Debating two approaches for my first cycle - Would LOVE input..

[Black]

1) He doesn't use gear or give advice on it.

2) Here's a video of him deadlifting 600lbs, 4 times: Deadlifting 600 lbs x 4 on Leangains Intermittent Fasting - YouTube

3) He is an arrogant prick.

Well there we go.

[AlphaMike]

If it were me, and I had your goals, I would cut down to 6% before and then run the cycle. You'd be at your goal bf% and if you carefully planned each meal (since you don't do cardio) to minimize any fat gain, you might come out somewhere near your 6% @170 goal

And steve reeves' physique is completely attainable, you just have to train more than an hour a week.

[kelkel]

Alright. So now that everyone's gotten their shots in about how I train, and I've learned about how to conduct myself here.. let's get back to the gear discussion.

Now, I've been told by some that a person's first cycle is kind of a special thing. With fresh receptors, I've been told it's the best opportunity you'll ever have to put on a ton of lean muscle. That's sort of the main reason I've been leaning against a cutting, or even a recomp cycle. My thinking now is, "Hey.. maybe I should cut down to 5 or 10 lbs below my ideal weight before doing this thing?" Let myself put on some real muscle.

What do you guys think? Cutting, recomp or slight gain cycle? Which is gonna get me closest to my goals?

When did the light go on? IMHO there's no reason to use AAS unless you're trying to put on muscle.
Hey, I watched your guy deadlift. Quite strong for his appearance. Impressive actually.

[nussnussbaby]

If it were me, and I had your goals, I would cut down to 6% before and then run the cycle. You'd be at your goal bf% and if you carefully planned each meal (since you don't do cardio) to minimize any fat gain, you might come out somewhere near your 6% @170 goal

And steve reeves' physique is completely attainable, you just have to train more than an hour a week.

Thank you very much for the input.

Last time I got to six% body fat I wound up at about 155lbs. Do you think 15lbs from there would be too much to expect to add in one cycle?

[nussnussbaby]

When did the light go on? IMHO there's no reason to use AAS unless you're trying to put on muscle.
Hey, I watched your guy deadlift. Quite strong for his appearance. Impressive actually.

Okay. That's sort of the consensus I'm starting to gather. How far below 170lbs do you think I should get before starting the cycle?

And yeah. He's damn strong. He just looks smaller because he rolls around at about 5.5%bf

[AlphaMike]

Thank you very much for the input.

Last time I got to six% body fat I wound up at about 155lbs. Do you think 15lbs from there would be too much to expect to add in one cycle?

15 lean pounds would be around the upper limit I think. If you time it correctly the rebound effect switching from cutting to bulking could be dramatic but the problem is you want to keep you bodyfat% low so you'll have to dampen that effect some.

[kelkel]

Okay. That's sort of the consensus I'm starting to gather. How far below 170lbs do you think I should get before starting the cycle?

And yeah. He's damn strong. He just looks smaller because he rolls around at about 5.5%bf

I think you should get the hell off your scale. You're obsessed with it. Look in the mirror. You look good. Move forward.


No, he's still small. Just strong.

[derekkpapa1]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Yeah what he said

[nussnussbaby]

I think you should get the hell off your scale. You're obsessed with it. Look in the mirror. You look good. Move forward.


No, he's still small. Just strong.

Thanks. And a good point. Just generally speaking though. About how many lbs of muscle should I aim to gain on a first cycle?

[kelkel]

Thanks. And a good point. Just generally speaking though. About how many lbs of muscle should I aim to gain on a first cycle?

There's no real rule but as much as possible. Just remember that you're eating to gain and you can monitor and adjust as you go. You're in shape which makes adjusting via the mirror even easier. The mistake most make is when off cycle they then don't eat enough calories to sustain the newly formed tissue so they lose it. It's all about nutrition which you already know, but the above point is one that seems to get lost along the way.

[nussnussbaby]

There's no real rule but as much as possible. Just remember that you're eating to gain and you can monitor and adjust as you go. You're in shape which makes adjusting via the mirror even easier. The mistake most make is when off cycle they then don't eat enough calories to sustain the newly formed tissue so they lose it. It's all about nutrition which you already know, but the above point is one that seems to get lost along the way.

Right. Okay. I don't want to try and add so much that I start gaining fat ~ which, like you said - Mirror. But is a pound a week a good ball park to shoot for, and then adjust?

[kelkel]

That would be a good goal. It won't start that fast but it will catch up.
I look forward to this. It's going to change your perspective.

[nussnussbaby]

That would be a good goal. It won't start that fast but it will catch up.
I look forward to this. It's going to change your perspective.

Okay. So maybe I'll just drop down a little below 160 then.

And yeah. I'm definitely excited too. Especially after doing a good bit of research about the actual safety of the drugs. Unfortunately for those interested in seeing results soon ~ I'm not planning to cut more than a lb/wk, so it'll be a while still before I start.

Now that I know how I'm going to approach this. I want to start gathering information about the actual combination of drugs I'm going to be going with. Girl's about to be here though so I gotta run til morning.

Thanks for all the input man. Really!

[John Andrew]

What a very sad post, Nussnussbaby you most certainly sound like a Nuss.

Good and honest people try to help you and you just keep on and on about your stupid idea!

26 going on 15!

Sorry John

[ickythump]

John you're a day late and a buck short to the piss party bud, keep the negativity to the first three pages, or comment on his other posts. I liked IF for cutting, nuss obviously saw results, the first bunch of threads got hideously derailed, he must have seen something in this board to continue posting sms wanting advice there's plenty of boards, so let's move on and see what he can get into the results section

[nussnussbaby]

Alright. Now that I know how I'm going to do this (I'm going to drop to about 160, probably about 6-7%bf, then I'm going to attempt to gain about 10lbs of almost pure muscle on my first cycle).. It's time to figure out what, exactly, I'm going to do.

Without putting too much thought into it to this point, I'd been - roughly - planning on just going with the site's recommended beginner cycle (below). Given that I am very disciplined and experienced with my diet. Given that I'll be entering my cycle with such a low body fat percentage. And given that my goal is to come out of this with an even lower body fat percentage. Are there any alterations I should consider making? Something that might lead to less water retention, perhaps. One poster has made some recommendations thus far, in this thread and in private messages. But I'd like to hear what everyone else thinks too.

- Week 1 to 12: Testosterone enanthate @ 250 mg every 3.5 days (500mg/week total)
- Week 1 to 12: hCG @ 250 iu every 3.5 days (500 iu/week total)
- Week 1 to 14: Arimidex @ 0.25mg every other day (From day 2 up until PCT starts)
- Week 14 to 18: Clomid @ 75/50/50/50
- Week 14 to 18: Nolvadex @ 40/20/20/20
*600 mg of N-Acetyl Cysteine (NAC) daily.

[derekkpapa1]

Alright. Now that I know how I'm going to do this (I'm going to drop to about 160, probably about 6-7%bf, then I'm going to attempt to gain about 10lbs of almost pure muscle on my first cycle).. It's time to figure out what, exactly, I'm going to do.

Without putting too much thought into it to this point, I'd been - roughly - planning on just going with the site's recommended beginner cycle (below). Given that I am very disciplined and experienced with my diet. Given that I'll be entering my cycle with such a low body fat percentage. And given that my goal is to come out of this with an even lower body fat percentage. Are there any alterations I should consider making? Something that might lead to less water retention, perhaps. One poster has made some recommendations thus far, in this thread and in private messages. But I'd like to here what everyone else thinks too.

- Week 1 to 12: Testosterone enanthate @ 250 mg every 3.5 days (500mg/week total)
- Week 1 to 12: hCG @ 250 iu every 3.5 days (500 iu/week total)
- Week 1 to 14: Arimidex @ 0.25mg every other day (From day 2 up until PCT starts)
- Week 14 to 18: Clomid @ 75/50/50/50
- Week 14 to 18: Nolvadex @ 40/20/20/20
*600 mg of N-Acetyl Cysteine (NAC) daily.

Wow some one did alittle research look at you go

[ickythump]

Yea, make sure you're getting blood work! You probably know that but, just saying!

[nussnussbaby]

Yea, make sure you're getting blood work! You probably know that but, just saying!

The bloodwork stuff actually seemed really complicated. I was going to get into that after picking compounds.

Any thoughts on adjustments to the plan ppl?

[ickythump]

I think I had suggested test propionate to you that's my only input, maybe if someone can chime in with personal experience about prop holding less water, it seems like common knowledge but I can't find scientific evidence (but even in places such as drugs dot com or any sites giving medical information they seem to say water retention is less with shorter esters)

[Black]

I think I had suggested test propionate to you that's my only input, maybe if someone can chime in with personal experience about prop holding less water, it seems like common knowledge but I can't find scientific evidence (but even in places such as drugs dot com or any sites giving medical information they seem to say water retention is less with shorter esters)

I seemed to retain more water with cyp than with prop. It was awhile ago I ran cyp, so I'm not sure what my diet was like.
You would also be injecting less prop at a time than cyp, so that could also be a factor.

[BG]

I like to see you get 450 at 185 no gear. Not saying you can't, but I would be interested seeing it. You have a future in ppl'ing.

[nussnussbaby]

I like to see you get 450 at 185 no gear. Not saying you can't, but I would be interested seeing it. You have a future in ppl'ing.

Short arms help. What's ppl'ing?

[nussnussbaby]

I seemed to retain more water with cyp than with prop. It was awhile ago I ran cyp, so I'm not sure what my diet was like.
You would also be injecting less prop at a time than cyp, so that could also be a factor.

you guys will have to forgive me for being so green when it comes to talking about compounds.. but the beginner's cycle recommends test enanthate .

you two seem to be recommending test propionate instead, right? (I don't really understand why DanteDiamond is comparing it to something called "cyp")

[BG]

Power lifting. I meant pl'ing

[ickythump]

Testosterone is the hormone, the next is the ester, which is the time release tail so to speak. don't quote me but I believe it's the number of carbon atoms attached to the test and it releases the hormone into your system. I think when I talked to you about it before I gave you a description of why steroids can lead to water retention, and there's some science I included, but I can not find anything concrete on WHY shorter releasing esters cause less retention.

Examples of esters 0 day release is test suspension

1-3 for proportionate and acetate
9 I think for isocapronate
Cypionate and enanthate are like 18 (this is really goggle-able)

Point is, that's how long they're active. The beginner cycle recommends enth because of less injecting, which may be better for people. I suggested prop to you so you could run a shorter cycle, and you want to remain as lean as you can so, less water you can monitor your muscles better imho

[ickythump]

I meant propionate

[nussnussbaby]

Power lifting. I meant pl'ing

Oh. Maybe in a weight-class-based competition I could be. Even before I started lifting seriously, I was always pretty strong. Strongest kid on my football teams in high school and college at about 185.

[nussnussbaby]

Testosterone is the hormone, the next is the ester, which is the time release tail so to speak. don't quote me but I believe it's the number of carbon atoms attached to the test and it releases the hormone into your system. I think when I talked to you about it before I gave you a description of why steroids can lead to water retention, and there's some science I included, but I can not find anything concrete on WHY shorter releasing esters cause less retention.

Examples of esters 0 day release is test suspension

1-3 for proportionate and acetate
9 I think for isocapronate
Cypionate and enanthate are like 18 (this is really goggle-able)

Point is, that's how long they're active. The beginner cycle recommends enth because of less injecting, which may be better for people. I suggested prop to you so you could run a shorter cycle, and you want to remain as lean as you can so, less water you can monitor your muscles better imho

Okay. Interesting. The more injections wouldn't be a problem (I have a friend who's used plenty ~ but who doesn't seem to know how to use properly ~ who's going to show me how to do the injections).

Prop would be a shorter cycle, huh? How long are we talking?

[kelkel]

It's your first cycle, stick with a long ester and keep it simple. You don't need EOD pinning for a first go round.

[nussnussbaby]

It's your first cycle, stick with a long ester and keep it simple. You don't need EOD pinning for a first go round.

What's EOD pinning? (take it easy on the acronyms guys, I've never heard a lot of them)

[Capebuffalo]

What's EOD pinning? (take it easy on the acronyms guys, I've never heard a lot of them)

Every other day

[king6 II]

test prop cycles are usually about 8 weeks, I ran 9 last time. I like prop because of the faster results and less water retention for me. I do not mind pinning, which is why I pinned every day, I favor more sable blood levels however, EOD pinning is also fine. I am just more paranoid than others.

[nussnussbaby]

It's your first cycle, stick with a long ester and keep it simple. You don't need EOD pinning for a first go round.

What's the main benefit of keeping it simple vs. going w/ test prop? Is it simply the amount of injections?

..minimizing water retention is a high priority for me.

[nussnussbaby]

test prop cycles are usually about 8 weeks, I ran 9 last time. I like prop because of the faster results and less water retention for me. I do not mind pinning, which is why I pinned every day, I favor more sable blood levels however, EOD pinning is also fine. I am just more paranoid than others.

Every day? Did you run out of places to pin?

And it even works faster, huh? 8 or 9 wks, same results as 12? That's cool

[Black]

What's the main benefit of keeping it simple vs. going w/ test prop? Is it simply the amount of injections?

..minimizing water retention is a high priority for me.

Pretty much. Having never done them, you may get started and find out you'd rather stick yourself 1-2 times a week instead of 3-4 times.

I started out with Cypionate and then after a few years, switched over to Propionate . One more thing with prop other than the injections, is that the prop ester can cause injection site pain/swelling after injection. Some people it doesn't bother, but most it does. You will want an Aromatase Inhibitor with whatever ester you choose.

I hold less water with prop, than cyp ( never used Enanthate ). But, diet and AI will be the main factors of controlling water.

[king6 II]

Every day? Did you run out of places to pin?

And it even works faster, huh? 8 or 9 wks, same results as 12? That's cool

Results with every day pinning vs. EOD are the same, the only reason I did it is because I believe more stable blood levels equal less sides, although I could be completely off on that. I rotated injection sites between left quad right quad, left glute, right glute, left delt, right delt. I threw pecs in there as an experiment however, I found pec injections particularly painful.

[ickythump]

I've seen some charts that show how the compound is active in the blood (obv I didn't do the sTudy but it seemed legit) and it showed every other day injecting to yield stable blood levels. From what I understand, stable blood levels= less sides. I injected eod, test blend, and I did glutes and delts, quads once but never again...pip was manageable after a while (oops, post injection pain<--) in delts and glutes after I got steady handed and made sure I was injecting deep enough

[Black]

Results with every day pinning vs. EOD are the same, the only reason I did it is because I believe more stable blood levels equal less sides, although I could be completely off on that. I rotated injection sites between left quad right quad, left glute, right glute, left delt, right delt. I threw pecs in there as an experiment however, I found pec injections particularly painful.

I've seen some charts that show how the compound is active in the blood (obv I didn't do the sTudy but it seemed legit) and it showed every other day injecting to yield stable blood levels. From what I understand, stable blood levels= less sides. I injected eod, test blend, and I did glutes and delts, quads once but never again...pip was manageable after a while (oops, post injection pain<--) in delts and glutes after I got steady handed and made sure I was injecting deep enough

Just to touch on both a little bit, I will sometimes do ED injecting if the PIP is getting to me. By doing ED opposed to EOD, you are injecting less (volume wise) so the PIP will generally be less.

[ickythump]

Just to touch on both a little bit, I will sometimes do ED injecting if the PIP is getting to me. By doing ED opposed to EOD, you are injecting less (volume wise) so the PIP will generally be less.

That makes a lot of sense, and will be good for when and if I run anything that I know has pip, love to try tren one day lol