Hitting natural limit vs starting AAS sooner

[GearHeaded]

the general consensus that you hear parroted on forums and in gyms all the time is that you should wait until you hit your maximum natural genetic potential before starting to use steroids .

I'm just wondering what you guys think about this and your opinions are.

instead of give my opinion I'll just give a thought and example

lets say we have two identical twins. twin A and twin B, with the same exact muscle building genetics.

- both twins jump on the same training, diet and nutrition plan and start training at age 20
- both twins make progress and get over their 'newbie' gains phase over a 3 year period
- Twin A decides to stay natty , Twin B decides to run AAS cycles and HGH and other growth factors (at 23)
- Twin A keeps building his natty status for 3 more years to max out his natural potential and then gets on the same AAS protocols as his twin brother at age 26

When both these twins hit age 30 , who is going to be the bigger badder specimen , twin A or twin B

Twin A trained until he hit his natty max . Twin B started AAS earlier. But by time they both hit 30 , Twin B has had 3 more years to develop more muscle cells (satellite cell proliferation), androgen receptors, and other growth factors and at a much more accelerated rate from early on.

isn't that going to play a big factor on who is more jacked when they both hit 30. seems like Twin B would definitely have the edge here. what do you guys think?

[Obs]

the general consensus that you hear parroted on forums and in gyms all the time is that you should wait until you hit your maximum natural genetic potential before starting to use steroids .

I'm just wondering what you guys think about this and your opinions are.

instead of give my opinion I'll just give a thought and example

lets say we have two identical twins. twin A and twin B, with the same exact muscle building genetics.

- both twins jump on the same training, diet and nutrition plan and start training at age 20
- both twins make progress and get over their 'newbie' gains phase over a 3 year period
- Twin A decides to stay natty , Twin B decides to run ASS cycles and HGH and other growth factors (at 23)
- Twin A keeps building his natty status for 3 more years to max out his natural potential and then gets on the same AAS protocols as his twin brother at age 26

When both these twins hit age 30 , who is going to be the bigger badder specimen , twin A or twin B

Twin A trained until he hit his natty max . Twin B started AAS earlier. But by time they both hit 30 , Twin B has had 3 more years to develop more muscle cells (satellite cell proliferation), androgen receptors, and other growth factors and at a much more accelerated rate from early on.

isn't that going to play a big factor on who is more jacked when they both hit 30. seems like Twin B would definitely have the edge here. what do you guys think?

Twin B.
Who has the greater potential?

Unless he is running ASS cycles instead of AAS

[GearHeaded]

Twin B.
Who has the greater potential?

Unless he is running ASS cycles instead of AAS

lol, edit completed

[Obs]

My biggest problem with endorsing people to use is the idea of shutting down a developing htpa. It is not proven but is possible.

If a man trains to full natural development he would be much better off in my opinion.

Also, it seems to be a moral thing to teach the cookie cutter advice to a bunch of guys that will remember AAS as a period of their youth.

If we are talking all in balls out, going for broke, obs, get big or die trying...

I wish I had never fucking stopped at 22-23.
I would be one of the biggest guys on this forum.

[Obs]

Whoops double penetration

[Gallowmere]

Twin B would definitely be further along. Three years of natural work, no matter how hard, is going to be getting curb stomped by the diminishing returns fairy the whole time. Meanwhile, the twin running cycles will also be running circles around the other’s progress.

As obs pointed out, there are other things to consider for an actual application basis. However, if we’re talking pure gains and performance, B will be in a better place every time, barring things that can’t be controlled for and even twins would diverge in, such as injury rates.

If I hadn’t been such a lazy sack of shit in my teens and twenties, and knowing then what I know now, I’d have probably started lifting and cycling in my late teens. I can confidently say this now, as I still hate the idea of having children in my 30s, and am in no way freaked out by the idea of having to run TRT permanently.

The only reason that I’ve not started yet, is because I am a late start lifter and haven’t even laid a passable foundation for gear yet, even at 33 years old (5’10”, 170, 1.5 years lifting).

[Obs]

Twin B would definitely be further along. Three years of natural work, no matter how hard, is going to be getting curb stomped by the diminishing returns fairy the whole time. Meanwhile, the twin running cycles will also be running circles around the other’s progress.

As obs pointed out, there are other things to consider for an actual application basis. However, if we’re talking pure gains and performance, B will be in a better place every time, barring things that can’t be controlled for and even twins would diverge in, such as injury rates.

If I hadn’t been such a lazy sack of shit in my teens and twenties, and knowing then what I know now, I’d have probably started lifting and cycling in my late teens. I can confidently say this now, as I still hate the idea of having children in my 30s, and am in no way freaked out by the idea of having to run TRT permanently.

The only reason that I’ve not started yet, is because I am a late start lifter and haven’t even laid a passable foundation for gear yet, even at 33 years old (5’10”, 170, 1.5 years lifting).

Brother, kids are for those settled down. I know it sounds bad but if you meet that one... You will have kids.

[Gallowmere]

Brother, kids are for those settled down. I know it sounds bad but if you meet that one... You will have kids.

Nope. I’ve already met mine, and she already has one. I think the world of him, but I still have no interest in producing my own. I think it’s my borderline Hitler-ish views on genetics that make me want to puke at the idea of spreading my own. I have a laundry list of genetic predispositions that I’d love to see erased from the gene pool, so I’ll be damned if I’d ever pour them back in.

[Clove1234]

Lol at ass cycles

[cousinmuscles]

This thread and the arguments sound really familiar. What strikes me most is the lack of a humane point of view regarding whether they have developed enough mentally to make decisions they won't regret not due to inexperience but due to smaller frontal lobes. Also whether that was their true passion in life such that they believe the rewards outweigh the risks (in this case, the possibility of an earlier death). And also if they kept pushing through those difficult stagnation points in their natural training so that they learn what their body responds best to and the time needed to experiment with different training methods.

But I guess that's irrelevant because we can make theoretical assumptions on what will happen, when and how, in this race of bulks and cuts with every vial you can buy at a cool looking webshop. I mean look at how many logs you can find on the web from guys on forums that you know are real people, using every vial of salt *cough* peptide inducing satellite cell proliferation...

A bit harsh on my part but in my honest opinion a meaningless discussion. Of course the one using AAS will be bigger. Whether that is what they should do it not, that would be a more interesting discussion.

[GearHeaded]

A bit harsh on my part but in my honest opinion a meaningless discussion. Of course the one using AAS will be bigger. Whether that is what they should do it not, that would be a more interesting discussion.

choosing to use or not use is an interesting discussion that may have life altering effects . eg., Arnold would probably not be who he is and had the successful career he has had, and influenced the millions of people he has, if he had chosen NOT to do steroids .
and on the opposite end of the spectrum Rich Piana may still be alive if he had chosen to not do steroids (but then again, Cocaine increases cardiac events by 2700% and if he was using that then he'd still prob of end up with heart failure)

[cousinmuscles]

Sure that holds some truth but I still find it a very bland and pointless discussion. The AAS user will get bigger, that is a painfully obvious fact. Whether the gains that come 3 years earlier end up making them a celebrity, I don't know. I'd bet on winning the lottery instead.

I think it is sad to not take into consideration if you really want to pursue some goals with bbing/lifting in general and just jump on steroids because you felt you were a genius for figuring out you could do it earlier. If you're that much of a talent, say Larry Wheels type talent, you'll have trainers making you do things right and there will actually be a reason for you to think "damn I might have missed out" had you not pursued those goals.

[TRTdrew]

I like the question and the hypothetical. I can offer a different perspective. I’m 40 years old and I was recently put on TRT because I have legitimately low testosterone and I needed the treatment.

It’s the TRT that has led me here. It wasn’t the training and cycling that led me to the TRT.

That being said I have decided I’m going to give myself about a year to train and adjust to the TRT before I blast. There is NO WAY I’m waiting until I hit my natural potential. I’m already 40. I don’t have the time.

Also it is not my goal to have a competition worthy physique. I just want to build some muscle and feel good about myself. So NO WAY I’m waiting to hit my natural potential. NO WAY!

Merry Christmas! I really like this forum. Cheers everyone!

[cousinmuscles]

No disrespect meant guys and GH I think you give awesome advice!

[GearHeaded]

No disrespect meant guys and GH I think you give awesome advice!

thanks . yeah I've got no 'dog in this fight', so no offense of dis respect taken on my end. I just started the thread to illicit some discussion and see what guys think

[MuscleScience]

I’ve seen this senerio play out in real life. Playing college athletics I seen guys who came into college full blown men. Where as some are still basically boys, physique maturity wise. I’ve seen steroids turn them into men almost over night catching them up with their peers.

I know for me, I spent many many years training to reach the ability to bench 225 for 5 reps, squat 315 for 5 reps and deadlift 405 for reps and maintain a lean 195-200lbs If I took any time off, it took me months and months just to get back there. I waited until I was 25 but wished every day that I started in highschool at 16 or 17. After just one crappy little sust 250 cycle for 8 weeks. It completely transformed my body and turned me into a mature man. After that cycle I could pound out 225 for 15-20 reps even after not training for long periods of time. 315 was my warmup on squat and 405 on deadlift was like lifting just the bar. I think for some guys that physical maturity wise, it can be the great equalizer to help them catch up to their peers. Granted I had some Low T issues from some health issues I had in childhood. But even saying that, One cycle changed my body for the better in my eyes.

[David LoPan]

I am going with Twin A. Where twin B might look like a winner in this sprint he is not. Twin B might appear more jacked but appearances can be deceiving. Twin B is at great risk for mental health issues, health issues among a list of other things. Twin A would be able to catch up due to more knowlege, determination and advancments in medicine. Twin A have less risk of injury, better self esteem and a greater self worth.

The years after 30 would show all the issues that twin B has due to not letting his natural development.

[Quester]

Resiliency studies show that around 85% of the people we would consider to be the most successful have overcome a traumatic life event. I'm going with the 30 yr old that to do it the hard way. The one who had to work for it is going to have a more successful CAREER and LIFE.

[David LoPan]

Resiliency studies show that around 85% of the people we would consider to be the most successful have overcome a traumatic life event. I'm going with the 30 yr old that to do it the hard way. The one who had to work for it is going to have a more successful CAREER and LIFE.

I would agree. Twin A saw Twin B take the shortcut and grow faster and bigger, he would up his game during the last 3 years of his natural potential.

[tectime]

Man what a subject for discussion! In this case and what a great scenario you layed out Gearhead, I don't feel like there's much difference in starting at 23 or 26. If both, after starting follow the same protocols with identical genetic potential's, same drive, same everything, eat together, train together, rest together, every imaginable factor identical I don't think you would see any physical differences in either. Not at age 30. Twin a would get the benefit of twin b figuring all the ins and outs of starting this game and his initial cycle should explode him. Then after 4 years of identical training I would think that he would have gained muscle maturity to equal twin babies.

[tectime]

On the health factors of starting at the age 23 versus the 826 again I don't think there's enough different age 26 is still really too young. No one really knows the exact age everyone reaches hormonal maturity. So that little bit of gap at that young of an age who's to say.

[tectime]

And I don't think starting steroids at an early age is going to damage any one's confidence or ability to complete any task. I don't consider steroids a shortcut I consider steroids the next step in a very long process !

[GearHeaded]

wondering why some of you guys would assume that the natural twin is somehow going to work harder cause he's natural.

I've been natty for years , and I've been on gear for years . I can say that anytime I'm running a cycle I'm working a hell of a lot harder or at least as hard as my natty self.

why assume that a natural lifter somehow works harder ? why assume that an enhanced lifter is taking short cuts and does not have a hard working mind set then a natural lifter ?

my thoughts are guys like Branch Warren (who use AAS), an IFBB pro, probably has worked harder throughout his career then most any all natural Pro . just an opinion.

besides, running heavy ass ASS cycles is hard damn work in and of itself . not being able to sleep , tren insomnia and night sweats, getting tired walking up one flight of stairs, being hot and sweating all the time, being anabolic and anxious all the time , thats some pain in the ass hard shit that natties never have to deal with
add on top of that the 20 injections per week, staying on top of your dosages, ancillaries, and studying all the time to make sure you know your doing shit right in regards to AAS . its hard work.

natties just train, count their macros, and thats about it. a lot more work goes into being enhanced. its the difference like maintaining a ford focus compared to a formula one race car (a lot more work goes into maintenance on the race car)

[GearHeaded]

another question . do you guys think that Phil Heath would be a 7 time mr Olympia right now if he would have started AAS use 4 years later then he did ? would he have benefited by staying natural for 4 years longer to develop his natty physique further before getting on gear, would his physique be better now because of it ??

personally I think he'd be a 2 x mr Olympia at most if he did that , and that his physique currently would need more years and more size to catch up for the time lost.

[kronik420]

what if the twins had different diet/training plans and say twin A was 6ft 205 lbs 15%bf and twin B was 6ft 170 lbs 15%bf, and they both want to start using AAS, would you give them the same advice?

[Obs]

another question . do you guys think that Phil Heath would be a 7 time mr Olympia right now if he would have started AAS use 4 years later then he did ? would he have benefited by staying natural for 4 years longer to develop his natty physique further before getting on gear, would his physique be better now because of it ??

personally I think he'd be a 2 x mr Olympia at most if he did that , and that his physique currently would need more years and more size to catch up for the time lost.

Do I train harder than natties?
baaahaaaahaaaaahaaaaahaaa! I train harder than natties taking a sheeeeit!

There hasn't been a natural top level pro since 1950. If anyone doesn't understand the added intensity given by aas they are using it wrong. If someone is serious about building they are gonna have to get real and come on over to the darkside.

[GearHeaded]

what if the twins had different diet/training plans and say twin A was 6ft 205 lbs 15%bf and twin B was 6ft 170 lbs 15%bf, and they both want to start using AAS, would you give them the same advice?

if genetics are equal , then twin B has at least 35 pounds of muscle to put on naturally still.

I'm not sure what type of a diet and training program could have him 35 pounds of muscle behind his twin though (maybe a diet consisting of heroin and training consisting of 8 hour cardio sessions).

again, if genetics are equal. Twin B only needs to actually train and he'll get noob gains fairly quickly to put that 35 pounds on. no AAS use needed

[charger69]

Ok GH this is where I differ in opinion with you. No disrespect. You have more knowledge than I could ever get. I agree with all of your reasoning. The only thing that is not considered is the risk involved.
I may be a little biased because I was totally against AAS until I tried to keep up with the young ones who were cycling while I was natural and much older. I crossed the line to continue competing. Once I found this site, I also tried cycling by the book which only would permit one bulk and one cut cycle. I also soon realized that you had to take more risk in your cycling to compete.
The good thing about cycling made me realize that I had low test and I thought that it was just a process of aging.
I take risks, although I try to be safe, that I would not recommend to others who do not compete. To a point , I am hypocritical. There are too many people out there that think that AAS is magic and the diet isn’t that important.

[MuscleScience]

wondering why some of you guys would assume that the natural twin is somehow going to work harder cause he's natural.

I've been natty for years , and I've been on gear for years . I can say that anytime I'm running a cycle I'm working a hell of a lot harder or at least as hard as my natty self.

why assume that a natural lifter somehow works harder ? why assume that an enhanced lifter is taking short cuts and does not have a hard working mind set then a natural lifter ?

my thoughts are guys like Branch Warren (who use AAS), an IFBB pro, probably has worked harder throughout his career then most any all natural Pro . just an opinion.

besides, running heavy ass ASS cycles is hard damn work in and of itself . not being able to sleep , tren insomnia and night sweats, getting tired walking up one flight of stairs, being hot and sweating all the time, being anabolic and anxious all the time , thats some pain in the ass hard shit that natties never have to deal with
add on top of that the 20 injections per week, staying on top of your dosages, ancillaries, and studying all the time to make sure you know your doing shit right in regards to AAS . its hard work.

natties just train, count their macros, and thats about it. a lot more work goes into being enhanced. its the difference like maintaining a ford focus compared to a formula one race car (a lot more work goes into maintenance on the race car)

I agree with GH on this one 100%


The single biggest positive effect that AAS allows a person IS to train HARDER than anyone could naturally. AAS stimulates the body and all its mechanism to allow for maximum recovery.

A person on can physically train harder for longer, more frequently than someone who isn’t. It’s a matter of scientific enhancement. AAS major effect is to promote recovery from a workout more fully between workout bouts. Very very few natural lifters could hang with that recovery ability vs an AAS user. Sure there might be an extreme exception to the rule like Mike Oheern but in reality, the exemption is not the rule.

[Obs]

I agree with GH on this one 100%


The single biggest positive effect that AAS allows a person IS to train HARDER than anyone could naturally. AAS stimulates the body and all its mechanism to allow for maximum recovery.

A person on can physically train harder for longer, more frequently than someone who isn’t. It’s a matter of scientific enhancement. AAS major effect is to promote recovery from a workout more fully between workout bouts. Very very few natural lifters could hang with that recovery ability vs an AAS user. Sure there might be an extreme exception to the rule like Mike Oheern but in reality, the exemption is not the rule.

I agree with all of it but am curious what an all natural pro looks like...

[David LoPan]

wondering why some of you guys would assume that the natural twin is somehow going to work harder cause he's natural.

I've been natty for years , and I've been on gear for years . I can say that anytime I'm running a cycle I'm working a hell of a lot harder or at least as hard as my natty self.

why assume that a natural lifter somehow works harder ? why assume that an enhanced lifter is taking short cuts and does not have a hard working mind set then a natural lifter ?

my thoughts are guys like Branch Warren (who use AAS), an IFBB pro, probably has worked harder throughout his career then most any all natural Pro . just an opinion.

besides, running heavy ass ASS cycles is hard damn work in and of itself . not being able to sleep , tren insomnia and night sweats, getting tired walking up one flight of stairs, being hot and sweating all the time, being anabolic and anxious all the time , thats some pain in the ass hard shit that natties never have to deal with
add on top of that the 20 injections per week, staying on top of your dosages, ancillaries, and studying all the time to make sure you know your doing shit right in regards to AAS . its hard work.

natties just train, count their macros, and thats about it. a lot more work goes into being enhanced. its the difference like maintaining a ford focus compared to a formula one race car (a lot more work goes into maintenance on the race car)

He would work harder due to his twin brother gains. I would think something would happen in his mind that would make him try to catch up naturally, ie work harder, eat better, do more reseach, etc. I have a few freinds that are twins and they are very competivaive against each other. So in my mind, the twin on AAS would see the restults vs the natty one. So I think the natty one would do that little extra to get gains where the one on AAS would be happy with results. Also the twin natty would be able to see what will work best for him, all things equal, where the one on AAS would be going on trail and error, so the natty twin would have a better play book.

This is a unique situation where we are holding all things equal where we all know in life all things are not equal.

[David LoPan]

another question . do you guys think that Phil Heath would be a 7 time mr Olympia right now if he would have started AAS use 4 years later then he did ? would he have benefited by staying natural for 4 years longer to develop his natty physique further before getting on gear, would his physique be better now because of it ??

personally I think he'd be a 2 x mr Olympia at most if he did that, and that his physique currently would need more years and more size to catch up for the time lost.

I think it takes a different mindset to want to be the best at Body Building for competition. I would agree that if your goals is to be the best Body Builder then AAS is a must.

[charger69]

I think it takes a different mindset to want to be the best at Body Building for competition. I would agree that if your goals is to be the best Body Builder then AAS is a must.

I tried competing naturally with others who were on gear. I just realized that I had to go on gear to keep up. They were in their 20's and I was in my 40's.
There is no way Phil would have benefitted being natural longer (excluding the health risks).
I assume that he would grow,into his cycle and then up the ante. He would have missed 4 years of doing this if he went natural.
Someone mentioned what a natural body builder looks like. Your whole approach is so different. I would say it is rare for someone naturlly to get below 7-8% bf naturally. I look back at my natural physique on stage and I sort of looked like I had AIDS (i still got 2nd place).
IMO there is no doubt that you need to cycle to reach your extreme potential. Is it worth the risk? At this point in time I say yes. There will come a point when I say no. As my age increases, I need to keep a closer eye on my bw and make adjustments. Before, I did not need to be so cautious.

[GearHeaded]

I agree with all of it but am curious what an all natural pro looks like...

naturals generally look 'sickly' when they get to low BF needed to be on stage

[Obs]

naturals generally look 'sickly' when they get to low BF needed to be on stage

Cancer of the aids.

[charger69]

naturals generally look 'sickly' when they get to low BF needed to be on stage

Yep. That's what I was trying to describe in words. that sort of sums up how I looked...... Maybe without the "sickly". LOL

[Gallowmere]

I’ve seen a couple of natural pros who don’t look like concentration camp escapees, but I can count them on one hand with fingers to spare.

[MuscleScience]

I think where Body builders really destroy their health is honestly very high calorie diets, insulin , diuretics and stimulants. Oh and some of those that run crazy high amounts of gear for long periods of time.

It’s so hard to explain to a young kid or someone not into the life style that people in the magazines and placing on stage are the genetically gifted. They look at a weight and they grow. Look at that Calum Von Moger dude. That guy eats cheese burgers after every workout and barely diets for shows.

In another thread Marcus says you either got it or you don’t. No amount of gear will change your genetics. Phil Heath was built like a brick shithouse when he played college ball already. He just decided to start bodybuilding because he said he could put on muscle well. Ronnie was winning shows all natural at the beginning of his career. He didn’t even want to compete at first.

But on the flip side of all that. Some people respond maybe not so much to resistance exercise, but when they do go on gear, explode! I knew a guy that was 135lbs and 6’4’ when he started working out. Took him 3 years to get to 185 then he hit a wall and stayed there for a couple years. Then someone introduced him to gear and within a year was pushing 300lbs solid.

Again, someone either gots it or they don’t.

[kelkel]

I thought this thread was about ASS?

[Obs]

again, someone either gots it or they dont.

i gots the fuk outta this.