No sign of Test recovery after 8 wks of PCT

[Roidbeginner]

My blood test came back and my FSH and LH were very low <0.1pg/ml while my Test level is half of the normal level.

nonetheless, my estradiol and progesterone and prolactin all went down to normal levels

HDL is low

MY PCT:
wk1-3: arimidiex 0.5mg + novaldex 25mg
wk1-8: 25mg Novaldex /day
wk1-8: 20mg proviron

should I extend further? I wonder if anyone check how long it take for them to recover and confirm by blood tests?

[redz]

What cycle did you run? I dont like your pct either.

[Phate]

My blood test came back and my FSH and LH were very low <0.1pg/ml while my Test level is half of the normal level.

nonetheless, my estradiol and progesterone and prolactin all went down to normal levels

HDL is low

MY PCT:
wk1-3: arimidiex 0.5mg + novaldex 25mg
wk1-8: 25mg Novaldex /day
wk1-8: 20mg proviron

should I extend further? I wonder if anyone check how long it take for them to recover and confirm by blood tests?

arimidex is not good in pct and arimidex and nolva should not be taken at the same time(loss of efficiency)

what cycle?

[Dancer]

Proviron = no HPTA recovery

Explain this

[Dancer]

arimidex is not good in pct and arimidex and nolva should not be taken at the same time(loss of efficiency)

what cycle?

Phate,

Talk to me about the dex

[Phate]

Phate,

Talk to me about the dex

what about it? if i remember correctly arimidex decreases nolva efficiency(or vice versa)

i'm gonna get swifto over here, he's much better with pct than i am

[TITANIUM]

Clomid and Nova.

HCG to get things started.

4 weeks, maybe 5 of PCT.

Not sure of the cycle you ran.

PCT was screwy, not run correctly.

Weak PCT...................................

[Dancer]

what about it? if i remember correctly arimidex decreases nolva efficiency(or vice versa)

i'm gonna get swifto over here, he's much better with pct than i am

I agree using it with nolv is a negative... But, alone if I recall correctly there is a 56% increase in free test levels once estrogen levels drop, the negative rebound effect...

[peachfuzz]

Nolva reduces the arimidex efficiency

proviron has been shown to be suppressive in some individuals.

id start over with a basic nolva/clomid post cycle for a few weeks then retest.

[ninesecz]

Yeh I think you did a poor PCT ! Where did you get this regimine? most run PCT for 4 weeks with a lrger dose for each week. 8 weeks is a little long

[Swifto]

Tamoxifen will reduce plasma concentrations of steroidal AI's by 35-40%. I have just searched for 20mins for the study and cant find it. I read it 3 weeks ago.

Tamox or Clomid, there both VERY effective at raising endogenous testosterone levels . Toremifene too. In a recent study dated Apr 2009, Tamox came out on top, comparing Tore/Tamox/Rolax. Although the Tore dose was low (60mg/ED 6 weeks) for PCT IMHO.

To my knowledge, I havent seen a SERM raise endogenous testosterone levels as much as Clomid (146%) in 6-8 weeks at 25mg/ED. Thats why I advocate it with either Tore or Tamox.

HCG should be used "on cycle" to maintain testicular function and in an attempt to avoid testicular dysfunction when using androgens that cause ganadotrophin cessation.

[Dancer]

Tamoxifen will reduce plasma concentrations of steroidal AI's by 35-40%. I have just searched for 20mins for the study and cant find it. I read it 3 weeks ago.

Tamox or Clomid, there both VERY effective at raising endogenous testosterone levels . Toremifene too. In a recent study dated Apr 2009, Tamox came out on top, comparing Tore/Tamox/Rolax. Although the Tore dose was low (60mg/ED 6 weeks) for PCT IMHO.

To my knowledge, I havent seen a SERM raise endogenous testosterone levels as much as Clomid (146%) in 6-8 weeks at 25mg/ED. Thats why I advocate it with either Tore or Tamox.

HCG should be used "on cycle" to maintain testicular function and in an attempt to avoid testicular dysfunction when using androgens that cause ganadotrophin cessation.

+2 but, Swift, address proviron ... Its debated a little too much for all these blood tests that are out.

[peachfuzz]

Tamoxifen will reduce plasma concentrations of steroidal AI's by 35-40%. I have just searched for 20mins for the study and cant find it. I read it 3 weeks ago.

Tamox or Clomid, there both VERY effective at raising endogenous testosterone levels . Toremifene too. In a recent study dated Apr 2009, Tamox came out on top, comparing Tore/Tamox/Rolax. Although the Tore dose was low (60mg/ED 6 weeks) for PCT IMHO.

To my knowledge, I havent seen a SERM raise endogenous testosterone levels as much as Clomid (146%) in 6-8 weeks at 25mg/ED. Thats why I advocate it with either Tore or Tamox.

HCG should be used "on cycle" to maintain testicular function and in an attempt to avoid testicular dysfunction when using androgens that cause ganadotrophin cessation.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11850211

[Dancer]

I have yet to see one study that proviron usage lead to full or partial-full HPTA recovery...

I got a few on suppression

[Swifto]

+2 but, Swift, address proviron... Its debated a little too much for all these blood tests that are out.

I think the jury is still out on Proviron for PCT...

Although there are studies showing its "not suppressive to the HPTA" at doses upto 100-150mg/ED for an extended peroid, using it during PCT (hypogondal) is a little different. The studies are done on eugondal males, which show no HPTA suppression, but I dont think one can assume this can be transfered to using it during PCT (although I have an article on it).

There is a study on it reducing ganodotrophins in males though. Ranging from 15-65%. If your one of the unlucky one's, that not good during PCT!

Your using Proviron to either:

1) Increase labido

2) Lower levels of estrogen and decrease negative feedback

3) Lower SHBG

I think (now) there maybe better options for the above.

Tribulas can be used to boost labido and adding DHEA will help also.

An AI can be used for estorgenic negative feedback, but this can be controlled by using an AI when on cycle.

There are supplements that can lower SHBG and increase Free T that seem to be effective. SHBG is needed to synthesis endogenous testosterone anyway. Lowering it is useful, but not paramount IMHO.

Proviron isnt going to help preserve your gains and aid in reducing muscle loss either. Its rapidly metabolized in muscle by 3-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase.

I use Proviron during PCT and have never witnessed it hindering HPTA restoration (Yes, I have done BW). It seems to work for some and not others. I get a massive increase in labdio from it at as low as 25mg/ED, it reduces SHBG too and is cheap.

Some like it, others dont. The key here, just like all androgens is to experiment and see what works for YOU.

[Swifto]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11850211

Thanks.

[Dancer]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11792932

PURPOSE: Testosterone -to-estradiol ratio levels in infertile men improve during treatment with the aromatase inhibitor, testolactone, and resulting changes in semen parameters. We evaluated the effect of anastrozole, a more selective aromatase inhibitor, on the hormonal and semen profiles of infertile men with abnormal baseline testosterone-to-estradiol ratios. MATERIALS AND METHODS: A total of 140 subfertile men with abnormal testosterone-to-estradiol ratios were treated with 100 to 200 mg. testolactone daily or 1 mg. anastrozole daily. Changes in testosterone, estradiol, testosterone-to-estradiol ratios and semen parameters were evaluated during therapy. The effect of obesity, diagnosis of the Klinefelter syndrome, and presence of varicocele and/or history of varicocele repair on treatment results was studied. RESULTS: Men treated with testolactone had an increase in testosterone-to-estradiol ratios during therapy (mean plus or minus standard error of the mean 5.3 +/- 0.2 versus 12.4 +/- 1.1, p <0.001). This change was confirmed in subgroups of men with the Klinefelter syndrome, a history of varicocele repair and those with varicocele. A total of 12 oligospermic men had semen analysis before and during testolactone treatment with an increase in sperm concentration (5.5 versus 11.2 million sperm per ml., p <0.01), motility (14.7% versus 21.0%, p <0.05), morphology (6.5% versus 12.8%, p = 0.05), and motility index (606.3 versus 1685.2 million motile sperm per ejaculate, respectively, p <0.05) appreciated. During anastrozole treatment, similar changes in the testosterone-to-estradiol ratios were seen (7.2 +/- 0.3 versus 18.1 +/- 1.0, respectively, p <0.001). This improvement of hormonal parameters was noted for all subgroups except those patients with the Klinefelter syndrome. A total of 25 oligospermic men with semen analysis before and during anastrozole treatment had an increase in semen volume (2.9 versus 3.5 ml., p <0.05), sperm concentration (5.5 versus 15.6 million sperm per ml., p <0.001) and motility index (832.8 versus 2930.8 million motile sperm per ejaculate, respectively, p <0.005). These changes were similar to those observed in men treated with testolactone. No significant difference in serum testosterone levels during treatment with testolactone and anastrozole was observed. However, the anastrozole treatment group did have a statistically better improvement of serum estradiol concentration and testosterone-to-estradiol ratios (p <0.001). CONCLUSIONS: Men who are infertile with a low serum testosterone-to-estradiol ratio can be treated with an aromatase inhibitor. With treatment, an increase in testosterone-to-estradiol ratio occurred in association with increased semen parameters. Anastrozole and testolactone have similar effects on hormonal profiles and semen analysis. Anastrazole appears to be at least as effective as testolactone for treating men with abnormal testosterone-to-estradiol ratios, except for the subset with the Klinefelter syndrome, who appeared to be more effectively treated with testolactone.

[Dancer]

/\ Thats a study that actually compares Dex to testolactone a antineoplastic agent... and compares actual fertility markers such as sperm count and semen.

[Swifto]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11792932

PURPOSE: Testosterone -to-estradiol ratio levels in infertile men improve during treatment with the aromatase inhibitor, testolactone, and resulting changes in semen parameters. We evaluated the effect of anastrozole, a more selective aromatase inhibitor, on the hormonal and semen profiles of infertile men with abnormal baseline testosterone-to-estradiol ratios. MATERIALS AND METHODS: A total of 140 subfertile men with abnormal testosterone-to-estradiol ratios were treated with 100 to 200 mg. testolactone daily or 1 mg. anastrozole daily. Changes in testosterone, estradiol, testosterone-to-estradiol ratios and semen parameters were evaluated during therapy. The effect of obesity, diagnosis of the Klinefelter syndrome, and presence of varicocele and/or history of varicocele repair on treatment results was studied. RESULTS: Men treated with testolactone had an increase in testosterone-to-estradiol ratios during therapy (mean plus or minus standard error of the mean 5.3 +/- 0.2 versus 12.4 +/- 1.1, p <0.001). This change was confirmed in subgroups of men with the Klinefelter syndrome, a history of varicocele repair and those with varicocele. A total of 12 oligospermic men had semen analysis before and during testolactone treatment with an increase in sperm concentration (5.5 versus 11.2 million sperm per ml., p <0.01), motility (14.7% versus 21.0%, p <0.05), morphology (6.5% versus 12.8%, p = 0.05), and motility index (606.3 versus 1685.2 million motile sperm per ejaculate, respectively, p <0.05) appreciated. During anastrozole treatment, similar changes in the testosterone-to-estradiol ratios were seen (7.2 +/- 0.3 versus 18.1 +/- 1.0, respectively, p <0.001). This improvement of hormonal parameters was noted for all subgroups except those patients with the Klinefelter syndrome. A total of 25 oligospermic men with semen analysis before and during anastrozole treatment had an increase in semen volume (2.9 versus 3.5 ml., p <0.05), sperm concentration (5.5 versus 15.6 million sperm per ml., p <0.001) and motility index (832.8 versus 2930.8 million motile sperm per ejaculate, respectively, p <0.005). These changes were similar to those observed in men treated with testolactone. No significant difference in serum testosterone levels during treatment with testolactone and anastrozole was observed. However, the anastrozole treatment group did have a statistically better improvement of serum estradiol concentration and testosterone-to-estradiol ratios (p <0.001). CONCLUSIONS: Men who are infertile with a low serum testosterone-to-estradiol ratio can be treated with an aromatase inhibitor. With treatment, an increase in testosterone-to-estradiol ratio occurred in association with increased semen parameters. Anastrozole and testolactone have similar effects on hormonal profiles and semen analysis. Anastrazole appears to be at least as effective as testolactone for treating men with abnormal testosterone-to-estradiol ratios, except for the subset with the Klinefelter syndrome, who appeared to be more effectively treated with testolactone.

I dont advocate using an AI during PCT, unless one hasnt been using when on cycle. But even then, estorgen levels will begin to decline as serum T is low.

[Dancer]

I dont advocate using an AI during PCT, unless one hasnt been using when on cycle. But even then, estorgen levels will begin to decline as serum T is low.

That point is not as relevant, IMHO, as to induce the negative feedback mechanism to induce production of free testosterone .

The Whole point of PCT to most is to restore fertility , ergo HPTA.

If you can achieve:

A total of 25 oligospermic men with semen analysis before and during anastrozole treatment had an increase in semen volume (2.9 versus 3.5 ml., p <0.05), sperm concentration (5.5 versus 15.6 million sperm per ml., p <0.001) and motility index

Your PCT will be more successful

[Swifto]

That point is not as relevant, IMHO, as to induce the negative feedback mechanism to induce production of free testosterone .

The Whole point of PCT to most is to restore fertility , ergo HPTA.

If you can achieve:

A total of 25 oligospermic men with semen analysis before and during anastrozole treatment had an increase in semen volume (2.9 versus 3.5 ml., p <0.05), sperm concentration (5.5 versus 15.6 million sperm per ml., p <0.001) and motility index

Your PCT will be more successful

You cant translate "semen analysis, semen volume and sperm concentration" to LH, FSH and T. How much does the study (full paper) state LH, FSH and T levels were raised?

If you have controlled estrogen, an AI isnt needed during PCT. SERMs are far more effective that AI at raising endogenous T. Why do you want to further reduce E when its already low (due to low aromotase) during PCT? Answer: You dont and also risk more side effects.

I'm not having this debate again, sorry. Had it with Ross 3-4 weeks back.

Stick to using an AI during PCT. Good luck with that.

[Roidbeginner]

thanks all for your response.

Previously, I was on 500mg Test e/wk + 400mg Deca /wk

My first blood test during cycle:

high estradiol
high prolactin

arimidex was taken during and into the early PCT as I have signs of gyno, although proviron is controversial, I find them taking with novaldex it remove gyno and prevent loss.

anyway, i going to modfiy my PCT to the foolowing, is this a better version

new PCT:
wk 1-4: 25mg Novaldex + clomid

with AI, will estrogen rebound occur when I cease to take novaldex?

is 4 four weeks of PCT sufficient?

[fozy]

DECA ...........there is the culprit.