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Thread: STOP running estrogenic compounds if you don't want estrogen sides !!!!

  1. #41
    GearHeaded's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Family_guy View Post
    This made me think of something interesting. So to play the devils advocate here don’t you think there are other benefits to these estrogenic compounds like test and Dbol and Ment other than just elevating E? So let’s say I take MENT and an AI(not even sure an AI is applicable cuz I don’t think MENT aromatizes but acts on the estrogen receptor itself?) will the MENT not still have plenty of anabolic effect even without the E?
    well the main thing we are looking to get out of running different compounds is this --
    each different AAS drug out there has its own set of unique genetic codes and will relay its own unique information/dna to cells that it binds to. that transcribed "information" is mainly what we are after.
    even though two different drugs may have similar effects on the body, again each drug is truly unique with its own genetic code its transcribing..

    this is one reason why I promote phase cycling and compound rotation . trying to get as much unique and 'new' muscle building information relayed to muscle cells as often as possible.. that information is the main thing we are after.


    now the indirect and secondary actions of a compound are also important but not as important as the 'code' .

    so yes there are absolutely benefits to be had and realized from estrogenic compounds beside the estrogen factor. the estrogen factor is a secondary action.
    Ment has its own unique code and DNA its transcribing to muscle cells. I take Ment cause first and foremost I want that "secret code"


    now of course we should pay attention to and use compounds based on their secondary actions as well .
    now I'll take Tren , for example, for the "code" its providing to cells . but it also has some cool secondary actions. like being a progestin based compound it interacts with progestin receptors , which in turn makes you more sensitive to estrogen , which in turn sensitizes your liver to estrogen, which in turn then begins to up regulate hepatic IGF output (estrogen works in the liver to produce IGF) . so while on Tren IGF levels begin to elevate.
    thats a secondary action we should be aware of when we chose to cycle a compound like tren.

    the estrogen aspect of an estrogenic compound is just one aspect of all the different things that compound may do . so its not the only thing I look at when considering a compound or designing a drug stack
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  2. #42
    Mula is offline New Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by GearHeaded View Post
    well the main thing we are looking to get out of running different compounds is this --
    each different AAS drug out there has its own set of unique genetic codes and will relay its own unique information/dna to cells that it binds to. that transcribed "information" is mainly what we are after.
    even though two different drugs may have similar effects on the body, again each drug is truly unique with its own genetic code its transcribing..

    this is one reason why I promote phase cycling and compound rotation . trying to get as much unique and 'new' muscle building information relayed to muscle cells as often as possible.. that information is the main thing we are after.


    now the indirect and secondary actions of a compound are also important but not as important as the 'code' .

    so yes there are absolutely benefits to be had and realized from estrogenic compounds beside the estrogen factor. the estrogen factor is a secondary action.
    Ment has its own unique code and DNA its transcribing to muscle cells. I take Ment cause first and foremost I want that "secret code"


    now of course we should pay attention to and use compounds based on their secondary actions as well .
    now I'll take Tren , for example, for the "code" its providing to cells . but it also has some cool secondary actions. like being a progestin based compound it interacts with progestin receptors , which in turn makes you more sensitive to estrogen , which in turn sensitizes your liver to estrogen, which in turn then begins to up regulate hepatic IGF output (estrogen works in the liver to produce IGF) . so while on Tren IGF levels begin to elevate.
    thats a secondary action we should be aware of when we chose to cycle a compound like tren.

    the estrogen aspect of an estrogenic compound is just one aspect of all the different things that compound may do . so its not the only thing I look at when considering a compound or designing a drug stack
    So what would your ideal beginner cycle look like?

    I have hesitating between combining test-e/anavar or test-e/winstrol as a first blast...

    How would you run them in terms of duration and would you go for a kick-start or rather run them later in the cycle?

    Would you also advice combining test-e/anavar/winstrol together? IF yes, what would the ideal cycle durations be for all compounds?

    I think if we could get an answer on that we could create a new beginner cycle sticky without the AI's involved...
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  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mula View Post
    So what would your ideal beginner cycle look like?

    I have hesitating between combining test-e/anavar or test-e/winstrol as a first blast...

    How would you run them in terms of duration and would you go for a kick-start or rather run them later in the cycle?

    Would you also advice combining test-e/anavar/winstrol together? IF yes, what would the ideal cycle durations be for all compounds?

    I think if we could get an answer on that we could create a new beginner cycle sticky without the AI's involved...

    great question .

    however, this is so much based on individual variables its hard to answer . I have had lots of different clients hire me, and then get on their first cycle and to be honest , every one of their cycles looked different (depending on the persons background, goals, training history, diet and training programing, age, stats .. and wither they were on current HRT or were planning on it).

    so because of this I don't even thing a "beginner cycle sticky" is a good idea to have up at all in the first place . just because there are too many variables to factor in , everyone is different, and there is not one standard protocol that fits everyone.

    I've helped some guys run first cycles that have looked like this

    - Var, Clen , T3 -- (no test no injectables ... "but oral only cycles are a no no , you need test" ,, blah blah blah , BS) .. and guess what, this guy required no AI , there were no estrogen sides . why ? no test and no aromatizing compounds .
    cycle worked great . Var is only minimally suppressive and he had no low T symptoms , and he recovered just fine with no PCT

    - TRT dose of test with Var or Winny (like your considering) . works like a charm. simple and effective. no negative sides, no AI needed, good gains.

    - high dose Primobolan with very low dose Test (like 100mg per week). super clean cycle most guys feel awesome on. quality lean gains slowly over time..
    you could actually do this same cycle, but drop the test out all together, and add a low dose of Dbol in its place

    now on the other end of the spectrum I've helped newbs run their first cycle that were already on TRT . I ended up doing phase cycling with them

    - so one guy on TRT already ,, we upped the Test to 1000mg per week .. added in primo too. then we rotated the primo out and added in Masteron , then at the tail end of the cycle when everything was going great, we ran a little bit of low dose Tren . most people will say not to run tren on a first cycle . well this was phase 3 of his first cycle , so was kinda like his 3rd cycle we just ran it all in a series .

    - another guy on TRT . we just added VAR, Clen, and T3 to his Current TRT . then later we added Dbol and dropped the Var . then later we added Tren at super low dose to check his response to androgens, like 25mg per day . then later we dropped compounds and rotated in deca and anadrol . all worked great .

    I could keep going . but you get the point . a first cycle is very person dependent and variable. of course "test only" is also an option , I just think in most peoples cases its not the most optimal option (and low dose, long ester test, with an AI from day one .. is a very crappy option)
    Last edited by GearHeaded; 09-09-2019 at 05:15 PM.
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  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mula View Post
    So what would your ideal beginner cycle look like?

    I have hesitating between combining test-e/anavar or test-e/winstrol as a first blast...
    ..

    a first cycle of 250mg of test with 50mg per day of Var, for 8 or so weeks , is a plenty effective cycle with great results and little negative side effects and of course no AI to be considered.

    the anabolic load of that cycle is equal to running 2,350 mg per week of test .. that is so so so much more effective and anabolic then a 500mg of test with AI cycle

    note - keep in mind Var is 6x more anabolic then test (and for a lot of people is nearly side effect free)

  5. #45
    Mula is offline New Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by GearHeaded View Post
    great question .

    however, this is so much based on individual variables its hard to answer . I have had lots of different clients hire me, and then get on their first cycle and to be honest , every one of their cycles looked different (depending on the persons background, goals, training history, diet and training programing, age, stats .. and wither they were on current HRT or were planning on it).

    so because of this I don't even thing a "beginner cycle sticky" is a good idea to have up at all in the first place . just because there are too many variables to factor in , everyone is different, and there is not one standard protocol that fits everyone.

    I've helped some guys run first cycles that have looked like this

    - Var, Clen , T3 -- (no test no injectables ... "but oral only cycles are a no no , you need test" ,, blah blah blah , BS) .. and guess what, this guy required no AI , there were no estrogen sides . why ? no test and no aromatizing compounds .
    cycle worked great . Var is only minimally suppressive and he had no low T symptoms , and he recovered just fine with no PCT

    - TRT dose of test with Var or Winny (like your considering) . works like a charm. simple and effective. no negative sides, no AI needed, good gains.

    - high dose Primobolan with very low dose Test (like 100mg per week). super clean cycle most guys feel awesome on. quality lean gains slowly over time..
    you could actually do this same cycle, but drop the test out all together, and add a low dose of Dbol in its place

    now on the other end of the spectrum I've helped newbs run their first cycle that were already on TRT . I ended up doing phase cycling with them

    - so one guy on TRT already ,, we upped the Test to 1000mg per week .. added in primo too. then we rotated the primo out and added in Masteron , then at the tail end of the cycle when everything was going great, we ran a little bit of low dose Tren . most people will say not to run tren on a first cycle . well this was phase 3 of his first cycle , so was kinda like his 3rd cycle we just ran it all in a series .

    - another guy on TRT . we just added VAR, Clen, and T3 to his Current TRT . then later we added Dbol and dropped the Var . then later we added Tren at super low dose to check his response to androgens, like 25mg per day . then later we dropped compounds and rotated in deca and anadrol . all worked great .

    I could keep going . but you get the point . a first cycle is very person dependent and variable. of course "test only" is also an option , I just think in most peoples cases its not the most optimal option (and low dose, long ester test, with an AI from day one .. is a very crappy option)
    My idea is to run 400 - 500 mg test pw for 10 weeks with 50mg of anavar ed for 6 weeks.

    Would you rather throw the anavar in at the first 1-6 weeks, somewhere in between 3-8, or more towards the end 5-10?

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mula View Post
    My idea is to run 400 - 500 mg test pw for 10 weeks with 50mg of anavar ed for 6 weeks.

    Would you rather throw the anavar in at the first 1-6 weeks, somewhere in between 3-8, or more towards the end 5-10?
    I wouldn't limit myself to having to only fit VAR in a 6 week window .. its not like a toxic steroid like high dose Anadrol that should be limited to 6 weeks.
    some guys are on VAR from their TRT docs and run it year round even..

    so if you want to do a 8-10 week cycle. why not run the VAR as your main compound the whole duration .. you can taper up if you want . start at 20mg week 1, then 30mg week 2, and work up to 50mg for the duration .
    Last edited by GearHeaded; 09-09-2019 at 05:35 PM.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mula View Post
    So what would your ideal beginner cycle look like?

    I have hesitating between combining test-e/anavar or test-e/winstrol as a first blast...

    How would you run them in terms of duration and would you go for a kick-start or rather run them later in the cycle?

    Would you also advice combining test-e/anavar/winstrol together? IF yes, what would the ideal cycle durations be for all compounds?

    I think if we could get an answer on that we could create a new beginner cycle sticky without the AI's involved...
    What are your goals?? I asked GH this very question and he asked me this. Are you trying for gains at any cost? Or you want to recover after your cycle very easily?

    The cycle your proposing would fall into the second category of very easy to recover from and proven “mild” compounds

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by GearHeaded View Post
    great question .

    however, this is so much based on individual variables its hard to answer . I have had lots of different clients hire me, and then get on their first cycle and to be honest , every one of their cycles looked different (depending on the persons background, goals, training history, diet and training programing, age, stats .. and wither they were on current HRT or were planning on it).

    so because of this I don't even thing a "beginner cycle sticky" is a good idea to have up at all in the first place . just because there are too many variables to factor in , everyone is different, and there is not one standard protocol that fits everyone.

    I've helped some guys run first cycles that have looked like this

    - Var, Clen , T3 -- (no test no injectables ... "but oral only cycles are a no no , you need test" ,, blah blah blah , BS) .. and guess what, this guy required no AI , there were no estrogen sides . why ? no test and no aromatizing compounds .
    cycle worked great . Var is only minimally suppressive and he had no low T symptoms , and he recovered just fine with no PCT

    - TRT dose of test with Var or Winny (like your considering) . works like a charm. simple and effective. no negative sides, no AI needed, good gains.

    - high dose Primobolan with very low dose Test (like 100mg per week). super clean cycle most guys feel awesome on. quality lean gains slowly over time..
    you could actually do this same cycle, but drop the test out all together, and add a low dose of Dbol in its place

    now on the other end of the spectrum I've helped newbs run their first cycle that were already on TRT . I ended up doing phase cycling with them

    - so one guy on TRT already ,, we upped the Test to 1000mg per week .. added in primo too. then we rotated the primo out and added in Masteron , then at the tail end of the cycle when everything was going great, we ran a little bit of low dose Tren . most people will say not to run tren on a first cycle . well this was phase 3 of his first cycle , so was kinda like his 3rd cycle we just ran it all in a series .

    - another guy on TRT . we just added VAR, Clen, and T3 to his Current TRT . then later we added Dbol and dropped the Var . then later we added Tren at super low dose to check his response to androgens, like 25mg per day . then later we dropped compounds and rotated in deca and anadrol . all worked great .

    I could keep going . but you get the point . a first cycle is very person dependent and variable. of course "test only" is also an option , I just think in most peoples cases its not the most optimal option (and low dose, long ester test, with an AI from day one .. is a very crappy option)
    Listen to this dude. The correct answer is to find someone like him from the start. I wish I would have found him (or someone like him) when I was about 19-20 year old.

    To compare... it’s like thinking you know how to make a car go fast because you’ve worked on them for 10 years. You’ve torn down engines and rebuilt them. You’ve built your own race cars. Problem is you get set in your ways. You get ideas in your head and they become gospel. Then this fucking engineer comes along with all these “crazy ideas“. So you observe from a distance. Try some of them out. Son of a bitch the kid is onto something... next thing you know you’re asking the mad scientist to make you into Frankenstein.
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  9. #49
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    But if you’re going to try it on your own then go for the path of least resistance. Try test, but go right for 750-800mg. It works better, and if it doesn’t work for you, you’re going to know pretty fast. Or 250mg of test and 600mg of primo. I don’t think anyone has adverse reactions to primo other than being broke. The test/var combo you mentioned is also good.

    My favorite side effect free substance to date is DHB, but you’re not likely to find it right off the bat, and it’s likely to be fake. But when it’s real, you’ll know.
    Last edited by i_SLAM_cougars; 09-09-2019 at 06:01 PM.
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  10. #50
    JackMan017 is offline Junior Member
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    Elevated Estorgen & Test levels together create that synergistic effect of adding muscle, which if I understand is the entire basis of why one would cycle with just Testosterone . So then how do other compounds that have no estrogen conversion or little conversion or actually reduce estrogen add muscle?

    Wrapping up week 2 of Test only and still no A.I. Feeling good. Weight's up a little bit, but all in all, lets keep it going.

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by JackMan017 View Post
    Elevated Estorgen & Test levels together create that synergistic effect of adding muscle, which if I understand is the entire basis of why one would cycle with just Testosterone . So then how do other compounds that have no estrogen conversion or little conversion or actually reduce estrogen add muscle?

    Wrapping up week 2 of Test only and still no A.I. Feeling good. Weight's up a little bit, but all in all, lets keep it going.
    Estrogen isn't the only thing that builds muscle... Many factors result in building muscle,. It all stems from step 1, fucking hard work in the gym.

  12. #52
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    Bump. Gooooood info on this thread

    When everyone talks of being genetically predisposed to gyno, how tf do you actually know? When I went through puberty I remember having a lump behind each nipple. Does that place someone in to the category? Or are we speaking post 1st cycle and you notice sides that could lead to inducing gyno..

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krb367 View Post
    Bump. Gooooood info on this thread

    When everyone talks of being genetically predisposed to gyno, how tf do you actually know? When I went through puberty I remember having a lump behind each nipple. Does that place someone in to the category? Or are we speaking post 1st cycle and you notice sides that could lead to inducing gyno..
    There use to be this rumor going around this board a couple years ago that if you ran test and dbol together on your first cycle you would grow huge boobs and your blood would turn to glue and you would die

    It was kind of out of control for awhile. It’s gotten a lot better

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