Mad Cow Disease (CJD)

[Jedi1337]

This scared the hell out of me as i was taking growth earlier on in the year.

'Transmittable Alzheimer's' concept raised - BBC News

Fortunately it was the tools, not the juice, that was the problem. Still it did make me wonder if what i am getting is clean enough..

PARANOIA!

[Mr.BB]

This scared the hell out of me as i was taking growth earlier on in the year.

'Transmittable Alzheimer's' concept raised - BBC News

Fortunately it was the tools, not the juice, that was the problem. Still it did make me wonder if what i am getting is clean enough..

PARANOIA!

Its not paranoia. Unproperly folded GH can in fact give very serious diseases like BSE (mad cows).

Its very unlikely situation in pharma GH as they check batchs (many times batchs are discarted), but attempts to do 'generics' are very dangerous.

[MuscleScience]

They make GH from recombinate DNA, which means they have spliced genes that code for GH and put them in common yeast or ecoli and produced it in bioreactors. They use to either extract it directly from live animals like bears from the pituitary glands or by chopping up animal brains. Now they use recombinate technology for hormones like GH, HCG and such. There is no risk on contracting BSE or CJ disease from those sources.

[RangerDanger830]

BB, you're right. Muscle, you're wrong. Having spent many dreadfully monotonous hours with my good friends gene cloning and PCRs. I can tell you each batch needs to be quality tested.

Like BB said, improper folding could potentially cause an issue like Alzheimer's. We don't know if it does or doesn't, the article is inconclusive. But we know it's possible. Improper protein folding is known to cause many issues, to include longer term issues like Huntington's disease. This disease occurs later in life due to improperly shaped proteins accumulating over time which results in dying nerve cells.

There are many other issues that can go wrong with recombinant organisms. The vectors could fail, the enzymes could also fail to splice the proper DNA or splice the host bacteria properly. These could be due to faulty enzymes, we get ours from other labs sometimes. This could also result in faulty technique such as improper temperature regulation of sterility issues. Even something as simple as not having pure cultures of an organism still happens easily. I've seen it happen because researchers get complacent and do things like pull out a cell phone while in our PPE and contaminate it by texting and contaminating the specimen.

[MuscleScience]

Maybe I'm wrong, I've never seen any literature where Someone has come down with a prion disease from recombinate sources. Just because a GH peptide doesn't fold properly, doesn't mean it will be pathogenic in nature. It just means it wouldn't have any or the desired effect.

[Bonaparte]

"All of the deceased had caught their CJD from contaminated human growth hormone injections, given to them as children."

"Dr Eric Karran, director of research at Alzheimer's Research UK, said: "While the findings sound concerning, it's important to remember that human-derived hormone injections are no longer used and were replaced with synthetic forms since the link to CJD was discovered in the 1980s."

The article is specifically referring to GH harvested from human cadavers, as it was in the 80's. That some people contracted CJD is well documented. But this hasn't happened since they switched to recombinant GH.

To accidentally synthesize a CJD-like prion would be one hell of a monumental **** up, I would think, Ranger. But if you would like the properly warn the public of this threat to our safety, then please start your own concise thread (with something more compelling), rather than rudely derailing a simply-answered one with off-topic conjecture.

[jimmyinkedup]

Exactly, since cadaver extraction ceased the transmission of these diseases via GH ceased as well.

[Mr.BB]

Link provided by thisAngelBites: Protein Misfolding and Degenerative Diseases | Learn Science at Scitable

Just copying part of above link:

Misfolded Proteins and Neurodegenerative Diseases

Accumulation of misfolded proteins can cause disease, and unfortunately some of these diseases, known as amyloid diseases, are very common. The most prevalent one is Alzheimer's disease, which affects about 10 percent of the adult population over sixty-five years old in North America. Parkinson's disease and Huntington's disease have similar amyloid origins. These diseases can be sporadic (occurring without any family history) or familial (inherited). Regardless of the type, the risk of getting any of these diseases increases dramatically with age. The mechanistic explanation for this correlation is that as we age (or as a result of mutations), the delicate balance of the synthesis, folding, and degradation of proteins is perturbed, resulting in the production and accumulation of misfolded proteins that form aggregates (Figure 4; Finkel 2005).

Among the environmental factors known to increase the risk of suffering degenerative diseases is exposure to substances that affect the mitochondria, increasing the amount of oxidative damage to proteins. However, it is clear that no single environmental factor determines the onset of these disorders. In addition, there are genetic factors. For example, in the simplest forms of familial Parkinson's disease, mutations are associated with dominant forms of the disease. This means that an individual with a single copy of a defective gene will develop the disease, yet two copies of the defective gene are required for recessive forms of the disease to develop. In the case of Alzheimer's disease, and for other less common neurodegenerative diseases, the genetics can be even more complicated, since different mutations of the same gene and combinations of these mutations may differently affect disease risk (Dobson 2002, 2003; Chiti & Dobson 2006).

As we know, nowadays HGH is produced via recombinant dna technology using Escherichia coli cells. This process is very delicate and requires expensive equipment and technology. Just a small diference in batch temperature can produce wrongly folded proteins, which can promote the amyloid diseases the link talks about.
Im no expert in the subject, dont take me wrong, but the fact is that improperly folded GH have a chance to promote this diseases.

[Bonaparte]

That's assuming that GH is remotely similar in structure to a prion...and it isn't.

[MuscleScience]

Link provided by thisAngelBites: Protein Misfolding and Degenerative Diseases | Learn Science at Scitable Just copying part of above link: As we know, nowadays HGH is produced via recombinant dna technology using Escherichia coli cells. This process is very delicate and requires expensive equipment and technology. Just a small diference in batch temperature can produce wrongly folded proteins, which can promote the amyloid diseases the link talks about. Im no expert in the subject, dont take me wrong, but the fact is that improperly folded GH have a chance to promote this diseases.

Yes but here is what you have got to take into account. The human proteome is composed of literally billions of different proteins and variations of proteins. There are only a few classes of proteins that are implicated in degenerative neurological disease, to my knowledge HGH and similar classes of proteins are not. HGH specifically was not the cause of the disease, it was the prions that contaminated the cadaver derived HGH that was administered.

[MuscleScience]

Kuru disease would be a good analog to what we are discussing here.

https://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/...cle/001379.htm

[Mr.BB]

HGH specifically was not the cause of the disease, it was the prions that contaminated the cadaver derived HGH that was administered.

The cadaver derived GH problem is not what this topic is about, that was a known problem of the 90's.

The human proteome is composed of literally billions of different proteins and variations of proteins. There are only a few classes of proteins that are implicated in degenerative neurological disease, to my knowledge HGH and similar classes of proteins are not.

Do you know this for a fact? Are you biochemist especialized in GH?

Did you read the link above? It states that our body can improperly fold proteins. So our body can create harmfull proteins, but the Escherichia coli cells cant???

[MuscleScience]

BB, you're right. Muscle, you're wrong. Having spent many dreadfully monotonous hours with my good friends gene cloning and PCRs. I can tell you each batch needs to be quality tested. Like BB said, improper folding could potentially cause an issue like Alzheimer's. We don't know if it does or doesn't, the article is inconclusive. But we know it's possible. Improper protein folding is known to cause many issues, to include longer term issues like Huntington's disease. This disease occurs later in life due to improperly shaped proteins accumulating over time which results in dying nerve cells. There are many other issues that can go wrong with recombinant organisms. The vectors could fail, the enzymes could also fail to splice the proper DNA or splice the host bacteria properly. These could be due to faulty enzymes, we get ours from other labs sometimes. This could also result in faulty technique such as improper temperature regulation of sterility issues. Even something as simple as not having pure cultures of an organism still happens easily. I've seen it happen because researchers get complacent and do things like pull out a cell phone while in our PPE and contaminate it by texting and contaminating the specimen.

Why are you still using PCR based protocols instead of CRISPR/Cas based systems?

[MuscleScience]

The cadaver derived GH problem is not what this topic is about, that was a known problem of the 90's. Do you know this for a fact? Are you biochemist especialized in GH? Did you read the link above? It states that our body can improperly fold proteins. So our body can create harmfull proteins, but the Escherichia coli cells cant???

I do have biochemical background, yes:-)

What I'm pointing out is, a prion which is a disease causing agent and a misfolded protein are two completely different things. There are protective mechanisms in the body to prevent deleterious proteins from running amuck. There's a specific class of other proteins and molecules called molecular chaperon that fold peptides into the 3D structures that make them functional proteins or destroy them if they are not. Also at the level of DNA/RNA if a protein is not in a proper configuration it will not elicit a response.

I'm sure that one can make a bad batch of HGH from recombinant means. What I'm saying is, that I have not seen a peptide chain that's coded to make an HGH protein turn into a transmissible prion disease in the literature.

[Mr.BB]

There are protective mechanisms in the body to prevent deleterious proteins from running amuck. There's a specific class of other proteins and molecules called molecular chaperon that fold peptides into the 3D structures that make them functional proteins or destroy them if they are not. Also at the level of DNA/RNA if a protein is not in a proper configuration it will not elicit a response.

I'm sure that one can make a bad batch of HGH from recombinant means. What I'm saying is, that I have not seen a peptide chain that's coded to make an HGH protein turn into a transmissible prion disease in the literature.

If this protective mechnisms never fail why do we have parkinsons, alzheimers, huntingtons and others?

To conclude. IMO, from what I read, there is evidence that non-pharma HGH can contain improperly folded GH which there is a chance of promoting amyloid diseases, so I will never touch "generic" HGH.

[MuscleScience]

Cheers

[Bonaparte]

The cadaver derived GH problem is not what this topic is about, that was a known problem of the 90's.



Do you know this for a fact? Are you biochemist especialized in GH?

Did you read the link above? It states that our body can improperly fold proteins. So our body can create harmfull proteins, but the Escherichia coli cells cant???

There is no reason to believe that amyloidosis can be caused by injecting a shitty peptide chain.

To conclude. IMO, from what I read, there is evidence that non-pharma HGH can contain improperly folded GH which there is a chance of promoting amyloid diseases, so I will never touch "generic" HGH.

You just pulled this theory out of thin air (since I pointed out earlier that the article made no mention of CJD from actual recombinant hormones). There are plenty of reasons not to use generic GH, but amyloidosis/prions don't apply here.

[RangerDanger830]

Maybe I'm wrong, I've never seen any literature where Someone has come down with a prion disease from recombinate sources. Just because a GH peptide doesn't fold properly, doesn't mean it will be pathogenic in nature. It just means it wouldn't have any or the desired effect.

No you aren't that wrong, now that I re-read our posts I suppose I should have clarified. I may have misread your post. What I meant to argue with you was when you said there was no risk of mad cow's. My argument against you was essentially that there is risk in recombinant organisms and we cannot rule out any risk because we do not do a full QM process on each batch. Someone above mentioned using the wrong temp, I have been guilty of that. I will admit that the risk is very low, however we cannot rule it out. If we knew there was no chance of harmful DNA sequences then the GMO argument would not exist.

Also we do use Cas9, knowledgeable of you to catch that. It was when I was an undergraduate I was doing it as a work-study under the supervision of the dean of the bio department who happened to be a geneticist also. I had only heard of Cas9 at that time, he used it, but I had no idea how.

"All of the deceased had caught their CJD from contaminated human growth hormone injections, given to them as children."

"Dr Eric Karran, director of research at Alzheimer's Research UK, said: "While the findings sound concerning, it's important to remember that human-derived hormone injections are no longer used and were replaced with synthetic forms since the link to CJD was discovered in the 1980s."

The article is specifically referring to GH harvested from human cadavers, as it was in the 80's. That some people contracted CJD is well documented. But this hasn't happened since they switched to recombinant GH.

To accidentally synthesize a CJD-like prion would be one hell of a monumental **** up, I would think, Ranger. But if you would like the properly warn the public of this threat to our safety, then please start your own concise thread (with something more compelling), rather than rudely derailing a simply-answered one with off-topic conjecture.

First thing I want to say is I am sorry, I did not mean to come across as rude. I know I am long-winded so I have trying to be more concise. Not all proteins we genetically alter are prions. Quite a few have very specific structures. It would indeed be very rare for one to resemble MCD, I still would like to argue that it is still possible. If not MCD, any number of other genetical issues could arise. We just simply do not know everything about every genome we alter. If you would like more compelling evidence of my claims please let me know.

Here is an article discussing possible risks of rDNA. Don't get this confused with me being against it. I am all for it. I just like to know every facet, especially the risks, of what I do.

I will say I had no idea this article had basis in research in the 80s and had no idea GH was extracted from cadavers. Do you recall the thread from Andrea that asked about this? We all made fun of him pretty hard, maybe we should've gone a little easier on him since it was actually I thing at one point.

[MuscleScience]

No you aren't that wrong, now that I re-read our posts I suppose I should have clarified. I may have misread your post. What I meant to argue with you was when you said there was no risk of mad cow's. My argument against you was essentially that there is risk in recombinant organisms and we cannot rule out any risk because we do not do a full QM process on each batch. Someone above mentioned using the wrong temp, I have been guilty of that. I will admit that the risk is very low, however we cannot rule it out. If we knew there was no chance of harmful DNA sequences then the GMO argument would not exist. Also we do use Cas9, knowledgeable of you to catch that. It was when I was an undergraduate I was doing it as a work-study under the supervision of the dean of the bio department who happened to be a geneticist also. I had only heard of Cas9 at that time, he used it, but I had no idea how. First thing I want to say is I am sorry, I did not mean to come across as rude. I know I am long-winded so I have trying to be more concise. Not all proteins we genetically alter are prions. Quite a few have very specific structures. It would indeed be very rare for one to resemble MCD, I still would like to argue that it is still possible. If not MCD, any number of other genetical issues could arise. We just simply do not know everything about every genome we alter. If you would like more compelling evidence of my claims please let me know. Here is an article discussing possible risks of rDNA. Don't get this confused with me being against it. I am all for it. I just like to know every facet, especially the risks, of what I do. I will say I had no idea this article had basis in research in the 80s and had no idea GH was extracted from cadavers. Do you recall the thread from Andrea that asked about this? We all made fun of him pretty hard, maybe we should've gone a little easier on him since it was actually I thing at one point.

Got ya, I thought we were talking specifically about prion disease transmission from recombinant HGH. I was arguing people were confusing the risk of cadaver derived HGH and recombinate being that the transmission of CJD was dependent on HGH and not the method of production.

[RangerDanger830]

I have no doubt in my mind cadaver derived hgh would be more worrisome that those genetically engineered.