15mg dbol and hpta

**bert003** · 03-31-2011, 10:57 AM

a friend of mine is taking 15mg dbol daily for 2 weeks on and 2 weeks off (repeat twice).

What about the dosage effect on hpta? is it really that bad on hpta at 15mg?

if so, how long PCT should be done?

he is also planning to use winstrol for 3 weeks afterwards... I know it is not a great cycle but any suggestions please...

**Fetch** · 03-31-2011, 11:03 AM

edit: Woops, wrong thread

**bert003** · 03-31-2011, 11:55 AM

anyone pls?

**DeNero** · 03-31-2011, 12:07 PM

By reading your post. All I can say is for you and your friend to educate yourself more before considering using any gears. You still got a long way to go. Be smart and wise about what you are putting in your body.

**bert003** · 03-31-2011, 12:39 PM

I've heard that reply many times but we found that dbol cycle of 2 weeks on, 2 weeks off (x2) on another site which was already tried by someone and documented day by day... And the results were great. Yes I know every person is different but i think it's worth trying...

So please can someone answer my initial question please? Without commenting the cycle...

Thanks

**bert003** · 04-01-2011, 02:53 PM

bump

**kelevra** · 04-01-2011, 03:00 PM

Well I’m no Einstein, but it sound preposterously stupid. You don’t build muscle in 2 weeks and Dbol is a short ester oral that will be totally out of your system by the next 2 week period. You’ll gain some strength for 2 weeks and start all over again. If I’m not wrong, the strength gains come from the high saturization of the muscle cell with water from the Dbol. I certainly am not educated enough to comment on what this is doing to the bodies hormone levels as it receive a fairly powerful substance in Dbol and the right away off again. Has got to be wreaking havoc in there.

**bert003** · 04-01-2011, 03:05 PM

thanks for your reply kelevra... the idea is to give time to the body to recover, at least that's what I have read...

what about effect on hpta pls?

**Flier** · 04-01-2011, 03:16 PM

15 mg Dbol ED for 2 weeks will affect the HPTA, but not much at all. But everybody is different, u will have to try.
I would think your HPTA will restore quicly after such a short cycle....Even 100mg Dbol will not shut down the HPTA.

WInstrol for 3 weeks will suppress the HPTA and lower the bodys total test. On the other hand it also reduces your SHBG, so your free test will raise.
Again 3 weeks is short. For 6-8 weeks I would definitely add Test.

Both these compounds are liver toxic, but again, these cycles are short.

Definitely an unconventional cycle, and the weight you gain will be mostly water, which u will cut with Winstrol.

I´m curious to how much lean muscle u will be left with after the cycle.

And I know your friend is older than 25 right?...or else I´m sure u would advise him to wait.

**YoungMan** · 04-01-2011, 03:20 PM

Originally Posted by kelevra

Well I’m no Einstein, but it sound preposterously stupid. You don’t build muscle in 2 weeks and Dbol is a short ester oral that will be totally out of your system by the next 2 week period. You’ll gain some strength for 2 weeks and start all over again. If I’m not wrong, the strength gains come from the high saturization of the muscle cell with water from the Dbol. I certainly am not educated enough to comment on what this is doing to the bodies hormone levels as it receive a fairly powerful substance in Dbol and the right away off again. Has got to be wreaking havoc in there.

Kelevra would 15mg a day even do anything especially if its 2 weeks on and 2 weeks off and dbol being a short ester oral

**bert003** · 04-01-2011, 03:27 PM

Thanks First Timer 42... At last....

Yes my friend is 31 years old. So do you suggest he should combine the winstrol with the dbol ? Instead of using it after the short dbol cycle?

**Flier** · 04-01-2011, 03:49 PM

If that is what I had and wanted to do, I would start the Winstrol along with the second round of Dbol .
I would also do BW 1 week after the cycle to see where my HPTH was at.
Also make sure he does BW before the cycle so he knows what to compare to.

If the LH is only slightly lowered I would not do a SERM

**bert003** · 04-01-2011, 04:00 PM

thanks First Timer 42... will tell him

appreciated your replies...

**jimmyinkedup** · 04-01-2011, 04:54 PM

10mg dball /day = full androgen replacement in males

He will be fully shut down.

the 2 week on 2 week off was promoted by...damn i forget his name..tmag clown ...his theory is orals lose effectiveness after 2 weeks so by cycling like this you can get good results. While some effectiveness in certain areas using orals is lost in 2 weeks - same arent. Its all in all a bad idea.

**Matt** · 04-01-2011, 05:03 PM

^^ Agreed with jimmy, even at this low dose it will shut you down 100%, i know this was a protocol back when but makes no sense to me..

Your not allowing your body chance to fully recover before hitting it again and i also believe test should be the base of all cycles....

**Ashop** · 04-01-2011, 07:39 PM

Originally Posted by bert003

a friend of mine is taking 15mg dbol daily for 2 weeks on and 2 weeks off (repeat twice).

What about the dosage effect on hpta? is it really that bad on hpta at 15mg?

if so, how long PCT should be done?

he is also planning to use winstrol for 3 weeks afterwards... I know it is not a great cycle but any suggestions please...

It will effect HPTA reagrdless. Poor cycle planning too. The 2 weeks ON 2 OFF is counter productive IMO.

**Fetch** · 04-02-2011, 01:27 AM

15mg/day will shut you down, and won't really give you much in the way of results, anyway... unless your natural test was abysmally low to start with. I wouldn't bother running it like this.
Dianabol is typically used as a kickstart, because it makes you feel strong and gain a few pounds quickly while you wait for the test to kick in. Because it is very liver toxic, it is advised not to take it beyond 4 weeks in a row. Two on two off will promote too much of a rubber band effect..
Honestly though, you can gain decent sustainable muscle off a longish cycle (8-10 weeks) of Dbol only, run at the appropriate levels. The problem is, it is very hard on your liver, and sides start to get extreme. (Dry throat no matter how much you drink, lower back pain, severe cramping, etc. Bad news) In essence, there are better ways to do it.

**Flier** · 04-02-2011, 02:33 AM

Ok.....I guess I take back my statement that 10mg Dbol /day will not shut u down.

If u guys have personal experience with BW to show shut down, then that´s better info than my book knowledge.

But...I´ve read a lot about this, and there is so much conflicting information.

This is a statement from DR Scally:

Dianabol adversely affects the HPTA. There is a lot of commentary, both in posts and websites, that dianabol does not adversely affect the HPTA. It is difficult, more like impossible, to find support for this in the peer reviewed literature. Additionally, personal experience on testing of the HPTA from individuals using dianabol shows consistently and uniformly HPTA suppression."

When Dr Scally here, and we when we discuss AAS, use the word suppress, does it mean reduce, or shut down??

Here is from a study:

"Finally, a case study from 1977 describes findings on the use of dianabol (up to 20 mg/day in intermittent courses for a year or more). These are the following: At the time of examination there was no subjective disturbance of sexual function, but testosterone levels were low relative to laboratory standards and luteinizing hormone levels were also reduced - particularly in relation to testosterone concentrations. Abnormal liver function tests were seen in three of the six subjects, and one had mild diabetes with high serum cholesterol, triglycerides and uric acid. The weight gain of the group was not outstanding, and the only possible finding was a high hemoglobin and hematocrit in one of the six subjects.

**bert003** · 04-02-2011, 04:12 AM

Thanks for all your replies guys...

What about this?

edit: link removed... article pasted in another post below

It clearly highlights IMO the difference between supression and shutdown... and dbol falls under the suppression category and not the shutdown one...

any opinions?

**Matt** · 04-02-2011, 05:13 AM

^^ Please edit out that link, if you want you can copy and paste the article but we do not allow links to other boards...

**Flier** · 04-02-2011, 07:20 AM

Great article!
Like Matt said, delete link and post article for others to comment.

**bert003** · 04-02-2011, 07:48 AM

Sorry for inserting the link... Here is the article...

It sounds good to do a cycle for over 20 weeks and have your HPTA still functioning.

Some steroids only REDUCE TESTOSTERONE PRODUCTION(to varying degrees), whereas other steroids will SHUTDOWN the HPTA resulting in a complete cessation of androgen production.

*NOT ALL ANDROGENS CAUSE SHUTDOWN*

"Shutdown", is defined by a COMPLETE inhibition of the Pituitary/Testes, resulting in a TOTAL cessation of endogenous androgen production.

SOME androgens will only SUPPRESS endogenous androgen production, resulting in a DECREASED testosterone level, but not a complete shutdown. (Turinabol , Anavar , Halotestin , Wistrol, Equipoise , Dianabol , Masteron , Primobolan )

Very Androgenic /Progestenic/Estrogenic steroids(Trenbolone , Nandrolone , Anadrol , Testosterone) cause a COMPLETE shutdown of endogenous hormone production.

The distinction between SUPRESSION and SHUTDOWN is utterly important, as steroids that cause LESS supression of endogenous hormones will allow for greater retention of gains upon ending the cycle, and a quicker, easier recovery!

The Following steroids will NOT SHUTDOWN THE HPTA:

Turinabol, Anavar, Proviron , Halotestin, Wistrol, Equipoise, Dianabol, Masteron, Primobolan, Clostebol, and 4-ADiol.

Pre-PCT: PRE-PCT allows the HPTA to begin LH/FSH output, while still receiving additional anabolic support. This is the peroid of time where we utilize a NON-inhibitory steroid while the endogenous testosterone level begins to recover. This occurs PRIOR TO FULL PCT, so that by the time we begin full PCT the HPTA has already began recovering.

Active RECOVERY: The HPTA BEGINS to restore endogenous testosterone production once it detects the body's androgen level beginning to decline(end of cycle).

Therefore, HPTA CAN BEGIN TO RECOVER WHILE STILL IN AN ANABOLIC STATE!

The following drugs can be used during Active Recovery:

Anavar/Proviron= 40mgs/25mgs
Anavar/Masteron= 40mgs/300mgs
Primobolan/Masteron= 300mgs/300mgs
Turinabol/Proviron= 40mgs/25mgs
Turinabol/Masteron= 40mgs/300mgs
Winstrol /Masteron= 50mgs/300mgs
Dianabol/Proviron= 15mgs/25mgs
Dianabol/Masteron= 15mgs/300mgs

Examples...

In a SHORT CYCLE:
Weeks 1-4: Testosterone Propionate , 100mgs ED
Weeks 1-4: Dianabol, 50mgs ED
Weeks 1-4: NPP, 400mgs
Weeks 4-8: **PRE-PCT(ACTIVE RECOVERY)**
Weeks 8-?: **POST CYCLE THERAPY **

A Standard Cycle:
Weeks 1-6: Dianabol, 30mgs ED
Weeks 1-10: Testosterone Enanthate , 500mgs
Weeks 8-12: Winstrol, 100mgs ED
Weeks 12-16: **PRE-PCT(ACTIVE RECOVERY) **
Weeks 16-26: **POST CYCLE THERAPY**

DO NOT end your cycle ABRUPTLY! Don't just END your cycle cold-turkey! If you are SHUTDOWN, full restoration can take weeks and even MONTHS. Therefore, one should REMAIN ON minimally-inhibitive STEROIDS(HPTA) in an attempt to MAINTAIN the gains they made while ON CYCLE, while STILL BEGINNING TO RECOVER TESTOSTERONE PRODUCTION. On top of that, one still continues to progess from the mild additional anabolic support.

NOT only does it mean that you can run a COMPLETE CYCLE with NO SHUTDOWN whatsoever(as long as the right compounds, dosages, and durations are used), it also means that if you ARE SHUTDOWN from your cycle, you do NOT HAVE TO COME RIGHT OFF CYCLE! Actually, it is BETTER TO STAY ON CYCLE WHILE YOUR ENDOGENOUS TESTOSTERONE LEVEL BEGINS TO INCREASE!

You may also run a cycle that COMPLETELY AVOIDS SHUTDOWN:

Weeks 1-6: Dianabol, 40mgs ED
Weeks 1-10: Anavar, 50mgs ED
Weeks 1-10: Masteron, 100mgs EOD

Or

Weeks 1-6: Dianabol, 40mgs ED
Weeks 1-10: Primobolan, 500mgs
Weeks 6-14: Turinabol, 60mgs ED

And Many many more! There are tons of NON-inhibitory cycles that you can devise using my my list above for your guideline. Your days of HPTA suffering are over!

By understanding WHICH steroids cause SHUTDOWN and which steroids do NOT, we can formulate a perfect EXTENDED CYCLE.

The Hypothalamus has Androgen, Estrogen, and Progesterone receptors.

Each and EVERY anabolic steroid affects these receptors DIFFERENTLY.

Some steroids affect ALL receptors, while some only affect ONE type of receptor, while others have very little effect on ANY of these receptors.

UNDERSTANDING WHICH steroids affect which receptors, and to WHAT DEGREE, will FULLY enable the steroid user to COMPLETELY and systematically AVOID HPTA SHUTDOWN!

By understanding WHICH steroids cause SHUTDOWN and which steroids do NOT, we can formulate a perfect EXTENDED CYCLE.

Steroids that cause an OVERSATURATION(too many receptors activated) of these various hormone receptors, WILL CAUSE SHUTDOWN.

Steroids that DO NOT CAUSE an OVERSATURATION of ANY of these various hormone receptors, will NOT cause SHUTDOWN!

The Following drugs either DIRECTLY or INDIRECTLY activate ESTROGEN receptors, to varying degrees:

Testosterone
Methandrostenolone
Mathandriol
Oxymetholone
Nandrolone
Boldenone

The Following drugs either DIRECTLY or INDIRECTLY activate PROGESTERONE receptors, to varying degrees:

Nandrolone
Trenbolone
Oxymetholone

The Following drugs activate Androgen receptors, to varying degrees:

Testosterone
Methandrostenolone
Mathandriol
Oxymetholone
Nandrolone
Boldenone
Trenbolone
Halotestin
Oxandrolone
Stanzolol
Chlorodehydromethltestosterone
Methyltestosterone
Methenolone...
(ALL AAS*)

As we can see, the steroids that cause HPTA SHUTDOWN either OVERSATURATE ONE SPECIFIC receptor, or they activate too many TOTAL receptors(Androgen/Estrogen/Progesterone)

For instance, Trenbolone causes HPTA SHUTDOWN because it OVERSATURATES BOTH, the ANDROGEN and the PROGESTERONE receptors.

Testosterone causes SHUTDOWN because it converts to ESTROGEN and DHT, therefore, it oversaturates the Androgen/Estrogen receptors.

As we can ALSO SEE, the steroids that DO NOT cause SHUTDOWN of the HPTA, do NOT oversaturate ANY of the different hormone receptors, and thus, do NOT cause SHUTDOWN.

Methenolone(Primobolan) does not possess ANY Estrogenic or Progestational ACTIVITY WHATSOEVER. It does, by virtue of being an anabolic steroid, posses a SMALL Androgenic component. Because it lacks ANY ESTROGENIC/PROGESTATIONAL component, and it lacks a strong Androgenic component, it WILL NOT CAUSE SHUTDOWN!

Oxandrolone(Anavar) posseses NO Estrogenic/Progestational component either. AND, it also lacks a strong androgenic component. Thus, Anavar will NOT cause shutdown.

By understanding WHICH steroids cause SHUTDOWN and which steroids do NOT, we can formulate a perfect EXTENDED CYCLE.

*It must also be noted, that ANY steroid in LARGE enough DOSAGES for long enough DURATIONS, can cause SHUTDOWN of the HPTA.

NOT ALL ANDROGENS CAUSE SHUTDOWN*

"Shutdown", is defined by a COMPLETE inhibition of the Pituitary/Testes, resulting in a TOTAL cessation of endogenous androgen production.

SOME androgens will only SUPPRESS endogenous androgen production, resulting in a DECREASED testosterone level, but not a complete shutdown. (Tbol, Var, Wistrol, EQ, Dianabol, masteron, proviron, halo, primo)

Very Androgenic/Progestenic/Estrogenic steroids(Tren , Deca , Drol, Test) cause a COMPLETE shutdown of endogenous hormone production.

The distinction between SUPRESSION and SHUTDOWN is utterly important, as steroids that cause LESS supression of endogenous hormones will allow for greater retention of gains upon ending the cycle, and a quicker, easier PCT.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Horm Metab Res. 1984 Sep;16(9):492-7.Related Articles, Links

Effect of non aromatizable androgens on LHRH and TRH responses in primary testicular failure.

Spitz IM, Margalioth EJ, Yeger Y, Livshin Y, Zylber-Haran E, Shilo S.

We have assessed the gonadotropin, TSH and PRL responses to the non aromatizable androgens, mesterolone and fluoxymestrone, in 27 patients with primary testicular failure. All patients were given a bolus of LHRH (100 micrograms) and TRH (200 micrograms) at zero time. Nine subjects received a further bolus of TRH at 30 mins. The latter were then given mesterolone 150 mg daily for 6 weeks. The remaining subjects received fluoxymesterone 5 mg daily for 4 weeks and 10 mg daily for 2 weeks. On the last day of the androgen administration, the subjects were re-challenged with LHRH and TRH according to the identical protocol. When compared to controls, the patients had normal circulating levels of testosterone , estradiol, PRL and thyroid hormones. However, basal LH, FSH and TSH levels, as well as gonadotropin responses to LHRH and TSH and PRL responses to TRH, were increased. Mesterolone administration produced no changes in steroids, thyroid hormones, gonadotropins nor PRL. There was, however, a reduction in the integrated and incremental TSH secretion after TRH. Fluoxymesterone administration was accompanied by a reduction in thyroid binding globulin (with associated decreases in T3 and increases in T3 resin uptake). The free T4 index was unaltered, which implies that thyroid function was unchanged. In addition, during fluoxymesterone administration, there was a reduction in testosterone, gonadotropins and LH response to LHRH. Basal TSH did not vary, but there was a reduction in the peak and integrated TSH response to TRH. PRL levels were unaltered during fluoxymesterone treatment.

**jimmyinkedup** · 04-02-2011, 10:27 AM

I think the article is somewhat outdated. It used to be held true that anavar & primo wouldnt cause shutdown. It was later discovered that they are more surpressive than previously thought. Also the study doesnt apply to d bol as it IS an aromitizing androgen.
It just stand to reason if 10mgs dball = full androgen replacement ...why would the body produce testosterone ? In my opinion it wouldnt. Anything 10mgs or higher per day of dball would imo cause shut down. I could be wrong...but i think my line of thinking makes sense.
I think we ALL agree that the 2week on 2 week off 15mg dball/day cycle is a poor one regardless.
Id love for swifto to weigh in on this. His knowledge of hpta supression/shutdown and restoration of function is unparallelled on this site.

**bert003** · 04-02-2011, 10:34 AM

I see.... Now I am

than ever...

So, if my friend decides to stop since it is a poor cycle, let's say after week 1, should he also consider taking Nolvadex as PCT? And for how long pls before the shutdown phase is completely restored? (don't know if I explained it well)

Looking forward to swifto's opinions on the topic...

**YoungMan** · 04-02-2011, 10:58 AM

Yeah im confused to shit now... after that article

**bert003** · 04-02-2011, 11:08 AM

yeah... there are many different lines of thought on the subject...

**YoungMan** · 04-02-2011, 11:13 AM

Originally Posted by bert003

yeah... there are many different lines of thought on the subject...

Yeah but then who's theories right... we could be giving some wrong advise to people... i know its just one article but you know it makes sense... like this is wak...

**bert003** · 04-02-2011, 11:16 AM

yes, I perfectly agree with you...

I guess no theory or all theories are right at some point because every person is different so maybe side effects which occur in one individual may not occur in another...

Other than that, I do not know what to think...

**YoungMan** · 04-02-2011, 11:22 AM

Originally Posted by bert003

yes, I perfectly agree with you...

I guess no theory or all theories are right at some point because every person is different so maybe side effects which occur in one individual may not occur in another...

Other than that, I do not know what to think...

Then who are we...or who are the pro's to be giving advise... If everyone is different... and everyones opinions are different.... i know we can help with the prevention of bad happening but we never know what the outcome could be for anyone.... one person can take 100mg of dbol and have no pct and be fine and perfect.....one person can take 50mg of dbol and fuuckkk his life up.... i guess we can share our knowledge on how much we know, but truth and virtue being that at the end of the day our knowledge is only an opinion, no matter what we might know, whether we think were right or wrong... people react diferent to things in life then other people

**bert003** · 04-02-2011, 11:25 AM

Originally Posted by YoungMan

Then who are we...or who are the pro's to be giving advise... If everyone is different... and everyones opinions are different.... i know we can help with the prevention of bad happening but we never know what the outcome could be for anyone.... one person can take 100mg of dbol and have no pct and be fine and perfect.....one person can take 50mg of dbol and fuuckkk his life up.... i guess we can share our knowledge on how much we know, but truth and virtue being that at the end of the day our knowledge is only an opinion, no matter what we might know, whether we think were right or wrong... people react diferent to things in life then other people

wise words mate... really wise words

**jimmyinkedup** · 04-02-2011, 11:46 AM

Originally Posted by YoungMan

Then who are we...or who are the pro's to be giving advise... If everyone is different... and everyones opinions are different.... i know we can help with the prevention of bad happening but we never know what the outcome could be for anyone.... one person can take 100mg of dbol and have no pct and be fine and perfect.....one person can take 50mg of dbol and fuuckkk his life up.... i guess we can share our knowledge on how much we know, but truth and virtue being that at the end of the day our knowledge is only an opinion, no matter what we might know, whether we think were right or wrong... people react diferent to things in life then other people

Advice is merely perception of facts combined with personal experience and opinion. Anyone can give advice. Some may be more prudent than others - based on understanding of facts and personal expeience. Who's advice a person heeds..is obviously up to the individual.
Is it worth taking an uncharted risk with potentially dangerous effects of "f ing up his life" as you put it ? My opinion would be no ..as there are plenty of known protocols that would reduce if not eliminate these risks.
Honestly its tough to form an opinion of what the person the OP is refering to should or should not be doing..as we know nothing about him. IMO though this is not the best protocol for anyone. Just my opinion , for what that may or may not be worth....

**bert003** · 04-02-2011, 11:55 AM

as regards my friend's stats, here they are (if I remember)...

age: 31
weight: 60kg
height: 167cm

don't know BF... anything else I may provide?

probably, the first reply would be to tell him to go to the diet section. but he is quite lean and his aim is not to get massive (considering his height) but just to add a bit more muscle mass... He says he eats 6 meals a day and takes ~140g protein split between these meals...

**YoungMan** · 04-02-2011, 11:55 AM

Originally Posted by jimmyinkedup

Advice is merely perception of facts combined with personal experience and opinion. Anyone can give advice. Some may be more prudent than others - based on understanding of facts and personal expeience. Who's advice a person heeds..is obviously up to the individual.
Is it worth taking an uncharted risk with potentially dangerous effects of "f ing up his life" as you put it ? My opinion would be no ..as there are plenty of known protocols that would reduce if not eliminate these risks.
Honestly its tough to form an opinion of what the person the OP is refering to should or should not be doing..as we know nothing about him. IMO though this is not the best protocol for anyone. Just my opinion , for what that may or may not be worth....

good way of putting it... the more knowledge the better.... but trial and error is always how it works with AAS , but like you said its good to know things to help with prevention..

**Fetch** · 04-02-2011, 03:18 PM

That would be 5'6, 132 pounds. DBol isn't his answer... he isn't eating enough.

**Flier** · 04-02-2011, 03:47 PM

Originally Posted by Fetch

That would be 5'6, 132 pounds. DBol isn't his answer... he isn't eating enough.

Wow....yes...that´s like the size of my GF.......

**trusted** · 04-02-2011, 03:55 PM

it would be stupid. no gains are worth shutdown. my oppion.

i am shut down right now, trust me listen to everyone!!!!

plus- i'm 5'6 160........ at 132, you can gain 30lbs within a few months natural.

**bert003** · 04-03-2011, 01:39 AM

Ok... So, any good bulking diet while keeping lean muscle?

Once I saw a diet which consisted of eating salmon, chicken and meat spread over 3 meals everyday... But it's somehow impossible in his situation cause he cannot afford it...

thanks for your replies

**bert003** · 04-04-2011, 11:42 AM

bump...

ok guys, following what all of you suggested here, he decided to stop dbol ...

should he take nolvadex as PCT or no PCT is needed? He only took dbol for a week at 15mg ED

if he's to take nolvadex, for how long then?

thanks