Gains forever or cycle forever ?

**jamesz123** · 07-05-2013, 11:40 AM

Originally Posted by bigsiv

You will only lose gains if you completely stop training and eating well. Steroids or not its still the same. James you seem to be talking from experience about gains you have lost and IMO it seems your completely selling yourself short. Possibly your diet, training or both are way off after a cycle to keep gains. Personally I think the hardest work is after cycling when you don't have the help of steroids, that's when you need to hit the gym harder and the kitchen as well.......but that's just my opinion off my experience same as you James

.I look like a trained athlete by the way.
Whatever gains I have "kept" would have been there had I not taken any steroids ....just kept training hard and dieting hard as I have always been doing..very consistent and for years...analyzing, improving constantly.

**bigsiv** · 07-05-2013, 11:43 AM

Originally Posted by jamesz123

.I look like a trained athlete by the way.
Whatever gains I have "kept" would have been there had I not taken any steroids....just kept training hard and dieting hard as I have always been doing..very consistent and for years...analyzing, improving constantly.

What's that got to do with anything?
So are you saying the gains you kept when on cycle you would have kept anyway had you not cycled? Your post is quite confusing and contradictory

**jamesz123** · 07-05-2013, 02:02 PM

Originally Posted by bigsiv

What's that got to do with anything?
So are you saying the gains you kept when on cycle you would have kept anyway had you not cycled? Your post is quite confusing and contradictory

I must be pretty bad at expressing myself but I feel some understand what I mean.
If I had NOT taken the dozen or so cycles that I did take over the years......I would have ended up still looking the way I do NOW (now that I am off the juice for a while now) , just by training the way I did and dieting...
Of course I looked different when on the cycle (and a month or so after the cycle). But after being off for a while I would go back to the way I was before the cycle. I would continue training and dieting etc....and than get on another cycle. I have seen the same in many people ....

Now I have been off for a while.....still training and dieting.

I am convinced that the gains that I made over the years I would have made anyway had I just struck to natural training and dieting. Steroids made me look a certain way for a certain period only.
Now I just plan to use ones a year and that is all....maybe summer time or so...

**panntastic** · 07-05-2013, 02:07 PM

Originally Posted by jamesz123

I must be pretty bad at expressing myself but I feel some understand what I mean.
If I had NOT taken the dozen or so cycles that I did take over the years......I would have ended up still looking the way I do NOW (now that I am off the juice for a while now) , just by training the way I did and dieting...
Of course I looked different when on the cycle (and a month or so after the cycle). But after being off for a while I would go back to the way I was before the cycle. I would continue training and dieting etc....and than get on another cycle. I have seen the same in many people ....

Now I have been off for a while.....still training and dieting.

I am convinced that the gains that I made over the years I would have made anyway had I just struck to natural training and dieting. Steroids made me look a certain way for a certain period only.
Now I just plan to use ones a year and that is all....maybe summer time or so...

If this has been asked already please forget this question
What are your stats?
Height
Weight bf%
Number of cycles etc

**jamesz123** · 07-05-2013, 02:32 PM

Originally Posted by panntastic

If this has been asked already please forget this question
What are your stats?
Height
Weight bf%
Number of cycles etc

Not to seem slick or anything but I rather not continue with this ...cause my original post was just to know about others experiences.
I know where this is going and I rather stop.
thx anyway

**sagittarius** · 07-05-2013, 03:02 PM

This is from "Anabolics", 9th Edition:

---------------
Are the gains from steroid use temporary?

Yes, and no. Steroids can help you do two basic things with regard to muscle growth. First, they can allow you to more rapidly reach your genetic limits for muscle growth. Provided you continue to train actively, eat properly, and use an effective PCT program, you should be able to maintain at your genetic limit indefinitely. So in this regard, the early gains do not have to be temporary.

Later, steroids can allow you to push well beyond your genetic limits. It is important to emphasize this, as extreme physical development cannot be maintained long-term without the repeat administration of anabolic substances. The body will always revert back towards its normal metabolic limits once AAS are removed. In this context, some of the gains will not be permanent.

Steroids do permanently alter the physiology of your muscles by adding more cellular nuclei.With higher nuclei content, each muscle cell can manage its volume more efficiently, which allows more rapid expansion. Even after a long period of complete abstinence from training and AAS, the nuclei remain. This may provide a "muscle memory" effect, allowing you to reach your genetic limit (perhaps a slightly extended limit) faster than if you had never used AAS in the past. So in this regard, there are lasting benefits beyond the temporary increase in muscle size itself.
---------------

**Brazensol** · 07-05-2013, 03:26 PM

I'd like to see some on cycle pic's vs. off cycle pic's of the op...

**jamesz123** · 07-05-2013, 03:27 PM

Originally Posted by sagittarius

This is from "Anabolics", 9th Edition:

---------------
Are the gains from steroid use temporary?

Yes, and no. Steroids can help you do two basic things with regard to muscle growth. First, they can allow you to more rapidly reach your genetic limits for muscle growth. Provided you continue to train actively, eat properly, and use an effective PCT program, you should be able to maintain at your genetic limit indefinitely. So in this regard, the early gains do not have to be temporary.

Later, steroids can allow you to push well beyond your genetic limits. It is important to emphasize this, as extreme physical development cannot be maintained long-term without the repeat administration of anabolic substances. The body will always revert back towards its normal metabolic limits once AAS are removed. In this context, some of the gains will not be permanent.

Steroids do permanently alter the physiology of your muscles by adding more cellular nuclei.With higher nuclei content, each muscle cell can manage its volume more efficiently, which allows more rapid expansion. Even after a long period of complete abstinence from training and AAS, the nuclei remain. This may provide a "muscle memory" effect, allowing you to reach your genetic limit (perhaps a slightly extended limit) faster than if you had never used AAS in the past. So in this regard, there are lasting benefits beyond the temporary increase in muscle size itself.
---------------

That basically sums up the most compelling argument, THEORY again, that I have heard and yet I have not seen or experienced it....amazing uh - you guys must think I am living on Mars lol.
Let me add to the argument. steroids help you train and recover harder and better and hence increase the neuro pathways that are required to trigger the muscles etc. You can call it muscle memory or whatever, So when you are off the juice you can train and get to a higher level (not to the steroid level but a higher level non the less) QUICKER than before. That will help you get to your natural max quicker.
the problem is that I have not seen it happen that way. I have added muscle and a little fat post cycle ....convinced myself ever which way that I have maintained this and maintained that from the cycle use.....but NO, if I am honest with myself I do not believe it now. The pure muscle gain from cycle goes away after months of non use. Of course you still train hard and diet good and increase somewhat but that would have happened anyway. Even natural gains will look different (flat muscles) if you stop training, so you still need to train to maintain natural muscle....
I wonder what a competitor(s) on this forums have to say....?
Oh well.....
That

**Brazensol** · 07-05-2013, 03:35 PM

My thinking is for those at the upper range of their gentic limit, steroids allows them push closer to that limit than they may have been able to otherwise. Just as in racing - two cars in draft can go faster than either one could alone... The steroids allow you to lift more and recover quicker than you could without them thus pushing you closer to that mythical, magical genetic limit.

If nothing else I will use a few cycles to get closer to my limit (a shortcut if you want to call it that but I will have a decent base before I do my first cycle) and if it takes a few years off that goal then I'm ok with that. At 51 years old I don't have the luxury of time that a 25 year old has. Nobodies fault but my own for waiting so long but it is what it is. If I keep half of what I gain each cycle it will be a major victory in my opinion.