1st cycle of sus, what gains can I expect?

**t-dogg** · 08-14-2012, 04:15 PM

Originally Posted by DanB

But what reaction would he have to a ester? Im not saying it isnt possible but you have to admit it is very very rare, I think it is overkill and sust is used for TRT in the UK and these patients may have never used any AAS in their life

Agreed. Very rare, but I think someones first time should be clear cut. IDK, I play on the safer side of things, well lol I give safer advice at least.

**MuscleInk** · 08-14-2012, 04:15 PM

Originally Posted by DanB

You will make gains on 250mg per week, some of our most respected members ran 250mg for their first cycle and were happy with results, personally I would run 500mg but I wouldnt say its a waste of time running 250mg, far from it, it roughly 4x's what your body produces naturally so I cant see how some people (not aimed at anybody just a general statement) seem to think you wont gain off it

In fact I can think of 2 well respected members who still use low dose cycles such as this and are happy with gains, one in particular just finished a low dose test/primo cycle who most people would of said was a waste of time, yet he was happy with his results and he has vast experience

Agreed. Consensus around here is primo must be 600mg weekly or nothing happens. The guys I workout with see results at 300mg/wk.

More isn't always better in some cases.

**t-dogg** · 08-14-2012, 04:17 PM

Originally Posted by 951thompson

But why? To maximize the prop in the sus? If thats the case why don't you just take prop? And there's only 60mg, sus acting ester, I'm happy with one shot a week ive got the winny to kickstart the cycle until the longer acting ester Kick in after two weeks, we'll see how I feel after a few weeks, if I feel I need to up the dose, I will.

Then why take sust to begin with? Youre not getting the full effect out of it any other way. Pinning once a week on sust doesnt make any sense at all imo. Once a week pins should be a long ester.

**DanB** · 08-14-2012, 04:20 PM

Originally Posted by MuscleInk

Agreed. Consensus around here is primo must be 600mg weekly or nothing happens. The guys I workout with see results at 300mg/wk.

More isn't always better in some cases.

Thats my on opinion on it, I have ran it at 525mg wk and wasnt all that happy but in saying that, everything else wasnt as good as it could of been I think you can get away with a lower dose if you have everything else in check, but in saying that I still plan on running a pretty hefty dose in the near future as Im curious to experience it and have seen with my own eyes the lean gains it attributes to when ran 1g plus

**MuscleInk** · 08-14-2012, 04:23 PM

Originally Posted by DanB

Thats my on opinion on it, I have ran it at 525mg wk and wasnt all that happy but in saying that, everything else wasnt as good as it could of been I think you can get away with a lower dose if you have everything else in check, but in saying that I still plan on running a pretty hefty dose in the near future as Im curious to experience it and have seen with my own eyes the lean gains it attributes to when ran 1g plus

Very true brother, and often primo is added as a stack so results from lower primo are likely coming from other compounds in the stack. I'm running primo at 300/wk now but tren at 450/wk so I'm sure there is a synergy with the two.

**DanB** · 08-14-2012, 04:25 PM

Originally Posted by t-dogg

Agreed. Very rare, but I think someones first time should be clear cut. IDK, I play on the safer side of things, well lol I give safer advice at least.

Yeah I agree with this, and in perfect world (which dosnt exist lol) or if OP hadnt already obtained then I would myself advise test e/c but my own view is that since he has it already ti just run as I suggested, unless he fancys eod pins which majority of newbies wouldnt fancy and for simplicity I think the least pins the better until you feel comfortable, I can now pin with my eyes closed and pin ED when I run prop, Im sure you are very comfortable pinning now aswell, but I remember a time when I used to dread it..........

**951thompson** · 08-14-2012, 04:26 PM

Originally Posted by MuscleInk

Not assumptions and no one is deliberately trying to antagonize you. We get requests like yours all day long. We offer help and much of the time the guys making the "ask" do what they want despite our suggestions. Then they come crawling back here when they have unpleasant side effects or lose most of their gains asking us for help to fix the mess they created.

I'm not implying you are one of those guys. We're just playing devil's advocate here making sure all the pieces are in place so your chance for success will increase exponentially. You can take the advice or leave it. It's completely your call but many of the guys offering their critique have achieved the success you seek and speak from personal experience.

.....incidentally, more than 95% of the people asking for help here all say their diet is perfect. Most of them have no idea what a perfect diet is or should be. If you are an exception to the norm, then you are further ahead than most guys in your position.

We're just trying to be helpful.

Oh I know I really appropriate all of your input, just I feel some people here are been a tad rude!

But thanks I appreciate your help :-)

**DanB** · 08-14-2012, 04:27 PM

Originally Posted by MuscleInk

Very true brother, and often primo is added as a stack so results from lower primo are likely coming from other compounds in the stack. I'm running primo at 300/wk now but tren at 450/wk so I'm sure there is a synergy with the two.

Keep me posted if you dont mind, interested on your opinion on current cycle versus test/tren alone

I actually planning on running (already have gear) 250mg test and 1400mg primo for a prolonged period in the new year, Im looking forward to it, but this is turning into a hijack so I'll shut up now lol

**951thompson** · 08-14-2012, 04:28 PM

Originally Posted by t-dogg

Then why take sust to begin with? Youre not getting the full effect out of it any other way. Pinning once a week on sust doesnt make any sense at all imo. Once a week pins should be a long ester.

Sus is a mix of long and shot esters!

**DanB** · 08-14-2012, 04:37 PM

Originally Posted by 951thompson

Sus is a mix of long and shot esters!

Correct but I think the point he is making is that the short esters (roughly 1/3 of blend if I remember correctly) not being used as effeciently as possible

**NaturalJohnny** · 08-14-2012, 04:41 PM

Well for what it's worth OP, I made good gains just by getting on TRT at 200mg/week of test cyp.

I was 5'10" 165 pounds in January this year and I'm now at around 190. Strength and muscle mass increased a lot. I didn't even really change my workouts. I just got stronger so I kept adding weight. I ate everything in sight though even when I wasn't hungry. I don't know what my body fat was before or now but my abs have remained visible when flexed the entire time.

**DanB** · 08-14-2012, 04:44 PM

^^^^^^

good info but the difference is that if you needed TRT your natty test levels were low and you would of found it hard to gain before TRT and now your just reaping the benefits of a normal (or prob higher then normal on 200mg TRT) test levels

**951thompson** · 08-14-2012, 04:45 PM

Originally Posted by DanB

Correct but I think the point he is making is that the short esters (roughly 1/3 of blend if I remember correctly) not being used as effeciently as possible

Yes but it's only a small amount of prop, which works for 3 days then the second ester kicks in which lasts for five days -then the long acting ester kicks in giving you a steady release of test over two weeks, the actual recommended way to take it is once a fortnight

**951thompson** · 08-14-2012, 04:49 PM

Originally Posted by NaturalJohnny

Well for what it's worth OP, I made good gains just by getting on TRT at 200mg/week of test cyp.

I was 5'10" 165 pounds in January this year and I'm now at around 190. Strength and muscle mass increased a lot. I didn't even really change my workouts. I just got stronger so I kept adding weight. I ate everything in sight though even when I wasn't hungry. I don't know what my body fat was before or now but my abs have remained visible when flexed the entire time.

That's good to hear mate and well done :-)

**DanB** · 08-14-2012, 04:49 PM

Originally Posted by 951thompson

Yes but it's only a small amount of prop, which works for 3 days then the second ester kicks in which lasts for five days -then the long acting ester kicks in giving you a steady release of test over two weeks, the actual recommended way to take it is once a fortnight

For TRT but that is different to cycling, you want to keep your levels as high and stable as possible which wont happen due to esters coming in and out

**MuscleInk** · 08-14-2012, 04:55 PM

Originally Posted by DanB

Keep me posted if you dont mind, interested on your opinion on current cycle versus test/tren alone

I actually planning on running (already have gear) 250mg test and 1400mg primo for a prolonged period in the new year, Im looking forward to it, but this is turning into a hijack so I'll shut up now lol

Definitely will. So far strength is increasing and I'm leaning out a bit. I'd love to see what 1400mg of primo does. WOW!

**951thompson** · 08-14-2012, 04:56 PM

Originally Posted by DanB

For TRT but that is different to cycling, you want to keep your levels as high and stable as possible which wont happen due to esters coming in and out

I've got the winny to help until the longer acting ester kickstarts, have u ever tried nandrotest? Thinking of giving it a go next cycle at 500mg

**NaturalJohnny** · 08-14-2012, 04:58 PM

Originally Posted by DanB

^^^^^^

good info but the difference is that if you needed TRT your natty test levels were low and you would of found it hard to gain before TRT and now your just reaping the benefits of a normal (or prob higher then normal on 200mg TRT) test levels

You're probably right. But I was still pretty surprised what such a relatively small dose of test can achieve. My levels went from the low 200s to around 600 on a 180-*** scale if I recall.

**fit2bOld** · 08-14-2012, 05:12 PM

Originally Posted by 951thompson

This is my first ever cycle, I didn't want start to heavy, I've read online that I should see decent gains from 250mg and that its best to start on a low dose that way I will see good gains from my next cycle of 500mg per week

We will see lol

You probbally make that much test on your own. Do what you will a couple other experienced guys seem to agree. Let us know how that worked out.

**>Good Luck<** · 08-14-2012, 05:39 PM

Hey 951, have you read the sustanon educational thread??

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...houldnt-use-it

It's a long read but you will start to see information that applies directly to you. Sust was my first cycle and if you read up a lot, you'll realize sust is very outdated and your de-esterfied test amount is pretty lame once you break it down. This may be a little complicated to understand so I will go grab the link for atominis understanding esters thread. Also killer education!

Good luck!

**>Good Luck<** · 08-14-2012, 05:42 PM

K check this out too. Understand that test is test, only after the ester is removed... Of your 250mg sustanon , how much real test r you getting?

Answer: not nearly enough.

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...-their-purpose!

**>Good Luck<** · 08-14-2012, 05:52 PM

Now after digging a little deeper, I've come up with this. 250mg of test cyp(my choice) is equal to about 173mg of de-esterfied test. Sustanon 250mg is equal to about 173mg of de-esterfied test. What's the difference? Well, cyp will release over a period of 8-10 days... This sounds long, but compared to sust, which will release over a period of 14-21days. To my understanding, if cyp will release over 10 days, you will have 17.3mg daily. If sust releases over 21 days, you'll have less than 8mg of test releasing daily. In addition, the prop in sust can be expected to be used up in 3 days, leaving that amount (most potent amount) of test out of the equation...

All sounds like bad news to me...

Good luck!

**DanB** · 08-14-2012, 05:59 PM

Originally Posted by 951thompson

I've got the winny to help until the longer acting ester kickstarts, have u ever tried nandrotest? Thinking of giving it a go next cycle at 500mg

by sciroxx yeah?

i have used deca but dont like blends, you cant adjust the dose of one or the other, i prefer to run them individually

**951thompson** · 08-15-2012, 07:29 AM

Originally Posted by DanB

by sciroxx yeah?

i have used deca but dont like blends, you cant adjust the dose of one or the other, i prefer to run them individually

Im thinking of trying pro chem tri test 400 next cycle, it's w blend of test e test c and test D sounds alright :-)

**DanB** · 08-15-2012, 07:40 AM

Originally Posted by Live for the PUMP

How did you get your answer of 2120??

If he eats 180g protein, 400g carbs and 40g fat his Calories would be 2,680. There is 4 Calories per gram of protein or Carb and 9 Calories per gram of fat. Not trying to call ya out just curious how you came up with 2120...

is it? i tried add it up in my head

mabey my maths is wrong but didnt think I would of been that wrong, thats why I always being left short money haha ah well thank god for calculators......

**DanB** · 08-15-2012, 07:43 AM

Originally Posted by 951thompson

Im thinking of trying pro chem tri test 400 next cycle, it's w blend of test e test c and test D sounds alright :-)

concentrate on this cycle your getting ahead of yourself

**t-dogg** · 08-15-2012, 08:40 AM

Originally Posted by 951thompson

Sus is a mix of long and shot esters!

Im pretty sure I know what sust is lol. My point being is you pin it once a week. So that being said, 1/4 of the Test is now pretty much useless in most peoples eyes.

**t-dogg** · 08-15-2012, 08:42 AM

Originally Posted by DanB

Im sure you are very comfortable pinning now aswell, but I remember a time when I used to dread it..........

Ill never forget my first pin. Took me 30mins or more. Shaking, looking in the mirror, shaking more, what a man I was....

**951thompson** · 08-20-2012, 09:21 AM

Originally Posted by DanB

concentrate on this cycle your getting ahead of yourself

I took your advice and bumped up my calories to 4000, good news is I've gained 8lbs of lean muscle, bad news is I've also gained 4lbs of fat, im now 14.5% bf do you think I should reduce my calories?

**West Coast Winner** · 08-28-2012, 10:35 AM

Originally Posted by t-dogg

Ill never forget my first pin. Took me 30mins or more. Shaking, looking in the mirror, shaking more, what a man I was....

Hahaha so funny! Ya I know its bad that iv completed one sust cycle... but I had the sane thing going on lmao. I was all sweating in the bathroom and had that pin in my ass for nearly 5 minutes haha