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Thread: can u gain lean muscle rather than bulk then cut ?

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    joe_19 is offline Junior Member
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    Lightbulb can u gain lean muscle rather than bulk then cut ?

    is there a way you can gain lean muscle off gear , ive done ..
    dbol deca test proviron in 2 cycles , i currently feel in good shape,

    i always see bulking cycles and cutting cycles

    is there a way of gaining lean muscle and cuttin using 1 or a few compounds ?
    a friend took anadrol and got big and ripped but im not to big on orals,

    any info would be good , ive never seen a question like mine on this forum
    and ive been a member for about 3 years lol ,

  2. #2
    bjpennnn's Avatar
    bjpennnn is offline American Psycho
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    Can you post your stats

  3. #3
    joe_19 is offline Junior Member
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    height 5.10
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    look a bit more than i weigh.....

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    pebble is offline Associate Member
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    It is possible to gain muscle while on a hypocaloric diet (under eating) because muscle protein synthesis and lipolysis (and Fatty acid oxidation) are very different metabolic pathways. But this is not easy to accomplish and really not an optimal method for 'trained individuals'.

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    21 and two cycles already? Be careful, you could be messing yourself up.

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    Eazy20's Avatar
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    Too young. But to answer ONE of your questions. It's obviously possible, but you make it 10x harder on yourself. It's much easier and faster to bulk, gain some fat along with that bulky muscle, and cut it down later.

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    marcus300's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by joe_19 View Post
    21
    male
    2 cycles
    bf unknown
    height 5.10
    weight 11.3 stone
    look a bit more than i weigh.....
    You have a major problem if your only 11.5 stone after 2 cycles, forget steroids they will create more problems for someone like you in the long run. You need to learn how to eat to build tissue and construct a cardiop program what will drop bf while maintaining muscle tissue.

    Head over to the diet section and post your diet and go to the workout section and do some reading and research but please forget steroids.
    *Anyone wanting a source check from a willing vet/mod must first acquire 100 posts and 45 days of activity*

    “Carrying a set to a point where you are forced to utilize 100 percent of your momentary ability is the single most important factor in increasing size and strength"--- Mike Mentzer

    “one set to failure is all that is required to stimulate an increase in strength and size – with no number of lesser sets having the same effect” – Mike Mentzer

  8. #8
    FireGuy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eazy20 View Post
    Too young. But to answer ONE of your questions. It's obviously possible, but you make it 10x harder on yourself. It's much easier and faster to bulk, gain some fat along with that bulky muscle, and cut it down later.
    Not true at all. You do not need to add bodyfat to add muscle tissue.

  9. #9
    OneCrazyM0f0 is offline New Member
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    I have no experience with steroids but I can answer your first question.

    A couple of others have touched on it already, but yes it's possible to gain lean muscle without gaining fat, but it is not ideal.

    When you are training for muscular hypertrophy, you want to optimize your body's ability to get bigger/add new tissue. In order to do this effectively, you need to create a caloric surplus (you need to eat more calories than your body requires to maintain your current weight, usually to the tune of at least +500 calories but this varies from person to person). When you eat properly, your body should almost always be in an anabolic state, with the exception of the early morning hours when you are sleeping.

    If you carefully plan and follow your diet, you can bulk without gaining too much fat, but to optimize your body's ability to grow you need to eat plenty. Don't worry about gaining a little extra fat as long as you're adding lean muscle to go along with it.

    Best of luck.

  10. #10
    Eazy20's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FireGuy View Post
    Not true at all. You do not need to add bodyfat to add muscle tissue.
    I never said you need to? I said it's much faster and easier to add muscle tissue by bulking up then cutting the fat down? It's way easier to get up from 180-230 and cut down to 200 10%bf then to try and lean bulk your way to 200 10%bf...
    Last edited by Eazy20; 03-17-2011 at 08:47 AM.

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    FireGuy's Avatar
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    ^^Every ounce of bodyfat you gain is due to excessing calories. This is after the body has repaired itself (muscle growth) and provided for daily energy requirements. If you are adding bodyfat it's cause you are eating too much, end of story.

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    FireGuy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eazy20 View Post
    I never said you need to? I said it's much faster and easier to add muscle tissue by bulking up then cutting the fat down? It's way easier to get up from 180-230 and cut down to 200 then to try and lean bulk your way to 200...
    I completely disagree, and I speak from experience of doing it both ways.

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    Eazy20's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FireGuy View Post
    I completely disagree, and I speak from experience of doing it both ways.
    As I disagree with you. If you're lean bulking you don't know if you are eating exactly as much you need to maximize your growth 100% you could end up 500cal short/day or even 1,000. You couldn't be 100% sure. Ever seen someone who's bulked and then cut vs. lean bulked the whole way? The guy who bulked up tends to look bigger. Hence why BBs don't lean bulk in the offseason. I've personally done it both ways and I found that for me bulking first then cutting is more beneficial, but as we all know, everyone has what works best for them in this game.

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    FireGuy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eazy20 View Post
    As I disagree with you. If you're lean bulking you don't know if you are eating exactly as much you need Yes I do, it's called dialing in your diet.to maximize your growth 100% you could end up 500cal short/day or even 1,000. You couldn't be 100% sure.True, but doing weekly bodycomps I can be 100% sure that if I am gaining bodyfat I am eating more calories than my body requires after all muscle growth has been accounted for. This is why I weigh all my food, count all my calories and do weekly body comps. Ever seen someone who's bulked and then cut vs. lean bulked the whole way? The guy who bulked up tends to look bigger.It is because he is bigger, FATTER! Hence why BBs don't lean bulk in the offseason.Who says bodybuilder dont lean bulk? I know quite a few and I would say the vast majority do exactly that. I've personally done it both ways and I found that for me bulking first then cutting is more beneficial, but as we all know, everyone has what works best for them in this game.I would like to see your data you have comparing your body compostions at different weights using each method
    I am curious, do you actually compete? Not that it's a requirement to form an opinion on this topic but I think you would have more insight. Everyone whom I have ever seen bulk up grossly overestimates the amount of muscle they put on and underestimates the amount of fat they gained. I have bulked twice in my life, both right after a contest. Both times I gained exactly 50lbs and both times when I dieted down for my next show a year later I was two lbs heavier. Gain 50, lose 48. Countless other times I have stayed lean throughout the year and have averaged a 3-4lbs increase in competition weight going this route. I have also prepped several competitive bodybuilders and have seen the exact same type of scenario played out time after time.

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    MBMETC's Avatar
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    FG im finishing my cut soon and would love to be mentored by you to gain lbm your exp is a valuable asset..

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    Eazy20's Avatar
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    No, I do not compete, nor do I really have the desire to do so. Getting lean enough to compete makes me feel sick...If I get any leaner than in my avy (which I have before), I feel unhealthy and sick...and feeling good is more important to me than being chizzled to the bone haha. Unfortunately, I do not have any exact data figures from my previous experience lean bulking because I have only done it once and it was a couple years ago. However, I will say that the average Joe doesn't have their diet dialed perfectly in like a competitive body builder such as yourself to get just the right amount of calories/day to maximize his growth (because MULTIPLE variables throughout EVERY DAY effect this) which in the end would result in taking a longer time. I'll say it again, I don't doubt the fact that it can be done, because I know it obviously can which I stated in my original post, but for the typical lifter, it would be much more difficult to do so to make optimal gains.

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    OneCrazyM0f0 is offline New Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by FireGuy View Post
    Both times I gained exactly 50lbs and both times when I dieted down for my next show a year later I was two lbs heavier. Gain 50, lose 48. Countless other times I have stayed lean throughout the year and have averaged a 3-4lbs increase in competition weight going this route. I have also prepped several competitive bodybuilders and have seen the exact same type of scenario played out time after time.
    Not trying to stoke the fire here, but in this scenario I would question your dieting/cutting methods rather than your bulking methods. It sounds like you were losing quite a bit of muscle tissue during your cut phase.

    Also another point I'll mention - you obviously compete as a bodybuilder, therefore it's safe to assume you have quite a bit more discipline when it comes to what you eat. While it's entirely possible to add some nice lean muscle without adding fat, it's always more optimal in terms of pure muscle gain to create a caloric surplus, which will almost definitely add some body fat. I would never recommend a diet as strict and calculated as yours to a 21 year old guy looking to add some muscle. He will get frustrated and fail. As would most of us.

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    FireGuy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OneCrazyM0f0 View Post
    Not trying to stoke the fire here, but in this scenario I would question your dieting/cutting methods rather than your bulking methods. It sounds like you were losing quite a bit of muscle tissue during your cut phase.
    Also another point I'll mention - you obviously compete as a bodybuilder, therefore it's safe to assume you have quite a bit more discipline when it comes to what you eat. While it's entirely possible to add some nice lean muscle without adding fat, it's always more optimal in terms of pure muscle gain to create a caloric surplus, which will almost definitely add some body fat. I would never recommend a diet as strict and calculated as yours to a 21 year old guy looking to add some muscle. He will get frustrated and fail. As would most of us.
    This actually reinforces my point. When you add all that bodyfat you have to diet harder and longer to get back to the same state of leaness you were previously which causes you to lose much of whatever muscle you added to begin with. Yes, going from 188 competition weight to 238 off season I more than likely gained more than 2lbs of lean mass BUT....now I have to diet way harder and way longer to get back into contest shape. Now my last show starting at 190 and then staying in the 212-216 range I didnt have to diet as hard or as long, I did not have to do nearly as much cardio and was able to step on stage at 195. Plus, I looked lean and had a 6pack year round, I was healthier and I saved my skins elasticity as well. <--Trust me when you get older this will become very important to everyone and those who stay in shape year round will reap the benefits.

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    FireGuy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MBMETC View Post
    FG im finishing my cut soon and would love to be mentored by you to gain lbm your exp is a valuable asset..
    PM me anytime or start a a new thread in the diet section and I will be sure and post in it.

  20. #20
    OneCrazyM0f0 is offline New Member
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    Maybe you could try chopping it up into a few bulk/cut cycles. I know some guys that will do 4-6 weeks of bulking, then do a "mini-cut" for about 3 weeks, then rinse - repeat.

    You may keep more of your gains this way, and you wouldn't have to diet for so long and risk losing all of your newly gained lean muscle.

    (Given your experience you may have already tried this, but again, you being a competing bodybuilder who measures all of his food portions, etc.. are the exception rather than the rule. Most people simply won't discipline themselves as much)

    Edit: And I fully realize that it probably looks ridiculous for a "newbie" with 8 total posts to be giving you advice. Please don't take it as disrespect because it's not. I don't have experience with steroids or bodybuilding, but I have tons of experience with making weight for fights while adding new strength and muscle between fights. My advice was more directed at the original poster and others who may be in his shoes.
    Last edited by OneCrazyM0f0; 03-17-2011 at 10:08 AM.

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    Tigershark's Avatar
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    Damn dude, you are going to screw yourself up.

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    FireGuy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OneCrazyM0f0 View Post
    Maybe you could try chopping it up into a few bulk/cut cycles. I know some guys that will do 4-6 weeks of bulking, then do a "mini-cut" for about 3 weeks, then rinse - repeat.

    You may keep more of your gains this way, and you wouldn't have to diet for so long and risk losing all of your newly gained lean muscle.

    (Given your experience you may have already tried this, but again, you being a competing bodybuilder who measures all of his food portions, etc.. are the exception rather than the rule. Most people simply won't discipline themselves as much)

    Edit: And I fully realize that it probably looks ridiculous for a "newbie" with 8 total posts to be giving you advice. Please don't take it as disrespect because it's not. I don't have experience with steroids or bodybuilding, but I have tons of experience with making weight for fights while adding new strength and muscle between fights. My advice was more directed at the original poster and others who may be in his shoes.
    I tend to disregard post count when I read someones statements and you didnt come off disrespectful at all. The best threads on the boards are ones where we can actually debate an issue and present new ideas.

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    nelly is offline Junior Member
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    Not that I have a ton of experience but, I have found that for me being 40 its harder to drop bf. So I try to gain lean muscle even though it does take longer. I know its probably in some part my diet, but realize that working tons of hours affects in some way how much you can eat.

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    Liftinghard101 is offline New Member
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    Hello

    Quote Originally Posted by FireGuy View Post
    Not true at all. You do not need to add bodyfat to add muscle tissue.
    Hey fireguy just wondering if you would want to help me with a question since it looks like you have a good background of knowledge.

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    felk87 is offline Banned
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    Quote Originally Posted by FireGuy

    I tend to disregard post count when I read someones statements and you didnt come off disrespectful at all. The best threads on the boards are ones where we can actually debate an issue and present new ideas.
    I feel that your logic makes a lot more sense than all....before stepping into aas....i would do natty bulk then cutting cycles, and i felt that i would loose a lot more muscle opposed to eating just the right amount to grow new tissue. I think its all about finding a balance between the amount of p/f/c your body needs to grow and to burn those extra calories to keep the fat to a minimum. Good thread tho.

  26. #26
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    I spent much of last year leaning out (started with 36% BF after six years out of the gym with an injury) and was able to gain muscle while LOSING body fat. If you can gain muscle while losing fat, then I know you can gain muscle while maintaining body fat.

  27. #27
    soulstealer's Avatar
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    You Will ALWAYS Gain more muscle by gaining bodyfat while bulking ALWAYS.. BUT Can you keep it while your dieting.... There is one exception to this rule.... If your on enough shit and working out hard enough that it becomes VERY hard to put on bodyfat while eatin clean then you kinda hit an obvious wall... and thats where insulin comes in...

    But if your natty.. then there is No reason to get FAT... but gaining a little bodyfat is a must... A rule of thumb would be to try to over eat 300-500 cals a day While your bulking...

    If you gain too much fat then the whole process was a waste...
    Last edited by soulstealer; 02-14-2012 at 08:57 PM.

  28. #28
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    I know this us an old thread BUT i feel i have something to contribute, I had the mentality that bulking was good because I felt stronger but I almost always lost that strength in cutting even if I went for the 2.5 lbs a week I'd loose some strength so after a few years of kinda bulking kinda cutting and having ups and downs I decided to make my diet a science I cut my calories by 100 every week until I noticed a steady weight loss keeping as much of the rest of my life steady once I got to the point of loosing a pound every 2 weeks I started to add calories varying from protein or carbs both from whole foods not shakes and always in my first meal and eventually after 8+ months I had found MY diet that works for me and now for the past year I've added 100 calories to my diet every 15 days or twice a month and I've constantly gained weight LEAN weight month to month even if it's a constant 6 oz a month that's a lot of muscle!!!! 6 oz X 12 that's 6 pounds of muscle a year and I've seen as much as 2 lbs a month and over the past year I've gained 15 LBS OF MUSCLE and my bf has stayed mostly the same minus a few lbs water weight a few times. I Know People say " I can gain that in a few weeks of my test cycle" and i agree but I'm doing this natural and keeping bf under 10%. Once i am 225 lbs at or under 10% bf I will most likely cycle but for now this is a program that took a lot of time and effort to really dial in and has worked amazing!!! On a side note if I had a long day of manual labor or an excess of activity I usually ingested a few extra calories to comp.

  29. #29
    Matt007's Avatar
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    Yeah I totally agree, obviously depending on your body fat its much easier to bulk when u start your bulk with your bf low, then taking measurements once a week u can judge how much bf u are rougly putting on during your bulk to either cut back on the cals or add more cals to your diet, everyones metabolism varies, find out what works for u, and make adjustments to your diet plan

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