Jump-starting gains with steroids

[Perklunky]

First off let me say I've been lurking for a few months and I love the information on this site.

Just came off my first cycle with methylstenbolone (msten, m-sten). I took 10 mg per day, divided into two 5mg doses about 12 hours apart. The pills were 10mg each (I took a half-dose) and I had to break open the pills and divide up the powder which was a little annoying. But I didn't want to run the full 20mg per day because it was my first cycle and because I tend to take things slowly.

I'm 37 years old and have been training for about 5 months. In the first 4 months I put on about 9-10 lbs of total weight. I didn't have a fat scale at the time so I'm not sure how much of that was fat but I'm guessing half. I went from 145lbs to 155lbs in that time and gained quite a bit of strength. I do a full-body, 3-day-per week routine based on the "A Workout Routine" blog.

(Yes I realize most guys will say that was too soon to start a cycle but I'll address that later.)

On the msten cycle I put on 10 lbs, 5 of which was lean muscle (according to my new body-fat scales). Almost all of those gains were in the first two weeks. The third week the gains petered out and I was feeling very lethargic so I cut the cycle short after 19 days.

That was 2 days ago. Yesterday I started on 25mg of Clomid. I ran 1000mg of milk thistle a day during the cycle but that seems from my research like a waste. Fortunately a bottle was only $6. I'm also on finasteride for my hairline and have been for 7 years.

Based on my research I believe that most of the stuff people take during and after a cycle is a waste. All that herbal stuff is scammy IMHO.

However the SERM seemed right so I'm on the Clomid, as I said. I'm actually more worried about the Clomid sides than the Msten sides, which weren't very noticeable (except for extreme lethargy and all-day pumps). I will slowly taper off after 3 weeks or so and we'll see if I keep the gains. So, 5 lbs of muscle in less than 3 weeks on msten for a noob with little training. I'll take it.

There isn't a lot of info on the 'net about "jump starting bodybuilding" with cycles of steroids . And herein lies my question:

Are there any experiments or studies done with relative training noobs going on-cycle to jump-start gains? Fortunately I did some training back in my teens so I know a lot about weight-training theory, I just haven't done it much in my life. And I've spent the last 3 months doing hundreds of hours of research online.

Most things I read say that a person would want to "reach his genetic potential" before doing anabolics, but it seems the greatest power of steroids for non-competitors would be to cut the time it would take to reach that genetic potential from 4-5 years to maybe 2.

I also hear lots of folks saying that a person should "build a natural base" of muscle, but that seems more 'bro'science than science. I can't find a single studying showing that "natural" muscle is somehow different than "steroid muscle." If someone can point me to a study showing some sort of difference, I'd love to see it.

I can understand that ligaments, tendons and joints take longer to grow and aren't affected by anabolics, so if a guy unbalanced his body with excessive muscle growth while his conjunctive tissue was still weak, he could injure himself. I do believe that's possible and is something to look out for.

So, any science-based opinions on noobs jump-starting gains with anabolics to reach their genetic potential sooner? Or even experience-based opinions on this topic? I'm trying to avoid a bunch of comments that say "You gotta put in your dues pal!" because those seem more emotion-based than rational to me.

I can understand if some guy put in 8 years of training would get annoyed with a guy who got to the same place in 3, but an emotional reaction to that isn't what I'm looking for in this thread. I'd like dispassionate, fact-based discussion.

So I'm pleased with my gains and am going to do what I can to hold on to them. 20 lbs, probably 10 of lean mass, in 4-5 months of training is quite astonishing to me. At xmas my mom, who I hadn't seen in awhile, said I looked like I was on steroids LOL. I said "Who, me?"

I currently don't have plans to do another cycle. If these gains hold and everything in my body goes back to normal, perhaps in 6 months I'll do another at full dosage (20mg/day) and see what happens.

Please note that injectable steroids are illegal in my area, and since I'm a professional with a professional license that could be taken away for a drug conviction, I'm only able to take legal designer steroids and prohormones.

Thanks very much for your dispassionate comments!

[bass]

too long of a read! just list your questions.

[Perklunky]

Folks who don't want to read the entire post likely will give inaccurate answers to the question(s), but thanks

[gixxerboy1]

yes you put in weight in the beginning. That is not hard naturally either. The smaller you are the easier to add weight. Just like its easier to loose 5lbs if your 50lbs overweight then 10 lbs overweight

Most people will not keep the extra weight from your jump start. First they dont know how to eat correctly that is why they were smaller to begin with and especially dont know how to eat to maintain the extra weight. Also it takes time for your body to learn to carry the extra weight. This i learned from experience. Your body has to adjust.

[Reiid13]

There probably isnt bundle of difference between natural muscle and steroid muscle . But steroids in the BB world were used as a final boost , but now all you need is the net and you can buy a load.

I dont really have any input but would love to hear the difference and the reasons from the pros !

[ghettoboyd]

well you came to the wrong forum to try to start up a dispassionate discussion about why you should ignore the real world experience that those of us who live eat breath the bodybuilding lifestyle and pass it of as "bro science"...to be honest im tired of people like yourself that try to rewrite the book on aas because they need to see a study that proves all of our experiences/teachings are wrong....do as you please but prepare to pay the consequences...

[Perklunky]

What consequences might those be? Just specifics is all I ask. Thanks!

[ghettoboyd]

i thought you already knew a man of your intellect as you have it all figured out with your 5 months experience and all...

[Perklunky]

^^^ Is that a helpful response?

[ghettoboyd]

how would I know specific consequences that you would encounter in your "unique" situation?...we are all different and I know nothing about you except you are in way over your head here and I don't feel like spoon feeding you what you should already know before taking designer steroids ...

[Perklunky]

yes you put in weight in the beginning. That is not hard naturally either. The smaller you are the easier to add weight. Just like its easier to loose 5lbs if your 50lbs overweight then 10 lbs overweight

Makes sense.

Most people will not keep the extra weight from your jump start. First they dont know how to eat correctly that is why they were smaller to begin with

I'm not sure this statement is entirely accurate. I was smaller to begin with because I had no interest in bodybuilding, not because I "didn't know how to eat." Now that I've started, I've been eating like a horse and eating, frankly, better foods.

From what I've seen, it takes about 2 hours of research to "learn how to eat" unless you know absolutely nothing about nutrition. Macros, micros, protein, fat, carbs, insulin ... not exactly rocket science.

Thanks for the responses so far! I know it's tough to get fact-based responses on the net.

[Perklunky]

how would I know specific consequences that you would encounter in your "unique" situation?...we are all different and I know nothing about you except you are in way over your head here and I don't feel like spoon feeding you what you should already know before taking designer steroids...

Then feel free to move on to the next thread and thanks for your input.

I was actually asking if people could post studies or experiential evidence of folks who attempted to jump-start gains as noobs with steroids .

[ghettoboyd]

Then feel free to move on to the next thread and thanks for your input.

I was actually asking if people could post studies or experiential evidence of folks who attempted to jump-start gains as noobs with steroids .

yes so you can intellectually try to justify the fact that you just want to be lazy...

[gixxerboy1]

Then feel free to move on to the next thread and thanks for your input.

I was actually asking if people could post studies or experiential evidence of folks who attempted to jump-start gains as noobs with steroids .

there are not going to be studies. But in my experience from being in the game for over 14 years. I see post like this all the time. And noobs posting who jumped on cycles right away. Do they barely ever work out in the long run.

[Perklunky]

And noobs posting who jumped on cycles right away. Do they barely ever work out in the long run.

Ok, and what exactly happens to these people?

The only experiment I've seen where they used steroids on noobs is the one we've all seen called "The Effects of Supraphysiologic Doses of Testosterone on Muscle Size and Strength in Normal Men" where juiced guys who didn't train at all ended up gaining more strength and size than natties who trained!

"Among the men in the no-exercise groups, those given testosterone had greater increases than those given placebo in muscle size in their arms (mean [±SE] change in triceps area, 424±104 vs. -81±109 mm2; P<0.05) and legs (change in quadriceps area, 607±123 vs. -131±111 mm2; P<0.05) and greater increases in strength in the bench-press (9±4 vs. -1±1 kg, P<0.05) and squatting exercises (16±4 vs. 3±1 kg, P<0.05). The men assigned to testosterone and exercise had greater increases in fat-free mass (6.1±0.6 kg) and muscle size (triceps area, 501±104 mm2; quadriceps area, 1174±91 mm2) than those assigned to either no-exercise group, and greater increases in muscle strength (bench-press strength, 22±2 kg; squatting-exercise capacity, 38±4 kg) than either no-exercise group. Neither mood nor behavior was altered in any group."

"Fat-free mass did not change significantly in the group assigned to placebo but no exercise (Table 4 and Figure 1Figure 1Changes from Base Line in Mean (±SE) Fat-free Mass, Triceps and Quadriceps Cross-Sectional Areas, and Muscle Strength in the Bench-Press and Squatting Exercises over the 10 Weeks of Treatment.). The men treated with testosterone but no exercise had an increase of 3.2 kg in fat-free mass, and those in the placebo-plus-exercise group had an increase of 1.9 kg. The increase in the testosterone-plus-exercise group was substantially greater (averaging 6.1 kg). The percentage of body fat did not change significantly in any group (data not shown)."

Any others?

[qscgugcsq]

well, cycling early will give you gain of course and if you learn to eat and train during that period and if at the end you are as knowledgable as you would be without. in theory it would change nothing.

however, the point of training natural first is to know what works for you the best. with steroids almost anything will work (just see most ifbb pro train... they have no idea of what they are doing, they are just on so many drugs that they will grow no matter what they do) so you will never be able to know whats work the best, you can still reach a good physic, however you could have way better with less to no drugs if you would have been patient.

plus, if you jump on drugs right away you would never know what you could achieve without...
taking steroids is a risk to your health no matter how you take them. you cant make it safe, only safer.

also you are most likely to rely on drugs cause you cant train and eat properly without them. once again you are risking your health.

but if you train well enough and eat well enough for your size( and if your hormones are alright) with or without steroid you will keep the gain.
if you didnt reach that size naturally its because you didnt train or eat properly for that size. so reaching it with AAS wont make you maintain it.
However you didnt let yourself time to grow so you may keep your gain and still make some afterward.
but thats an unhealthy way to accelerate things...

[MuscleInk]

there are not going to be studies. But in my experience from being in the game for over 14 years. I see post like this all the time. And noobs posting who jumped on cycles right away. Do they barely ever work out in the long run.

^^^This. You won't find many controlled studies where subjects are stratified into a steroid , non steroid condition to assess muscle growth or changes to fat/muscle distribution. Not many IRBs, Ethics Committees, or funding agencies would support studies where subjects are exposed to illegal and potentially dangerous drugs for the sake of vanity. That's not to say there aren't any studies in this area, but this perseverant need by some members to see only empirical evidence in peer reviewed journals WRT to anabolic use in controlled vs. treatment paradigms is a little naive. Studies such as those you seek OP would be very far and few between.

I also agree with Gixx. I think many first time anabolic users (myself included) start pinning BEFORE they have training and nutrition worked out. I trained consistently for 5 years before even considering steroids at 39. When I eventually ran my first cycle, results were good but I maintained very little between my first and second cycle because my nutrition was great during the first cycle but then I let it slip between cycles. I let my calories fall off and my consumption varied from day to day unlike during my cycle when I committed to my nutrition plan day after day.

I think the majority of first time users who claim to have their diet in check and a body fat of 15% or less, are simply making excuses to justify anabolic use. Many may have decent diets, but they are far from great or anywhere near the desired macros and caloric intake to achieve and (more importantly) sustain their goals.

IMO, for most recreational users who are passionate about the lifestyle, you make a few mistakes early on, you learn from those mistakes, and in time you learn what proper nutrition and training really means and apply cycles in a manner that actually drives and maintains results.

[gixxerboy1]

Ok, and what exactly happens to these people?

The only experiment I've seen where they used steroids on noobs is the one we've all seen called "The Effects of Supraphysiologic Doses of Testosterone on Muscle Size and Strength in Normal Men" where juiced guys who didn't train at all ended up gaining more strength and size than natties who trained!

"Among the men in the no-exercise groups, those given testosterone had greater increases than those given placebo in muscle size in their arms (mean [±SE] change in triceps area, 424±104 vs. -81±109 mm2; P<0.05) and legs (change in quadriceps area, 607±123 vs. -131±111 mm2; P<0.05) and greater increases in strength in the bench-press (9±4 vs. -1±1 kg, P<0.05) and squatting exercises (16±4 vs. 3±1 kg, P<0.05). The men assigned to testosterone and exercise had greater increases in fat-free mass (6.1±0.6 kg) and muscle size (triceps area, 501±104 mm2; quadriceps area, 1174±91 mm2) than those assigned to either no-exercise group, and greater increases in muscle strength (bench-press strength, 22±2 kg; squatting-exercise capacity, 38±4 kg) than either no-exercise group. Neither mood nor behavior was altered in any group."

"Fat-free mass did not change significantly in the group assigned to placebo but no exercise (Table 4 and Figure 1Figure 1Changes from Base Line in Mean (±SE) Fat-free Mass, Triceps and Quadriceps Cross-Sectional Areas, and Muscle Strength in the Bench-Press and Squatting Exercises over the 10 Weeks of Treatment.). The men treated with testosterone but no exercise had an increase of 3.2 kg in fat-free mass, and those in the placebo-plus-exercise group had an increase of 1.9 kg. The increase in the testosterone-plus-exercise group was substantially greater (averaging 6.1 kg). The percentage of body fat did not change significantly in any group (data not shown)."

Any others?

ugh, nobody is saying they dont work. Yes guys that just go on a trt will see improvements.
what do you think happened to the guys that were given steroids and made gains when they steroids were stopped with the study?

[kelkel]

Makes sense.


From what I've seen, it takes about 2 hours of research to "learn how to eat" unless you know absolutely nothing about nutrition. Macros, micros, protein, fat, carbs, insulin ... not exactly rocket science.

.

Wow. Another two hours of learning how to train and you'll be a pro in no time.

[MuscleInk]

Wow. Another two hours of learning how to train and you'll be a pro in no time.

Damn it!!! I've been doing it all wrong then. Apparently there is an abbreviated approach that has been kept a secret from me!!! Lol

[kelkel]

Damn it!!! I've been doing it all wrong then. Apparently there is an abbreviated approach that has been kept a secret from me!!! Lol

That 4-hr block on hormones in med school left out a few things.....

[MuscleInk]

That 4-hr block on hormones in med school left out a few things.....

....at least it was 3 1/2 hours longer than the so called lecture on nutrition! Lol

[marcus300]

Only only been training 5 months. Do not touch steroids learn how to train correctly and eat to your goals.

[TaiChiChuan]

First off let me say I've been lurking for a few months and I love the information on this site.

Just came off my first cycle with methylstenbolone (msten, m-sten). I took 10 mg per day, divided into two 5mg doses about 12 hours apart. The pills were 10mg each (I took a half-dose) and I had to break open the pills and divide up the powder which was a little annoying. But I didn't want to run the full 20mg per day because it was my first cycle and because I tend to take things slowly.

I'm 37 years old and have been training for about 5 months. In the first 4 months I put on about 9-10 lbs of total weight. I didn't have a fat scale at the time so I'm not sure how much of that was fat but I'm guessing half. I went from 145lbs to 155lbs in that time and gained quite a bit of strength. I do a full-body, 3-day-per week routine based on the "A Workout Routine" blog.

(Yes I realize most guys will say that was too soon to start a cycle but I'll address that later.)

On the msten cycle I put on 10 lbs, 5 of which was lean muscle (according to my new body-fat scales). Almost all of those gains were in the first two weeks. The third week the gains petered out and I was feeling very lethargic so I cut the cycle short after 19 days.

That was 2 days ago. Yesterday I started on 25mg of Clomid. I ran 1000mg of milk thistle a day during the cycle but that seems from my research like a waste. Fortunately a bottle was only $6. I'm also on finasteride for my hairline and have been for 7 years.

Based on my research I believe that most of the stuff people take during and after a cycle is a waste. All that herbal stuff is scammy IMHO.

However the SERM seemed right so I'm on the Clomid, as I said. I'm actually more worried about the Clomid sides than the Msten sides, which weren't very noticeable (except for extreme lethargy and all-day pumps). I will slowly taper off after 3 weeks or so and we'll see if I keep the gains. So, 5 lbs of muscle in less than 3 weeks on msten for a noob with little training. I'll take it.

There isn't a lot of info on the 'net about "jump starting bodybuilding" with cycles of steroids . And herein lies my question:

Are there any experiments or studies done with relative training noobs going on-cycle to jump-start gains? Fortunately I did some training back in my teens so I know a lot about weight-training theory, I just haven't done it much in my life. And I've spent the last 3 months doing hundreds of hours of research online.

Most things I read say that a person would want to "reach his genetic potential" before doing anabolics, but it seems the greatest power of steroids for non-competitors would be to cut the time it would take to reach that genetic potential from 4-5 years to maybe 2.

I also hear lots of folks saying that a person should "build a natural base" of muscle, but that seems more 'bro'science than science. I can't find a single studying showing that "natural" muscle is somehow different than "steroid muscle." If someone can point me to a study showing some sort of difference, I'd love to see it.

I can understand that ligaments, tendons and joints take longer to grow and aren't affected by anabolics, so if a guy unbalanced his body with excessive muscle growth while his conjunctive tissue was still weak, he could injure himself. I do believe that's possible and is something to look out for.

So, any science-based opinions on noobs jump-starting gains with anabolics to reach their genetic potential sooner? Or even experience-based opinions on this topic? I'm trying to avoid a bunch of comments that say "You gotta put in your dues pal!" because those seem more emotion-based than rational to me.

I can understand if some guy put in 8 years of training would get annoyed with a guy who got to the same place in 3, but an emotional reaction to that isn't what I'm looking for in this thread. I'd like dispassionate, fact-based discussion.

So I'm pleased with my gains and am going to do what I can to hold on to them. 20 lbs, probably 10 of lean mass, in 4-5 months of training is quite astonishing to me. At xmas my mom, who I hadn't seen in awhile, said I looked like I was on steroids LOL. I said "Who, me?"

I currently don't have plans to do another cycle. If these gains hold and everything in my body goes back to normal, perhaps in 6 months I'll do another at full dosage (20mg/day) and see what happens.

Please note that injectable steroids are illegal in my area, and since I'm a professional with a professional license that could be taken away for a drug conviction, I'm only able to take legal designer steroids and prohormones.

Thanks very much for your dispassionate comments!

You are professional "what" with a license? Are you a pro boxer or one of those MMA guys?
Why are you worried about getting busted for steroids?
Even if they found steroids in your blood system they can't jail you for that! Damn!
You'd only lose your license and probably get banned. And don't go babbling around that you have steroids in your house.
The local cops won't bust you, but they turn your name and address over to the DEA and FBI and they won't bother to knock!

Milk thistle at 1,000mg isn't a waste! I take the same thing daily which keeps my liver from dying!
Try injecting 3,000mgml. every month and taking orals you'll see what I mean.
I haven't taken clomid since 2006. That's a waste! LOL
You should use steroids that will leave out of your blood system within 5-7 days. Those are the steroids that I suggest you use them at 6-8 weeks intervals with rest periods about the same length.

Use the search engines to find those studies. And yes, you can cut you training by half with steroid usage.

I have a few reasons for using steroids. #1 To look big and muscular. #2 Makes my job as plain clothes security a lot easier. #3 My doctor has me on TRT and it's been 5 years so far.
#4 They make my workouts fun to do. #5 They keep a smile on my face everyday. #6 They make having sex very pleasurable and they make you think you with the most sexiest woman in the world.
Last but not least and this is my thoughts, if I had a choice between getting laid with any babe I wanted or getting supplied with steroids for the rest of my life which one would I chose?

[kelkel]

Last but not least and this is my thoughts, if I had a choice between getting laid with any babe I wanted or getting supplied with steroids for the rest of my life which one would I chose?

No there's a question.....

[Perklunky]

what do you think happened to the guys that were given steroids and made gains when they steroids were stopped with the study?

I would guess that those gains were lost IF they continued not to train. Of course that wouldn't be the case for most noobs starting out with 'roids.

Only only been training 5 months. Do not touch steroids learn how to train correctly and eat to your goals.

Learning how to train doesn't take more than a couple of months and "eating" doesn't require much training at all. This isn't rocket science. Seems to me anyone with a 95 IQ or higher can learn everything he needs to know in a few months of research and training at the most.

You are professional "what" with a license? Are you a pro boxer or one of those MMA guys?
Why are you worried about getting busted for steroids?

That's not the really relevant part of my post but I'm a white-collar professional who would run a high risk of losing his professional license for a drug conviction. While the risk is low, the consequences are high enough that I'm not going to come anywhere close to messing with the possibility. So it's only non-scheduled oral "supplements" -- such as those sold on this site -- for me.

Thanks again for the responses. I've found on my own a recent article on tendons and joints NOT growing during an anabolic cycle:

[link removed for low post count - oh well - it's on ergo-log]

"Anabolic steroids prevent tendons from becoming stronger through training

(24.12.13)

Steroids, while boosting post-training muscle growth, also prevent muscle attachments from becoming stronger. Animal study."

I did point that out in my OP, however. I didn't realize that steroids apparently prevent tendons and ligaments (at least one in rats) from growing AT ALL. That's certainly one reason not to do too many cycles up front.

[kelkel]

I would guess that those gains were lost IF they continued not to train. Of course that wouldn't be the case for most noobs starting out with 'roids.

Oh of course not.


Learning how to train doesn't take more than a couple of months and "eating" doesn't require much training at all. This isn't rocket science. Seems to me anyone with a 95 IQ or higher can learn everything he needs to know in a few months of research and training at the most.

Well, Arnold, when you reach 95 let us know. Matter of fact since you're such a quick learner why don't you post a current pic now and then one in a couple months after you make all this "easy" progress. Your arrogance is amazing.

In bold above.

[gixxerboy1]

Learning how to train doesn't take more than a couple of months and "eating" doesn't require much training at all. This isn't rocket science. Seems to me anyone with a 95 IQ or higher can learn everything he needs to know in a few months of research and training at the most.

-

Yes it takes allot more then months, maybe not to research, but this isnt cookie cutter, a diet that works for me, may not work for you, prople respond better to diffetent types of training.
You have no clue what works for YOU, it takes time and trail and error.

[Perklunky]

Well, Arnold, when you reach 95 let us know. Matter of fact since you're such a quick learner why don't you post a current pic now and then one in a couple months after you make all this "easy" progress. Your arrogance is amazing.

Not sure why there's so much emotion and ad hominem attacks being generated here. All I'm asking for is either studies or specific anecdotal reports. Anybody can get on the internet, rack up 5000 posts on a forum, and then claim to be an "expert." But I don't believe people just because they tell me I should. I like hard facts. So it's nothing personal that I don't believe you just because you say so

Everything in my research so far leads me to believe that:

1) A noob with no more than a few months of training and dieting should be able to make gains with steroids .
2) If a noob continues to train and eat after the cycle, he should be able to keep most of the gains and improve upon them.
3) Those steroid -induced gains will allow him to move faster toward his goal than training for years as a natural and, only then, moving to steroids. They might even keep his motivation up during that time.

Again, if anyone has any specific, articulable evidence to the contrary, I'd love to hear it. But appeals to authority and appeals to the consequences are logical fallacies and have no place in this thread.

The only thing I'm coming up with right now are potential tendon and ligament undergrowth problems. Is there anything else?

[MuscleInk]

Not sure why there's so much emotion and ad hominem attacks being generated here. All I'm asking for is either studies or specific anecdotal reports. Anybody can get on the internet, rack up 5000 posts on a forum, and then claim to be an "expert." But I don't believe people just because they tell me I should. I like hard facts. So it's nothing personal that I don't believe you just because you say so

Everything in my research so far leads me to believe that:

1) A noob with no more than a few months of training and dieting should be able to make gains with steroids .
2) If a noob continues to train and eat after the cycle, he should be able to keep most of the gains and improve upon them.
3) Those steroid -induced gains will allow him to move faster toward his goal than training for years as a natural and, only then, moving to steroids. They might even keep his motivation up during that time.

Again, if anyone has any specific, articulable evidence to the contrary, I'd love to hear it. But appeals to authority and appeals to the consequences are logical fallacies and have no place in this thread.

The only thing I'm coming up with right now are potential tendon and ligament undergrowth problems. Is there anything else?

Nothing you've discussed thus far addresses the potential adverse events and future risks. Your research seem biased towards benefits alone (with the exception of connective tissue risks). Where is the discussion on possible risks, including but not limited to, hyperlipidemia, hypercholesterolemia, hypertension, tachycardia, peripheral artery disease, DVTs, immune suppression, changes in affect, lymphadenitis, prostrate diseases, dermatological issues, sexual dysfunction, alopecia, and much much more?

You've already hit upon under development of connective issue. This is one of the main reasons to wait until you have at least two years of consistent and disciplined training before steroids becomes part of your training vernacular. Connective tissue, unlike striated muscle is poorly vascularized. This is important for two fundamental reasons. First, in the absence of endothelial structures which would nourish surrounding tissue, connective tissue does not adapt and become resilient to strain and stress of heavy lifting like striated muscle does. Connective tissue grows at a slower pace. Second, the absence of vascular innervation hinders repair and recovery from torn or strained connective tissue induced by heavy, repetitive lifting. Many steroids can and will dry out connective tissue making it more brittle and prone to tears or ruptures. Two years of consecutive training will strengthen that tissue and minimize stress and strain. Five months is nowhere near long enough for your connective tissue to handle the strain of anabolics combined with progressively heavier lifts. At five months you increase the risk for an injury that could keep you sidelined and out of the gym for an extended period.

Many of the guys here live a lifestyle around fitness and anabolics. They live and breath this lifestyle and some have been fortunate to compete on stage. They certainly offer more direct life experience than some scientist or physician who has never used or treated someone on an anabolic cycle. I have been practicing medicine for 18 years and I can tell you that many of the vets offering advice here are light years ahead of physicians regarding anabolic trends and safe cycling.

Personally, I'd much rather receive my knowledge and instruction from someone with real life/practical experiences than an academician who has text book knowledge and no real life tangible experience.

[ghettoboyd]

Nothing you've discussed thus far addresses the potential adverse events and future risks. Your research seem biased towards benefits alone (with the exception of connective tissue risks). Where is the discussion on possible risks, including but not limited to, hyperlipidemia, hypercholesterolemia, hypertension, tachycardia, peripheral artery disease, DVTs, immune suppression, changes in affect, lymphadenitis, prostrate diseases, dermatological issues, sexual dysfunction, alopecia, and much much more?

You've already hit upon under development of connective issue. This is one of the main reasons to wait until you have at least two years of consistent and disciplined training before steroids becomes part of your training vernacular. Connective tissue, unlike striated muscle is poorly vascularized. This is important for two fundamental reasons. First, in the absence of endothelial structures which would nourish surrounding tissue, connective tissue does not adapt and become resilient to strain and stress of heavy lifting like striated muscle does. Connective tissue grows at a slower pace. Second, the absence of vascular innervation hinders repair and recovery from torn or strained connective tissue induced by heavy, repetitive lifting. Many steroids can and will dry out connective tissue making it more brittle and prone to tears or ruptures. Two years of consecutive training will strengthen that tissue and minimize stress and strain. Five months is nowhere near long enough for your connective tissue to handle the strain of anabolics combined with progressively heavier lifts. At five months you increase the risk for an injury that could keep you sidelined and out of the gym for an extended period.

Many of the guys here live a lifestyle around fitness and anabolics. They live and breath this lifestyle and some have been fortunate to compete on stage. They certainly offer more direct life experience than some scientist or physician who has never used or treated someone on an anabolic cycle. I have been practicing medicine for 18 years and I can tell you that many of the vets offering advice here are light years ahead of physicians regarding anabolic trends and safe cycling.

Personally, I'd much rather receive my knowledge and instruction from someone with real life/practical experiences than an academician who has text book knowledge and no real life tangible experience.

well said brother, if someone of your knowledge/experience cant reach this guy then there's no hope...op get real with yourself and realize that although you can take all the shortcuts available you will never obtain the results of those whom approach bb as a lifestyle and live eat and breath it...to those of us it is a passion and your arrogance is quite offensive imho...

[TaiChiChuan]

Makes sense.


I'm not sure this statement is entirely accurate. I was smaller to begin with because I had no interest in bodybuilding, not because I "didn't know how to eat." Now that I've started, I've been eating like a horse and eating, frankly, better foods.

From what I've seen, it takes about 2 hours of research to "learn how to eat" unless you know absolutely nothing about nutrition. Macros, micros, protein, fat, carbs, insulin ... not exactly rocket science.

Thanks for the responses so far! I know it's tough to get fact-based responses on the net.

"I KNOW IT'S TO TOUGH TO GET FACT-BASED RESPONSES ON THE NET"!! LOL I believe you aren't even trying to find your answers.
I read everything I could find about steroids for 60 days from injections, needles, syringes, gauge size, Luer-locks, PCT, cycles, studies with controlled groups, the risks that are involved, what foods I should be consuming, how many meals a day, hours of sleep, the length of time I should exercise to get the full benefits of AAS, the best exercises for maximum gain, what bodybuilders have used steroids and those that have been on steroids for more than 20 years and it continues on and on. So after my 2 months and a week of research I was good to go. The thing is I'm still learning and finding new things.

[TaiChiChuan]

Not sure why there's so much emotion and ad hominem attacks being generated here. All I'm asking for is either studies or specific anecdotal reports. Anybody can get on the internet, rack up 5000 posts on a forum, and then claim to be an "expert." But I don't believe people just because they tell me I should. I like hard facts. So it's nothing personal that I don't believe you just because you say so

Everything in my research so far leads me to believe that:

1) A noob with no more than a few months of training and dieting should be able to make gains with steroids .
2) If a noob continues to train and eat after the cycle, he should be able to keep most of the gains and improve upon them.
3) Those steroid -induced gains will allow him to move faster toward his goal than training for years as a natural and, only then, moving to steroids. They might even keep his motivation up during that time.

Again, if anyone has any specific, articulable evidence to the contrary, I'd love to hear it. But appeals to authority and appeals to the consequences are logical fallacies and have no place in this thread.

The only thing I'm coming up with right now are potential tendon and ligament undergrowth problems. Is there anything else?

There it is right in your post. "Undergrowth of ligaments and tendons". You've to do exercises to strengthen your ligaments and tendons to accommodate the increase in size and strength of your muscles while on cycle and off. Also taking supplements specifically for ligaments and tendons.

[TaiChiChuan]

I would guess that those gains were lost IF they continued not to train. Of course that wouldn't be the case for most noobs starting out with 'roids.


Learning how to train doesn't take more than a couple of months and "eating" doesn't require much training at all. This isn't rocket science. Seems to me anyone with a 95 IQ or higher can learn everything he needs to know in a few months of research and training at the most.


That's not the really relevant part of my post but I'm a white-collar professional who would run a high risk of losing his professional license for a drug conviction. While the risk is low, the consequences are high enough that I'm not going to come anywhere close to messing with the possibility. So it's only non-scheduled oral "supplements" -- such as those sold on this site -- for me.

Thanks again for the responses. I've found on my own a recent article on tendons and joints NOT growing during an anabolic cycle:

[link removed for low post count - oh well - it's on ergo-log]

"Anabolic steroids prevent tendons from becoming stronger through training

(24.12.13)

Steroids, while boosting post-training muscle growth, also prevent muscle attachments from becoming stronger. Animal study."

I did point that out in my OP, however. I didn't realize that steroids apparently prevent tendons and ligaments (at least one in rats) from growing AT ALL. That's certainly one reason not to do too many cycles up front.

That's all wrong. Ligaments and tendons do not stop growing. They can be strengthen while training to avoid injuries while increasing in muscle size.

[marcus300]

Learn how to train correctly it doesn't take a couple of months that's retarded view what will hold back your gains. Also diet takes longer to learn. You came here for answers but ignore them. We know what we are talking about you don't. Try listening

[chaps]

This is all very silly.

[TaiChiChuan]

Learn how to train correctly it doesn't take a couple of months that's retarded view what will hold back your gains. Also diet takes longer to learn. You came here for answers but ignore them. We know what we are talking about you don't. Try listening

You gave these guy a bit of intelligence, but reading his posts especially about eating and training and came to 2 conclusions.
Either this guy is a troll or he's a goddamn moron! LOL

[Oki-Des]

Since you are 37 your natural test levels have dropped to a degree that you could go to a trt doc and get a script for testosterone and would not be putting your job in jeopardy.

[TaiChiChuan]

First off let me say I've been lurking for a few months and I love the information on this site.

Just came off my first cycle with methylstenbolone (msten, m-sten). I took 10 mg per day, divided into two 5mg doses about 12 hours apart. The pills were 10mg each (I took a half-dose) and I had to break open the pills and divide up the powder which was a little annoying. But I didn't want to run the full 20mg per day because it was my first cycle and because I tend to take things slowly.

I'm 37 years old and have been training for about 5 months. In the first 4 months I put on about 9-10 lbs of total weight. I didn't have a fat scale at the time so I'm not sure how much of that was fat but I'm guessing half. I went from 145lbs to 155lbs in that time and gained quite a bit of strength. I do a full-body, 3-day-per week routine based on the "A Workout Routine" blog.

(Yes I realize most guys will say that was too soon to start a cycle but I'll address that later.)

On the msten cycle I put on 10 lbs, 5 of which was lean muscle (according to my new body-fat scales). Almost all of those gains were in the first two weeks. The third week the gains petered out and I was feeling very lethargic so I cut the cycle short after 19 days.

That was 2 days ago. Yesterday I started on 25mg of Clomid. I ran 1000mg of milk thistle a day during the cycle but that seems from my research like a waste. Fortunately a bottle was only $6. I'm also on finasteride for my hairline and have been for 7 years.

Based on my research I believe that most of the stuff people take during and after a cycle is a waste. All that herbal stuff is scammy IMHO.

However the SERM seemed right so I'm on the Clomid, as I said. I'm actually more worried about the Clomid sides than the Msten sides, which weren't very noticeable (except for extreme lethargy and all-day pumps). I will slowly taper off after 3 weeks or so and we'll see if I keep the gains. So, 5 lbs of muscle in less than 3 weeks on msten for a noob with little training. I'll take it.

There isn't a lot of info on the 'net about "jump starting bodybuilding" with cycles of steroids . And herein lies my question:

Are there any experiments or studies done with relative training noobs going on-cycle to jump-start gains? Fortunately I did some training back in my teens so I know a lot about weight-training theory, I just haven't done it much in my life. And I've spent the last 3 months doing hundreds of hours of research online.

Most things I read say that a person would want to "reach his genetic potential" before doing anabolics, but it seems the greatest power of steroids for non-competitors would be to cut the time it would take to reach that genetic potential from 4-5 years to maybe 2.

I also hear lots of folks saying that a person should "build a natural base" of muscle, but that seems more 'bro'science than science. I can't find a single studying showing that "natural" muscle is somehow different than "steroid muscle." If someone can point me to a study showing some sort of difference, I'd love to see it.

I can understand that ligaments, tendons and joints take longer to grow and aren't affected by anabolics, so if a guy unbalanced his body with excessive muscle growth while his conjunctive tissue was still weak, he could injure himself. I do believe that's possible and is something to look out for.

So, any science-based opinions on noobs jump-starting gains with anabolics to reach their genetic potential sooner? Or even experience-based opinions on this topic? I'm trying to avoid a bunch of comments that say "You gotta put in your dues pal!" because those seem more emotion-based than rational to me.

I can understand if some guy put in 8 years of training would get annoyed with a guy who got to the same place in 3, but an emotional reaction to that isn't what I'm looking for in this thread. I'd like dispassionate, fact-based discussion.

So I'm pleased with my gains and am going to do what I can to hold on to them. 20 lbs, probably 10 of lean mass, in 4-5 months of training is quite astonishing to me. At xmas my mom, who I hadn't seen in awhile, said I looked like I was on steroids LOL. I said "Who, me?"

I currently don't have plans to do another cycle. If these gains hold and everything in my body goes back to normal, perhaps in 6 months I'll do another at full dosage (20mg/day) and see what happens.

Please note that injectable steroids are illegal in my area, and since I'm a professional with a professional license that could be taken away for a drug conviction, I'm only able to take legal designer steroids and prohormones.

Thanks very much for your dispassionate comments!

I read and heard on the news that finasteride can cause permanent and irreversible damage to organs and bodily functions, but I stopped taking them years before that came out.
That Jay at "A Workout Routine" has great penmanship.
You probably don't know this about legal designer steroids and prohormones. Some of them actually transform to the real thing in the body.

[tarmyg]

The OP was very clear in his question and also posted the question in a way that seemed very objective. I have no idea why people got on their high-horses instead of just answering the question? It was a legitimate question and I found one serious answer that addressed somewhat his original question. Any specific reason people felt the need to completely trash this guy instead of trying to answer his original question?

Just wondering where all the anger came from?

Thanks
~T

---

"Trophy Husband - a countdown timer"
Follow my personal story here on this blog: An honest journey