This has to do with gaining 2 lbs of muscle or 15 lbs of muscle during your cycle. Steroids are fine for you to use but they are not the missing link here.

So I can try to help, could you answer my previous question above?

**fitfreak** · 07-07-2009, 02:19 PM

Originally Posted by Freefalling

Im not currently eating 6000 calories a day. Im on a 4500 calorie diet.

i cant gain muscle...not weight.

I can easily gain fat. But my problem is gaining MUSCLE. Thats why my macro is high protein, low carb (%45 protein, %35 carb, %20 fat)... Because if i increase the carbs, ill just be gaining fat, not muscle. And i cant really increase the protein more than it is now because as you already know (25 eggs in one sitting), im already eating more protein than i actually need...about 3+ grams of protein per lb of body weight, when its not supposed to be more than 2 grams per lb of body weight.

So you see where my problem is. You guys are saying eat more, increase your calories... But increase which calories...protein or carb??

If i increase the protein more than it is now...than im definately going to be doing more harm than good.

And if i increase the carbs...then i gain fat ONLY.

Thats how i came to the conclusion that i must have reached my max genetic potential.

The thing is you have to give your body a reason to grow muscle. If you can gain fat, you can gain muscle. Lifting twice a week and changing your routine every 3 months is not giving your body a good reason to put those extra calories to work for you (by adding muscle).

***T-MOS*** · 07-07-2009, 02:29 PM

Originally Posted by Freefalling

im very sorry that you took it that way. I didnt mean to be rude at all. The tone just appears to be that way in writing.

I was just trying to get my question across. Its just extremly frustrating when you ask a question and you get a "seemingly" unrelated answer. Especially when its a question thats been bugging me for more than a year now. Maybe you guys are answering it...but i honestly dont see the answer.

Understood, and I guess its frustrating to us as well, because we see how our answers are very pertinent to your questions but we can't seem to get our vision through to you in text as well....

Red Baron said it best.

and to be honest with you, what he said is VERY true. I am 5'11" and currently 260 lbs.... I am on a very LOW dose cycle currently and even when I was bulking, I let the food do the work and not the steroids . I was still only using 500 mgs of test along with 400 mgs of deca ....and I have been cycling for 10 years now average of 2 cycles a year, so the gear is just an AID

bodybuilding is a lifestyle, even if you are JUST trying to get to your natural potential and maintain that.....this is a MARATHON, not a sprint. you don't just magically get to a desired weight then stop and stay there.....you have to constantly maintain it or you will lose it or gain more fat than you desire.....

but I thought my answer about your tendons, joints, and connective tissue being damaged by jumping on steroids before your body is ready for them was a pretty good answer to your original question

***T-MOS*** · 07-07-2009, 02:34 PM

Originally Posted by Freefalling

Im not currently eating 6000 calories a day. Im on a 4500 calorie diet.

i cant gain muscle...not weight.

I can easily gain fat. But my problem is gaining MUSCLE. Thats why my macro is high protein, low carb (%45 protein, %35 carb, %20 fat)... Because if i increase the carbs, ill just be gaining fat, not muscle. And i cant really increase the protein more than it is now because as you already know (25 eggs in one sitting), im already eating more protein than i actually need...about 3+ grams of protein per lb of body weight, when its not supposed to be more than 2 grams per lb of body weight.

So you see where my problem is. You guys are saying eat more, increase your calories... But increase which calories...protein or carb??

If i increase the protein more than it is now...than im definately going to be doing more harm than good.

And if i increase the carbs...then i gain fat ONLY.

Thats how i came to the conclusion that i must have reached my max genetic potential.

its not just a matter of number of calories, its the Types of proteins, types of carbs, amounts of carbs and the timing of all the food

25 eggs in one sitting is NOT the right way to take in protein. the body can only process so much protein at a time....that could be WHY you are gaining fat and not muscle ...what the body can't use in a three hour period, it will then have to make a choice what to do with the leftover calories no matter what they are from. It can choose to store it as fat, or expel it as waste...but that depends on how YOU have your diet and timing of eating set up...

again, maybe the problem IS medical and you should see an Endo doc.

**fitfreak** · 07-07-2009, 02:42 PM

Originally Posted by T-MOS

its not just a matter of number of calories, its the Types of proteins, types of carbs, amounts of carbs and the timing of all the food

25 eggs in one sitting is NOT the right way to take in protein. the body can only process so much protein at a time....that could be WHY you are gaining fat and not muscle ...what the body can't use in a three hour period, it will then have to make a choice what to do with the leftover calories no matter what they are from. It can choose to store it as fat, or expel it as waste...but that depends on how YOU have your diet and timing of eating set up...

again, maybe the problem IS medical and you should see an Endo doc.

Timing is what I was getting at. The two most important meals of the day: breakfast and postworkout. I'm interested in finding out what the issue is with not gaining muscle. I think we could tweak your diet and training and see what happens before you think about seeing a doctor.

**Freefalling** · 07-07-2009, 02:55 PM

Originally Posted by T-MOS

its not just a matter of number of calories, its the Types of proteins, types of carbs, amounts of carbs and the timing of all the food

25 eggs in one sitting is NOT the right way to take in protein. the body can only process so much protein at a time....that could be WHY you are gaining fat and not muscle ...what the body can't use in a three hour period, it will then have to make a choice what to do with the leftover calories no matter what they are from. It can choose to store it as fat, or expel it as waste...but that depends on how YOU have your diet and timing of eating set up...

again, maybe the problem IS medical and you should see an Endo doc.

ive already posted the type of protein, type of carbs... Just go a few posts back and you will see it.

As for the timing.... Only the first 3 meals contain complex carbs...(e.g. Complex carbs: oatmeal, %100 whole wheat bread, bran bread, sweet potatoes, brown rice, %100 whole wheat pasta)...

the last 3 meals contain simple or fiberous carbs (e.g. Vegetables) ...

Mind you, i work out after my 3rd meal, which is the last meal that contains complex carbs, its also the meal that contains the most complex carbs...as i will need the energy from the carbs for my workout.

And yeah...pre workout: protein shake. Post workout: protein shake + glutamine.

**chuckt12345** · 07-07-2009, 02:58 PM

how old are you free?

**fitfreak** · 07-07-2009, 03:02 PM

Originally Posted by Freefalling

ive already posted the type of protein, type of carbs... Just go a few posts back and you will see it.

As for the timing.... Only the first 3 meals contain complex carbs...(e.g. Complex carbs: oatmeal, %100 whole wheat bread, bran bread, sweet potatoes, brown rice, %100 whole wheat pasta)...

the last 3 meals contain simple or fiberous carbs (e.g. Vegetables) ...

Mind you, i work out after my 3rd meal, which is the last meal that contains complex carbs, its also the meal that contains the most complex carbs...as i will need the energy from the carbs for my workout.

And yeah...pre workout: protein shake. Post workout: protein shake + glutamine.

What does your post workout shake consist of? Is it 100% whey, what brand? Does it contain any carbs? This is very important.

**Freefalling** · 07-07-2009, 03:09 PM

Originally Posted by fitfreak

What does your post workout shake consist of? Is it 100% whey, what brand? Does it contain any carbs? This is very important.

its ON %100 whey protein

NS · 07-07-2009, 03:11 PM

Originally Posted by Freefalling

Considering i've been bodybuilding for 10 years. And know how to diet like a pro. And im 26. And my weight is 175lb @ %10 bf. And i know all there is to be known about steroids................

What would be the down side to starting using steroids now?...before increasing my weight naturaly.

This statement and this question are in conflict

**fitfreak** · 07-07-2009, 03:13 PM

Originally Posted by Freefalling

its ON %100 whey protein

I've got to go. I have some good info. for you. I'll post tonight or tom. morning.

**JinNtonic** · 07-07-2009, 03:25 PM

I think he has AIDS. Thats the only way he is not growing.

**Twist** · 07-07-2009, 05:35 PM

don't count your shakes in your daily count. I have seen very little evidence that shakes do what people say they do and I don't respond to them for shit. eat real food, even and especially after workout. more diverse foods. Eggs are to simple imo to put on weight with. Use eggs as just part of your meal, not the main course. put some steak in your life.
watch these. mainly the ones with milos:

http://thefitshow.tv/index.php?optio...=50&Itemid=128

http://thefitshow.tv/index.php?optio...=51&Itemid=129

http://thefitshow.tv/index.php?optio...=52&Itemid=130

http://thefitshow.tv/index.php?optio...=56&Itemid=131

1 What do your muscles look like? post pics.
2 are they striated?
3 if you stopped working out what would happen?
4 what does your family look like?
5 how long did it take for you to hit this plateau?
6 do you throw up when you workout?
7 any medical issues in the family? (ex diabetes, celiacs etc)
8 how well does your stomach respond to milk?
9 what do you do that causes you to burn calories other than workout?
10 do you do cardio?
11 what splits have you tried?
12 Are you willing to take steroids for the rest of your life?
13 do you want kids?

If you eat 6k cal a day and do not gain any muscle WHILE WORKING OUT CORRECTLY then you are not getting the correct nutrients. This can mean you need different foods (just add some) or your body does not utilize the nutrients correctly. If the latter then steroids are the answer but it is temporary and will not last when use is discontinued.

I have seen no evidence stating that if you cycle before your natural potential you will not be able to gain after the cycle, or it will be harder. Actually I have seen evidence that it is the opposite way around (I am well aware I am about to be flamed). There was a big discussion on this board or some other board about this and the majority of the people agreed that if you reach your natural potential, then use steroids , once use is discontinued you will slowly (some quicker than others) deflate back to your natural potential. This seems to be because if your body was capable of sustaining a higher mass without the use of steroids then (with the proper diet and training) it would have. I find that people who hold their gains very well after a cycle did not already reach their natural potential. One thing that helps hold the gains after the cycle for people who have reached their natural potential is hgh. I would strongly recommend this for your case as it will actually create new cells rather than making cells you already have get bigger. there are so many things in the body that will hinder gains and anabolism and promote catabolism that there is no way to get all of them tested unless you have millions of dollars and a ton of time.
If you have the money and the resources go for growth.

***T-MOS*** · 07-07-2009, 05:44 PM

How to Grow 101

Step one: Buy a Cow

Step two: Eat said Cow

Step three: Repeat

nothing makes me grow better then eating Steak everyday when I am bulking !!!!

**Ronnie Rowland** · 07-07-2009, 07:19 PM

How old are you and how long have you been training?

**RedBaron** · 07-07-2009, 07:58 PM

He had said at the onset he is 26 years old, been training for 10 years, eating 4500 calories ... more than sufficient protein, and has stated he has good knowledge of diet and workout, but after all of that is still stuck at 175 pounds at 6 ft plus.

That is why everyone is thinking something else is amiss ... medical issue or something else of the sort ... or the training and diet aren't accurately stated.

**Freefalling** · 07-08-2009, 12:06 AM

Its not no medical issue. Cz if it was then i would have problems gaining weight in general. I dont have a problem gaining weight. FAT WEIGHT!
My problem is gaining MUSCLE WEIGHT.

**Twist** · 07-08-2009, 12:35 AM

Originally Posted by Freefalling

Its not no medical issue. Cz if it was then i would have problems gaining weight in general. I dont have a problem gaining weight. FAT WEIGHT!
My problem is gaining MUSCLE WEIGHT.

not true at all. you may have high myostatin levels, low test levels, many other medical conditions.
can you answer my numbered questions above??????

**Immortal Soldier** · 07-08-2009, 12:52 AM

Well to be far its pretty hard to gain pure muscle and no fat without the use of AAS, so stop making such a big deal about fat gain. When you give your body that much calories not only are muscle cells going to grow, so are fat cells.

If you wanna go up in weight you gotta deal with the fact you are going to gain fat, pure and simple. That's what bulking is, muscle/fat/water gain.

You can't be 235lbs ****** without at some point having a little more fat than you would like on your frame.

**Freefalling** · 07-08-2009, 03:48 AM

Originally Posted by Immortal Soldier

Well to be far its pretty hard to gain pure muscle and no fat without the use of AAS, so stop making such a big deal about fat gain. When you give your body that much calories not only are muscle cells going to grow, so are fat cells.

If you wanna go up in weight you gotta deal with the fact you are going to gain fat, pure and simple. That's what bulking is, muscle/fat/water gain.

You can't be 235lbs ****** without at some point having a little more fat than you would like on your frame.

thats why im trying to CLEAN BULK
If i gain fat along with muscle then, eventually, when i have enough muscle, ill have to start cutting... Now when i start cutting, ill start loosing muscle. So then when i reach the desired bf...ill have lost most of the muscle i had gained when i was bulking. So now im back where ive started!!

Now you might say, when i have gained enough muscle...there are certain exercises and routine i could follow that will enable me to burn fat while loosing minimal muscle. So if thats the case... Then there is definately exercises and routine that will enable me to gain muscle without gaining fat. The latter is what im looking for. So far i have tried everything and nothing has worked...thats why im considering steroids .

**Free Will** · 07-08-2009, 03:58 AM

man im 6`3 and ive been training for two years , i am now currently 102kg 226lbs i think , i was 82 kg 2 years ago before is started training and have put on 20kg of muscle in that time so i think you have really bad genetics if you are still 175lbs after 10 years of training .....

**Freefalling** · 07-08-2009, 04:09 AM

1 What do your muscles look like? post pics.

Will do soon. Dont have none now.

2 are they striated?

What? ...

3 if you stopped working out what would happen?

I will begin to look softer...but after some time. Just like everyone else.

4 what does your family look like?

Humans. Average.

5 how long did it take for you to hit this plateau?

10 years

6 do you throw up when you workout?

No

7 any medical issues in the family? (ex diabetes, celiacs etc)

No

8 how well does your stomach respond to milk?

Pretty well...i drink a glass of milk almost with every meal.

9 what do you do that causes you to burn calories other than workout?

Nothing.

10 do you do cardio?

Used to...but not anymore. Used to run 1 hour a day...6 days a week. Thats when i was cutting.

11 what splits have you tried?

12 Are you willing to take steroids for the rest of your life?

Rest of my life?! I dont know about that. Not sure.

13 do you want kids?

Yes

**Twist** · 07-08-2009, 01:36 PM

I am in your same position here. I live in socal so I am unwilling to give up my abs to get bigger. I guess if you want it then you will have to sacrifice something. I will fat bulk soon. as for now as soon as my body hits 11% bf I cut for three days and then my abs come back out.

1 need pics.
2 striated looks like you can see each individual section of the muscle. like all three heads on the delt.
3 like would you get fat, or would you just lose weight? For example if I kept up the same diet but just didn't workout, I would lose weight not gain weight. An indication of super skinny genetics.
4 is everybody in your family super skinny? your genetics came from somewhere just trying to find out what you are working with. Doesn't guarantee anything but if everyone in your family is meso and you are ecto we probably have an issue.
5 You said you have been working out for 10 years. if you just hit your plateau then you should give it time.
6 maybe you are not working out hard enough if you don't throw up. I think that you have to put mental strain on your body not just your muscles. watch milos sarcev's shoulder and leg workout.
7 Good!
8 also good. if you suddenly become intolerant then that is a big clue
9 sounds like genetics then
10 maybe do 20 - 40 minutes of cardio seperate from your workout days. this keeps me lean and does not hurt my muscle. I don't recommend empty stomach for you and I don't recommend after workout cardio.
11 ?
12 I am in the same boat as you pretty much. Be aware that if you are dedicated as much as you say you are then realize this; once you start getting the gains you have been striving so hard for (you WILL get them with steroid use ) it will be impossible to give them up. you will end up watching them fade away slowly after your cycle. they will fade away.
13 steroids are a gamble and there is very little known about them. realize that they might have effects on your life that you could not have foreseen.

**Andro9** · 07-08-2009, 09:06 PM

honestly i started at age 20 and was pretty small now i am 26 yrs old 6'2 250 @ 11%BF, its the biggest ive ever been, no regrets

**Twist** · 07-08-2009, 10:28 PM

I don't think most people regret it. if they are dedicated and it is a life choice then there is no problem. LOL the punishment for using steroids is that you have to use them for the rest of your life and the doctor gives you human grade and your insurance covers it and the blood tests. and you can never get in trouble for owning it. Imagine if an alcoholic had this situation
"you drank at too young an age and you drank too much... So now I am going to have to give you great quality alcohol at a cheap price for the rest of your life. I hope you learned your lesson!"

**Immortal Soldier** · 07-08-2009, 10:38 PM

Originally Posted by Freefalling

thats why im trying to CLEAN BULK
If i gain fat along with muscle then, eventually, when i have enough muscle, ill have to start cutting... Now when i start cutting, ill start loosing muscle. So then when i reach the desired bf...ill have lost most of the muscle i had gained when i was bulking. So now im back where ive started!!

Now you might say, when i have gained enough muscle...there are certain exercises and routine i could follow that will enable me to burn fat while loosing minimal muscle. So if thats the case... Then there is definately exercises and routine that will enable me to gain muscle without gaining fat. The latter is what im looking for. So far i have tried everything and nothing has worked...thats why im considering steroids.

This is the dumbest logic I have ever read.

No wonder you can't gain muscle you are so worried about gaining fat that you probably don't even feed yourself accurately.

I have never I repeat never let me repeat again NEVER ran a cutter in my life and my bf% is below 10%. You don't have to cut and run on a treadmill like a hamster to lose fat. Don't get me wrong, cutting and cardio is good, but I don't do it because I don't feel the need to. If your bulking diets are clean enough and workouts are intense enough you are going to lose it over time, now steroids can help so can fat burners, but diet and intensity of workouts is key. Too many times I see dudes who take their sweet ass time doing everything and in the mean time I am pumping out 32 sets on one body part in a little over an hour while they walk around the gym like they are in a UFO.