What is your favorite kickstart oral?

[ilovejuice]

Hello all, first thread here. First ill start with my history/ experience in bodybuilding. I am 25 next month, 180lbs 6". Yes a tall lanky looking mother. I have run 2 cycles in the past, once in high school when i first got into lifting. The second was april of 2012. When i first started playing around I didn't know dick about what i was putting into my body. Hense my first cycle being a dbol only cycle, and ended up with some irritated nips. My doctor told me I probably shouldn't be playing with things i know nothing about I took his advice for a few years, mainly because i had no one else to run to and hold my hand. but now I am turning 25 next month ill pretty much put about anything into my body (anabolic that is ). My second cycle was test e and Anavar , week1-12 test e 500mg, twice a week mon/thurs. anavar 60mg week1-6 and of course i didn't forget the clomid this time around. Anyways back to the main reason of this post. What is your favorite oral?
I am about to start a cycle in a month and i am on the fence with anavar/dbol/winstrol .
I loved the look dbol gave me in high school that bloated look my strength went up crazy, but i lost most of it probably mainly because of my shitty chicken nugget high school diet. I also loved the strength i had gotten and kept most of during my second cycle. I became extremely lean and vascular. I was considering to run a cycle such as this


(on the fence with either dbol or anavar. Ive read people have done both I am unsure and would appreciate more professional opinions)
Test p- 1-4 175mg Sat,Mon,Wed (Total 525mg EW)
NPP-1-8 125mg Sat,Mon,Wed (Total 375mg EW)
Test E- 4-12 250mg Mon, Thurs (Total 500mg EW)
D-bol- 1-6 30mg /ED Anavar1-6 50mg ED
Arimadex -1-12 .25mg ED
Also have some injectable winny was considering to throw in at the end to drop any excess water weight.

My other option is to kickstart with Dbol, 1-6 and throw in var at the end 7-12.... Feel free to post your opinion or past experiences!

[Lunk1]

You really should add a couple more compounds in since it's your third cycle.

[michael30]

You really should add a couple more compounds in since it's your third cycle.

Lunk are you sure 2 would be enough? I was thinking atleast 3 more?

[mod1-4]

Slow down Bostin loyd , if I was you I'd kick start with the dbol 30 Mgs a day for 4 weeks, run your test e from week 1 til the end. Save the prop til you have some mass on your body. Some will disagree but at 6' 180 you're skinny.

[ilovejuice]

I plan on running the test p/npp/test e no matter what, im just looking for your opinions on the orals

[ilovejuice]

I never ever ever considered doing anavar and dbol together till I read some people saying they have done both to get "the best of both worlds" considering I am on the fence between the both I thought about trying both aswell. Just my reasoning behind it.

[AD]

I plan on running the test p/npp/test e no matter what, im just looking for your opinions on the orals

if you're using nnp, prop would be the best test to go with it. with the same dosing frequency, you can load them in the same pin. so i don't really see why you want to switch to testE in the second half of your cycle.

if you want to switch to testE, you have to have an overlap period, so that your testP won't clear the system too quickly before your testE can build up.

if you stick to testP and NNP, then you won't need to consider the overlap period. and you also don't have to worry about a kick start, since both short esters will work fast enough. (for most people )

[michael30]

You are using to many compounds. Why not just use test p an npp? Then you dont need a kick start? I promise you running 5 compounds(test p,test e, npp, d-bol, anavar ) will give no more gains then running 2-3 at your level. Your wasting money and opening yourself up to alot more health risks an side effects too.

[ilovejuice]

My main reason to start with test p was to get the test kicking in sooner i was only going to switch to test e so i wouldnt have to pin as much but i guess ill just run prop all the way through. this really only leaves one more thing to decide. I really do want to run dbol for size. and i have injectable winny so i either run var to start and end with winny or dbol to start and end with winny. ps i dont consider the injectable winny being an oral anymore im just throwing it in to see what its like instead of taking the more potent livertoxic oral version of winny, which i was going to end my cycle with to begin with. suggestions?

[ironbeck]

Im gonna answer your question not ask you a bunch a shit you didnt ask for. I think d bol, t bol, or anavar .

[MuscleScience]

Compounds compete for the Same binding receptor, there is only one. This is called competitive inhibition, the more compounds you run the less effective the properties of each is. In effect, the strongest compound will block the weaker binding compounds. Secondly another physiological principle called the law of diminished returns dictates that the body can only react to a certain compound more strongly to a point. After that there is no increase in dose response but could be an increase in undesired effects.

[ilovejuice]

so doing dbol and anavar sounds counterproductive but people still seem to do it. I dont see THAT many threads about it but maybe ill try it next time to see what its like. I now see i am attempting to just do too much in one cycle. Its hard to have your heart set on what you want while summers coming up.

[AD]

btw, most people pin short esters eod, which is quite different from 3x/wk

[ilovejuice]

for example? literally monday/wednesday/friday/sunday/tuesday/thursday/saturday....so on and so forth?

[AD]

for example? literally monday/wednesday/friday/sunday/tuesday/thursday/saturday....so on and so forth?

yup, quite a pain isn't it

[MuscleScience]

so doing dbol and anavar sounds counterproductive but people still seem to do it. I dont see THAT many threads about it but maybe ill try it next time to see what its like. I now see i am attempting to just do too much in one cycle. Its hard to have your heart set on what you want while summers coming up.

Yes, more is not always better. In fact it can be counter productive. For example, anavar binds more strongly to the androgen receptor than dbol . It's a matter of chance that an anavar molecule will come into contact with the androgen receptor. That chance is increased by how strong of a chemical attraction that it has woth it's receptor. If you have 10 molecules of anavar and 10 of dbol floating around and 10 open androgen receptors free. 7 out of 10 will be occupied by the anavar molecule and will block the dbol molecule from binding. Since anavar binds strongly it will also occupy the receptor longer. Thus it has out competed and outlasted the dbol molecules.

[ilovejuice]

yup, quite a pain isn't it

I feel like a pin cushion already

[AsEpSiS]

Yes, more is not always better. In fact it can be counter productive. For example, anavar binds more strongly to the androgen receptor than dbol. It's a matter of chance that an anavar molecule will come into contact with the androgen receptor. That chance is increased by how strong of a chemical attraction that it has woth it's receptor. If you have 10 molecules of anavar and 10 of dbol floating around and 10 open androgen receptors free. 7 out of 10 will be occupied by the anavar molecule and will block the dbol molecule from binding. Since anavar binds strongly it will also occupy the receptor longer. Thus it has out competed and outlasted the dbol molecules.

Well said!

[AsEpSiS]

OP....after only running two cycles, there's NO need to run all of these compounds.

[ilovejuice]

yup, quite a pain isn't it

in that case should i may it simple, 100mg test 100mg npp eod?

[Back In Black]

Favourite oral for gaining mass? 6ft at 180lbs that would be food.

Good luck.

[ilovejuice]

Favourite oral for gaining mass? 6ft at 180lbs that would be food.

Good luck.

I eat every two hours.

[Back In Black]

I eat every two hours.

That doesn't matter or tell us anything.

Eat more.

[kelkel]

I eat every two hours.

Hit the nutrition forum and guys like BIB will help you out. If you say you eat every two hours and you're still 6' and 180lbs with several cycles under your belt then something is amiss with your nutrition and you will simply blow up a bit and then come right back down to 180lbs again. Which equals a waste of money.

[Docd187123]

Compounds compete for the Same binding receptor, there is only one. This is called competitive inhibition, the more compounds you run the less effective the properties of each is. In effect, the strongest compound will block the weaker binding compounds. Secondly another physiological principle called the law of diminished returns dictates that the body can only react to a certain compound more strongly to a point. After that there is no increase in dose response but could be an increase in undesired effects.

Do you really think though that saturation is going to be an issue with the dosages he's taking?

[austinite]

Do you really think though that saturation is going to be an issue with the dosages he's taking?

absolutely not.

[ilovejuice]

absolutely not.

Is that you in your avatar? If so good work!

[slfmade]

Is that you in your avatar? If so good work!

It's his mom.

[Docd187123]

absolutely not.

Neither do I

[MuscleScience]

Do you really think though that saturation is going to be an issue with the dosages he's taking?

Yep, especially since this is like his 3rd cycle. Over time you get up regulation of the AR receptor. If he was running Tren E absolutely, short esters help like npp. But again, that's a lot of compounds. Think of it like this, why do we run estrogen blockers when we get sides from test. The SERM goes and binds strongly to the estrogen receptor and blocks estrogen from binding thus blocking the sides for excessive E. It's also the basis of treatment for breast cancer.

[Docd187123]

Yep, especially since this is like his 3rd cycle. Over time you get up regulation of the AR receptor. If he was running Tren E absolutely, short esters help like npp. But again, that's a lot of compounds. Think of it like this, why do we run estrogen blockers when we get sides from test. The SERM goes and binds strongly to the estrogen receptor and blocks estrogen from binding thus blocking the sides for excessive E. It's also the basis of treatment for breast cancer.

I'm not necessarily recommending he use so many compounds on a 3rd cycle but with such low doses that he's referenced there is hardly room for receptor saturation. I'm not exactly sure how the SERM example relates to this issue. If receptor saturation is such a big deal why do we run more than one compound at once in any cycle? After all, they all act upon the same receptors in the end.

In looking over the proposed indirect effects of testosterone , and pondering the effectiveness of the synthetic anabolic /androgenic steroids , we must resist the temptation to believe we can categorize steroids as those which directly, and those which indirectly, promote muscle growth. The belief that there are two dichotomous groups or classes of steroids ignores the fact that all commercial steroids promote not only muscle growth but also androgenic effects. There is no complete separation of these traits at this time, making clear that all activate the cellular androgen receptor. I believe the theory behind direct and indirect steroid classifications originated when some noted the low receptor binding affinity of seemingly strong anabolic steroids like oxymetholone and methandrostenolone .18 If they bind poorly, yet work well, something else must be at work. This type of thinking fails to recognize other factors in the potency of these compounds, such as their long half-lives, estrogenic activity, and weak interaction with restrictive binding proteins (see: Free vs. Bound Testosterone ). While there may possibly be differences in the way various compounds could foster growth indirectly, such that advantages might even be found with certain synergistic drug combinations, the primary mode of action with all of these compounds is the androgen receptor. The notion that steroid X and Y must never be stacked together because they both compete for the same receptor when stimulating growth, while X and Z should be combined because they work via different mechanisms, should likewise not be taken too seriously. Such classifications are based on speculation only, and upon reasonable investigation are clearly invalid.

Excerpt From: Llewellyn, William. “Anabolics.” iBooks.

[MuscleScience]

I'm not necessarily recommending he use so many compounds on a 3rd cycle but with such low doses that he's referenced there is hardly room for receptor saturation. I'm not exactly sure how the SERM example relates to this issue. If receptor saturation is such a big deal why do we run more than one compound at once in any cycle? After all, they all act upon the same receptors in the end.

My point exactly, you only have so many androgen receptors to go around. If you have a compound X that has a stronger binding potential to the AR, another compound (Y) unless it is dosed much much higher than compound X, has a reduced chance to bind successfully. Compound Y may need to be dosed at twice the dosage as compound X. Keep in mind, we are talking about compounds that have similar half-lives simplistically speaking. So running similar ester compounds to each other like test p and NPP would be different than running NPP with Test E. Test E stays active for a much longer time frame than Test-p thus increasing its ability to successfully bind to a meaningful amount of AR to produce a desired effect when competing against another compound. Also Keep in mind they all do compete with each other.

I use SERMs as an example of this effect since it's well studied in the literature A SERM is a selective estrogen receptor mediator. Which means it's a molecule that blocks estrogen at the receptor site, which estrogen is a steroid hormone just the same as testosterone . SARM's do the same thing except block testosterone but I don't use that as an example because they are not nearly as well described in the research as SERMs and I have no formal experience with SARMs .

[ilovejuice]

I didn't think it was that big a deal considering the last cycle i did 750mg a week of test e, and eventually ended up doing 80mg of anavar ed

[ilovejuice]

all of the compounds that is, But now I see. I may just keep it simple do test p npp and dbol . I am trying to put some size on I just hate the thought of losing whatever size I get from the dbol

[MuscleScience]

Keep it simple, less risk and really concentrate on diet and getting adequate rest. Putting on muscle is a marathon not a sprint. It will come with time, if you do it the right way you shouldn't lose much size.

[Cuz]

all of the compounds that is, But now I see. I may just keep it simple do test p npp and dbol. I am trying to put some size on I just hate the thought of losing whatever size I get from the dbol

Well then don't do dbol ....look man. Dbol is like a sexy whore...you **** her for a few weeks and then she leaves you high and dry. Fun to run...but no benefit unless your in strength comp.

[ilovejuice]

do you think i would maintain more size after my cycle with anavar ?

[Black]

do you think i would maintain more size after my cycle with anavar?

Your diet and training will dictate that.

[MuscleInk]

Your diet and training will dictate that.

^^^Exactly. Eat less than your new TDEE and slow down on training and watch what happens. No gear provides permanent results - your habitual commitment to grow and sustain size trough eating and training determines the end result - ALWAYS.

[ironbeck]

Well then don't do dbol....look man. Dbol is like a sexy whore...you **** her for a few weeks and then she leaves you high and dry. Fun to run...but no benefit unless your in strength comp.

LMAO....that's priceless!!