Will tren cause gyno even if I'm controlling E with an AI

[cjr579]

So tired of getting puffy nipples/ small lumps every time I cycle. I do my best to control but I still get it. I was taking 12.5 mg liq stane eod. Noticed a small lump and puffy nipps. Bumped the AI to Ed. Only been taking it everyday for 2 days now. Should I be patient and let the liq stane do it's job. Or should I start the letro?

Is it possible to get gyno from tren while controlling estrogen. Don't really want to take prami but if you guys think it will help I'm all for it.

[hoagie]

AI won't do anything for tren (or deca ) induced gyno. The 19-nor's elevate prolactin levels.. which can cause gyno thats worse than e2 related gyno (believe me I've gotten it and it's not fun.

You are wasting your money by taking stane or letro, UNLESS you are using a good dose of test at the same time.. depending on your dose, 12.5 eod would be fine if your only taking a moderate testo dosge.

For prolactin gyno symptoms you need to get yourself some caber or prami... that along w/ adex/stane/letro will wipe out any nipple sensitivity or swelling completely.

Why do you not want to take prami? You only need a small amount (.25-.5mg/day split). Guys getting sick off it usually are taking 1mg+

[cjr579]

AI won't do anything for tren (or deca ) induced gyno. The 19-nor's elevate prolactin levels.. which can cause gyno thats worse than e2 related gyno (believe me I've gotten it and it's not fun.

You are wasting your money by taking stane or letro, UNLESS you are using a good dose of test at the same time.. depending on your dose, 12.5 eod would be fine if your only taking a moderate testo dosge.

For prolactin gyno symptoms you need to get yourself some caber or prami... that along w/ adex/stane/letro will wipe out any nipple sensitivity or swelling completely.

Why do you not want to take prami? You only need a small amount (.25-.5mg/day split). Guys getting sick off it usually are taking 1mg+

currently running 500mg/wk test and 300mg/wk tren h.

So you are saying that the gyno could be brought on from the 19-nor rather than the test. I always thought that if I controlled E than prolactin would not be an issue. Hmmm ...you learn something everyday. Really thought prolactin sides were just leaky nips.

Should I take prami at that dose the rest of the cycle up until pct?

[The Bear 79]

AI won't do anything for tren (or deca ) induced gyno. The 19-nor's elevate prolactin levels.. which can cause gyno thats worse than e2 related gyno (believe me I've gotten it and it's not fun.

You are wasting your money by taking stane or letro, UNLESS you are using a good dose of test at the same time.. depending on your dose, 12.5 eod would be fine if your only taking a moderate testo dosge.

For prolactin gyno symptoms you need to get yourself some caber or prami... that along w/ adex/stane/letro will wipe out any nipple sensitivity or swelling completely.

Why do you not want to take prami? You only need a small amount (.25-.5mg/day split). Guys getting sick off it usually are taking 1mg+

Completely wrong. Prolactin can be 100% controlled with nothing more than an AI. Research the "Long Feedback Mechanism".

[The Bear 79]

You can get raised prolactin levels from almost ANY steroid , not just 19 nors, because anything that effects your estrogen levels will raise your prolactin levels, therefore, of you keep your estrogen in check, your prolactin will follow suit. Yes, I have tested this theory for going on 3 months now, & at some insanely high doses of Tren . I might add.

[Atomini]

Conversely, running trenbolone (or any 19-nor) at a higher dose to make it the primary anabolic while keeping testosteron really low (e.g. 100mg per week) should reduce any likelyhood at all of any rising estrogen levels. Reason being, 19-nors do not convert to estrogen at all, and with testosterone being run so low, the body will not be in an alarmed state converting huge amounts of it to estrogen.

OR you can take cabergoline. I personally always run cabergoline regardless on a tren cycle (1mg per week). Increased prolactin levels do not interest me in the slightest.

[ironbeck]

You can get raisedd prolactin levels from almost ANY steroid, not just 19 nors, because anything that effects your estrogen levels will raise your prolactin levels, therefore, of you keep your estrogen in check, your prolactin will follow suit. Yes, I have tested this theory for going on 3 months now, & at some insanely high doses of Tren. I might add.

Nice post, experienced theory in current use.

[lovbyts]

Looking for Prami? You wont find a better quality or customer service.
http://www.ar-r.com/ancillaries/prol...ml-1mg-ml.html

[cjr579]

Thanks! Lovbyts. I ordered some already. Hopefully will be here by the first of the week.

[cjr579]

[QUOTE=The Bear 79;6060339]Completely wrong. Prolactin can be 100% controlled with nothing more than an AI. Research the "Long Feedback Mechanism".[/QUOTE

That's what I found when I researched. But for some reason I still have signs of gyno. The only thing I can say is that I was taking liq stane mon/wed/fri @12.5mg. I didn't take it sat or Sunday which leaves enough time for the stane to break down and allow estrogen through. I actually thought the half-life was longer than 24hr. Does this sound possible? Since the gyno was noticed I bumped the AI to everyday and I mean everyday.
Will the prami clear this up..at least the puffy nipps? Or should I jump on letro?

[gymsoldier]

The only thing I can say is that I was taking liq stane mon/wed/fri @12.5mg. I didn't take it sat or Sunday which leaves enough time for the stane to break down and allow estrogen through. I actually thought the half-life was longer than 24hr. Does this sound possible? Since the gyno was noticed I bumped the AI to everyday and I mean everyday.
Will the prami clear this up..at least the puffy nipps? Or should I jump on letro?

The half-life is 27hrs, so in retrospect you should have been taking 12.5mg ED.
That's just my thinking behind it, kinda like the way you wouldn't pin Test-Prop once a week, due to the half-life.

EDIT: In relation to your Prami/Letro question, I don't have enough knowledge to answer sorry.

[signals.lahoud]

im curious, lots of people say 12.5 stane eod, and just as many people say ed, can someone shed some light? does cjr have the right idea, eod u notice gyno sides, then ed if you do

[DanB]

im curious, lots of people say 12.5 stane eod, and just as many people say ed, can someone shed some light? does cjr have the right idea, eod u notice gyno sides, then ed if you do

I can only speak for myself on this, dont know the reasoning of others but mine is because any aromasin tabs I have seen have been 25mg so fvck trying to split that into 4 hence the 12.5mg (half a tab) eod

And better to start low and increase if necessary then start to high and crash

[signals.lahoud]

i see, but most of the people saying to take stane ed are sayin 12.5 ed

[DanB]

i see, but most of the people saying to take stane ed are sayin 12.5 ed

Thats their opinion and mine is above, I use adex since I have it stockpiled lol but majority of friends use aromasin and 12.5mg eod will suffice for a moderately dosed cycle hence why I say it

But everybody different, there is no concrete rule, I know people on here who need 25mg ed for 1g test then people who get away with 12.5mg for same dose of test, then people who need 25mg for 500mg test, only way to know for definate if e2 is in normal ranges is to get BW done

[hoagie]

Completely wrong. Prolactin can be 100% controlled with nothing more than an AI. Research the "Long Feedback Mechanism".

Well tell that to my prolactin gyno that 25mg/day of stane didn't touch.. and neither did 2.5mg daily of letro. But .25 prami had it starting to shrink in less than a full week.

I'm not talking out of my ass here. This is not some theory I read somewhere, no broscience, no opinion. 800mg of deca w/ high dose AI and NO prolactin antagonist gave me the worst gyno of my life. (I've gotten smaller, less painful e2 induced gyno from previous cycles of high dose test, but I can always control it w/ adex or letro, not this time).

[hoagie]

[QUOTE=cjr579;6060418]

Completely wrong. Prolactin can be 100% controlled with nothing more than an AI. Research the "Long Feedback Mechanism".[/QUOTE

That's what I found when I researched. But for some reason I still have signs of gyno. The only thing I can say is that I was taking liq stane mon/wed/fri @12.5mg. I didn't take it sat or Sunday which leaves enough time for the stane to break down and allow estrogen through. I actually thought the half-life was longer than 24hr. Does this sound possible? Since the gyno was noticed I bumped the AI to everyday and I mean everyday.
Will the prami clear this up..at least the puffy nipps? Or should I jump on letro?

Funny how real life dosen't always work just as it reads on a research study?

Jump on both letro and prami or caber. I've gotten great results w/ both. I am running a good dose of testo too so... High dose letro(2.5/day) for a wk or 2 then taper and add in something like stane at 12.5/day so you don't get an e2 rebound from letro dropping. Continue prami/caber for a few wks after 19-nor's are dropped.

It really sucks when you have to learn the hard way, but due to this horid experience I will never EVER run any 19's w/out prolactin control. I've never run deca (or real deca anyway) at high dosages (800mg+) w/ 1g of test. Highest I've run was 400mg/wk. And like I've said, 1mg/day adex usually keeps any soreness/puffiness down runnin a gram of test. Thankfully my gyno has shrunken considerably... it's still there, but not painfull or as puffy as before.

[cjr579]

Well tell that to my prolactin gyno that 25mg/day of stane didn't touch.. and neither did 2.5mg daily of letro. But .25 prami had it starting to shrink in less than a full week.

I'm not talking out of my ass here. This is not some theory I read somewhere, no broscience, no opinion. 800mg of deca w/ high dose AI and NO prolactin antagonist gave me the worst gyno of my life. (I've gotten smaller, less painful e2 induced gyno from previous cycles of high dose test, but I can always control it w/ adex or letro, not this time).

I sure hope you are right Hoagie! As soon as the prami gets in I'll start taking it. Hopefully I see some results ASAP

[The Bear 79]

Hoagie, In case you missed the part about me actually using this method, I'll say it again, for nearly 3 months now, I have been controlling my prolactin levels with an AI. Funny how real life sometimes works EXACTLY how it reads on a research study. And again, you should beware of elevated prolactin levels from just about ANY steroid , not just 19 nors. If you actually take a moment to do the research I suggested, & quit being so offended / butt hurt about someone proving your advice wrong & for the most part inadequate, you would clearly see that you're just plain wrong in your claim. I would like to know more about the cycle that have you "prolactin gyno". What was the cycle? What was your bf%? What AI did you use, when did you start it, what dose did you start it & how long did you run it?

[DanB]

I reckon bear is fimilar with this already but I invite anybody else interested on the subject to give it a look

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...a#.T_DW2ZGMiSp

Also here is a discussion on the subject with relevant info contributed by some of our most respected members

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...s#.T_DXk5GMiSo

[cjr579]

Hoagie, In case you missed the part about me actually using this method, I'll say it again, for nearly 3 months now, I have been controlling my prolactin levels with an AI. Funny how real life sometimes works EXACTLY how it reads on a research study. And again, you should beware of elevated prolactin levels from just about ANY steroid , not just 19 nors. If you actually take a moment to do the research I suggested, & quit being so offended / butt hurt about someone proving your advice wrong & for the most part inadequate, you would clearly see that you're just plain wrong in your claim. I would like to know more about the cycle that have you "prolactin gyno". What was the cycle? What
was your bf%? What AI did you use, when did you start it, what dose did you start it & how long did you run it?

So Bear, If I was taking the liquid stane eod and suppose I'm getting gyno. I bumped the stane to Ed and I have letro and nolva on hand and prami on the way. What should my plan of action be to try and get rid of the puffy nipps and lump? Should I use swifto's gyno reversal while on cycle?
Sorry for all the questions. I'm just more confused now than ever before.
Thanks

[DanB]

^^^^^^^

I dont think bear will mind me answering this as he hasnt been posting much so prob busy, but look at the first link I posted and it will answer your question

[The Bear 79]

Reversing gyno is a slow process that draws the impatience out of many. I would stay the coarse of 12.5 mg/ED (which is the dose I use on cycle by the way) & be patient. In my opinion, Swifto's gyno reversal protocol is intended for full blown gyno, (chimpanzee tits) not just a lump. And for the record, I'm not denying the Prami & / or Caber won't work, I'm just saying its not needed, not to mention, I don't like the way Prami makes me feel.

[The Bear 79]

^^^^^^^

I dont think bear will mind me answering this as he hasnt been posting much so prob busy, but look at the first link I posted and it will answer your question

Step in anytime Dan, I don't mind at all, in fact, the help is greatly appreciated big guy.

[cjr579]

Thanks guys for all the good info. Very much appreciated. Think after this cycle I'm going to have the surgery. Seems like no matter how much I try to prevent gyno it always gets me. It truelly puts a damper on my cycle when I feel I'm doing everything I'm suppose to do to prevent it and I still get gyno symptoms.

[hoagie]

Hoagie, In case you missed the part about me actually using this method, I'll say it again, for nearly 3 months now, I have been controlling my prolactin levels with an AI. Funny how real life sometimes works EXACTLY how it reads on a research study. And again, you should beware of elevated prolactin levels from just about ANY steroid, not just 19 nors. If you actually take a moment to do the research I suggested, & quit being so offended / butt hurt about someone proving your advice wrong & for the most part inadequate, you would clearly see that you're just plain wrong in your claim. I would like to know more about the cycle that have you "prolactin gyno". What was the cycle? What was your bf%? What AI did you use, when did you start it, what dose did you start it & how long did you run it?

Butt hurt because someone w/ "3 cycles completed" is trying to tell me that somthing that I have tried (that didn't work) actually works and that what I am doing now is not working (when it actually is).

Ok, so I am 37yrs old. 5'10" 200-205lbs at roughly 10%bf. 185-190ish 6-8%bf.

Im a smaller guy, and at least I have the balls to put a real pic of myself in my avatar LOL

I don't bulk up fat then try to cut up, I stay very lean year round. I may not be big compared to alot in this scene.. and I don't claim to be... but I know my body, and I know what works for me. I have been using anabolics since 97 when I was 23yrs old (starting weight of 140lbs lol). Got gyno on my second cycle of 1000mg sust/wk. Learned to control it after a few more cycles using AI's and nolva. I've run low/moderate dose AI for every blast cycle to keep nips in check since then. I started the "cruise/blast about 2yrs ago when my pct's started losing effectiveness. I don't need AI for cruise at 200mg/wk. Nips stay small and painless.

Now... my current cycle that I started may 1st consisted of 1000mg test enanthate , 800mg deca , w/ 30mg/day dbol kickstart for the 1st 4wks. Will be dropping the deca at wk12 and replacing enanth w/ prop 100, mast 100, tren -a 100 EOD for following 6wks. Started my cycle w/ 12.5 stane eod and switched over to 12.5/day stane at wk 6ish when gyno started to become painful and swelled up. Added letro at 2.5mg/day when the stane did absolutely nothing wk7. 2wks on letro 2.5per day and gyno not getting any better. Should be noted that overall water retention is super low at this point.

NOW... I have plenty of experience w/ letro. I've tried the "gyno reversal" technique by running it at full 2.5/day for almost 2mths while on a cruise of 250mg cyp/wk. I dried out incredibly, and the gyno got smaller, but never got rid of the fleshy knots under the nipples. So I've learned to deal w/ it and keep it under control. Even at very low bf, I am the only one that can notice it.

Very long story short... got prami, about a wk and a half ago, and added to letro at .25 and results were almost imeadiate... 3-4 ays and the pain was gone and swelling is decreasing each day.

So you can tell me all day long that AI's will keep prolactin in check... I've got plenty of yrs under my belt of real life experience. I've never run deca this high before and funny that the one time I try it, I get gyno worse than ever. And even funnier that my more than adaquate doses of AI did nothing for it... but then I decide to try a prolactin antagonist and what do ya know.. it worked.

Well guy... your research and 3 full cycles under your belt sure seem to make my REAL WORLD trial and error during the last 15yrs
experience wrong. I better go back to "research".

[tboney]

AI won't do anything for tren (or deca ) induced gyno. The 19-nor's elevate prolactin levels.. which can cause gyno thats worse than e2 related gyno (believe me I've gotten it and it's not fun.

You are wasting your money by taking stane or letro, UNLESS you are using a good dose of test at the same time.. depending on your dose, 12.5 eod would be fine if your only taking a moderate testo dosge.

For prolactin gyno symptoms you need to get yourself some caber or prami... that along w/ adex/stane/letro will wipe out any nipple sensitivity or swelling completely.

Why do you not want to take prami? You only need a small amount (.25-.5mg/day split). Guys getting sick off it usually are taking 1mg+

Please do more research before giving advice.....

[hoagie]

Please do more research before giving advice.....

Please go ahead and prove me wrong... w/out links to what "you've read".

[Gi812Many]

I can only offer my advice through personal experience as well.....Im currently up to 1200mgs Tren E/weekly. THE ONLY thing that took my gyno away completely was adding Prami into my regiment. I was previously on aromasin at 12.5mgs/daily with 20mgs/daily of Nolva. Still had small tissue build up around the nipple area. Started letro, honestly no different then what it was with the aromasin. Added .25mgs of Prami eod and 2 weeks saw a huge difference.

[KiloNoSpot]

Gyno or no gyno, 1200mg of tren e is not a healthy or reccomended dosage!

[Gi812Many]

Kilo works for me

[Atomini]

I'm totally with you hoagie... I always advise people to run cabergoline or any prolactin antagonist (I prefer caber over all others) while running any 19-nor at ANY dose. Prolactin levels increasing is bad, BAD, BAD! Males should have as little prolactin in their bodies as possible. It's a hormone that's primarily associated with lactation - something we males do not do. Rising levels do not belong in us what so ever. There is literally no benefit to our bodies to having prolactin increased at all.

The only thing it's good for is if you want to make sure you never run out of milk for your coffee. Otherwise, always run a prolactin antagonist.

[The Bear 79]

Please go ahead and prove me wrong... w/out links to what "you've read".

Yeah he doesn't want to see any links with studies proving he doesn't know what he's talking about. He only want bull shit opinions like his...............Like I said hoagie, if you would do the research, you would see this is a tested theory, not just a concept or opinion on paper. Your claim that AI's won't do anything for prolactin is just plain wrong.....PERIOD. And by the way, if I was as small as you, I wouldn't post a pic of myself here. And I most certainly would never post a pic of myself on a site where I openly admit to buying, trafficking, manufacturing & using illegal drugs genius. Especially considering I face serious prison time if my employer even so much as catches me in the same room as a burning joint let alone actually seeking & using drugs. My anonymity is fat more important to me than the pride and arrogance that accompanies making tiny idiots look like tiny idiots. And for the record, my physique is almost identical to that pic of Branch, my traps are lacking a bit, but everything else is almost a motor image.

[The Bear 79]

I'm totally with you hoagie... I always advise people to run cabergoline or any prolactin antagonist (I prefer caber over all others) while running any 19-nor at ANY dose. Prolactin levels increasing is bad, BAD, BAD! Males should have as little prolactin in their bodies as possible. It's a hormone that's primarily associated with lactation - something we males do not do. Rising levels do not belong in us what so ever. There is literally no benefit to our bodies to having prolactin increased at all.

The only thing it's good for is if you want to make sure you never run out of milk for your coffee. Otherwise, always run a prolactin antagonist.

You should read the studies & do the research too. Education is power..............

[swm1972]

Hoagie, In case you missed the part about me actually using this method, I'll say it again, for nearly 3 months now, I have been controlling my prolactin levels with an AI. Funny how real life sometimes works EXACTLY how it reads on a research study. And again, you should beware of elevated prolactin levels from just about ANY steroid, not just 19 nors. If you actually take a moment to do the research I suggested, & quit being so offended / butt hurt about someone proving your advice wrong & for the most part inadequate, you would clearly see that you're just plain wrong in your claim. I would like to know more about the cycle that have you "prolactin gyno". What was the cycle? What was your bf%? What AI did you use, when did you start it, what dose did you start it & how long did you run it?

Just because it was effective for you doesn't mean it would be for him. Hell, it might not have even been effective for you. I've run 1 gram of deca a week before and did nothing to control prolactin nor estrogen and had zero gyno issues what so ever. Not everyone gets gyno, prolactin related or otherwise.

Have you ever have prolactin related sides that disappeared after using an AI? Are you sure thy were prolactin related and not estrogen related?

[tboney]

Please go ahead and prove me wrong... w/out links to what "you've read".

Man it is very simple... you said that "an AI will not do ANYTHING" for gyno related to deca or tren .... That is factually wrong!
Are you actually disputing that?

[hoagie]

Ok, 1st of all.. BEAR, you have just exposed your ignorance. "I face serious prison time if my employer even so much as catches me in the same room as a burning joint". So I'm assuming that your employer has no idea that you routinely log on to a discussion board called STEROID.COM. Ok jackass. You have ZERO anonimity on the internet, your IP is logged, anyone can find out exactly where you are and subsequently, who you are. (If you'd like I can post your info?) So your "I won't post a picture" excuse gave me a real good laugh. And judging by your defensive remarks that your physique is "almost identical to that of Branch" is a ****ing riot. You are the man, and everyone should know it!!!

Take notes people. After anyone reading the crap being spewed by Bear in this thread... I'd take anything he's ever said on this forum w/ a grain of salt.



TBONEY... I am disputing that crap 100%. If you have ever actually tried to lower prolactin w/ an AI you would have learned this already. (excuse edited coments, had you confused w/ another "knowledglable member") lol.

IN closing... yes I stand by all comments I've made. WHY? Because they've proven to work. Not in an article, not cause someone told me it would... because it actually worked. I didn't start this shit 3mths ago. I've had gyno for 10yrs now. I know how my body reacts to different chems. I find it absolutely hilarious that a couple of clowns hiding behind computer screens w/ cartoon avatars are trying to tell me , flat out that what I have personally done to myself, DIDN"T WORK! And that their simple solution (that they FOUND ON AN INTERNET ARTICLE) is all that I need to try. Oh, and even though I've tried it already, and it STILL DIDN"T ****ING WORK!!! But I am the one that needs to do more research! Wow.

[tboney]

Ok, 1st of all.. BEAR, you have just exposed your ignorance. "I face serious prison time if my employer even so much as catches me in the same room as a burning joint". So I'm assuming that your employer has no idea that you routinely log on to a discussion board called STEROID.COM. Ok jackass. You have ZERO anonimity on the internet, your IP is logged, anyone can find out exactly where you are and subsequently, who you are. (If you'd like I can post your info?) So your "I won't post a picture" excuse gave me a real good laugh. And judging by your defensive remarks that your physique is "almost identical to that of Branch" is a ****ing riot. You are the man, and everyone should know it!!!

Take notes people. After anyone reading the crap being spewed by Bear in this thread... I'd take anything he's ever said on this forum w/ a grain of salt.



TBONEY... I am disputing that crap 100%. If you have ever actually tried to lower prolactin w/ an AI you would have learned this already. Ha, your 21yrs old!! I was taking my 1st shot of test 2yrs before your were even born. Get back to your articles for now. Hit the gym, try some compounds, and get back to me in 10 or 15yrs.

IN closing... yes I stand by all comments I've made. WHY? Because they've proven to work. Not in an article, not cause someone told me it would... because it actually worked. I didn't start this shit 3mths ago. I've had gyno for 10yrs now. I know how my body reacts to different chems. I find it absolutely hilarious that a couple of clowns hiding behind computer screens w/ cartoon avatars are trying to tell me , flat out that what I have personally done to myself, DIDN"T WORK! And that their simple solution (that they FOUND ON AN INTERNET ARTICLE) is all that I need to try. Oh, and even though I've tried it already, and it STILL DIDN"T ****ING WORK!!! But I am the one that needs to do more research! Wow.

Are you a complete moron?? I am 45 years old and been, on and off cycling for many years. You dont know what you are talking about! As I said before ass-hat, making the statement that the use of an AI will not do anything in combatting progestin related gyno is just plain ignorant! If you have had gyno for ten years you might want to rethink the perception that you have this all figured out!

[hoagie]

Are you a complete moron?? I am 45 years old and been, on and off cycling for many years. You dont know what you are talking about! As I said before ass-hat, making the statement that the use of an AI will not do anything in combatting progestin related gyno is just plain ignorant! If you have had gyno for ten years you might want to rethink the perception that you have this all figured out!

Read the edit on the age comment old guy

Ok... lets go through this one more time for all you slow people.

I have had E2 induced gyno for the last 10yrs. I have kept it under control during all blast cycles, up until 3mths ago when I ran higher than normal deca w/ no prolactin control (yet w/ all AI's that I always use to keep nips small and not painful).

Following this so far? So... after doubling AI's and swaping over to letro at max dosage there is still no change in pain/swelling in my chest.

Add prami... abra cadabra. Swelling subsides after about 3days... pain is gone and lumps are shrinking. Please point out for me where all your scientific research comes in?

Please.

[tboney]

Read the edit on the age comment old guy

Ok... lets go through this one more time for all you slow people.

I have had E2 induced gyno for the last 10yrs. I have kept it under control during all blast cycles, up until 3mths ago when I ran higher than normal deca w/ no prolactin control (yet w/ all AI's that I always use to keep nips small and not painful).

Following this so far? So... after doubling AI's and swaping over to letro at max dosage there is still no change in pain/swelling in my chest.

Add prami... abra cadabra. Swelling subsides after about 3days... pain is gone and lumps are shrinking. Please point out for me where all your scientific research comes in?

Please.

I am done with this thread.......... best of luck to you.