Didn't recover. Need HELP plz

[AD]

I always thought that pct drugs, or all drugs for that matter, only have an effect in the body when their serum concentration is above a certain threshold level. Clomid and nolva can only block the negative feedback of estro when taken daily during pct, maybe till a few days after, as the drugs get eliminated from the system. After elimination or excretion is complete, the effect is gone, and estro's negative feedback is back in play.

[jimmyinkedup]

I always thought that pct drugs, or all drugs for that matter, only have an effect in the body when their serum concentration is above a certain threshold level. Clomid and nolva can only block the negative feedback of estro when taken daily during pct, maybe till a few days after, as the drugs get eliminated from the system. After elimination or excretion is complete, the effect is gone, and estro's negative feedback is back in play.

I think thats accurate.
I also agree there would be a peak in test then a valley then a stabilization.
ie : 1- using serms - test up / 2- cease serms test drop / 3- homeostasis
How long this will take is somewhat interdependent - at least the last one for sure and also the effect/extent of negative feedback in the 2nd one is as well.
Also my reasoning for waiting on blood work (and advising the same) was and is you want to reach that 3rd stage ..a stabilized , accurate number and true reflection of your recovery. Of course a baseline is needed ie: pre cycle blood work.

[AD]

I think thats accurate.
I also agree there would be a peak in test then a valley then a stabilization.
ie : 1- using serms - test up / 2- cease serms test drop / 3- homeostasis
How long this will take is somewhat interdependent - at least the last one for sure and also the effect/extent of negative feedback in the 2nd one is as well.

Thanks for confirming.

But the problem with op's case is he used high doses and 5wks of pct. Yet his LH &FSH are still low 4 wks after completing pct. Which is why i felt that his pct has failed.

[Bonaparte]

For someone as science based as you Bonaparte thats quite the speculative leap to make. Hell we dont even know his pre cycle test levels for Christ sake....
Im surprised you would definitively say that given all the unknowns and variables and interdependent response to steroids and hpta restoration of function , very surprised. Seems almost odd for you.

I will concede that I assumed he had normal test levels prior to starting, since he made no mention of low test symptoms. Also, I thought I say him post that his TT was 27 or something ridiculous, a problem that no guy could be oblivious to.

So ok, there are a few possibilities:
1) the basic test cycle really messed up his pituitary
2) he had really low test to begin with
3) The SERMs are bunk.

Either way, this isn't characteristic of a normal HPTA recovery process (something is wrong, his levels should be much higher if he is going to recover to normal levels) and he should redo a PCT immediately (preferably with SERMs that aren't now suspect to the OP, so that we kill 2 birds with one stone).

[Lil man]

I will concede that I assumed he had normal test levels prior to starting, since he made no mention of low test symptoms. Also, I thought I say him post that his TT was 27 or something ridiculous, a problem that no guy could be oblivious to.

So ok, there are a few possibilities:
1) the basic test cycle really messed up his pituitary
2) he had really low test to begin with
3) The SERMs are bunk.

Either way, this isn't characteristic of a normal HPTA recovery process (something is wrong, his levels should be much higher if he is going to recover to normal levels) and he should redo a PCT immediately (preferably with SERMs that aren't now suspect to the OP, so that we kill 2 birds with one stone).

I apologize inked up first of all for being a little pissy earlier. It's very frustrating to take everyone's advice and read for months and everytime I make a post there is someone sag that there was no research involved pre cycle. And Bonaparte, do you recommends the basic protocol of 100/100/150/50 clomid and 40/40/20/20 nolva? Or should j maybe try a different approach?

[jimmyinkedup]

I apologize inked up first of all for being a little pissy earlier. It's very frustrating to take everyone's advice and read for months and everytime I make a post there is someone sag that there was no research involved pre cycle.

Its all good. I apologize for making that insinuation. I think now its most important to look at where you are and what you need to do to fix it. I understand the thought occurring to you that perhaps your pct was bad, but there are 2 reasons I cant get my head around that.
1- I know things don't always work out as we would like when it comes to this particular area. There are too many interdependent variables and also I think 90% of all people, if they got blood work , would be shocked at the results. Granted yours is a very bad scenario , but it does happen.
2- The thing that comes to my mind about the pct products being bad, and what I cant get past,is this. I have no idea how much of what products arr sells, but if I had to guess clomid and nolva would be a the top of the list as far as popular items. 1 out of 10 people who have a good experience with a product will share that information. 6 out of 10 people who have a bad experience will share that information. On the board I see a lot of positive feedback ..and virtually no negative feedback. This is the first post i ever recall seeing questioning these 2 products. I just think if bunk nolva and clomid were being sold the board would be flooded with posts saying so. Contrary to what some may think the posts about such topics are not sheltered or protected by staff (as evidenced here). I'm not trying to single you out or make you feel bad ... I am just pointing out an observation.

So anyway on to the solution. Whichever way you choose to go as far as protocol I wish you all the best bro.

[AD]

The other possible explanations are:
1. Op had low test even before cycling.
2. Op's hpta was damaged or cannot recover from the cycle.

So op, if you run another pct with new drugs and still dont recover, then you may have to accept that one of the above scenerio is true.

[Lil man]

The other possible explanations are:
1. Op had low test even before cycling.
2. Op's hpta was damaged or cannot recover from the cycle.

So op, if you run another pct with new drugs and still dont recover, then you may have to accept that one of the above scenerio is true.

I understand. I am like you guys tho. Many people won't come forward and call out a sponsor on something so hard to prove. As already stated many people don't get bloodwork done and don't question the product tho their test may be low. Also, the clomid an nolva aren't the only products in question either. I know their cialis is legit but what's easier to fake? Cialis or nolvadex ?

[jimmyinkedup]

I understand. I am like you guys tho. Many people won't come forward and call out a sponsor on something so hard to prove. As already stated many people don't get bloodwork done and don't question the product tho their test may be low. Also, the clomid an nolva aren't the only products in question either. I know their cialis is legit but what's easier to fake? Cialis or nolvadex?

Well I dont think you should necessarily be commended for "calling out a sponsor" (or anyone for that matter) when as has been mentioned there are other factors that could be causing this issue.
Also as I mentioned you are the only person that has made such a "call out" on these products. Also as I pointed out 60% of unsatisfied customers would do so and only 10 % of satisfied customers would commend. I see alot of praise here for arr.
To think that all the people using these serms are so inexperienced and ignorant as to not know if they are doing what they are supposed too or mimicking previous pcts is pretty nearsighted as well imo.
This is starting to look like more of a personal issue than it is a request for a solution to your problem. I think you need to get past it (thats really the only responsible thing to do given you dont know) and looks towords how to fix this. Also take a good hard look at what i stated about the products and peoples responses too them and from an unbiased point of view realize this may very well not be the cause of your issue.
Again I wish you all the best bro. What are you going to do ?

[Lil man]

Well I dont think you should necessarily be commended for "calling out a sponsor" (or anyone for that matter) when as has been mentioned there are other factors that could be causing this issue.
Also as I mentioned you are the only person that has made such a "call out" on these products. Also as I pointed out 60% of unsatisfied customers would do so and only 10 % of satisfied customers would commend. I see alot of praise here for arr.
To think that all the people using these serms are so inexperienced and ignorant as to not know if they are doing what they are supposed too or mimicking previous pcts is pretty nearsighted as well imo.
This is starting to look like more of a personal issue than it is a request for a solution to your problem. I think you need to get past it (thats really the only responsible thing to do given you dont know) and looks towords how to fix this. Also take a good hard look at what i stated about the products and peoples responses too them and from an unbiased point of view realize this may very well not be the cause of your issue.
Again I wish you all the best bro. What are you going to do ?

I'm not wanting to be commended and I was just saying that it's funny that quite a few people have pointed out it's a possibility. I'm gonna do the very best to prove AR-R 's legitimacy. If it weren't for so many people praising AR-R I wouldn't have known to use them either. I see very little negative feedback on this board but I've ha a couple of pms about the matter so far with people explaining their situation as well. I'm not trying to beat a dead horse to death but I'm also not gonna just move on either. I will begin another full pct this weekend with serms from another lab and check bloods possibly in two weeks as we know there should be a relatively noticeable spik due to stimulation. If bloodwork shows stimulation worth noting I will show results. If not, I'm gonna do everyone a favor and spread the word. If I had a personal issue with AR-R I wouldn't have given them as much money as I have I can promise you that. I know it's possibly me but I've had 3 of 4 products questionable from them. Two of which could be me. But clen at 160 mcg would give effects to anyone IMO. I thank everyone who posted with help. I'm not a very stubborn person but I'm learning as I go by experience. I didn't start this thread to bash anyone but rather to fix a problem. Was I concerned it could be fake? Yeah but only after others pointed out that I should have higher test results did I start "calling out" anyone. If my tests prove it's me then I will most certainly apologize publicly and defend AR-R to the fullest as I just want a good product and for everyone's safety to be first. I do want to say though that this could be a very good learning experience for people like myself who are new to this. Get bloodwork pre and post cycle and know what your hpta is doing

[jimmyinkedup]

I'm not wanting to be commended and I was just saying that it's funny that quite a few people have pointed out it's a possibility. I'm gonna do the very best to prove AR-R's legitimacy. If it weren't for so many people praising AR-R I wouldn't have known to use them either. I see very little negative feedback on this board but I've ha a couple of pms about the matter so far with people explaining their situation as well. I'm not trying to beat a dead horse to death but I'm also not gonna just move on either. I will begin another full pct this weekend with serms from another lab and check bloods possibly in two weeks as we know there should be a relatively noticeable spik due to stimulation. If bloodwork shows stimulation worth noting I will show results. If not, I'm gonna do everyone a favor and spread the word. If I had a personal issue with AR-R I wouldn't have given them as much money as I have I can promise you that. I know it's possibly me but I've had 3 of 4 products questionable from them. Two of which could be me. But clen at 160 mcg would give effects to anyone IMO. I thank everyone who posted with help. I'm not a very stubborn person but I'm learning as I go by experience. I didn't start this thread to bash anyone but rather to fix a problem. Was I concerned it could be fake? Yeah but only after others pointed out that I should have higher test results did I start "calling out" anyone. If my tests prove it's me then I will most certainly apologize publicly and defend AR-R to the fullest as I just want a good product and for everyone's safety to be first. I do want to say though that this could be a very good learning experience for people like myself who are new to this. Get bloodwork pre and post cycle and know what your hpta is doing

And realistically running another pct will prove what ? so if it works perhaps you are just someone that has difficulty recovering.
Eh either way I'll leave you to your thread. I guess im just in tune with this type of thing because i have my own business ..its how i feed my family. If someone was going to bash me or my work Id want to make damn sure it was legitimate and in this case that can in no way be proven. Nor will it be proven if a second pct works more effectively in all honesty.
Also I should add a fairly recent experience with arr made me a supporter of them and their products. I ws taking t3 from another research company ..it was making me feel like shit and not doing much..at all. i hadn't taken t3 in a long time..even posted here about how i felt etc. I ordered t3 from arr ..had it in 3 days and the product was excellent as were the results.
I do totally agree with the last sentence in your post..its good advice.
Either way I wish you all the best in your recovery.

[AD]

I dont think this should become an exercise to prove whose gear is good and whose is not. A lot of things can happen to the drugs that may affect their efficacy after they leave the factory. Problems in storage? Problems in delivery? Who cares really. Op, if you can recover, thats the most important thing.

Maybe the postman opened your bottle for inspection and accidentally sneezed into it?

One last question to op. With your current levels of test and LH/FSH, do you feel any discomfort? Or you feel no difference, now and precycle?

[Lil man]

Ok jimmyinkedup I really do appreciate you. I hope I don't run you off this thread as I feel you have a Loy of good advice that I could lean from. It's not that I'm listening Im just in unknown territory at this point and want to make very sure I'm doing the right thing. Asiandude I feel really really tired all the time and libido is non existent. This is why j wanted to have bloodwork to begin with. Also in the gym my muscles feel fatigued from start to finish. I only workout at 75% the capacity I could pre cycle and my diet is exactly same as on cycle and intensity is up as much as possible. I'm resting plenty but nap from when I get home to time for bed due to being tired. I just feel different. My body is definatley telling me somethin is wrong.

[AD]

Try a new pct and see how it goes. What more can you do. Good luck!

[binsser]

it all takes time ull be alright eventually!

[binsser]

and just to add i done a massive tren and test first cycle with no hcg /ai/or pct and i was shutdown quite badly but it did return in the end so you will be ok just give it time mate!

[Lil man]

Binnser thanks for the encouragement. I've started a second pct. I was prepared to never recover because I know it's a possibility. Then mid cycle my wife brings up that she all of the sudden wants kids. So recovery is a must. I know it's possible even on trt but I like my chances better if I recover.

[zleeb82]

Binnser thanks for the encouragement. I've started a second pct. I was prepared to never recover because I know it's a possibility. Then mid cycle my wife brings up that she all of the sudden wants kids. So recovery is a must. I know it's possible even on trt but I like my chances better if I recover.

are you using the same stuff from ar-r or did you get pharm grade?

[Lil man]

Another research site. Not sure where to buy pharm grade.

[bigpapabuff]

I didn't have bloodwork done pre cycle. I know. Anyway. And the pct I used is pretty standard isn't it. Everyone here seems to use the same protocol or very similar. I didn't have access to hcg when I started cycle. I have a place to actually get shit now. Too late probably. Should I hit that hcg and go through another pct? My sex drive is shit. Never want sex right now. And I agree that a large majority thinks that you should be recovered by this time. Just a little depressed over it to be honest

VERY dumb move and everyone in this thread seems to have missed and the only point that really matters.

That means you could be fully recovered FOR YOU! and not even know it.
why on earth would not you test before hand to know where you should be.
Now you won't know, regardless of what products you use.
For all you know you HAVE low test regardlessand maybe needed to see a doc before hand...

Wish you luck though!

[bigpapabuff]

and just to add i done a massive tren and test first cycle with no hcg/ai/or pct and i was shutdown quite badly but it did return in the end so you will be ok just give it time mate!

Not a very smart move on your part... BUT true, even without PCT YOU WILL RECOVER IF YOU WHERE GOING TO!!
PCT ONLY speeds up and lends a HAND.
It is NOT a MUST, though very stupid not to because you then have a longer recovery and possibly more lost gains.

[Lil man]

VERY dumb move and everyone in this thread seems to have missed and the only point that really matters.

That means you could be fully recovered FOR YOU! and not even know it.
why on earth would not you test before hand to know where you should be.
Now you won't know, regardless of what products you use.
For all you know you HAVE low test regardlessand maybe needed to see a doc before hand...

Wish you luck though!

Well it's like this. I felt fine then and don't now and my test levels are low. I would assume that my levels were much higher and now they aren't so that's the reason for all the "low test symptoms" I'm having that I didnt have 5 months ago. See, I even pointed out it wasn't very smart and even recommended newbies to have bloodwork done pre cycle in an earlier post but you probably didn't read all that. I made some mistakes true but even if my test was at 219 before the cycle then wtf do I do to get them higher before resorting to trt? I thank you for wishing me luck tho

[gearbox]

well have another run a pct.

We do not know your pct was bunk!

You could fall under the category of the few who do most things right and do not bounce back like many do. There is no telling who will or wont bounce back.

good luck

[Lil man]

I agree gearbox. It's a possibility. We shall see and thank you