Do we start pct too early?

**MickeyKnox** · 04-08-2013, 06:55 PM

Originally Posted by BBJT200

@ 1gram/week. test e
7 days later---> 500mg still in your bloodstream
7 days later---> 250mg (typical start pct date...)
7 days later--->125mg
7 days later--->62.5mg (this is when you should start pct)

If you start PCT at day 14, you're half way into your pct before you actually do anything useful.

500mg/week test E
7 days later----> 250mg
7 days later---> 125mg
7 days later---> 62.5mg (this is when you should start pct)

PCT timing IS affected when your dosages are higher. It's simple math. Mickey apparently disagrees, so please post something to back your point.

Test E half life is closer to 5 days for most people. But as you are aware, everyone is different. And if you do your own research you'll see data suggesting between 5-7days. Also, the amount of exogenous testosterone plays a key role as well. If a user runs 2 grams of test per wk, then i agree that the starting time will vary considerably. But if feel that you're contributing to this forum by arguing standard protocols, i can assure you youre not. Anyone can do that. These are simply safe starting points for the recreational user. I can argue my own information anytime i like because it simply doesn't fit for everyone, particularly for advanced users.

Are you an advanced user? If you are, you would know from experience what you require on cycle to properly and safely build muscle for you and how to properly run a PCT according to YOUR experience and amounts of oils/AAS.

So what is your point? Other than pointing out the obvious.

BTW,

500mg Test E

5 days later = 250
5 days later = 125
5 days later = 62.50 Close enough for you smart guy? I'll stick to 14 days - its been working forever.

**BBJT200** · 04-08-2013, 09:53 PM

Originally Posted by MickeyKnox

Test E half life is closer to 5 days for most people. But as you are aware, everyone is different. And if you do your own research you'll see data suggesting between 5-7days. Also, the amount of exogenous testosterone plays a key role as well. If a user runs 2 grams of test per wk, then i agree that the starting time will vary considerably. But if feel that you're contributing to this forum by arguing standard protocols, i can assure you youre not. Anyone can do that. These are simply safe starting points for the recreational user. I can argue my own information anytime i like because it simply doesn't fit for everyone, particularly for advanced users.

Are you an advanced user? If you are, you would know from experience what you require on cycle to properly and safely build muscle for you and how to properly run a PCT according to YOUR experience and amounts of oils/AAS.

So what is your point? Other than pointing out the obvious.

BTW,

500mg Test E

5 days later = 250
5 days later = 125
5 days later = 62.50 Close enough for you smart guy? I'll stick to 14 days - its been working forever.

Being on TRT, I have zero reason to do PCT personally.

From various articles i've read, test E has a half life of anywhere from 5-12 days. now, that's quite a range...Where do you come up with 'for most users, it's 5 days?'
I do feel that I am contributing positively to this forum by arguing your so called standard procedures.
How the hell do you think anything in the world progresses? Debate.

" I can argue my own information anytime i like because it simply doesn't fit for everyone"
You should include this little disclaimer when giving out advice. By making statements such as you did here,

:so for enanthate its still pct after 14days from last pin?
Absolutely.:

You lead the user to believe that there is only one possible answer. It's 14 days, end of story. Well buddy, it's not the only possibility.
If you're going to give advice on a subject that is different for everyone, don't make absolute statements like you consistently do. Try adding in some useful tips such as, you may need to start pct a little later due to the fact that your body may metabolize the hormone at a slower/faster rate than others. Try being less arrogant about what you "know," and more helpful to those who need it. That's what this board is here for, after all.

The point is, 5 days is cutting it very short. 7 days is in the middle of the range, @ 21 days for pct start time...I think you can see what I'm getting at.
This thread is about people starting pct too soon. Yes, people are starting PCT too soon. ESPECIALLY FOR LONG ESTERED, HIGH DOSAGE CYCLES.

**bigsiv** · 04-09-2013, 12:33 AM

Originally Posted by BBJT200

Being on TRT, I have zero reason to do PCT personally.

From various articles i've read, test E has a half life of anywhere from 5-12 days. now, that's quite a range...Where do you come up with 'for most users, it's 5 days?'
I do feel that I am contributing positively to this forum by arguing your so called standard procedures.
How the hell do you think anything in the world progresses? Debate.

" I can argue my own information anytime i like because it simply doesn't fit for everyone"
You should include this little disclaimer when giving out advice. By making statements such as you did here,

:so for enanthate its still pct after 14days from last pin?
Absolutely.:

You lead the user to believe that there is only one possible answer. It's 14 days, end of story. Well buddy, it's not the only possibility.
If you're going to give advice on a subject that is different for everyone, don't make absolute statements like you consistently do. Try adding in some useful tips such as, you may need to start pct a little later due to the fact that your body may metabolize the hormone at a slower/faster rate than others. Try being less arrogant about what you "know," and more helpful to those who need it. That's what this board is here for, after all.

The point is, 5 days is cutting it very short. 7 days is in the middle of the range, @ 21 days for pct start time...I think you can see what I'm getting at.
This thread is about people starting pct too soon. Yes, people are starting PCT too soon. ESPECIALLY FOR LONG ESTERED, HIGH DOSAGE CYCLES.

Although I would never try and piss Mickey Knox off I do agree with this post. I do think the standard pct protocol should be adapted for each cycle and individual IMO this may be why some people struggle with keeping gains and mood etc. I don't really know I ain't a scientist when I asked the question I stated. 'For educational purposes'
Please keep discussing because I think this could be a good thread.
Atomoni I would love to see an example if your formulae as well so I can make my own informed decision. Thanx guys!

**MickeyKnox** · 04-09-2013, 09:24 AM

Originally Posted by BBJT200

Being on TRT, I have zero reason to do PCT personally. So youre just here to argue for nothing?

From various articles i've read, test E has a half life of anywhere from 5-12 days. now, that's quite a range...Where do you come up with 'for most users, it's 5 days?'
I do feel that I am contributing positively to this forum by arguing your so called standard procedures.
How the hell do you think anything in the world progresses? Debate.

" I can argue my own information anytime i like because it simply doesn't fit for everyone"
You should include this little disclaimer when giving out advice. By making statements such as you did here,

:so for enanthate its still pct after 14days from last pin?
Absolutely.:

You lead the user to believe that there is only one possible answer. It's 14 days, end of story. Well buddy, it's not the only possibility. I didn't say i was. Thats my opinion. Im not your buddy.
If you're going to give advice on a subject that is different for everyone, don't make absolute statements like you consistently do. Try adding in some useful tips such as, you may need to start pct a little later due to the fact that your body may metabolize the hormone at a slower/faster rate than others. Thanks for the advice. Perhaps you could do your own research and let us all know what youve come up with. Try being less arrogant about what you "know," and more helpful to those who need it. That's what this board is here for, after all.

The point is, 5 days is cutting it very short. 7 days is in the middle of the range, @ 21 days for pct start time...I think you can see what I'm getting at.
This thread is about people starting pct too soon. Yes, people are starting PCT too soon. ESPECIALLY FOR LONG ESTERED, HIGH DOSAGE CYCLES. This is YOUR opinion based upon what?? Support your claims.

First of all, Im not sure i understand where you're coming from here. Your recent comment, "your so called standard procedures." clearly shows disdain for me for some reason. For the record, these protocols have been around a lot longer than you and i have. I agree with them and support them. Are you angry that i choose to support them based on personal experience and empirical data. Are you holding me responsible because you dont agree? Are you kidding me? You sound like you have an axe to grind.

There's absolute nothing wrong with debating anything on here. But it seems to me that you're only intention is to argue for the sake of arguing. If your intentions are as true and aligned as you propose, then please provide something we can read to support your statements. Otherwise, youre not contributing, youre simply a guy on TRT who doers not include PCT and wants to argue for the sake of arguing with empty statements. I'm more than happy to listen (read) what you have to say provided you include at least one article, one personal experience, one piece of data, so that we all may have a read and formulate opinions based upon solid evidence. Is this too much ask?

Incidentally, do you have any independent thoughts of your own backed by experience, or empirical data, and clinical studies? Or do you plan on simply arguing with me and making empty claims for the rest of this "debate"?

**BBJT200** · 04-09-2013, 01:22 PM

Originally Posted by MickeyKnox

First of all, Im not sure i understand where you're coming from here. Your recent comment, "your so called standard procedures." clearly shows disdain for me for some reason. For the record, these protocols have been around a lot longer than you and i have. I agree with them and support them. Are you angry that i choose to support them based on personal experience and empirical data. Are you holding me responsible because you dont agree? Are you kidding me? You sound like you have an axe to grind.

There's absolute nothing wrong with debating anything on here. But it seems to me that you're only intention is to argue for the sake of arguing. If your intentions are as true and aligned as you propose, then please provide something we can read to support your statements. Otherwise, youre not contributing, youre simply a guy on TRT who doers not include PCT and wants to argue for the sake of arguing with empty statements. I'm more than happy to listen (read) what you have to say provided you include at least one article, one personal experience, one piece of data, so that we all may have a read and formulate opinions based upon solid evidence. Is this too much ask?

Incidentally, do you have any independent thoughts of your own backed by experience, or empirical data, and clinical studies? Or do you plan on simply arguing with me and making empty claims for the rest of this "debate"?

Yeah, you're right. I'm just arguing for the sake of arguing.

Mickey, you're just a bully with an attitude problem.
I don't think you'll listen...but here goes

Examples:

Other users have mentioned that they felt they still had test in their system well into their PCT. Even in this thread.

My buddy who did his first cycle with me had the same experience; week 3 after his last injection @ 500mg/week(One week into starting PCT) is when he felt the typical PCT symptoms associated with lack of exogenous testosterone and natural testosterone

Data tables showing the half-life of enanthate ester is anywhere from 5-14 days. Sure, you could estimate it at 5. You could estimate it at 7.
The point is, it's going to be different for everyone. The 'established protocol' is outdated and too simplistic. The answer to the op's question: Yes, the majority of us are starting pct too soon.

People need to be informed that "pct at day 14 is the standard, but does not fit everyone. Here's what to look for, and how you can learn and adjust to what is right for your body"
If the half-life of test E actually is 5 days, then day 15 is when pct should start at the earliest. Depending on cycle length, you have a cumulative effect of steadily rising levels of androgens in the blood. PCT needs to be tuned for dosage, length of cycle, and the user's own response to pct based on experience.

@500mg
If it's 7 days, there should be a minimum of 21 days to start PCT.
If it's 9 days, there should be a minimum of 28 days to start PCT.

SO:
Either wait to start PCT a bit longer, or extend your dosage of nolva/clomid out a few extra weeks.
For beginner cycles, we should be encouraging people to do a protocol such as this:

500mg test E, 12 weeks.
Upon completion of the cycle, continue your AI dose.
When you feel the symptoms of low T, mark that spot on the calendar and adjust future cycles' pct start dates accordingly. Start PCT a few days prior to hitting those low-t symptoms.
This would be a good way to get a baseline for each individual's half-life of a specific ester, and would help the user learn by feel.

**MickeyKnox** · 04-09-2013, 01:46 PM

Originally Posted by BBJT200

Yeah, you're right. I'm just arguing for the sake of arguing.

Mickey, you're just a bully with an attitude problem.
I don't think you'll listen...but here goes Get real. Dont even go down that road. You started this and i will finish it, i promise you that son.

Examples:

Other users have mentioned that they felt they still had test in their system well into their PCT. Even in this thread. Show me where i said that you need to be on empty, like your head is right now? Where? Show me? Put up a link? I KNOW you will have exogenous amounts of Test in your system when PCT begins, if you follow the PCT protocols that I AGREE with.

My buddy who did his first cycle with me had the same experience; week 3 after his last injection @ 500mg/week(One week into starting PCT) is when he felt the typical PCT symptoms associated with lack of exogenous testosterone and natural testosterone "My buddy" LOL My "buddy"?? Is this what youre bringing to the table? What your "buddy" said?? Are you joking?? Are you relying on what your "buddy" did to support your implied claims of my apparent irresponsible advice? who did his first cycle with me had the same experience; week 3 after his last injection @ 500mg/week(One week into starting PCT) is when he felt the typical PCT symptoms associated with lack of exogenous testosterone and natural testosterone

Data tables showing the half-life of enanthate ester is anywhere from 5-14 days. Sure, you could estimate it at 5. You could estimate it at 7.
The point is, it's going to be different for everyone. No shit Sherlock. EVERY drug out there is different for everyone! The 'established protocol' is outdated and too simplistic. Really? The support this ****ing claim or shut your ****ing mouth. Why is that so difficult for you to accept? You call me a bully but yet you are unable to support your claims! Do you have ANYTHING...ANYTHING AT ALL beside your "buddy" to support ANY of your claims? DO YOU!? No you don't. Why? because youre nothing but a 21 years old punk who has ZERO knowledge and experience about recovery plans. At 21 years old, please share with this Board your world wide experience on PCT. The answer to the op's question: Yes, the majority of us are starting pct too soon. Youre nothing but a parrot. You read something somewhere and now you're touting it to be your own thoughts and idea. **** you if you think youre going to paint me like an irresponsible person. I have more compassion for people and their health than you could possibly imagine. And my contributions and reputation stand alone.

People need to be informed that "pct at day 14 is the standard, but does not fit everyone. Here's what to look for, and how you can learn and adjust to what is right for your body" Perhaps you should write a letter to Bayer and tell them to write that on their aspirin profiles as well. Of course it doesn't fit EVERYONE. BUT..it DOES fit most people who use their product for what it is intended for...the AVERAGE HEADACHE....like the one your giving me. Bayer aspirin is NOT for excruciating migraines. Do i REALLY need to explain all this to you? The answer is, YES I DO because youre only 21 years old with NO REAL LIFE AAS experiences to relay on. You're relying on your "buddy".
If the half-life of test E actually is 5 days, then day 15 is when pct should start at the earliest. Depending on cycle length, you have a cumulative effect of steadily rising levels of androgens in the blood. PCT needs to be tuned for dosage, length of cycle, and the user's own response to pct based on experience.

@500mg
If it's 7 days, there should be a minimum of 21 days to start PCT.
If it's 9 days, there should be a minimum of 28 days to start PCT.

SO:
Either wait to start PCT a bit longer, or extend your dosage of nolva/clomid out a few extra weeks.
For beginner cycles, we should be encouraging people to do a protocol such as this:

500mg test E, 12 weeks.
Upon completion of the cycle, continue your AI dose.
When you feel the symptoms of low T, mark that spot on the calendar and adjust future cycles' pct start dates accordingly. Start PCT a few days prior to hitting those low-t symptoms.
This would be a good way to get a baseline for each individual's half-life of a specific ester, and would help the user learn by feel.

Im done with you. Next time you have a bone to pick or an axe to grind, choose something you actually have at least some experience with, like Xbox.

Get a life.

**BBJT200** · 04-09-2013, 01:56 PM

Originally Posted by MickeyKnox

Im done with you. Next time you have a bone to pick or an axe to grind, choose something you actually have at least some experience with, like Xbox.

Get a life.

You're acting like a child, while calling me one. Go figure.

You're the one looking for a fight, i'm looking to discuss things. Clearly you aren't capable of discussion, only one-sided argument.
Do you see how hostile your remarks are? Your entire argument is based around my age. You have no idea what I have cycled, what I haven't cycled, etc. I merely have no reason to personally use PCT.

We're here to help people. So, in order to more effectively help people, we should include more information with our standard protocols. Better educated users will be able to make personal adjustments to their cycles and be more successful. I don't see how that is such an issue, Mickey. Just because something has been preached for a long period of time does not make it absolutely correct. This is how science moves forward-- accepting and investigating new concepts.

I do have quite a bit of real-life AAS experience to relay on. You automatically assume I'm only relying on my buddy.

Maybe you should up your AI dosage. Calm the f*** down

**MickeyKnox** · 04-09-2013, 02:03 PM

Originally Posted by BBJT200

You're acting like a child, while calling me one. Go figure.

You're the one looking for a fight, i'm looking to discuss things. Clearly you aren't capable of discussion, only one-sided argument.
Do you see how hostile your remarks are? Your entire argument is based around my age. You have no idea what I have cycled, what I haven't cycled, etc. I merely have no reason to personally use PCT. My entire argument is based upon the fact that came in here attempting to disparage me. But when i called called you out on your age and inexperience, you cried foul.

We're here to help people. So, in order to more effectively help people, we should include more information with our standard protocols. Better educated users will be able to make personal adjustments to their cycles and be more successful. I don't see how that is such an issue, Mickey. Just because something has been preached for a long period of time does not make it absolutely correct. This is how science moves forward-- accepting and investigating new concepts.

I do have quite a bit of real-life AAS experience to relay on. WHAT IS IT????? What is YOUR experience????? Tell us. You automatically assume I'm only relying on my buddy.

Maybe you should up your AI dosage. Calm the f*** down

You're a punk with no answers and no argument. You tried to discredit me and you failed miserably because of your lack of experience and knowledge gained form real life experiences. You're nothing but a parrot and have no ideas of your own. So dont go reaching for Kleenex now. Take you lumps and lessons and leave quietly. Stop making a fuss.