Decanoate esters- how do they work?

[almostgone]

i'd rather eat a steak.. no ester. what's the half life on that?

Depends on the cut of steak and the serving size. I ate a 24 oz. sirloin Friday afternoon and it stuck with me until mid-day on Saturday.

[workingout123]

Of course crea deca is better than mono. The half life in the blood of anti psychotic decanoates is 6-10 days so presumably it is the same for crea deca, and steroid decas (havn't read studies on them yet you can tell me how long their half lives are). The creatine wil be released slowly over 6-10 days. Also the fatty acid could diffuse into the cell with the crea/anti psychotic/steroid hormone attached to it which is good.

[kronik420]

Of course crea deca is better than mono. The half life in the blood of anti psychotic decanoates is 6-10 days so presumably it is the same for crea deca, and steroid decas (havn't read studies on them yet you can tell me how long their half lives are). The creatine wil be released slowly over 6-10 days. Also the fatty acid could diffuse into the cell with the crea/anti psychotic/steroid hormone attached to it which is good.

yea it is

[almostgone]

This decanoate ester of creatine still doesn't make sense, especially given the serving size they specify of 5g.
Typically a long estered compound is of a higher dosage so that you get a usable dosage over an extended period of time
IF there is any usable application of this, you would think the serving size would be larger so that an effective dosage would be delivered over a period of time rather trickling a miniscule dosage over a period of time.
Just saying....

[hammerheart]

Of course crea deca is better than mono. The half life in the blood of anti psychotic decanoates is 6-10 days so presumably it is the same for crea deca, and steroid decas (havn't read studies on them yet you can tell me how long their half lives are). The creatine wil be released slowly over 6-10 days. Also the fatty acid could diffuse into the cell with the crea/anti psychotic/steroid hormone attached to it which is good.

Those psy meds are injectable, parental way pharmacokinetics are different than oral.

[hollowedzeus]

Why would you want it to be slow released?

Hormones arent used as fuel at any given moment for muscle cells... hence the conveience of a deca ester.

For something that is used up by your body rapidly, surely you would just want to saturate tour muscle cells to maximum capacity and replenish when empty...

[GearHeaded]

Why would you want it to be slow released?

Hormones arent used as fuel at any given moment for muscle cells... hence the conveience of a deca ester.

For something that is used up by your body rapidly, surely you would just want to saturate tour muscle cells to maximum capacity and replenish when empty...

^ exactly . heck this is why its best to take creatine with fast acting carbs, as the fast uptake of glucose and water into the muscle cells will help pull with it the creatine (when muscular creatine stores are low).

slowing down absorption would be counter productive (unless your taking it in from a food source and just filling creatine stores over time, but as for a supplement the whole point is the rapid absorption)

[workingout123]

Yeh they inject them in the studies but the next best thing someone can do at home is transdermal to avoid all the enzymes in the guts. Mix with a little DMSO, glycerol, and water, and rub on the skin. Oral would might still work but less effective.

Slow releases is good. Maintain plasma levels for a long time, and some will be migrating into cells over that long time due to the fatty acid.

Anyway I am taking tokkyo nutritions product now transdermally. Will let you know how it goes.

[GearHeaded]

Yeh they inject them in the studies but the next best thing someone can do at home is transdermal to avoid all the enzymes in the guts. Mix with a little DMSO, glycerol, and water, and rub on the skin. Oral would might still work but less effective.

Slow releases is good. Maintain plasma levels for a long time, and some will be migrating into cells over that long time due to the fatty acid.

Anyway I am taking tokkyo nutritions product now transdermally. Will let you know how it goes.

why would you want to maintain high blood levels of creatine for a long time ??
the creatine in the blood stream is uselsss, let alone it being there for long periods of time.

generally high blood level concentrations of anything over a long time is a bad thing , high elevated blood sugar levels (bad), high elevated blood potassium levels (bad), high elevated tri-glycerides (bad) etc..

the purpose of things getting into the blood stream is for them to get taken in by the cell so that they can do what they were meant to do . if creatine monohydrate is rapidly absorbed, and not floating around the blood stream forever, then that is way more beneficial and healthy .

high blood levels of something for prolonged periods of time are generally considered disease , eg., type 2 diabetes (high blood sugar levels) , Hyperkalemia (high blood potassium).

so again , why do you think it would be a good thing to have super high blood serum levels of creatine over long periods of time ?

[workingout123]

why would you want to maintain high blood levels of creatine for a long time ??
the creatine in the blood stream is uselsss, let alone it being there for long periods of time.

generally high blood level concentrations of anything over a long time is a bad thing , high elevated blood sugar levels (bad), high elevated blood potassium levels (bad), high elevated tri-glycerides (bad) etc..

the purpose of things getting into the blood stream is for them to get taken in by the cell so that they can do what they were meant to do . if creatine monohydrate is rapidly absorbed, and not floating around the blood stream forever, then that is way more beneficial and healthy .

high blood levels of something for prolonged periods of time are generally considered disease , eg., type 2 diabetes (high blood sugar levels) , Hyperkalemia (high blood potassium).

so again , why do you think it would be a good thing to have super high blood serum levels of creatine over long periods of time ?

Not sure if serious or not. Before something can get taken up by cells it has to be in the blood . And the creatine molecule is the same wether it came from creatine monohydrate, creatine ethyl ester, creatine decanoate or any of the other types of creatine. And you inject steroid decanoate esters, have high blood levels of steroids for long periods of time, and you want to say high blood levels of certain things are bad?

Why do you hate creatine decanoate ester so much?

[GearHeaded]

And you inject steroid decanoate esters, have high blood levels of steroids for long periods of time, and you want to say high blood levels of certain things are bad?

actually maintaining high blood levels of hormones over a long period of time is what generally causes 'spill over' and negative side effects to come up from the steroid . personally I like fast esters that kick in quick and then quickly get bound to the receptor , its only at the receptor site that they are able to act on the DNA and illicit the benefits I'm taking the steroid for . it doe not do a whole lot of good just floating around the blood stream aimlessly , it needs to bind and illicit an action on a cell and receptor site.

[workingout123]

Sigh... yes but before it can bind any receptor site for a steroid or before an anti psychotic can bind a plasma protein or before creatine can get into cells they need to be in the blood so maintaining high blood levels over days is desirable. + the fatty acid might be able to pull whatever is bonded to it into the cell too which is good for creatine but not sure if good for steroids ? or anti psychotics.

[Couchlock]

Sigh... yes but before it can bind any receptor site for a steroid or before an anti psychotic can bind a plasma protein or before creatine can get into cells they need to be in the blood so maintaining high blood levels over days is desirable. + the fatty acid might be able to pull whatever is bonded to it into the cell too which is good for creatine but not sure if good for steroids? or anti psychotics.

Yeah, but a decanaote ester isn't going to release much at all

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[workingout123]

Yeah, but a decanaote ester isn't going to release much at all

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[GearHeaded]

decanaote has about a 68% absorption rate, where as a propiante is 92%, and suspension (no ester) is 99%.

decanaote esters are good for one thing, making it so you don't have to take the substance attached to that ester very often (slow and low absorption rate).
so someone with muscle wasting disease only needs to go in for a shot of nandrolone -decanaote about once every two weeks, which is more convenient then every other day with other esters (but again absorption is much less).


so I guess good for you , you only need to take your creatine - decanaoate 4 times per year . that sounds great, what a novel idea

[Couchlock]

Also decanate Esters have a 15 day half life again creatine attached to that is a solution to a problem that does not exist

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[workingout123]

15 day half life sheesh... that's awesome. Well yeh the half life of creatine in plasma is only 1.5 hours so adding the decanoate to it was a good idea.

taken every half life that is a dose every 24 days ha. Then why aren't all athletes taking that form of creatine? Maybe some do but keep their mouths shut about it...someone should be selling the stuff by the 1kg. The only commercially available form is tokkyo nutrition.

[Obs]

15 day half life sheesh... that's awesome. Well yeh the half life of creatine in plasma is only 1.5 hours so adding the decanoate to it was a good idea.

taken every half life that is a dose every 24 days ha. Then why aren't all athletes taking that form of creatine? Maybe some do but keep their mouths shut about it...someone should be selling the stuff by the 1kg. The only commercially available form is tokkyo nutrition.

You are ignorant as hell and I will be glad when your shit stirring ass is gone. You have no future here and need to move on. Couch is suspended because he gets pissed when little punks like you shun all advice and act like little know-it-all's. I am getting fed up as well.

We have recieved a surging wave of little punks like you and I am getting very tired of it and many others are too.
You need to take your creatine decanoate somewhere else. Literally everything you have said is totally ignoring any advice you have been given from couch, gearhead, and kelkel, to me. You are being a condescending twat on a board of guys that live this shit. Why are you here punk?

[workingout123]

I don't get what you mean talking about couchs suspension. It is a shame people like you exist on the earth. You must be very unhappy with your life to deliberately try to shut down other peoples curiosity, and their desire to find helpful supplements.

Thanks couch for saying the half life is 15 days that was very helpful information. Onwards for creatine decanoate !

[Obs]

I don't get what you mean talking about couchs suspension. It is a shame people like you exist on the earth. You must be very unhappy with your life to deliberately try to shut down other peoples curiosity, and their desire to find helpful supplements.

Thanks couch for saying the half life is 15 days that was very helpful information. Onwards for creatine decanoate !

Hopefully the admin sees the issue soon.

[workingout123]

Yeh so you censor anyone who actually tried to help people. Pathetic. I guess I will be banned soon. Thanks for the info couch on the half life. Good riddance everyone else.

[Obs]

You told six contributing members they were wrong in the snarkiest most smartass way you could, in the first page alone. Guys like you are gonna start disappearing or I will.

We lose members because of ass clowns like you.

[workingout123]

If you do actually lose members it is because of unhelpful people like you saying everything is bad except creatine monohydrate, and offering no help whatsoever.

[Gallowmere]

If you do actually lose members it is because of unhelpful people like you saying everything is bad except creatine monohydrate, and offering no help whatsoever.

No one said it was bad in and of itself. They said it was pointless, which it is.

What makes it bad, is that creatine esters are always sold at a massively increased price when compared to mono, to no added benefit. It's the old snake oil shakedown that preys upon the ignorance of the consumer.

[David LoPan]

i'd rather eat a steak.. no ester. what's the half life on that?

The half-life on Ester? Guess it depends on what she looks like.

[David LoPan]

Understanding the different esters and their active half-life is hard for a lot of people that do not have a science background. And it depends on if it is an oral or an injectable. All orals have the liver first pass effect which really changes what you take and what your get. I stopped doing creatine a few years ago. Did not really see much benefit for myself. But that is just me.

[marcus300]

Creatine is soooo old school there are far better choices these days

[workingout123]

Understanding the different esters and their active half-life is hard for a lot of people that do not have a science background. And it depends on if it is an oral or an injectable. All orals have the liver first pass effect which really changes what you take and what your get. I stopped doing creatine a few years ago. Did not really see much benefit for myself. But that is just me.

No it is obvious. This is why I said make a transdermal preparation of creatine decanoate instead of taking it orally. And yes you saw no benefit because you were taking all the shit forms; creatine monohydrate being the main one.

I got quoted 16 USD per kg of creatine decanoate by suppliers on ali baba. The problem is the minimum order quantity is 100kg. And it might get cheaper per kg then too so it is not very expensive. Maybe if a big ebay seller reads this they can think about re selling it.

I am looking into creatine for medical reasons not body building so I am not on roids.

Another form of creatine that looks good but seems impossible to get is creatine amide leucine/ creatyl l leucine. VPX sports had it in their old product cremtor, and they still have it in a drink product of theirs called bang but in very low amounts. It is probably highly bio available, and could use leucine transporters to enter cells along with creatine transporters. A manufacturer said they are very interested in it, and will look into making it.

[almostgone]

Very interesting that creatine decanoate is waaaaaay down at the bottom of the list of the amount of creatine content and creatine mono is #2. Creatine decanoate has less than half the amount of creatine as creatine mono.
Just confirms what I posted earlier, if creatine decanoate were to be effective, the dosage would be much higher than the 5g serving size Tokkyo suggests due to the decanoate ester.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/art...ort=objectonly

[hollowedzeus]

Why is the product a 5g blend of deca , ethyl ester and mono....?

So its not even 5g of sloe release creatine... its fuck knows how much of slow release....

*whispers* its probably all monohydrate... its cheap as chips

[Gallowmere]

Why is the product a 5g blend of deca , ethyl ester and mono....?

So its not even 5g of sloe release creatine... its fuck knows how much of slow release....

*whispers* its probably all monohydrate... its cheap as chips

And I'm sure it's an "uber-secret, high tech, ultra performance, muscle exploding, sex inducing, mega fat burning proprietary blend".

[hollowedzeus]

And I'm sure it's an "uber-secret, high tech, ultra performance, muscle exploding, sex inducing, mega fat burning proprietary blend".

What actually happens is they suspend the creatine in nandrolone to make it release slower. Then you rub it on your tummy and it allows for maximal gains

[Gallowmere]

What actually happens is they suspend the creatine in nandrolone to make it release slower. Then you rub it on your tummy and it allows for maximal gains

I would imagine that using it for an enema would make for better absorption.

[workingout123]

Why is the product a 5g blend of deca , ethyl ester and mono....?

So its not even 5g of sloe release creatine... its fuck knows how much of slow release....

*whispers* its probably all monohydrate... its cheap as chips

Possibly so when someone takes it, and notices a difference they aren't sure which form it is, and might think it is due to the CM or CEE. This maintains the industry lie that CM is the "best form of creatine there is, proven safe, and effective blah blah blah". If crea deca were sale alone people would take that, and so mono sales would drop.

Creatine decanoate has less than half the amount of creatine as creatine mono

Well considering it will be 1000000% times more bioavailable than CM 50% less by weight doesn't matter.

[almostgone]

Possibly so when someone takes it, and notices a difference they aren't sure which form it is, and might think it is due to the CM or CEE. This maintains the industry lie that CM is the "best form of creatine there is, proven safe, and effective blah blah blah". If crea deca were sale alone people would take that, and so mono sales would drop.



Well considering it will be 1000000% times more bioavailable than CM 50% less by weight doesn't matter.

Just so you know, that was the same argument put forth for creatine ethyl ester when it came on the market, and it was disproven. However they didn't stretch the bioavailability amount like you did.
I hope you enjoy your creatine decanoate

[workingout123]

Less than 1% of an oral dose of creatine mono makes it to the blood as actual creatine. Most of the other 99% makes it to the blood as creatININE. Creatine ethyl ester is way more bioavailable because it doesn't convert to creatinine in the stomach unlike mono however ethyl ester does not have the long half life like decanoates nor is it lipid soluble enough to penetrate cell membranes.

So you are wrong.

And I will enjoy my decanoate. But there may be something even better which I will try soon.

[almostgone]

Less than 1% of an oral dose of creatine mono makes it to the blood as actual creatine. Most of the other 99% makes it to the blood as creatININE. Creatine ethyl ester is way more bioavailable because it doesn't convert to creatinine in the stomach unlike mono however ethyl ester does not have the long half life like decanoates nor is it lipid soluble enough to penetrate cell membranes.

So you are wrong.

And I will enjoy my decanoate. But there may be something even better which I will try soon.

Umm, no I'm not.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/...ubmed_RVDocSum


In conclusion, when compared to creatine monohydrate, creatine ethyl ester was not as effective at increasing serum and muscle creatine levels or in improving body composition, muscle mass, strength, and power.

Edit: Again, I hope you enjoy your creatine decanoate or whatever else you try.

[Obs]

Less than 1% of an oral dose of creatine mono makes it to the blood as actual creatine. Most of the other 99% makes it to the blood as creatININE. Creatine ethyl ester is way more bioavailable because it doesn't convert to creatinine in the stomach unlike mono however ethyl ester does not have the long half life like decanoates nor is it lipid soluble enough to penetrate cell membranes.

So you are wrong.

And I will enjoy my decanoate. But there may be something even better which I will try soon.

You should try some humility. Good stuff.

[ghettoboyd]

I cant even believe the patience of you guys trying to talk sense into this guy...why are you all wasting your time?... he is obviously smarter than all of us and is onto some groundbreaking game changing revolutionary shit here we all should listen close and learn...I for one and throwing all my gear away and jumping on the real deca =creatine deconate...thank you op for overthinking this and re-inventing the wheel for us all...

[workingout123]

Umm, no I'm not.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/...ubmed_RVDocSum


In conclusion, when compared to creatine monohydrate, creatine ethyl ester was not as effective at increasing serum and muscle creatine levels or in improving body composition, muscle mass, strength, and power.

Edit: Again, I hope you enjoy your creatine decanoate or whatever else you try.

Umm we already established the industry lie is to say all other forms of creatine are not as good as mono. The lie extends all the way to the literature. However the lie is not in the patents. In there they say the reality of mono that it all converts to creatinine in the stomach, causes stomach cramps, liver, and kidney problems etc.

You should try some humility. Good stuff.

Says a guy who probably thinks he is better than everyone else because of his big muscles he got not mainly due to working but simply just injecting steroids a few times a week. Right....

I cant even believe the patience of you guys trying to talk sense into this guy...why are you all wasting your time?... he is obviously smarter than all of us and is onto some groundbreaking game changing revolutionary shit here we all should listen close and learn...I for one and throwing all my gear away and jumping on the real deca =creatine deconate...thank you op for overthinking this and re-inventing the wheel for us all...

Well tokkyo nutrition must be the real genius or the chemist who first made creatine decanoate ester. Not that it would be hard. Maybe simpletones like you think it is though.