Working angles when sparring

[sonar1234]

Last night i did a trial class at a kyo kushin school near my house, i still suffer from some back pain and wanted to see how well it would go, plus the sensei from this school offers 2 free classes.

At the end of the class they did some light sparring, and the sensei asked me since if i wanted to join in since i already had a backround in martial arts TKD and Karate Shotokan and Kyokushin.

When i was sparring a lot of things came back to me i did so much sparring during my tkd years, the guys i spar with always kept coming forward and forward a bit like a tank.

In my second sparring match i started to move sideways a lot more and keeping myself out of the other guys punches and kicks, in tkd its called the 45 degree angle.

It became a lot easier when doing so to actually open up my opponants guard and be able to place a lot more kicks and punches.

I dont really know if thats what they mean when they say working angles in a fight?

[uponone23]

You have got to be careful when you have a takedown artist you are going with though.. or a pickup artist is what we call them in Judo... When you use that angle it opens your front leg up to a single leg hook with which a wrestler or a judo practicioner can be dangerous.

As far as if in boxing if that's what they mean by working punching angles I don't know.

[zimmy]

yah i dont' know either...but leave that foot nice and open... man i think i'd orgasm right before i went for the single leg :P

[Hunter]

I cant really help you cause i box like a wrestler.

[Knockout_Power]

I dont really know if thats what they mean when they say working angles in a fight?

Yes, you are for the most part correct. When you step to the side (right or left) you force your opponent to either turn their body or take a step in the same direction. In most cases, this will open the distance between your opponents arms as they turn to engage you. It is also beneficial in keeping your opponent from finding "range" to land hard punches. Another big advantage to being able to work your angles is that it opens up possible pathes for your fist to follow to connect with your opponent. (Ie. from head-on, the opponents block sheilds their upper torso and face, from 2' in either direction you now open up the sides of the head at shorter distance.)

My martial arts experience is limited to less than a year of Kung fu, but I have 3 years of boxing and these techniques are critical.

[sonar1234]

Kyo kushin has no take downs, its traditionnal karate mixed with street fighting.

My damn stinking neightborhood doesnt have MMA, nor does it have Jiu Jitsu or Muay Thai.

It was an hour free class has i said, we warmed up, practiced kicks and punches blocks and couple of self defense techniques, then a bit of light sparring.

I know that if i join the class there is a huge chance that i get bored when we start practicing katas.

So i am still not sure if i wanna join or just continue my search for an MMA school or something that i would love doing from A to Z.

Thanks everyone for your comments.

[zimmy]

lol find some one locally who is interested in mma...get together...read some books :P Won't be great form...but certainly more benificial than "katas"

[aleister666]

Katas are for a reason! and work wonders for ones motor skills,improve reaction time,endurance,focus etc etc etc..They are in Karate for a reason..
I know they can become borring and cumbersome, been doing them fifteen yrs,however they are there for a purpose..
A good thing to do while doing Kata is imagine your opponent(an attacker)in each move you do,every punch,kick,block,this makes it more realistic and gives you more purpose.
Knock out Powers advice was excellent!

[sonar1234]

Katas are for a reason! and work wonders for ones motor skills,improve reaction time,endurance,focus etc etc etc..They are in Karate for a reason..
I know they can become borring and cumbersome, been doing them fifteen yrs,however they are there for a purpose..
A good thing to do while doing Kata is imagine your opponent(an attacker)in each move you do,every punch,kick,block,this makes it more realistic and gives you more purpose.
Knock out Powers advice was excellent!

What style are you practicing? thanks for the feedback BTW.

[uponone23]

I did katas in isshinryu karate for 3 years and finally came around to the point that I didn't like doing them and that plyometrics and other training techniques worked better to hone my core skills, striking ability and concentration. And I realized that karate in any form was not a viable competitive fighting technique by itself. I didn't say altogether I said BY ITSELF so don't start flaming me about how great this form or that is. I know some of it works I just don't incorporate it as much as I thought I would.

[sonar1234]

I did katas in isshinryu karate for 3 years and finally came around to the point that I didn't like doing them and that plyometrics and other training techniques worked better to hone my core skills, striking ability and concentration. And I realized that karate in any form was not a viable competitive fighting technique by itself. I didn't say altogether I said BY ITSELF so don't start flaming me about how great this form or that is. I know some of it works I just don't incorporate it as much as I thought I would.

Fist off no one will flame you and you have the right to express your opinion, this is a great forum and the respect among members is quit amazing.

My main problem is that around my place there is no good MMA schools nor BJJ or Muay Thai for that matter, its all traditionnal martial arts, i can have any kind of karate i want, shoryn ryu, shotokan, kyokushin, aikido, and traditional jiu jitsu (That school cost 850$ per year and the classes suck, they never do sparring so i am not interested.), there is a small boxing gym but i am not interested by that either. There is Tae Kwon Do but i dont want to get back into that martial art.

The only MMA school is at around 1 hour drive so this is damn to far.

I just hope that something comes up like a good BJJ school or Muay Thai.

When i went into TKD i tought it was awsome cause we always practice techiques then sparring, no katas. But TKD has everyone knows is incomplete i mean you almost never punch.

[sonar1234]

yah i dont' know either...but leave that foot nice and open... man i think i'd orgasm right before i went for the single leg :P

I agree that this stance must be asking for the takedown in Jiu Jitsu for sure.

[uponone23]

I agree that this stance must be asking for the takedown in Jiu Jitsu for sure.

In wrestling it's begging to get slammed or put in a standing heel hold which will result in a nasty nasty takedown... You get a lot of broken arms from this position. Kinda like the move hamil was showing the other guys in the TUF house.

[bently]

theres nothing wrong with traditional karate as a fighting style. just learn from those in the know how to avoid the takedown. have you notice that alot of fighters including the two guys who just stole belts gsp and a. silvia avoided the takedowns and in true stand up fighting style whether it be karate or kickboxing leveled there competition. in gsp's case he was fighting one of the best grapplers in the world. my old shotokan instructor told me one time in response to my question of how to deal with grapplers he said simply "dont get grabbed" he went on to spar with me and he told me to try to grab him in any way i could . everytime i shot i got popped. im not by any means saying dont learn grappling! because you will at some point end up on your ass and you better know the game. im just saying dont get hung up on being the next bjj master. hell i recently went to a local mma school for a free lesson and sparring session. the guys i sparred with were amazed at how difficult it was to make distance and shoot on me w/ out taking hard shots on the way in. and i havent really trained in years. my background is shotokan. (black belt). several of the more advanced guys took me down fairly easily but they too admitted takeing nasty shots on the way in. and further admitted w/out gloves and pads those shots could have swayed the fight in the real world. taking angles and shooting is an art. which is why so few are really good at it. and even fewer are good at doing anything with ya once on the ground. so i say go learn all you can from the karate guys esp. the guys founded on mas oyamas diciplines. the "bullfighter" had few rivals in his day. good luck Bently

[zimmy]

lol..."don't get grabbed"

[Panzerfaust]

theres nothing wrong with traditional karate as a fighting style. just learn from those in the know how to avoid the takedown. have you notice that alot of fighters including the two guys who just stole belts gsp and a. silvia avoided the takedowns and in true stand up fighting style whether it be karate or kickboxing leveled there competition. in gsp's case he was fighting one of the best grapplers in the world. my old shotokan instructor told me one time in response to my question of how to deal with grapplers he said simply "dont get grabbed" he went on to spar with me and he told me to try to grab him in any way i could . everytime i shot i got popped. im not by any means saying dont learn grappling! because you will at some point end up on your ass and you better know the game. im just saying dont get hung up on being the next bjj master. hell i recently went to a local mma school for a free lesson and sparring session. the guys i sparred with were amazed at how difficult it was to make distance and shoot on me w/ out taking hard shots on the way in. and i havent really trained in years. my background is shotokan. (black belt). several of the more advanced guys took me down fairly easily but they too admitted takeing nasty shots on the way in. and further admitted w/out gloves and pads those shots could have swayed the fight in the real world. taking angles and shooting is an art. which is why so few are really good at it. and even fewer are good at doing anything with ya once on the ground. so i say go learn all you can from the karate guys esp. the guys founded on mas oyamas diciplines. the "bullfighter" had few rivals in his day. good luck Bently

I am sorry to burst your bubble but to say that GSP and Anderson Silva avoided the takedown with their standup skills is ridiculous. They are Mixed Martial Artists plain and simple. GSP obviously his first martial art was striking but his wrestling and submissions are very good, his wrestling is top notch, he dominates wrestlers and takes them down (Sherk, Hughes). Silva's first Martial Art was Muay Thai until Rudimar turned Chute Boxe into a MMA school by adding BJJ and Wrestling back in the mid 90's. Silva also has a Black Belt in BJJ and his wrestling is decent in scrambles.

Bottom line is, they train everything and they prefer to strike and use their other skills to remain on their feet.

There is a big difference between you trying to take your instructor down then a good wrestler. "Don't get grabbed" is just another BS quote form a Karate teacher, as if it is that easy.

I also would'nt feel to confident in my "wrestling" if i avoided some takedowns from BJJ guy's, most of their takedowns are awful not to mention BJJ has no striking. What do you mean they took "nasty" shots on the way in? What kind of "nasty" shot did they take if they took you down? Why not visit a real MMA school and then come back and post on that.

[sonar1234]

theres nothing wrong with traditional karate as a fighting style. just learn from those in the know how to avoid the takedown. have you notice that alot of fighters including the two guys who just stole belts gsp and a. silvia avoided the takedowns and in true stand up fighting style whether it be karate or kickboxing leveled there competition. in gsp's case he was fighting one of the best grapplers in the world. my old shotokan instructor told me one time in response to my question of how to deal with grapplers he said simply "dont get grabbed" he went on to spar with me and he told me to try to grab him in any way i could . everytime i shot i got popped. im not by any means saying dont learn grappling! because you will at some point end up on your ass and you better know the game. im just saying dont get hung up on being the next bjj master. hell i recently went to a local mma school for a free lesson and sparring session. the guys i sparred with were amazed at how difficult it was to make distance and shoot on me w/ out taking hard shots on the way in. and i havent really trained in years. my background is shotokan. (black belt). several of the more advanced guys took me down fairly easily but they too admitted takeing nasty shots on the way in. and further admitted w/out gloves and pads those shots could have swayed the fight in the real world. taking angles and shooting is an art. which is why so few are really good at it. and even fewer are good at doing anything with ya once on the ground. so i say go learn all you can from the karate guys esp. the guys founded on mas oyamas diciplines. the "bullfighter" had few rivals in his day. good luck Bently

Thanks for your comment but i practiced shotokan for 6 months and thats all i could bare, after doing 4 classes of shotokan i went on to compete in point system (2 points win), i was a white belt fought orange belt and yellow belt and took away the gold after 4 classes.

Shotokan is still traditional and is far from reflecting the street, its all basic, basic blocks, basic kicks and doesnt have any variety.

A guy at my job is brown belt in shotokan, each time i spar with him i make him look like a beginner, he always lean forward with a punch to the stomach and leaves is head unprotected for the perfect kick, he is like a tank, he comes straight forward at you, and very easy to counter.

Most traditional arts are crap cause they never really put you in real danger situation, i did TKD for 7 years, but in the streets its crap.

Lately i visited a Kenpo karate kickboxing school, i ask simple questions about leg kicks and takedown defense, they look at me like i was from another planet, i asked since they got a kickboxing ring, do you guys ever spar, the sensei said well we dont wana kill each other, that dick charges 50$ a month for is classes, and they are based on musical katas.

THe main issue with tradition is that there was never any evolution, i started in shotokan at 13, went to see a class with my work buddy that is brown belt and in 21 years nothing has change, same blocking techniques, same kicks, same katas and same routine.

BORING.

[bently]

ok lets see if i can clear this up. i never said you would never get grabbed it does happen read my comments i said you will end up on your ass. and we were sparring with fairly heavy gloves and i wasnt trying to kill anyone. one instructor shot for my legs and to make a point i put a knee in his face lightly but enough to leave a bruise under his eye. now if i had drove full power with that knee on the street do you think he would have gotten the takedown? i doubt it. and the point i was making was if the only school available is a traditional karate school then something is better than nothing right? or maybe you'd rather he just sit around not training at all and wait for someone to open a mma school. shit ten years ago when i got my black belt in shotokan a mma school opened in st. louis where i was living at the time. the school is run by rodrigo vahgi. a rickson gracie student. i went there for a free lesson and tour of the school. i got my ass armbarred by a guy who had only been training in martial arts for less than a year. so im no stranger to whats effective and what isnt. but look at the current trend in mma. everyone wants to stay on there feet. so if your going to fight on your feet then learn to fight on your feet. look at hughes he spent alot of time prior to this last fight working on what? his stand-up. because he like everyone else knows fighters are getting educated to the sprawl and staying off the ground. in years past most fights ended on the ground. go look at the old ufc and pride fights. now you see alot of ko's on the feet. and also your chances of coming across a street fighter with real ground fighting skills is slim. so go ahead dont take my advice its no good anyway just sit around doing nothing while waiting for a "good school" to open up. just hope you dont pick a fight with one of the guys from the karate school who doesnt know how to fight im sure you can take him.

[bently]

by the way after reading everyones comments again why dont you stop picking only the parts of someones entire comment out to rip on and try to understand the message as a whole. 1. i never said dont train for the ground or learn grappling. 2. it was sparring not fighting so i didnt full power punch or kick anyone.(things change when you do)3. i did say that i was taken down several times but it wasnt easy even for those who are good at it. 4. i never said i repeat never said gsp and silva used stand up skills to avoid takedowns. i didnt say how i assume everyone knows both fighters well enough to know that they are very skilled grapplers. i could go on but why im sure youll pick this apart and rip on me for fun and to make yourself look so educated thats the way of the web. everyones a ten foot tall bad ass genius on the net. flame away if it makes you feel better. bently

[uponone23]

The whole point of this thread should be that if you are not a WELL ROUNDED FIGHTER you are going to get you ass handed to you at some point. Silvia is the last fighter that is champion that is not well rounded. But he fighting in a very weak UFC heavyweight division.

Like them or not Silva, GSP, Chuck, Wanderlai, Dan Henderson, Fedor, they are all well rounded fighters. They may have a strong suit but they all prepare for a fight that could involve anything.

That is the problem with TRADITIONAL methods... They are traditional... They don't prepare you for everything.

[zimmy]

by the way after reading everyones comments again why dont you stop picking only the parts of someones entire comment out to rip on and try to understand the message as a whole. 1. i never said dont train for the ground or learn grappling. 2. it was sparring not fighting so i didnt full power punch or kick anyone.(things change when you do)3. i did say that i was taken down several times but it wasnt easy even for those who are good at it. 4. i never said i repeat never said gsp and silva used stand up skills to avoid takedowns. i didnt say how i assume everyone knows both fighters well enough to know that they are very skilled grapplers. i could go on but why im sure youll pick this apart and rip on me for fun and to make yourself look so educated thats the way of the web. everyones a ten foot tall bad ass genius on the net. flame away if it makes you feel better. bently

lol ur right...everyone is ten foot tall bad ass...speciallly those who go to mma schools and "make people pay" for there take downs

:P

[bently]

never said that either just keep proving my point. pick and choose then make assumptions to make yourself look well i guess better?

[Hunter]

bently its a debate if you ever have sparred against a takedown artist or a guy like coleman(who shoots and and shoots and shoots) then you will know that striking will keep it standing only so long

[zimmy]

bently its a debate if you ever have sparred against a takedown artist or a guy like coleman(who shoots and and shoots and shoots) then you will know that striking will keep it standing only so long

yah unfortunately ... most people in the UFC's take downs are laughable at best. Usually really sloppy and afraid to go for it. There is more take downs than just a double leg. And they usually are REALLY obvious about it. There are a few people who mix in there punches enough to set up the take down...but for the most part... they don't sell the set up so the other guy just sprawls out knowing he is just preventing a take down.

[bently]

i agree with both of you. the only problem with the coleman example is that several times coleman has been beaten and knocked out after his opponents weathered the ground storm and then stood things back up. maybe this wouldnt happen so much on the street but still a good example of how the takedown is only part of the problem. you still have to finish and alot of guy are blankets for sure. the lay and pray system is more and more popular these days. i think thats why guys like matt and diego are so successfull they stay busy on the ground and are always trying to finish. wasnt it pedro rizzo who knocked out coleman and who was the black kick boxer who kicked him in the head i cant think of his name right now. anyway i like a good argument or debate i just hate the way some try to blast everything you say with out reading the whole message.

[Hunter]

yah unfortunately ... most people in the UFC's take downs are laughable at best. Usually really sloppy and afraid to go for it. There is more take downs than just a double leg. And they usually are REALLY obvious about it. There are a few people who mix in there punches enough to set up the take down...but for the most part... they don't sell the set up so the other guy just sprawls out knowing he is just preventing a take down.

Most dont even hit it right I have seen alot shoot doubles with there head on the inside only to get sprawled on. I am more of a high crotch man myself which I normally set up with the tai clinch. We have alot of good bjj/sub wrestlers on here to bad we all couldn't meet some where and roll together

[zimmy]

that be awesome to do... pass around some of our knowledge to each other...

[Hunter]

that be awesome to do... pass around some of our knowledge to each other...

I know most of us come from a wrestling background so I would love to roll with some of you guys who come from BJJ first. Hopefully we can do some rolling in texas zimmy.

[Knockout_Power]

About the "working the angles" question. The absolute master of this was Tyson pre-jail term. Watch any of his fights up to the title and just before prison and you will see the most amazingly quick left side step and right hook. He would take a little hop step back and to the left angling himself almost 90 to his opponent and then leaning into them with his right hand. He knocked out some opponents while they were blocking.

Another great who used angles in a different way was Roy Jones Jr. He used them to keep you from ever hitting him. You get frustrated and drop your hands looking for an oppening for a fraction of a second and Lights OUT.

[aleister666]

What style are you practicing? thanks for the feedback BTW.

Thanks Bro..I have studied Shotokan,Kempo,Shoirinryu,judo etc and am now in a free style Karate/kick boxing style..
Alot of people today will knock traditional Karate,however if we remember when it was created every move was intended to kill or maim,including blocks!Alot of instructors today are away from that mind set, and these sparring matches are just tag,i dont like sparring unless its heavy contact otherwise i find teaching someone to hold back on kicks and punches can be very detremental...
If we remember that many years ago a simple block was also designed as an offensive move not just defensive,for instance an inside block thrown with tremendous power can break an arm!..I would love to see a return to teaching martial arts the way it is supposed to be..Not sport! but life and death!...Just my two cents thanks..D

[sonar1234]

Thanks Bro..I have studied Shotokan,Kempo,Shoirinryu,judo etc and am now in a free style Karate/kick boxing style..
Alot of people today will knock traditional Karate,however if we remember when it was created every move was intended to kill or maim,including blocks!Alot of instructors today are away from that mind set, and these sparring matches are just tag,i dont like sparring unless its heavy contact otherwise i find teaching someone to hold back on kicks and punches can be very detremental...
If we remember that many years ago a simple block was also designed as an offensive move not just defensive,for instance an inside block thrown with tremendous power can break an arm!..I would love to see a return to teaching martial arts the way it is supposed to be..Not sport! but life and death!...Just my two cents thanks..D

YUP you got that right. Today most schools in my neightborhood concentrate on MONEY and Musical katas.

I hate tag sparring, i dont mind light sparring but also full contact sometimes is needed to say take it to the streets and get the true feeling of a real fight.