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Thread: STOP running estrogenic compounds if you don't want estrogen sides !!!!

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Family_guy View Post
    This made me think of something interesting. So to play the devils advocate here don’t you think there are other benefits to these estrogenic compounds like test and Dbol and Ment other than just elevating E? So let’s say I take MENT and an AI(not even sure an AI is applicable cuz I don’t think MENT aromatizes but acts on the estrogen receptor itself?) will the MENT not still have plenty of anabolic effect even without the E?
    well the main thing we are looking to get out of running different compounds is this --
    each different AAS drug out there has its own set of unique genetic codes and will relay its own unique information/dna to cells that it binds to. that transcribed "information" is mainly what we are after.
    even though two different drugs may have similar effects on the body, again each drug is truly unique with its own genetic code its transcribing..

    this is one reason why I promote phase cycling and compound rotation . trying to get as much unique and 'new' muscle building information relayed to muscle cells as often as possible.. that information is the main thing we are after.


    now the indirect and secondary actions of a compound are also important but not as important as the 'code' .

    so yes there are absolutely benefits to be had and realized from estrogenic compounds beside the estrogen factor. the estrogen factor is a secondary action.
    Ment has its own unique code and DNA its transcribing to muscle cells. I take Ment cause first and foremost I want that "secret code"


    now of course we should pay attention to and use compounds based on their secondary actions as well .
    now I'll take Tren , for example, for the "code" its providing to cells . but it also has some cool secondary actions. like being a progestin based compound it interacts with progestin receptors , which in turn makes you more sensitive to estrogen , which in turn sensitizes your liver to estrogen, which in turn then begins to up regulate hepatic IGF output (estrogen works in the liver to produce IGF) . so while on Tren IGF levels begin to elevate.
    thats a secondary action we should be aware of when we chose to cycle a compound like tren.

    the estrogen aspect of an estrogenic compound is just one aspect of all the different things that compound may do . so its not the only thing I look at when considering a compound or designing a drug stack
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  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by GearHeaded View Post
    well the main thing we are looking to get out of running different compounds is this --
    each different AAS drug out there has its own set of unique genetic codes and will relay its own unique information/dna to cells that it binds to. that transcribed "information" is mainly what we are after.
    even though two different drugs may have similar effects on the body, again each drug is truly unique with its own genetic code its transcribing..

    this is one reason why I promote phase cycling and compound rotation . trying to get as much unique and 'new' muscle building information relayed to muscle cells as often as possible.. that information is the main thing we are after.


    now the indirect and secondary actions of a compound are also important but not as important as the 'code' .

    so yes there are absolutely benefits to be had and realized from estrogenic compounds beside the estrogen factor. the estrogen factor is a secondary action.
    Ment has its own unique code and DNA its transcribing to muscle cells. I take Ment cause first and foremost I want that "secret code"


    now of course we should pay attention to and use compounds based on their secondary actions as well .
    now I'll take Tren , for example, for the "code" its providing to cells . but it also has some cool secondary actions. like being a progestin based compound it interacts with progestin receptors , which in turn makes you more sensitive to estrogen , which in turn sensitizes your liver to estrogen, which in turn then begins to up regulate hepatic IGF output (estrogen works in the liver to produce IGF) . so while on Tren IGF levels begin to elevate.
    thats a secondary action we should be aware of when we chose to cycle a compound like tren.

    the estrogen aspect of an estrogenic compound is just one aspect of all the different things that compound may do . so its not the only thing I look at when considering a compound or designing a drug stack
    So what would your ideal beginner cycle look like?

    I have hesitating between combining test-e/anavar or test-e/winstrol as a first blast...

    How would you run them in terms of duration and would you go for a kick-start or rather run them later in the cycle?

    Would you also advice combining test-e/anavar/winstrol together? IF yes, what would the ideal cycle durations be for all compounds?

    I think if we could get an answer on that we could create a new beginner cycle sticky without the AI's involved...
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  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mula View Post
    So what would your ideal beginner cycle look like?

    I have hesitating between combining test-e/anavar or test-e/winstrol as a first blast...

    How would you run them in terms of duration and would you go for a kick-start or rather run them later in the cycle?

    Would you also advice combining test-e/anavar/winstrol together? IF yes, what would the ideal cycle durations be for all compounds?

    I think if we could get an answer on that we could create a new beginner cycle sticky without the AI's involved...

    great question .

    however, this is so much based on individual variables its hard to answer . I have had lots of different clients hire me, and then get on their first cycle and to be honest , every one of their cycles looked different (depending on the persons background, goals, training history, diet and training programing, age, stats .. and wither they were on current HRT or were planning on it).

    so because of this I don't even thing a "beginner cycle sticky" is a good idea to have up at all in the first place . just because there are too many variables to factor in , everyone is different, and there is not one standard protocol that fits everyone.

    I've helped some guys run first cycles that have looked like this

    - Var, Clen , T3 -- (no test no injectables ... "but oral only cycles are a no no , you need test" ,, blah blah blah , BS) .. and guess what, this guy required no AI , there were no estrogen sides . why ? no test and no aromatizing compounds .
    cycle worked great . Var is only minimally suppressive and he had no low T symptoms , and he recovered just fine with no PCT

    - TRT dose of test with Var or Winny (like your considering) . works like a charm. simple and effective. no negative sides, no AI needed, good gains.

    - high dose Primobolan with very low dose Test (like 100mg per week). super clean cycle most guys feel awesome on. quality lean gains slowly over time..
    you could actually do this same cycle, but drop the test out all together, and add a low dose of Dbol in its place

    now on the other end of the spectrum I've helped newbs run their first cycle that were already on TRT . I ended up doing phase cycling with them

    - so one guy on TRT already ,, we upped the Test to 1000mg per week .. added in primo too. then we rotated the primo out and added in Masteron , then at the tail end of the cycle when everything was going great, we ran a little bit of low dose Tren . most people will say not to run tren on a first cycle . well this was phase 3 of his first cycle , so was kinda like his 3rd cycle we just ran it all in a series .

    - another guy on TRT . we just added VAR, Clen, and T3 to his Current TRT . then later we added Dbol and dropped the Var . then later we added Tren at super low dose to check his response to androgens, like 25mg per day . then later we dropped compounds and rotated in deca and anadrol . all worked great .

    I could keep going . but you get the point . a first cycle is very person dependent and variable. of course "test only" is also an option , I just think in most peoples cases its not the most optimal option (and low dose, long ester test, with an AI from day one .. is a very crappy option)
    Last edited by GearHeaded; 09-09-2019 at 05:15 PM.
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  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mula View Post
    So what would your ideal beginner cycle look like?

    I have hesitating between combining test-e/anavar or test-e/winstrol as a first blast...
    ..

    a first cycle of 250mg of test with 50mg per day of Var, for 8 or so weeks , is a plenty effective cycle with great results and little negative side effects and of course no AI to be considered.

    the anabolic load of that cycle is equal to running 2,350 mg per week of test .. that is so so so much more effective and anabolic then a 500mg of test with AI cycle

    note - keep in mind Var is 6x more anabolic then test (and for a lot of people is nearly side effect free)

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by GearHeaded View Post
    great question .

    however, this is so much based on individual variables its hard to answer . I have had lots of different clients hire me, and then get on their first cycle and to be honest , every one of their cycles looked different (depending on the persons background, goals, training history, diet and training programing, age, stats .. and wither they were on current HRT or were planning on it).

    so because of this I don't even thing a "beginner cycle sticky" is a good idea to have up at all in the first place . just because there are too many variables to factor in , everyone is different, and there is not one standard protocol that fits everyone.

    I've helped some guys run first cycles that have looked like this

    - Var, Clen , T3 -- (no test no injectables ... "but oral only cycles are a no no , you need test" ,, blah blah blah , BS) .. and guess what, this guy required no AI , there were no estrogen sides . why ? no test and no aromatizing compounds .
    cycle worked great . Var is only minimally suppressive and he had no low T symptoms , and he recovered just fine with no PCT

    - TRT dose of test with Var or Winny (like your considering) . works like a charm. simple and effective. no negative sides, no AI needed, good gains.

    - high dose Primobolan with very low dose Test (like 100mg per week). super clean cycle most guys feel awesome on. quality lean gains slowly over time..
    you could actually do this same cycle, but drop the test out all together, and add a low dose of Dbol in its place

    now on the other end of the spectrum I've helped newbs run their first cycle that were already on TRT . I ended up doing phase cycling with them

    - so one guy on TRT already ,, we upped the Test to 1000mg per week .. added in primo too. then we rotated the primo out and added in Masteron , then at the tail end of the cycle when everything was going great, we ran a little bit of low dose Tren . most people will say not to run tren on a first cycle . well this was phase 3 of his first cycle , so was kinda like his 3rd cycle we just ran it all in a series .

    - another guy on TRT . we just added VAR, Clen, and T3 to his Current TRT . then later we added Dbol and dropped the Var . then later we added Tren at super low dose to check his response to androgens, like 25mg per day . then later we dropped compounds and rotated in deca and anadrol . all worked great .

    I could keep going . but you get the point . a first cycle is very person dependent and variable. of course "test only" is also an option , I just think in most peoples cases its not the most optimal option (and low dose, long ester test, with an AI from day one .. is a very crappy option)
    My idea is to run 400 - 500 mg test pw for 10 weeks with 50mg of anavar ed for 6 weeks.

    Would you rather throw the anavar in at the first 1-6 weeks, somewhere in between 3-8, or more towards the end 5-10?

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mula View Post
    My idea is to run 400 - 500 mg test pw for 10 weeks with 50mg of anavar ed for 6 weeks.

    Would you rather throw the anavar in at the first 1-6 weeks, somewhere in between 3-8, or more towards the end 5-10?
    I wouldn't limit myself to having to only fit VAR in a 6 week window .. its not like a toxic steroid like high dose Anadrol that should be limited to 6 weeks.
    some guys are on VAR from their TRT docs and run it year round even..

    so if you want to do a 8-10 week cycle. why not run the VAR as your main compound the whole duration .. you can taper up if you want . start at 20mg week 1, then 30mg week 2, and work up to 50mg for the duration .
    Last edited by GearHeaded; 09-09-2019 at 05:35 PM.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mula View Post
    So what would your ideal beginner cycle look like?

    I have hesitating between combining test-e/anavar or test-e/winstrol as a first blast...

    How would you run them in terms of duration and would you go for a kick-start or rather run them later in the cycle?

    Would you also advice combining test-e/anavar/winstrol together? IF yes, what would the ideal cycle durations be for all compounds?

    I think if we could get an answer on that we could create a new beginner cycle sticky without the AI's involved...
    What are your goals?? I asked GH this very question and he asked me this. Are you trying for gains at any cost? Or you want to recover after your cycle very easily?

    The cycle your proposing would fall into the second category of very easy to recover from and proven “mild” compounds

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by GearHeaded View Post
    great question .

    however, this is so much based on individual variables its hard to answer . I have had lots of different clients hire me, and then get on their first cycle and to be honest , every one of their cycles looked different (depending on the persons background, goals, training history, diet and training programing, age, stats .. and wither they were on current HRT or were planning on it).

    so because of this I don't even thing a "beginner cycle sticky" is a good idea to have up at all in the first place . just because there are too many variables to factor in , everyone is different, and there is not one standard protocol that fits everyone.

    I've helped some guys run first cycles that have looked like this

    - Var, Clen , T3 -- (no test no injectables ... "but oral only cycles are a no no , you need test" ,, blah blah blah , BS) .. and guess what, this guy required no AI , there were no estrogen sides . why ? no test and no aromatizing compounds .
    cycle worked great . Var is only minimally suppressive and he had no low T symptoms , and he recovered just fine with no PCT

    - TRT dose of test with Var or Winny (like your considering) . works like a charm. simple and effective. no negative sides, no AI needed, good gains.

    - high dose Primobolan with very low dose Test (like 100mg per week). super clean cycle most guys feel awesome on. quality lean gains slowly over time..
    you could actually do this same cycle, but drop the test out all together, and add a low dose of Dbol in its place

    now on the other end of the spectrum I've helped newbs run their first cycle that were already on TRT . I ended up doing phase cycling with them

    - so one guy on TRT already ,, we upped the Test to 1000mg per week .. added in primo too. then we rotated the primo out and added in Masteron , then at the tail end of the cycle when everything was going great, we ran a little bit of low dose Tren . most people will say not to run tren on a first cycle . well this was phase 3 of his first cycle , so was kinda like his 3rd cycle we just ran it all in a series .

    - another guy on TRT . we just added VAR, Clen, and T3 to his Current TRT . then later we added Dbol and dropped the Var . then later we added Tren at super low dose to check his response to androgens, like 25mg per day . then later we dropped compounds and rotated in deca and anadrol . all worked great .

    I could keep going . but you get the point . a first cycle is very person dependent and variable. of course "test only" is also an option , I just think in most peoples cases its not the most optimal option (and low dose, long ester test, with an AI from day one .. is a very crappy option)
    Listen to this dude. The correct answer is to find someone like him from the start. I wish I would have found him (or someone like him) when I was about 19-20 year old.

    To compare... it’s like thinking you know how to make a car go fast because you’ve worked on them for 10 years. You’ve torn down engines and rebuilt them. You’ve built your own race cars. Problem is you get set in your ways. You get ideas in your head and they become gospel. Then this fucking engineer comes along with all these “crazy ideas“. So you observe from a distance. Try some of them out. Son of a bitch the kid is onto something... next thing you know you’re asking the mad scientist to make you into Frankenstein.
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  9. #49
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    But if you’re going to try it on your own then go for the path of least resistance. Try test, but go right for 750-800mg. It works better, and if it doesn’t work for you, you’re going to know pretty fast. Or 250mg of test and 600mg of primo. I don’t think anyone has adverse reactions to primo other than being broke. The test/var combo you mentioned is also good.

    My favorite side effect free substance to date is DHB, but you’re not likely to find it right off the bat, and it’s likely to be fake. But when it’s real, you’ll know.
    Last edited by i_SLAM_cougars; 09-09-2019 at 06:01 PM.
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  10. #50
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    Elevated Estorgen & Test levels together create that synergistic effect of adding muscle, which if I understand is the entire basis of why one would cycle with just Testosterone . So then how do other compounds that have no estrogen conversion or little conversion or actually reduce estrogen add muscle?

    Wrapping up week 2 of Test only and still no A.I. Feeling good. Weight's up a little bit, but all in all, lets keep it going.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JackMan017 View Post
    Elevated Estorgen & Test levels together create that synergistic effect of adding muscle, which if I understand is the entire basis of why one would cycle with just Testosterone . So then how do other compounds that have no estrogen conversion or little conversion or actually reduce estrogen add muscle?

    Wrapping up week 2 of Test only and still no A.I. Feeling good. Weight's up a little bit, but all in all, lets keep it going.
    Estrogen isn't the only thing that builds muscle... Many factors result in building muscle,. It all stems from step 1, fucking hard work in the gym.

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    Bump. Gooooood info on this thread

    When everyone talks of being genetically predisposed to gyno, how tf do you actually know? When I went through puberty I remember having a lump behind each nipple. Does that place someone in to the category? Or are we speaking post 1st cycle and you notice sides that could lead to inducing gyno..
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krb367 View Post
    Bump. Gooooood info on this thread

    When everyone talks of being genetically predisposed to gyno, how tf do you actually know? When I went through puberty I remember having a lump behind each nipple. Does that place someone in to the category? Or are we speaking post 1st cycle and you notice sides that could lead to inducing gyno..
    There use to be this rumor going around this board a couple years ago that if you ran test and dbol together on your first cycle you would grow huge boobs and your blood would turn to glue and you would die

    It was kind of out of control for awhile. It’s gotten a lot better
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyle1337 View Post
    Estrogen isn't the only thing that builds muscle... Many factors result in building muscle,. It all stems from step 1, fucking hard work in the gym.
    Step 1a, fucking hard work in the kitchen.
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    Quote Originally Posted by i_SLAM_cougars View Post
    There use to be this rumor going around this board a couple years ago that if you ran test and dbol together on your first cycle you would grow huge boobs and your blood would turn to glue and you would die

    It was kind of out of control for awhile. It’s gotten a lot better
    Yes. Dude. I took a small hiatus from visiting the forum.. I’ve been back cruising and creeping just taking in information. I go down fucking rabbit holes all the time and rarely post (join date : post count lol) but the entire census of this place is like its in the upside down! I am on a curiosity voyage, and I need my paddles to travel. These books.. these books are my paddles.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krb367 View Post
    Yes. Dude. I took a small hiatus from visiting the forum.. I’ve been back cruising and creeping just taking in information. I go down fucking rabbit holes all the time and rarely post (join date : post count lol) but the entire census of this place is like its in the upside down! I am on a curiosity voyage, and I need my paddles to travel. These books.. these books are my paddles.
    Guys like OBS, Gearheaded, Charger, and a few others really headed it back in the right direction. Nothing was more annoying then when someone would come to “STEROID .COM” and ask a question about steroids , only for a bunch of buttholes to jump their shit with some cliche shit like “If you don’t know that then you clearly lack the knowledge required to do steroids”. Or “You know there’s a fucking search function”. Like fuck bro, it took more effort to be a demeaning dick toucher than it did to answer the poor dude’s question that you know the answer to off the top of your head anyway. The only response to “Please critique my cycle” was “Oh you’re 5’8 and 230lbs at 6% body fat? You need to get your diet in check before you worry about steroids”.

    Thanks to the above mentioned people, and a few others there is some seriously quality information here that I don’t think you will get anywhere else, and definitely not for free. I have no doubts when I say now that this is the best forum on the Internet.
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    Quote Originally Posted by i_SLAM_cougars View Post
    Guys like OBS, Gearheaded, Charger, and a few others really headed it back in the right direction. Nothing was more annoying then when someone would come to “STEROID .COM” and ask a question about steroids , only for a bunch of buttholes to jump their shit with some cliche shit like “If you don’t know that then you clearly lack the knowledge required to do steroids”. Or “You know there’s a fucking search function”. Like fuck bro, it took more effort to be a demeaning dick toucher than it did to answer the poor dude’s question that you know the answer to off the top of your head anyway. The only response to “Please critique my cycle” was “Oh you’re 5’8 and 230lbs at 6% body fat? You need to get your diet in check before you worry about steroids”.

    Thanks to the above mentioned people, and a few others there is some seriously quality information here that I don’t think you will get anywhere else, and definitely not for free. I have no doubts when I say now that this is the best forum on the Internet.
    Preach bro. Chuuuuuurch

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    Quote Originally Posted by JackMan017 View Post
    Elevated Estorgen & Test levels together create that synergistic effect of adding muscle, which if I understand is the entire basis of why one would cycle with just Testosterone . So then how do other compounds that have no estrogen conversion or little conversion or actually reduce estrogen add muscle?

    Wrapping up week 2 of Test only and still no A.I. Feeling good. Weight's up a little bit, but all in all, lets keep it going.
    estrogenic muscle growth pathways are much different then anabolic AAS growth pathways.. the body doesn't just have 'one way' it builds muscle, it builds muscle through all sorts of various mechanisms. this is why I like to stack compounds and growth factors together, to try and hit all those different pathways . so combining estrogen with androgens with anabolics with HGH etc..

    an Anabolic builds muscle mainly from binding to receptors and then communicating to the cell to 'up regulate protein synthesis' .. estrogen on the other hand helps build muscle more indirectly by helping the liver produce more IGF (insulin like growth factor) as well as promoting blood flow and nitric oxide production (you can't build muscle without sufficient blood flow) and also via glucose metabolism (estrogen plays a role in bringing glycogen into muscle cells).
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    What about for those of us that are on TRT dose of Test and want to keep E2 levels in the lower range. Im not gyno prone nor have I experience very much water bloat but I did feel way more moody before I started taking 12.5mg of Aromasin daily. Since then not so much rage. Is there anything I can replace the Aromasin with that will help?

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyV85 View Post
    What about for those of us that are on TRT dose of Test and want to keep E2 levels in the lower range. Im not gyno prone nor have I experience very much water bloat but I did feel way more moody before I started taking 12.5mg of Aromasin daily. Since then not so much rage. Is there anything I can replace the Aromasin with that will help?
    TRT is only going to put you in the normal testosterone range. So your E2 should not be very elevated.

    I would imagine even if it is at the beginning, your body will adapt over time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GearHeaded View Post
    an Anabolic builds muscle mainly from binding to receptors and then communicating to the cell to 'up regulate protein synthesis' .. estrogen on the other hand helps build muscle more indirectly by helping the liver produce more IGF (insulin like growth factor) as well as promoting blood flow and nitric oxide production (you can't build muscle without sufficient blood flow) and also via glucose metabolism (estrogen plays a role in bringing glycogen into muscle cells).
    Nice.

    So how would you categorize the following 3 compounds?: Proviron , Anavar , Winstrol ?

    I've been looking all 3 and honestly they all look promising even winstrol with the known sides...

    1.Test-e/Proviron
    2.Test-e/Anavar
    3.Test-e/Winstrol

    Those are 3 cycles i have a hard time with choosing one of them. I could possibly also stack them all 3 together but i don't know about that really. Don't have enough knowledge yet to give my opinion on that.
    Last edited by Mula; 09-17-2019 at 03:51 PM.
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    Update on my side, got my nipples itchy as f since last pin on Monday, do I go to AI (adex 0.25/EOD) or Nolva 10 ED? My nipples are hard usually everytime I am on cycle but never itchy

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dgs59 View Post
    Update on my side, got my nipples itchy as f since last pin on Monday, do I go to AI (adex 0.25/EOD) or Nolva 10 ED? My nipples are hard usually everytime I am on cycle but never itchy
    Nolva.
    Little nip itch is not that big of a deal. Its normal.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obs View Post
    Nolva.
    Little nip itch is not that big of a deal. Its normal.
    Going to start from today,

    They are now getting sensitive, I am so easy to pile up estrogen (unfortunately couldn't do the blood test)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dgs59 View Post
    Going to start from today,

    They are now getting sensitive, I am so easy to pile up estrogen (unfortunatelycouldn't do the blood test)
    Not necessarily. Sensitive nips are just a side effect of hormone fluctuation. Doesn’t necessarily mean gyno.
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  26. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mula View Post
    Nice.

    So how would you categorize the following 3 compounds?: Proviron , Anavar , Winstrol ?

    I've been looking all 3 and honestly they all look promising even winstrol with the known sides...

    1.Test-e/Proviron
    2.Test-e/Anavar
    3.Test-e/Winstrol

    Those are 3 cycles i have a hard time with choosing one of them. I could possibly also stack them all 3 together but i don't know about that really. Don't have enough knowledge yet to give my opinion on that.
    Anavar is a pure Anabolic (not androgenic or estrogenic) - it will build muscle. added bonus feature is its ability to up regulate Creatine Phosphate (and thus boost athletic performance)

    Winstrol is a pure Anabolic (not androgenic or estrogenic) - it will build muscle. added bonus feature is its ability to block Cortisol (a catabolic and fat storing hormone that usually elevates when dieting down)

    Proviron is a pure Androgen (not anabolic or estrogenic) - it will not build muscle directly. its main purpose is to lower SHBG so that you'll get more free available test and DHT (mainly DHT). elevating DHT and free test can have some sexual benefits and some cosmetic benefits to the muscle, but again it will not build muscle directly like anabolics do.


    I wouldn't consider running Proviron as part of a stack unless its needed for some Ancillary effects . like for example , if you'd been on a long run of high dose Deca and your androgen load has gone way down and your sex drive is now crashed .. Adding proviron here can help cause it will increase DHT (androgens). but again its just an ancillary, not a stand alone AAS


    Winny and Var can be added to basically any stack to add more anabolic load to the stack and get those couple extra benefits they provide as well (they are both 3-6x more anabolic then test on a mg per mg basis)
    Last edited by GearHeaded; 09-18-2019 at 10:15 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GearHeaded View Post
    Anavar added bonus feature is its ability to up regulate Creatine Phosphate (and thus boost athletic performance)

    Winstrol added bonus feature is its ability to block Cortisol (a catabolic and fat storing hormone that usually elevates when dieting down)

    Proviron is a pure Androgen (not anabolic or estrogenic) - it will not build muscle directly. its main purpose is to lower SHBG so that you'll get more free available test and DHT (mainly DHT). elevating DHT and free test can have some sexual benefits and some cosmetic benefits to the muscle, but again it will not build muscle directly like anabolics do.
    Yeah, i've been reading about their profiles yesterday in the database. Some interesting attributes indeed it seems they all have their own benefits.

    Winstrol - Beyond a reduction in SHBG, which is one of its primary traits, Winstrol will enhance protein synthesis and greatly increase nitrogen retention in the muscles. The steroid will also do a fairly decent job at increasing red blood cell count and inhibiting glucocorticoid hormones


    I've been reading some logs over on reddit from people running proviron with test and i was actually quite surprised of the effects it provided to them. Some claim to even have better results from running proviron with testosterone compared to other compounds. A part from the sexual benefits which speaks for themselves.

    BTW - Would your advice abstaining from orgasm during a cycle? I saw this documentary on mike tyson not so long ago he was saying in his prime he was abstaining for 6 to 12 months at least if not longer. Might explain why his physique and performance was so tremendous.

  28. #68
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    Is there any place where it would be more worth while to run proviron than masteron ? Which will also increase your androgen load, but also has some anabolic effects?

    Also you left tren off your list Mula

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    Quote Originally Posted by i_SLAM_cougars View Post
    Is there any place where it would be more worth while to run proviron than masteron? Which will also increase your androgen load, but also has some anabolic effects?
    I'm running Mast over proviron all day long. Mast provides similar effects as Proviron would but has way more anabolic properties and has more immediate cosmetic effects on the physique (thats why its a super popular drug to run going in contest prep). Mg per Mg Mast is cheaper and more effective.

    its been years since I used to run Proviron. but Mast is in my cycles all the time now.. sure Proviron can be synergestic in a stack and provide some benefits for sure. but I'm more DHT sensitive and Proviron mainly provides androgen load via DHT (and again is not anabolic) .

    If I want to add more Androgen load to a cycle its much easier to just add Tren (no DHT effects) which is way more androgenic . 500mg of tren is equal to over 2500+ mg a week of Proviron in androgen load, and again without a bunch of DHT.. and then of course just add the Mast too and get those progestin blunting effects
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    Quote Originally Posted by i_SLAM_cougars View Post
    Not necessarily. Sensitive nips are just a side effect of hormone fluctuation. Doesn’t necessarily mean gyno.
    it was so itchy that I was scratching my chest whole day. Started feeling so uncomfortable with the itch, then shirt touching the nipples made it was more uncomfortable. You are right, I didn't think it was gyno but I just had to get rid of that uncomfortable itching and me scratching again and again took 10mg and now feeling fine, actually it soften the nipples too and itchiness is gone, I don't mind hard nipples, I always have hard nipples when on cycle but that itchiness was killing me.

    Do you think I should continue nolva for few days?
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  31. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dgs59 View Post
    it was so itchy that I was scratching my chest whole day. Started feeling so uncomfortable with the itch, then shirt touching the nipples made it was more uncomfortable. You are right, I didn't think it was gyno but I just had to get rid of that uncomfortable itching and me scratching again and again took 10mg and now feeling fine, actually it soften the nipples too and itchiness is gone, I don't mind hard nipples, I always have hard nipples when on cycle but that itchiness was killing me.

    Do you think I should continue nolva for few days?
    It definitely won’t hurt anything. You can run it the whole time if it makes you feel better. Might just be worth the weight off your mind.
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  32. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by i_SLAM_cougars View Post
    Is there any place where it would be more worth while to run proviron than masteron ? Which will also increase your androgen load, but also has some anabolic effects?

    Also you left tren off your list Mula
    I don't wanna fuck with Tren , YET... Since it would be my first cycle i just wanna throw either test/anavar or test/prov or maybe test/anavar/prov together?

    Edit: and don't get me wrong i'm not against Tren or afraid of it. I just read sooooo many posts and advice on it of not taking it as your first cycle that i'm just fed up with it. I saw elliot hulse from strength camp saying that his first cycle ever was tren though...

    SO honestly, i don't think for someone that lifts heavy compound movements like me (over 2x my own bodyweight) that tren would be "a bad idea" to run as my first cycle... My strength and CNS are used to getting overworked already so i don't think Tren will give me unbearable sides or let's say a cycle that's too heavy to endure like it would for the average mediocre fitness newbie. Correct me if i'm wrong on this.
    Last edited by Mula; 09-19-2019 at 10:26 AM.
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  33. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mula View Post
    I don't wanna fuck with Tren , YET... Since it would be my first cycle i just wanna throw either test/anavar or test/prov or maybe test/anavar/prov together?
    i missed that it was a first cycle. That is not a bad decision. If I had to pick based on that I would say go with test and anavar. Should be very mild and still yield some nice results. Depending on how much test you’re going to run might add in 10mg of Nolva day or at least have it in hand since you don’t know if you’re sensitive to estrogen yet. Adding in mast prop, or at least having it on hand wouldn’t be a bad idea either.
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    Quote Originally Posted by i_SLAM_cougars View Post
    i missed that it was a first cycle. That is not a bad decision. If I had to pick based on that I would say go with test and anavar. Should be very mild and still yield some nice results. Depending on how much test you’re going to run might add in 10mg of Nolva day or at least have it in hand since you don’t know if you’re sensitive to estrogen yet. Adding in mast prop, or at least having it on hand wouldn’t be a bad idea either.
    spot on here ..

    its funny .. a new client of mine who never has ran AAS , I just set up his programming for him yesterday and sent it to him. guess what , it starts out with 250mg a week with test and 50mg day VAR (for phase 1) . then I have listed ancillary to have on hand, Masteron and Nolva
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  35. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by i_SLAM_cougars View Post
    i missed that it was a first cycle. That is not a bad decision. If I had to pick based on that I would say go with test and anavar. Should be very mild and still yield some nice results. Depending on how much test you’re going to run might add in 10mg of Nolva day or at least have it in hand since you don’t know if you’re sensitive to estrogen yet. Adding in mast prop, or at least having it on hand wouldn’t be a bad idea either.
    I was thinking around 400mg test per week.

  36. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by GearHeaded View Post
    spot on here ..

    its funny .. a new client of mine who never has ran AAS , I just set up his programming for him yesterday and sent it to him. guess what , it starts out with 250mg a week with test and 50mg day VAR (for phase 1) . then I have listed ancillary to have on hand, Masteron and Nolva
    Really for how long you let him run the VAR? and what's phase 2 then? What do you think of tren for a first cycle referring to my previous post.

  37. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mula View Post
    I was thinking around 400mg test per week.
    I doubt you’ll have any issues then, but it’s definitely not going to hurt to have your Nolva and mast on hand. You can always incorporate them later

  38. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by GearHeaded View Post
    spot on here ..

    its funny .. a new client of mine who never has ran AAS , I just set up his programming for him yesterday and sent it to him. guess what , it starts out with 250mg a week with test and 50mg day VAR (for phase 1) . then I have listed ancillary to have on hand, Masteron and Nolva
    ^ just to add to this (before someone thinks 250mg of test is JUST "trt" dose ) .

    the 250mg of test with 50mg a day of VAR , is 600mg per week of gear , and has a total anabolic load = to running 2,350mg of test per week (but with much less side effects) ..

    also what I didn't state is what phase 2 and 3 look like for this same beginner cycle..
    phase 2 the var is dropped and Dbol added in and test goes to 500 (an estrogenic phase)
    phase 3 the Dbol is dropped, Test stays at 500 and Masteron is added in at 400mg along with LGD (an anabolic/estrogenic phase)

    I also didn't list the growth factors being used .


    but point is , even a beginner cycle can be highly effective and advanced ,, even though we are only starting out with a low "TRT" dose of test
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  39. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mula View Post
    Really for how long you let him run the VAR? and what's phase 2 then? What do you think of tren for a first cycle referring to my previous post.
    phase 1 is 5 weeks with the var.. phase 2 is dbol and test (see above post)..

    I've had a few clients run Tren on a a first cycle . but NEVER set up with traditional cycles (always phase cycling and tren is only added in at the end of the phases once we see how the body responds to other compounds).

    ^ saying that . I do NOT at all recommend running Tren on a first cycle . only under special circumstances.. some newbie gets some Tren and runs a traditional 12 week long tren cycle as his first cycle under no supervision , umm yeah bad idea

  40. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by GearHeaded View Post
    phase 2 the var is dropped and Dbol added in and test goes to 500 (an estrogenic phase)
    phase 3 the Dbol is dropped, Test stays at 500 and Masteron is added in at 400mg along with LGD (an anabolic/estrogenic phase)
    So 1 cycle in 3 phases? How long does the full cycle take in weeks? Phase 1 is 5 weeks... How long is Phase 2 and 3?

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