Second opinion on my first cycle

**Arcânn** · 07-06-2018, 09:07 PM

Hey guys,

I'm fairly confident in my first cycle plan and I've had it looked at on another forum, but I don't particularly trust that forum because it appeared to me that they were pushing specific products that sponsored that site. I won't say who since I'm not trying to bash anyone, but the moderators were heavily pushing HCGenerate and no one apart from them seems to have ever gotten anything from that. I just need a second opinion from you guys. And sorry for the long post, but I've got some very specific questions that need to be addressed if I'm going to do this right.

First off, here are my stats:

28 years old
6’2”
212 lbs
~12-13% BF

I’ve been working out for around 5 years. When I first started working out seriously at 23 years old my stats were:

6’2”
145-150 lbs
~7% BF

Here’s my plan for my first cycle:

• Test E – 300 mg/wk for 12 weeks. Start PCT 4-5 weeks after last pin.
• Arimidex starting at 0.5 mg E3D and work my way up depending on blood work and how I feel.
• HCG – I’m having a little difficulty figuring out a good way to dose this, but for 300 mg/wk test, I’m thinking 250iu’s every 4-5 days while on cycle is a good place to start? I’ll definitely need some guidance on HCG though.
• PCT – Nolvadex and Clomid for 4 weeks. Nolva: 40/20/20/20 (mg/day) – Clomid 50/50/25/25

I’m wanting to use 300mg instead of the traditional 500mg for a first cycle because towards the end of my research on this, I came across some information about people having more manageable sides (especially while on other compounds) when they lowered their test and increased whatever they were using. So I decided to look further into this and it seems to be across the board that when people use no more than 300mg, they have much better cycles. Obviously, I’ll have to figure it out for myself in future cycles, but I have a feeling it’ll be a better idea for me to use a relatively low dose of test while on other compounds, and I see no reason why I can’t make some reasonable gains on 300mg. I figure it’s best to start small and work my way up anyway.

I’m choosing arimidex for my AI because there seems to be less of a risk of crashing your estro than with aromasin . Although adex appears to be worse for cholesterol. Aromasin seems to be something that should only be used if you REALLY know what you’re doing. The only other AI I’ve seen is femara and that also appears to be something only a more experienced person should use, as it seems that can also get your estro dangerously low on a very small dose. Some people say an AI is optional or should only be used when you start getting estro sides, but that seems silly to me. Shouldn’t I prevent the rise in estro at least to some degree, from the beginning?

I plan on using HCG throughout the cycle until I start PCT. Is using it during PCT a good idea if I used it on cycle? I know a lot of people either use it during cycle or during PCT, but I haven’t come across anyone I can remember who does both. And I’ve seen people’s dosing of HCG vary so wildly from person to person that it’s hard for me to even guess at where to start, although bloodwork should help me adjust the dose.

As far as I’ve been able to tell, nolva and clomid are the only real PCTs out there. I looked for more but didn’t find much info on anything and what little I did find basically said anything else was BS. I know some people only use one or the other, especially on low doses of test. From what I understand, it’s only necessary to use one for this situation, but I figure both can’t hurt. Is doing both overkill for 300mg? I figure shutdown is shutdown, and needs to be responded to accordingly. Also, the doses I had planned were from when I originally planned on doing 500mg, but at the moment, I see no reason to adjust the doses. Correct me if I’m wrong.

I plan on getting bloodwork done a few weeks before cycle, during cycle, and after PCT. While on cycle, is there a certain time that’s best for getting bloods done? I was thinking every 3-4 weeks during cycle and PCT and then maybe a month or two after PCT just to make sure everything’s normalizing, then again before my next cycle. Also, what’s a good time for bloods in terms of making sure gear is legit? I’ve heard 2 weeks and 4 weeks. On test E, I feel like 3-4 weeks into the cycle is probably best?

Also, I know that when doing bloods, it’s important to check for test levels, estro levels, cholesterol, liver enzymes (although I doubt that’s much of an issue for a test only cycle), and red blood cell count. Is there anything else I’m leaving out that also needs to be monitored?

As far as estro, when using an AI, is there a certain level or number of estro I need to maintain, or is it more of a ratio between test/estro that I need to have?

I’ve heard that bridging cycles with SARMs is a good idea but I’ve heard very mixed things about that so before doing anymore research on that, I wanted to ask you guys about your personal experience and if it’s generally a good idea or if it’s all BS. It appears that the two big ones people use are Ostarine and S-4. I didn’t know if there was a general one that’s needed as a base in the same way that test is generally needed as a base for cycles? I just want general info about that though. I’ll look into the specifics of SARMs myself if I decide it’s a good idea.

And is there anything major I’ve left out of this?

I’m sorry for the ridiculously long post but I figured I needed to give as much detail about my knowledge as I can so that there’s more to correct me on if I’m wrong. I’m not trying to go into this recklessly. If I’m being an idiot, tell me, since I know a lot of noobs come into this with completely the wrong idea of how it all works.

**Mr.BB** · 07-07-2018, 05:36 AM

You are right about hcgenerate, its just herbs with a stupid name to let the more distracted think its human chorionic gonadotropin (HCG ).

SARMs are suppressive and its anabolic rating doesn't even come closer to regular steroids . The ones that aren't suppressive are not really SARMs and are useless.

If you want to do 300mg go ahead, but if you are going to shut down your balls better to make it a dose that is known to give good gains and low sides effects.

Basically just follow this: https://forums.steroid.com/anabolic-...rst-cycle.html, no need to overthink it.

**Ernst** · 07-07-2018, 01:16 PM

Test E alone for a first cycle I would go at least 350mg/wk. Personal experience talking. I do go lower if stacking, though.

Half life of Armoasin is about 2 days. I know I've seen people run it the way you have and be happy with it but I'd go eod, drop dose to compensate.

PCT 2 weeks from last pin. HCG and AI run up to pct. You can just include that 250iu of hcg in your test shots if you like, that dosing schedule should be fine, though I find it more convenient to shoot thin stuff like that sub q with a slin pin. I personally dislike hcg because it gave me crap depression sides and therefore would suggest running it later into the cycle if you're going to try it, though this is not the common wisdom.

Nolva: 40/20/20/20 Clomid: 100/50/50/50

**Arcânn** · 07-07-2018, 04:44 PM

Thanks for the replies! Sounds like sensible advice. Just wanted to make sure I wasn't making any horrible rookie mistakes that I would need a smack in the head for

**cousinmuscles** · 07-07-2018, 05:04 PM

Originally Posted by Arcânn

Hey guys,

I'm fairly confident in my first cycle plan and I've had it looked at on another forum, but I don't particularly trust that forum because it appeared to me that they were pushing specific products that sponsored that site. I won't say who since I'm not trying to bash anyone, but the moderators were heavily pushing HCGenerate and no one apart from them seems to have ever gotten anything from that. I just need a second opinion from you guys. And sorry for the long post, but I've got some very specific questions that need to be addressed if I'm going to do this right.

First off, here are my stats:

28 years old
6’2”
212 lbs
~12-13% BF

I’ve been working out for around 5 years. When I first started working out seriously at 23 years old my stats were:

6’2”
145-150 lbs
~7% BF

Here’s my plan for my first cycle:

• Test E – 300 mg/wk for 12 weeks. Start PCT 4-5 weeks after last pin.
• Arimidex starting at 0.5 mg E3D and work my way up depending on blood work and how I feel.
• HCG – I’m having a little difficulty figuring out a good way to dose this, but for 300 mg/wk test, I’m thinking 250iu’s every 4-5 days while on cycle is a good place to start? I’ll definitely need some guidance on HCG though.
• PCT – Nolvadex and Clomid for 4 weeks. Nolva: 40/20/20/20 (mg/day) – Clomid 50/50/25/25

I’m wanting to use 300mg instead of the traditional 500mg for a first cycle because towards the end of my research on this, I came across some information about people having more manageable sides (especially while on other compounds) when they lowered their test and increased whatever they were using. So I decided to look further into this and it seems to be across the board that when people use no more than 300mg, they have much better cycles. Obviously, I’ll have to figure it out for myself in future cycles, but I have a feeling it’ll be a better idea for me to use a relatively low dose of test while on other compounds, and I see no reason why I can’t make some reasonable gains on 300mg. I figure it’s best to start small and work my way up anyway.

I’m choosing arimidex for my AI because there seems to be less of a risk of crashing your estro than with aromasin . Although adex appears to be worse for cholesterol. Aromasin seems to be something that should only be used if you REALLY know what you’re doing. The only other AI I’ve seen is femara and that also appears to be something only a more experienced person should use, as it seems that can also get your estro dangerously low on a very small dose. Some people say an AI is optional or should only be used when you start getting estro sides, but that seems silly to me. Shouldn’t I prevent the rise in estro at least to some degree, from the beginning?

I plan on using HCG throughout the cycle until I start PCT. Is using it during PCT a good idea if I used it on cycle? I know a lot of people either use it during cycle or during PCT, but I haven’t come across anyone I can remember who does both. And I’ve seen people’s dosing of HCG vary so wildly from person to person that it’s hard for me to even guess at where to start, although bloodwork should help me adjust the dose.

As far as I’ve been able to tell, nolva and clomid are the only real PCTs out there. I looked for more but didn’t find much info on anything and what little I did find basically said anything else was BS. I know some people only use one or the other, especially on low doses of test. From what I understand, it’s only necessary to use one for this situation, but I figure both can’t hurt. Is doing both overkill for 300mg? I figure shutdown is shutdown, and needs to be responded to accordingly. Also, the doses I had planned were from when I originally planned on doing 500mg, but at the moment, I see no reason to adjust the doses. Correct me if I’m wrong.

I plan on getting bloodwork done a few weeks before cycle, during cycle, and after PCT. While on cycle, is there a certain time that’s best for getting bloods done? I was thinking every 3-4 weeks during cycle and PCT and then maybe a month or two after PCT just to make sure everything’s normalizing, then again before my next cycle. Also, what’s a good time for bloods in terms of making sure gear is legit? I’ve heard 2 weeks and 4 weeks. On test E, I feel like 3-4 weeks into the cycle is probably best?

Also, I know that when doing bloods, it’s important to check for test levels, estro levels, cholesterol, liver enzymes (although I doubt that’s much of an issue for a test only cycle), and red blood cell count. Is there anything else I’m leaving out that also needs to be monitored?

As far as estro, when using an AI, is there a certain level or number of estro I need to maintain, or is it more of a ratio between test/estro that I need to have?

I’ve heard that bridging cycles with SARMs is a good idea but I’ve heard very mixed things about that so before doing anymore research on that, I wanted to ask you guys about your personal experience and if it’s generally a good idea or if it’s all BS. It appears that the two big ones people use are Ostarine and S-4. I didn’t know if there was a general one that’s needed as a base in the same way that test is generally needed as a base for cycles? I just want general info about that though. I’ll look into the specifics of SARMs myself if I decide it’s a good idea.

And is there anything major I’ve left out of this?

I’m sorry for the ridiculously long post but I figured I needed to give as much detail about my knowledge as I can so that there’s more to correct me on if I’m wrong. I’m not trying to go into this recklessly. If I’m being an idiot, tell me, since I know a lot of noobs come into this with completely the wrong idea of how it all works.

You've got things mixed up with aromasin and arimidex. Aromasin (exemestane) has a rate limiting effect on estrogen suppression. You literally can't crash your estrogen even when not on cycle with aromasin. Aromasin is very fast acting, it has a terminal half life of ~9h. https://academic.oup.com/jcem/articl...2/5951/2661508

There's a good thread on aromasin: https://forums.steroid.com/anabolic-...rdosed-ai.html

Personally no sides from HCG as Ernst mentions. HCG is important for maintaining testicular function. If they have been shut down for a whole cycle, they will need time to build up in size and go back to full production speed, so to speak. So your PCT meds will work more effectively once you get there. 250iu twice per week is enough for this purpose.

**OdinsOtherSon** · 07-07-2018, 05:16 PM

Originally Posted by cousinmuscles

You've got things mixed up with aromasin and arimidex . Aromasin (exemestane) has a rate limiting effect on estrogen suppression. You literally can't crash your estrogen even when not on cycle with aromasin. Aromasin is very fast acting, it has a terminal half life of ~9h. https://academic.oup.com/jcem/articl...2/5951/2661508

There's a good thread on aromasin: https://forums.steroid.com/anabolic-...rdosed-ai.html

Personally no sides from HCG as Ernst mentions. HCG is important for maintaining testicular function. If they have been shut down for a whole cycle, they will need time to build up in size and go back to full production speed, so to speak. So your PCT meds will work more effectively once you get there. 250iu twice per week is enough for this purpose.

Mmmmmmmm.... not sure that’s 100% accurate regarding the aromasin. While it’s true that it’s much more forgiving than adex, it is, in fact, possible to crush your e2 with it. Done it. I use aromasin as a part of my trt and have bw to prove it. 100mg/week cyp & 25mg a day of aromasin took my e2 level to 6pg/mL in a six week period. Am I an anomaly? Don’t know, but I do know aromasin has the potential to bottom out your e2, at least for some.

**cousinmuscles** · 07-07-2018, 05:38 PM

Originally Posted by OdinsOtherSon

Mmmmmmmm.... not sure that’s 100% accurate regarding the aromasin. While it’s true that it’s much more forgiving than adex, it is, in fact, possible to crush your e2 with it. Done it. I use aromasin as a part of my trt and have bw to prove it. 100mg/week cyp & 25mg a day of aromasin took my e2 level to 6pg/mL in a six week period. Am I an anomaly? Don’t know, but I do know aromasin has the potential to bottom out your e2, at least for some.

Actually this seems correct. The studies done on men with normal test levels didn't use it that long. Of course after a while estrogen gets lower, the longer the drug gets to do it's work. I don't think you are an anomaly, it actually sounds normal, 100mg test per week and close to max effective dosage of aromasin should eventually do something lol

**OdinsOtherSon** · 07-07-2018, 05:43 PM

Originally Posted by cousinmuscles

Actually this seems correct. The studies done on men with normal test levels didn't use it that long. Of course after a while estrogen gets lower, the longer the drug gets to do it's work. I don't think you are an anomaly, it actually sounds normal, 100mg test per week and close to max effective dosage of aromasin should eventually do something lol

You make a good point here...the way we use aromasin within our community, is not exactly an accurate comparison to the studies out there. Very good point!

**cousinmuscles** · 07-07-2018, 05:47 PM

Originally Posted by Arcânn

Hey guys,

I'm fairly confident in my first cycle plan and I've had it looked at on another forum, but I don't particularly trust that forum because it appeared to me that they were pushing specific products that sponsored that site. I won't say who since I'm not trying to bash anyone, but the moderators were heavily pushing HCGenerate and no one apart from them seems to have ever gotten anything from that. I just need a second opinion from you guys. And sorry for the long post, but I've got some very specific questions that need to be addressed if I'm going to do this right.

First off, here are my stats:

28 years old
6’2”
212 lbs
~12-13% BF

I’ve been working out for around 5 years. When I first started working out seriously at 23 years old my stats were:

6’2”
145-150 lbs
~7% BF

Here’s my plan for my first cycle:

• Test E – 300 mg/wk for 12 weeks. Start PCT 4-5 weeks after last pin.
• Arimidex starting at 0.5 mg E3D and work my way up depending on blood work and how I feel.
• HCG – I’m having a little difficulty figuring out a good way to dose this, but for 300 mg/wk test, I’m thinking 250iu’s every 4-5 days while on cycle is a good place to start? I’ll definitely need some guidance on HCG though.
• PCT – Nolvadex and Clomid for 4 weeks. Nolva: 40/20/20/20 (mg/day) – Clomid 50/50/25/25

I’m wanting to use 300mg instead of the traditional 500mg for a first cycle because towards the end of my research on this, I came across some information about people having more manageable sides (especially while on other compounds) when they lowered their test and increased whatever they were using. So I decided to look further into this and it seems to be across the board that when people use no more than 300mg, they have much better cycles. Obviously, I’ll have to figure it out for myself in future cycles, but I have a feeling it’ll be a better idea for me to use a relatively low dose of test while on other compounds, and I see no reason why I can’t make some reasonable gains on 300mg. I figure it’s best to start small and work my way up anyway.

I’m choosing arimidex for my AI because there seems to be less of a risk of crashing your estro than with aromasin . Although adex appears to be worse for cholesterol. Aromasin seems to be something that should only be used if you REALLY know what you’re doing. The only other AI I’ve seen is femara and that also appears to be something only a more experienced person should use, as it seems that can also get your estro dangerously low on a very small dose. Some people say an AI is optional or should only be used when you start getting estro sides, but that seems silly to me. Shouldn’t I prevent the rise in estro at least to some degree, from the beginning?

I plan on using HCG throughout the cycle until I start PCT. Is using it during PCT a good idea if I used it on cycle? I know a lot of people either use it during cycle or during PCT, but I haven’t come across anyone I can remember who does both. And I’ve seen people’s dosing of HCG vary so wildly from person to person that it’s hard for me to even guess at where to start, although bloodwork should help me adjust the dose.

As far as I’ve been able to tell, nolva and clomid are the only real PCTs out there. I looked for more but didn’t find much info on anything and what little I did find basically said anything else was BS. I know some people only use one or the other, especially on low doses of test. From what I understand, it’s only necessary to use one for this situation, but I figure both can’t hurt. Is doing both overkill for 300mg? I figure shutdown is shutdown, and needs to be responded to accordingly. Also, the doses I had planned were from when I originally planned on doing 500mg, but at the moment, I see no reason to adjust the doses. Correct me if I’m wrong.

I plan on getting bloodwork done a few weeks before cycle, during cycle, and after PCT. While on cycle, is there a certain time that’s best for getting bloods done? I was thinking every 3-4 weeks during cycle and PCT and then maybe a month or two after PCT just to make sure everything’s normalizing, then again before my next cycle. Also, what’s a good time for bloods in terms of making sure gear is legit? I’ve heard 2 weeks and 4 weeks. On test E, I feel like 3-4 weeks into the cycle is probably best?

Also, I know that when doing bloods, it’s important to check for test levels, estro levels, cholesterol, liver enzymes (although I doubt that’s much of an issue for a test only cycle), and red blood cell count. Is there anything else I’m leaving out that also needs to be monitored?

As far as estro, when using an AI, is there a certain level or number of estro I need to maintain, or is it more of a ratio between test/estro that I need to have?

I’ve heard that bridging cycles with SARMs is a good idea but I’ve heard very mixed things about that so before doing anymore research on that, I wanted to ask you guys about your personal experience and if it’s generally a good idea or if it’s all BS. It appears that the two big ones people use are Ostarine and S-4. I didn’t know if there was a general one that’s needed as a base in the same way that test is generally needed as a base for cycles? I just want general info about that though. I’ll look into the specifics of SARMs myself if I decide it’s a good idea.

And is there anything major I’ve left out of this?

I’m sorry for the ridiculously long post but I figured I needed to give as much detail about my knowledge as I can so that there’s more to correct me on if I’m wrong. I’m not trying to go into this recklessly. If I’m being an idiot, tell me, since I know a lot of noobs come into this with completely the wrong idea of how it all works.

Regarding shutdown, yes shutdown is shutdown and you will bottom out your LH and FSH (the hormones produced by your brain which signal testicles to produce testosterone ) equally with 25mg test per week as with 600mg, there are studies that have done such experiments (https://www.physiology.org/doi/pdf/1...01.281.6.E1172 check table 2). What seems to matter most for recovery is how long you have been shut down. So do a regular PCT.

Regarding bloods: pre cycle doesn't matter as long as it's precycle. Mid cycle around halfway through. Post PCT at least 6 weeks after the last day you used a PCT med. They have a long half life and will give you a false (too high) reading long after the last administration. Clomid needs 6 weeks to completely get out of your system so I'd even say 8 weeks to see where you are at naturally, with no meds affecting the results.

Here's a snippet from the sticky re: blood panels you should order and when:

Originally Posted by austinite

Lastly, the most important part is your blood work. Steroids will wreak havoc on your blood levels. So you need to have panels ordered before, during and after your cycle. This will identify many things so that you can succeed and maintain a good state of health.

Blood work you need (at minimum):

1. Testosterone, Total
2. Testosterone, Free
3. Sensitive E2 Assay (Not basic estradiol, that's for women)
4. CBC (Compete blood count)
5. CMP (Comprehensive metabolic panel)
6. Lipid Profile (post cycle is fine)
7. LH and FSH (pre-cycle and post PCT)

These panels need to be done pre-cycle to ensure that your internals are ready for this ride. Mid-cycle to verify that your estrogen blocker dose is working, your blood isn't too thick, your liver is still safe and that your gear is legitimate and not fake or underdosed. Post cycle so that you can verify that you've completed your cycle safely and no issues need attention.

Here is your blood work timing:

Pre-Cycle blood work: 2 weeks prior to cycle.
Mid-Cycle blood work: 7 to 8 weeks into a 12 week cycle. Or 5 weeks into an 8 weeker.
Post-Cycle blood work: 6 weeks after PCT.

Thickening of the blood is very dangerous and steroids will thicken your blood. The increased RBC production will result in higher hematocrit levels. This number comes back with your CBC panel. It is best to keep this close to 50%. Once it reaches 55% or higher, you're at risk of a blood clot, extreme fatigue, high blood pressure, headaches and a host of other concerns. To resolve this issue, you'll need to donate blood. This will lower your hematocrit levels. Be very cautious, because if your level reach 55%, most donation centers will reject/refuse a donation from you. Then you'll have to get a prescription from a doctor for a therapeutic phlebotomy. This is why mid-cycle blood work is important.

**Arcânn** · 07-07-2018, 06:16 PM

All great information! I've read most of the thread you sent me about aromasin , cousin, but I still plan on doing some more reading in other places just to get a general feel on that particular subject. Right now I'm settling on 350mg/week Test E. For a first cycle, I'm just not comfortable jumping up to 500mg since I'm worried I might be one of those that's secretly prone to acne. And I highly doubt gyno would ever be an issue for me, especially with an AI, but you never know until you're there. For now, I'm thinking 25mg/day aromasin might be a good starting point for 350mg/day Test.

Odin, I have a question (I'm sure the rest of you can clarify as well though). You said your BW came back one time with your e2 at 6pg/ml. I've been trying to research normal ranges as I read all this, so correct me if I'm wrong, but normal e2 range in men is 15-60pg/ml? And does that mean you always want to keep it in that range, no matter how high your test gets? I just want to make sure it needs to stay in a certain range, and not necesarily at a certain "ratio" or something, as that would sound very tricky.

**OdinsOtherSon** · 07-07-2018, 07:13 PM

Originally Posted by Arcânn

All great information! I've read most of the thread you sent me about aromasin , cousin, but I still plan on doing some more reading in other places just to get a general feel on that particular subject. Right now I'm settling on 350mg/week Test E. For a first cycle, I'm just not comfortable jumping up to 500mg since I'm worried I might be one of those that's secretly prone to acne. And I highly doubt gyno would ever be an issue for me, especially with an AI, but you never know until you're there. For now, I'm thinking 25mg/day aromasin might be a good starting point for 350mg/day Test.

Odin, I have a question (I'm sure the rest of you can clarify as well though). You said your BW came back one time with your e2 at 6pg/ml. I've been trying to research normal ranges as I read all this, so correct me if I'm wrong, but normal e2 range in men is 15-60pg/ml? And does that mean you always want to keep it in that range, no matter how high your test gets? I just want to make sure it needs to stay in a certain range, and not necesarily at a certain "ratio" or something, as that would sound very tricky.

Different labs will have different ranges for every parameter you monitor, e2 included. Even the volume they use to report results has changed with my lab. Now, instead of pg/mL they are giving results in ng/dL. The range you quoted seems a tad extreme (just my opinion) but then again, some men feel and function better with lower than “normal” e2, some higher. Gents, please correct me if I’m wrong....your e2 will increase as your test levels increase even with the administration of an AI. With 350mg test, probably not by much and in fact you should be able to maintain a “normal” range. FWIW: I’m blasting right now, 500mg week, and using 25mg aromasin eod. My e2 is being controlled nicely with those doses.

**Arcânn** · 07-07-2018, 07:35 PM

Originally Posted by OdinsOtherSon

Different labs will have different ranges for every parameter you monitor, e2 included. Even the volume they use to report results has changed with my lab. Now, instead of pg/mL they are giving results in ng/dL. The range you quoted seems a tad extreme (just my opinion) but then again, some men feel and function better with lower than “normal” e2, some higher. Gents, please correct me if I’m wrong....your e2 will increase as your test levels increase even with the administration of an AI. With 350mg test, probably not by much and in fact you should be able to maintain a “normal” range. FWIW: I’m blasting right now, 500mg week, and using 25mg aromasin eod. My e2 is being controlled nicely with those doses.

What would you say is probably a normal range for e2?