Why bother running Test

[GearHeaded]

this question is for you guys that are Estrogen sensitive and can't even run a moderate dosed cycle of Test without having to run a bunch of AI along with it.

why do you even bother running it in the first place ? I'm talking at cycle dosages, not talking about running it at TRT and replacement dosages just to give your body what it needs (100-200mg per week). so NO I'm not talking about NOT running test at all, I'm talking about "why bother running test as your cycles main compound".

IF Dorritos chips give you heart burn, then why not chose a different chip to eat.

I've got sitting here in front of me a 700 page book on steroids. it goes through the profiles of 100s of steroids.
the majority of them do NOT convert to Estrogen at a high rate like Test does. so you have plenty of options.

really only Dbol and Test, as popular main stream steroids, convert heavily to estrogen.

so again, if your estrogen sensitive and you have to take other drugs to keep your estrogen levels down. why are you purposely taking a drug where one of its main benefits and actions is to convert to estrogen !
pick another compound, there are 100s of them.
you don't NEED cycle dosages of test. run 100mg to replace natural levels and thats it. then run cycles with AAS that don't convert into something thats a problem for you.


the whole reason Test and Dbol work well is because they convert to estrogen (which is extremely anabolic and growth orientated). I just don't see the purpose of taking either one of these then having to take another drug to block the main benefits of the drug your originally taking.

its like ordering a double cheeseburger, with the sole purpose of eating only the cheese. wtf is that.




note: personally, I'm a fan of TEST. I'll run up to 2 grams a week. I'm not estrogen sensitive and don't require an AI. If I was, then it wouldn't make much sense to do that if I have to take other drugs that greatly diminish the main benefits of test in the first place.

to put it in perspective.. I will purposely add Dbol or Test into a cycle for the sole purpose of getting Estrogen conversion. my cycles generally always have an estrogenic phase.
so you can see why I would ask why some of you purposely run Estrogenic compounds just to take another drug to limit that effect.

[GearHeaded]

heres an example
Test has a rating of 100 to 100.
Var has a rating of 25 to 300-600

Var is a quarter as androgenic as test yet its 3-6 times as anabolic. so on paper Var should build muscle better then Test.
but most guys will find that Test builds muscle faster then Var . Why ?
because whats missing on paper here, is the fact that Test heavily converts to estrogen. Var does not. This gives Test a big muscle building edge over Var even though Var is 3-6 times as anabolic. the estrogen aspect of Test is whats giving Test a lot of its muscle building power.

now it would be a bad idea, imo, if growth was your main goal ,, to go ahead and take that ability away from Test. and make Test no longer convert to estrogen. it would no longer have that edge over Var.
Test with a high dose of an AI is much much weaker then Var.

if your going to diminish one of the main benefits of test, ie, its estrogen conversion, then you might as well just switch to a compound that doesn't convert in the first place and has better anabolic rating like Var


its like having Superman on your side, yet when he joins your side you take away his super strength and his ability to fly. why the fuck did you want superman on your side then. just to castrate him, you might as well of just picked Batman

[Obs]

I hate superman.

Loved watching batman beat his ass.

[Obs]

I like test though I shoot a bunch

[charger69]

heres an example
Test has a rating of 100 to 100.
Var has a rating of 25 to 300-600

Var is a quarter as androgenic as test yet its 3-6 times as anabolic. so on paper Var should build muscle better then Test.
but most guys will find that Test builds muscle faster then Var . Why ?
because whats missing on paper here, is the fact that Test heavily converts to estrogen. Var does not. This gives Test a big muscle building edge over Var even though Var is 3-6 times as anabolic. the estrogen aspect of Test is whats giving Test a lot of its muscle building power.

now it would be a bad idea, imo, if growth was your main goal ,, to go ahead and take that ability away from Test. and make Test no longer convert to estrogen. it would no longer have that edge over Var.
Test with a high dose of an AI is much much weaker then Var.

if your going to diminish one of the main benefits of test, ie, its estrogen conversion, then you might as well just switch to a compound that doesn't convert in the first place and has better anabolic rating like Var


its like having Superman on your side, yet when he joins your side you take away his super strength and his ability to fly. why the fuck did you want superman on your side then. just to castrate him, you might as well of just picked Batman

Hey, what’s wrong with Batman???


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[kelkel]

I can't get past the cheeseburger comment. I love cheeseburgers.


But as always, there's a method to GH's madness!

[GearHeaded]

Hey, what’s wrong with Batman???

hey I'm a batman fan too though.

[Obs]

hey I'm a batman fan too though.

4:14 ending of the fight.
This cartoon is where the idea for the movie came from.
But... Batman was old, grey haired, scarred up and sick of shit. Love his words to superman before he has a heart attack.
"I want you to remember the man that beat you."

Few episodes before he killed joker. Having kids we all watched this and the avengers cartoons.
I waited years for the movie to come out. Actually pissed me off I had to wait four years.

Hulk is still the king though.

[GearHeaded]

hey I'm a batman fan too though.

if you guys couldn't tell, thats a batman shirt I'm wearing.

[diesel101]

Deadpool all the way

[Family_guy]

this question is for you guys that are Estrogen sensitive and can't even run a moderate dosed cycle of Test without having to run a bunch of AI along with it.

why do you even bother running it in the first place ? I'm talking at cycle dosages, not talking about running it at TRT and replacement dosages just to give your body what it needs (100-200mg per week). so NO I'm not talking about NOT running test at all, I'm talking about "why bother running test as your cycles main compound".

IF Dorritos chips give you heart burn, then why not chose a different chip to eat.

I've got sitting here in front of me a 700 page book on steroids. it goes through the profiles of 100s of steroids.
the majority of them do NOT convert to Estrogen at a high rate like Test does. so you have plenty of options.

really only Dbol and Test, as popular main stream steroids, convert heavily to estrogen.

so again, if your estrogen sensitive and you have to take other drugs to keep your estrogen levels down. why are you purposely taking a drug where one of its main benefits and actions is to convert to estrogen !
pick another compound, there are 100s of them.
you don't NEED cycle dosages of test. run 100mg to replace natural levels and thats it. then run cycles with AAS that don't convert into something thats a problem for you.


the whole reason Test and Dbol work well is because they convert to estrogen (which is extremely anabolic and growth orientated). I just don't see the purpose of taking either one of these then having to take another drug to block the main benefits of the drug your originally taking.

its like ordering a double cheeseburger, with the sole purpose of eating only the cheese. wtf is that.




note: personally, I'm a fan of TEST. I'll run up to 2 grams a week. I'm not estrogen sensitive and don't require an AI. If I was, then it wouldn't make much sense to do that if I have to take other drugs that greatly diminish the main benefits of test in the first place.

to put it in perspective.. I will purposely add Dbol or Test into a cycle for the sole purpose of getting Estrogen conversion. my cycles generally always have an estrogenic phase.
so you can see why I would ask why some of you purposely run Estrogenic compounds just to take another drug to limit that effect.

So does that mean that you wouldn’t recommend running an AI at all unless you had high estrogen symptoms?

[Family_guy]

I’ve read both you and obs say that you don’t use an ai. That seems to against the “conventional wisdom” for planning a cycle. This is very interesting to me

[Obs]

Thankful for couch, who told me to get my ass up early and go to the gym.
Calm before the storm.

Posted this in the wrong damn thread but its 5 am so wtf ever.

[HoldMyBeer]

I hate superman.

Loved watching batman beat his ass.

Those cartoons where the shit though when we were kids!
Batman, Superman, xmen, spiderman....
Now they have pussified versions

Sent from my LG-LS993 using Tapatalk

[HoldMyBeer]

4:14 ending of the fight.
This cartoon is where the idea for the movie came from.
But... Batman was old, grey haired, scarred up and sick of shit. Love his words to superman before he has a heart attack.
"I want you to remember the man that beat you."

Few episodes before he killed joker. Having kids we all watched this and the avengers cartoons.
I waited years for the movie to come out. Actually pissed me off I had to wait four years.

Hulk is still the king though.

Avengers: Earth's mightiest heros
Great cartoon. Only lasted two seasons or so

Sent from my LG-LS993 using Tapatalk

[< <Samson> >]

Kinda where I'm at - running low test & finding other shit to pile on that doesn't mess with my estro/gyno

[Octaneforce]

I would go out on a limb and say that *most* dudes handle high estro well. Which is why the consesus with old school guys is test only as a first cycle with no ai. But then you get estro sensitive guys who join here and want to know why they grew tits and cried during finding nemo 2. Which is totally fine we are here to help each other! But everyones different.

Gh ur right, instead if eating arimidex we should be telling the estro sensitive to lower the test dose and add in something like eq. Im still rooting for fast ester boldenone like we talked about! It would be a game changer.

Another thought, high test only cycles are probably common because its so simple. Its not easy for a newbie to start using multible oils and dosing twice as many compounds. We take for granted how much we educate each other on this board. Not everyone started with such a good community of assistance.

[Testlolblast]

Thank you for the post, GearHeaded! Good advice that should be taken in a consideration by anyone having estrogen & gyno issues on an usual testosterone cycle. I think I should take it in the consideration, too.
The only probe that I'm quite sensitive also to the strong androgenic compounds. Man, I love proviron that is not as androgenic as tren or mast. Can you advise any only - proviron cycle that should work well to reach my goals. The goals are: the noticeable strength increase and the lean muscle mass, better in the long term. Don't wanna sound stupid asking about the cycle consisting only of proviron, but other orals are taboo for me because I've had to deal with situations of increased liver enzymes. Furthermore I've ran proviron 1 tablet a day for 5 months and I would say that was great! Just wanna even more increase in strength, become more athletic in a safer way so I should better cycle it?

[GearHeaded]

So does that mean that you wouldn’t recommend running an AI at all unless you had high estrogen symptoms?

I’ve read both you and obs say that you don’t use an ai. That seems to against the “conventional wisdom” for planning a cycle. This is very interesting to me

I'm not against running AI's, it just depends on the situation. heres a few points

- if your overall goal of your cycle is trying to put on muscle mass, then stay away from AI's. IF you need estrogen control your going to get better results and gains by running a SERM like nolva as your anti estrogen (as it will just block negative E side effects at the receptor site itself, and it will NOT lower overall serum levels of E , thus allowing the benefits and gains that come with elevated E).
Nolva basically blocks the negative effects of Estrogen but keeps the positive effects , sort of speak.

- if your super sensitive to estrogen and aromatize like crazy and have to run an AI with only 500mg of test. then your likely a guy that doesn't have the genetics to get jacked and huge. thats fine (non estrogen sensitive guys have more potential for growth as estrogen is very anabolic).. if your having to run an AI with every test cycle you do , then just scratch running test as your main compound . like my original post suggests. find other compounds that do NOT aromatize into estrogen and run them so you don't have to keep messing with AI's that come with their own host of negative sides. again there is no point in running a strong aromatizing compound just to block the aormatization of it.
just like theres no point in ordering an entire cheeseburger just cause your in the mood for a slice of cheese (you can by sliced cheese)

- IF your in contest prep and need to get as dry and grainy as possible, and your not in a position where your trying to put on muscle cause your in a deficit and shedding body fat . THEN running an AI can be beneficial here.
again your not trying to build muscle, so your not needing the anabolic benefits of estrogen and your not wanting the anabolic benefits that come from holding water. your just trying to get dry. an AI can help with this (though your going to feel pretty shitty mentally).

- IF your on TRT and its doctor supervised and maintaining estrogen levels in the 'normal range' is a goal of yours and your doc, then by all means run an AI.

- one thing I recommend never doing .. running an AI from day one of your cycle. no faster way to F yourself up and limit your potential gains on cycle then doing that. Estrogen is responsible for sensitizing androgen receptors. we don't want to kill estrogen while we are trying to up-regulate androgens. we don't want estrogen to plummet as androgens elevate. thats a hormonal mess.



so again. I'm not saying do NOT use an AI at all . I'm saying don't run an AI just for the hell of it cause thats what you read your supposed to do from the internet or a drug dealer (that sells AI's that are more expensive to run then the gear itself).
I'm saying address your situation and run an AI in the right circumstances when absolutely needed.

note: there are more advanced reasons for running an AI that I leave out here, as its not quite relevant here. but you can see those in my advanced AAS use thread for using AI's for anti estrogen and anti cortisol phases.

[GearHeaded]

Thank you for the post, GearHeaded! Good advice that should be taken in a consideration by anyone having estrogen & gyno issues on an usual testosterone cycle. I think I should take it in the consideration, too.
The only probe that I'm quite sensitive also to the strong androgenic compounds. Man, I love proviron that is not as androgenic as tren or mast. Can you advise any only - proviron cycle that should work well to reach my goals. The goals are: the noticeable strength increase and the lean muscle mass, better in the long term. Don't wanna sound stupid asking about the cycle consisting only of proviron, but other orals are taboo for me because I've had to deal with situations of increased liver enzymes. Furthermore I've ran proviron 1 tablet a day for 5 months and I would say that was great! Just wanna even more increase in strength, become more athletic in a safer way so I should better cycle it?

IF you are sensitive to androgens then your best bet is going to be running strong anabolic compounds (ie, drugs that have a strong anabolic rating and a low androgenic rating). drugs like deca or npp are perfect. they are very strong anabolics but have very little androgenic activity, and they do not convert to DHT like test does (which is super androgenic), then convert to DHN which is very weak in regards to androgen activity. this is one reason why Deca/Npp works very well with women.
if you want to stay away from nandrolone though because of possible prolactin sensitivity,, then go for other drugs that are more 'anabolics', like Var, EQ, Primobolan, Superdrol, etc.
just stack these with a very very small amount of test and you shouldn't have a whole lot of androgenic sides.

you may also want to consider SARMS as they have very little androgenic activity as well.

Proviron is another drug that is rated much higher as an anabolic but very weak as androgenic. however, proviron illicits most of its anabolic activity by allowing other compounds to work better (essentially displacing whats bound to SHBG and freeing that up into the blood stream).
so you wouldn't get a whole lot of muscle building from running Proviron by itself. however, adding it into a stack of other compounds is beneficial .
but keep in mind running proviron with test can indirectly bring about androgenic side effects, as the proviron may free up more test to be converted into DHT


running Proviron with a Deca only cycle . hmmm, that may be pretty interesting

[Testlolblast]

IF you are sensitive to androgens then your best bet is going to be running strong anabolic compounds (ie, drugs that have a strong anabolic rating and a low androgenic rating). drugs like deca or npp are perfect. they are very strong anabolics but have very little androgenic activity, and they do not convert to DHT like test does (which is super androgenic), then convert to DHN which is very weak in regards to androgen activity. this is one reason why Deca/Npp works very well with women.
if you want to stay away from nandrolone though because of possible prolactin sensitivity,, then go for other drugs that are more 'anabolics', like Var, EQ, Primobolan, Superdrol, etc.
just stack these with a very very small amount of test and you shouldn't have a whole lot of androgenic sides.

you may also want to consider SARMS as they have very little androgenic activity as well.

Proviron is another drug that is rated much higher as an anabolic but very weak as androgenic. however, proviron illicits most of its anabolic activity by allowing other compounds to work better (essentially displacing whats bound to SHBG and freeing that up into the blood stream).
so you wouldn't get a whole lot of muscle building from running Proviron by itself. however, adding it into a stack of other compounds is beneficial .
but keep in mind running proviron with test can indirectly bring about androgenic side effects, as the proviron may free up more test to be converted into DHT


running Proviron with a Deca only cycle . hmmm, that may be pretty interesting

Ohh, lots of thanks! GearHeaded, could you please pm me (proviron, domestic, better)?

[< <Samson> >]

My last gyno flare started when I jumped on Proviron. . . .But, it'd go away as soon as stopped taking it

[Arcânn]

I hate superman.

Loved watching batman beat his ass.

If you've never seen The Dark Knight Returns Part 2, you'll love that ass beating Batman give Superman even more. It's animated, but it's way better than the Batman v Superman movie

[Arcânn]

If you've never seen The Dark Knight Returns Part 2, you'll love that ass beating Batman give Superman even more. It's animated, but it's way better than the Batman v Superman movie

Nevermind, didn't see the post where you posted the fight haha

[Arcânn]

Side note: Never cycled yet and I still cry anytime I watch any one of like...6 different scenes from The Lion King. Should I just go ahead and throw the AI in there?

[Old Duffer]

Nope! Cosmo says women like sensitive guys

[Octaneforce]

Side note: Never cycled yet and I still cry anytime I watch any one of like...6 different scenes from The Lion King. Should I just go ahead and throw the AI in there?

Dont take an ai lol. But go do some bloodwork and baseline yourself if you really never cycled! Most of us missed that train

[Testlolblast]

GearHeaded, I don't wanna get too muscular just want to increase the strength my muscles should produce it is I would like to get more impressive as a powerlifter not a bodybuilder in the long term.
For example I remember when I was on proviron my max bench was 145 kg on 78 kg bodyweight and even year or two later could deadlift 245 kg x 10 x3 without roids.

[GearHeaded]

Side note: Never cycled yet and I still cry anytime I watch any one of like...6 different scenes from The Lion King. Should I just go ahead and throw the AI in there?

if your on cycle, and your estrogen goes up, thats fine AS LONG AS your androgens have gone up to supra physiological dosages as well.

If you've never done a cycle and had super elevated androgen levels, instead of crying over the Lion King movie with high androgen levels, you'll likely get pissed that the creators of that movie even dared to use the word "king" cause you know your the only F'ing King on the planet. you'll get pissed, pick your 80" TV up, smash it over your head, and make your way to your local zoo to show the Lion who the F is really King around here.

^ point being. you don't want to offset the so called 'emotional drama' that comes with estrogen by lowering your estrogen, you want to offset it by raising your androgens.

[GearHeaded]

My last gyno flare started when I jumped on Proviron. . . .But, it'd go away as soon as stopped taking it

my guess would be that when you took the proviron you were probably not taking Nolva, and only taking a small dose of an AI . when the Proviorn kicked in it displaced a lot of bound up Testosterone from SHBG , and instantly gave your body more Test available to convert into estrogen, and thus indirectly flared up your gyno.

curious how you would do now running Proviron while on your low dose Nolva protocol

[GearHeaded]

GearHeaded, I don't wanna get too muscular .

Roelly Winklar said the same thing years ago.. and even today when he looks in the mirror he says he feels small

but don't worry Testo, nobody has ever 'accidentally' got themselves too muscular

[Arcânn]

you'll get pissed, pick your 80" TV up, smash it over your head, and make your way to your local zoo to show the Lion who the F is really King around here.

I see nothing wrong with this scenario

[Obs]

Wtf... I thought we were talking shit about superman?

[charger69]

Wtf... I thought we were talking shit about superman?

Poor GH can’t keep on theme. LOL


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[Obs]

Poor GH can’t keep on theme. LOL


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I know.
He is a thread derailing sumbich.

[< <Samson> >]

my guess would be that when you took the proviron you were probably not taking Nolva, and only taking a small dose of an AI . when the Proviorn kicked in it displaced a lot of bound up Testosterone from SHBG , and instantly gave your body more Test available to convert into estrogen, and thus indirectly flared up your gyno.

curious how you would do now running Proviron while on your low dose Nolva protocol

Makes sense, and seems quite spot on


Maybe I'll try it next time after already being on Dex

[GearHeaded]

Wtf... I thought we were talking shit about superman?

maybe 'steroid man' will whip them all

[charger69]

maybe 'steroid man' will whip them all

LMAO- you always have a comeback!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[GearHeaded]

gonna resurrect this thread..

ok so the beauty of Test is that its a perfect balance/ratio between estrogenic and androgenic properties, as well as androgenic/anaboilc .
in the presence of elevated androgens, estrogen becomes very anabolic . in the presence of elevated estrogen, androgens act to counter negative estrogen side effects (a lot of synergy between androgens and estrogen, like for example the fact that estrogen sensitizes androgen receptors)

so why mess with this perfect balance ? when you take Test as your main compound to cycle with, but then you go throwing in a bunch of AI to limit Test from being estrogenic, your counter acting the very thing that test is meant to do and your totally F'ing up this perfect balance/ratio.

if you don't want the estrogen elevation and aromatization that test provides (which is fine I get why some guys don't want this) then WHY are you running Test as the main compound of your cycles in the first place ? why even bother! just run a compound that is more anabolic then test, or more androgenic then test, that does NOT convert to estrogen in the first place.


this is a serious question.. I see guys all the time decide to run a cycle and they just run test again and again and again, yet they always run their AI with it, defeating a lot of the benefit and purpose of test in the first place. why not just run your cycles with another compound that you don't have to keep running these expensive and extra ancillary drugs ?

[KennyJ]

gonna resurrect this thread..

ok so the beauty of Test is that its a perfect balance/ratio between estrogenic and androgenic properties, as well as androgenic/anaboilc .
in the presence of elevated androgens, estrogen becomes very anabolic . in the presence of elevated estrogen, androgens act to counter negative estrogen side effects (a lot of synergy between androgens and estrogen, like for example the fact that estrogen sensitizes androgen receptors)

so why mess with this perfect balance ? when you take Test as your main compound to cycle with, but then you go throwing in a bunch of AI to limit Test from being estrogenic, your counter acting the very thing that test is meant to do and your totally F'ing up this perfect balance/ratio.

if you don't want the estrogen elevation and aromatization that test provides (which is fine I get why some guys don't want this) then WHY are you running Test as the main compound of your cycles in the first place ? why even bother! just run a compound that is more anabolic then test, or more androgenic then test, that does NOT convert to estrogen in the first place.


this is a serious question.. I see guys all the time decide to run a cycle and they just run test again and again and again, yet they always run their AI with it, defeating a lot of the benefit and purpose of test in the first place. why not just run your cycles with another compound that you don't have to keep running these expensive and extra ancillary drugs ?

I'm glad you keep reminding people of this. As you know before now I only ran a couple of small test cycles with a little dbol on one of them about ten years ago and I didn't touch an AI. I do have some now in case I need it but these higher doses of AI's seem to have developed over the past few years.