Kimbo vs Roy Nelson

**ACJiujitsu** · 10-02-2009, 05:02 PM

J dogg i respectfully disagree. if you go to a real MMA/BJJ forum with hardcore fans and fighters posting daily then 75% of the forum says they have no problem with the outcome or the way it went down.You are entitled to your opinion and i respect it.BTW i loved Royce in the pre-zuffa UFC.He's the reason i started BJJ

**rockinred** · 10-02-2009, 05:08 PM

Originally Posted by ACJiujitsu

you have to remember one thing,the show is editied to show that way. We've heard many times before that the show is not at all what you see. So i dont know how you can say anyone was being disrespectful. From my view he was very respectful to Rashad and the others when he was being chastised. He didnt argue at all. You saw what everyone else saw in that dressing room. The coach yelled while Roy said 2 words the whole time. Do you have any other examples that i may have missed?

I can't remember the specifics off the top of my head. But it was along the lines that everytime the team had to do something he was doing his own thing... As they started to talk to him he kept smurking until the very end, then he basically finally gave up arguing and said ok.

Then afterward he still went on to say that he was a master and that when two masters disagree they both need to compromise. Which to me is displaying arrogance and nothing was reaching him. I know that reality and tv are never the same... but what doesn't get made up in the studio is that Roy was being lazy and half ass in the training and was disrespecting the whole team. He has his motives and ideas and knows how to fight..that's cool, then he should be the example for the team if not for himself.. That's kind of how I think and why I am saying I didn't care for how he was acting. even if the script was somewhat tampered, I would never let Dana talk me into that role as a person. so we have to judge it from what we see, because I never met him personally.

Anyhow, I think I whored this thread up with my opinion enough. Sorry for the rant. On to the next show..

**J-Dogg** · 10-02-2009, 05:18 PM

Originally Posted by ACJiujitsu

J dogg i respectfully disagree. if you go to a real MMA/BJJ forum with hardcore fans and fighters posting daily then 75% of the forum says they have no problem with the outcome or the way it went down.You are entitled to your opinion and i respect it.BTW i loved Royce in the pre-zuffa UFC.He's the reason i started BJJ

I don't doubt that most of the hardcore fans can see Roy's logic in that fight. I can see it too, smart move. Avoided injury, he's untouched, still fresh, and going into his next fight 100%.

But 10% of the 3 million viewers are hard core MMA fans. So if Roy is only winning over 75% of the 10% of the 3 million viewers, he's gaining very few fans.

As far as MMA goes, smart move. As far as mainstream fan base MMA goes, probably a poor method of victory. Roy talks about the 'business' of MMA, but when it comes to dollars and cents, he's going about it wrong i feel.

He has to put on a big show, a good show. See Kimbo can be a crappy fighter, he looks like a beast, so people enjoy watching him. Tim Sylvia was a great fighter for awhile, but honestly the biggest thing that held him back, was his poor physic.

Kimbo is a ripped 230lbs, looks like a street tuff guy, that draws people to his fights. He has the image to sell fights, even if he looses his next 4 fights, people will watch, and us hard core MMA fans will watch, just to see him loose.

Roy has no image portrayed other than a fat red neck that likes cheese burgers though. If he does not win the contract, there is no reason to really bring him into the HW UFC. If they cut Werdum, they certainly would not start throwing fights to Roy. And even if he's good, what if Roy's fat boy image beat Brock? That would be bad for the UFC.

From a business standpoint, Roy made a poor choice.

As far as a strategy to win the TUF and that fight, it was a very smart move.

**ACJiujitsu** · 10-02-2009, 08:08 PM

If anyone is interested in hearing who fights in the final fight on The Ultimate fighter PM me

**yannick35** · 10-02-2009, 08:13 PM

Roy Nelson is not an athlete he is just a fat slob, this is MMA at least try to lose the gut, stop showing it to everyone.

It was a poor win sitting on someone face and throwing hammer fist.

Roy is the only guy that looks like a complete fat ass on the show, all the other guys at least got into decent shape and acutally look like MMA fighters.

I just cant stand this fat ass, can i have my cheeseburger now, with fries, pfff

**zimmy** · 10-03-2009, 08:47 AM

seriously...you guys need to learn that being cut and being conditioned DO NOT have to go hand and hand. Watch the fight again...just out of a few minutes Kimbo is breathing hard and roy's not. I'm done argueing about it...It's just like body building...if you are just a fan, you wouldn't understand all the things that are involved in it. But do any bb'ing, even amature or for your own benefit, and you understand things at a totally different level.

**J-Dogg** · 10-03-2009, 08:57 AM

Originally Posted by zimmy

seriously...you guys need to learn that being cut and being conditioned DO NOT have to go hand and hand. Watch the fight again...just out of a few minutes Kimbo is breathing hard and roy's not. I'm done argueing about it...It's just like body building...if you are just a fan, you wouldn't understand all the things that are involved in it. But do any bb'ing, even amature or for your own benefit, and you understand things at a totally different level.

I think you are arguing with yourself, no offense.

Some replys are simply poking at Roy's belly, and he does it also. No one is implying his conditioning is poor. A few posters had stated if he's going to be a fighter, he should not look like that. I'm sure he trains daily, maybe he needs a nutritionist help. I'm sure his cardio is fine for MMA if he's training daily.

No one is even dare saying Kimbo is a cardio machine either. He is ripped, but that makes him marketable, not a cardio machine.

I'll say that Kimbo was way better conditioned than the previous 2 fighters though, those guys were pathetic.

**roid_rage** · 10-03-2009, 09:12 AM

Originally Posted by J-Dogg

Zimmy and AC, I don't care how you roll the dice, Roy may have won that fight, but he won very few fans over, and certainly did not impress Dana.

A lot of guys who never win TUF, and just do well, or are impressive, end up getting a shot in the UFC. With a performance like that, why would Roy ever receive that shot?

The only chance Roy has of landing some fights in the UFC, is if Kimbo racks up some victories, and they put him on a card against Roy to redeem his loss.

If he had won in impressive fashion, he would be way more likley to get more fights. Wandy is loosing 75% of his fights, but he still draws a crowed from a fan base, and putting on exciting fights.

I understand your points coming from a MMA enthusiast, but MMA in the UFC and TUF is about entertainment. I consider myself, a MMA enthusiast, too, but honestly, watching UFC 2 and 3 and watching Royce wear guys out with 45 min's of BJJ, I had better things to do. Hats off to him for winning, but it was like watching paint dry.

More people know who Roy is now, but a unimpressive victory, in MMA today, does not gain you any more fights. You are better off with a impressive loss.

Would Roy get more fights if he loss and fans were saying "Wow that was a fight, Roy dished it out, and took some hard shots, but he just kept coming!"

Or "He layed on him with his belly, and tapped Kimbo on the head".

The way the fight worked out to 90% of the fans, is Roy used a big belly to smoother a guy, and exploited a rule.

Well, If I was Roy, I sure as hell rather get a "poor" winning that losing to KIMBO!!!! Losing to kimbo will put him down out of the top 100 fighters and no matter what he does after that fight, he will always be remember like the pro fighter that lost to kimbo...

By the way, dont like grappling, MMA aint your thing, not trying to be a bitch man, but if you KNOW that grappling is big part of MMA, and a legal way to win (even LnP) why would you watch the Sport??? aint better to be watching Kickboxing, boxing or some other kind of striking sport where you get to see guys actually strike? but if you still watch MMA, knowing that you can get to see too guys roll for 15 minutes, and do not throw one single punch, then you shouldnt complain because some guy outgrapple the otherone and did not send the other guy straigh to the E.R. room...

**roid_rage** · 10-03-2009, 09:22 AM

Originally Posted by J-Dogg

I don't doubt that most of the hardcore fans can see Roy's logic in that fight. I can see it too, smart move. Avoided injury, he's untouched, still fresh, and going into his next fight 100%.

But 10% of the 3 million viewers are hard core MMA fans. So if Roy is only winning over 75% of the 10% of the 3 million viewers, he's gaining very few fans.

As far as MMA goes, smart move. As far as mainstream fan base MMA goes, probably a poor method of victory. Roy talks about the 'business' of MMA, but when it comes to dollars and cents, he's going about it wrong i feel.

He has to put on a big show, a good show. See Kimbo can be a crappy fighter, he looks like a beast, so people enjoy watching him. Tim Sylvia was a great fighter for awhile, but honestly the biggest thing that held him back, was his poor physic.

Kimbo is a ripped 230lbs, looks like a street tuff guy, that draws people to his fights. He has the image to sell fights, even if he looses his next 4 fights, people will watch, and us hard core MMA fans will watch, just to see him loose.

Roy has no image portrayed other than a fat red neck that likes cheese burgers though. If he does not win the contract, there is no reason to really bring him into the HW UFC. If they cut Werdum, they certainly would not start throwing fights to Roy. And even if he's good, what if Roy's fat boy image beat Brock? That would be bad for the UFC.

From a business standpoint, Roy made a poor choice.

As far as a strategy to win the TUF and that fight, it was a very smart move.

Since when MMA became a BBuilding contest??? since when in order to be a champ and get fans you have to be big and ripped? as far as I remember Fedor is 230 chubby lazy ass looking, though he a huuuge fan base (even in the US)

Kimbo has a huge fan base not because he looks bad ass, although it might help, but for his youtube fights...

And like I told you before, even from the business standpoint, Roy made the right choice, the WORST thing it could ever happened to him was getting KTFO against Kimbo, and that was a possibility if he wanted to bang with kimbo... if he had lost that fight, he could've said bye bye to his carrer, now, he still on the run and can beat the living crap out of some other dude...

**rockinred** · 10-03-2009, 09:26 AM

Originally Posted by ACJiujitsu

If anyone is interested in hearing who fights in the final fight on The Ultimate fighter PM me

NOOO!!!...then we can't have these fun threads...

I love to argue over this stuff.. in good humor... me and my friends do it all day and poke at eachothers favorite fighters. Then we talk smack all thru the fights...

I got a bit carried away on this thread dissing on Roy, but computer sucks for this stuff.. because all the shit talk usually comes with a smile from me and no one would ever know...

**rich1261** · 10-03-2009, 09:45 AM

from watching him so far on this season i have started to like kimbo. he has good heart and ambition to learn.. his ground game really needs work though. everyone is sayin it was a terrible fight and roy sucks but from a fighters point of view roy did just what he should have. if he stood with kimbo he would have been taking a nap so he took him down crusifixed him and kept landing perfect game plan.. in a non fighters eyes yes i can see how it was a boring fight

**ACJiujitsu** · 10-03-2009, 02:53 PM

Originally Posted by rockinred

NOOO!!!...then we can't have these fun threads...

I love to argue over this stuff.. in good humor... me and my friends do it all day and poke at eachothers favorite fighters. Then we talk smack all thru the fights...

I got a bit carried away on this thread dissing on Roy, but computer sucks for this stuff.. because all the shit talk usually comes with a smile from me and no one would ever know...

exactly the reason we have these forums. What fun would it be if we all had the same opinion

**J-Dogg** · 10-04-2009, 06:28 AM

Originally Posted by roid_rage

Since when MMA became a BBuilding contest??? since when in order to be a champ and get fans you have to be big and ripped? as far as I remember Fedor is 230 chubby lazy ass looking, though he a huuuge fan base (even in the US)

Kimbo has a huge fan base not because he looks bad ass, although it might help, but for his youtube fights...

And like I told you before, even from the business standpoint, Roy made the right choice, the WORST thing it could ever happened to him was getting KTFO against Kimbo, and that was a possibility if he wanted to bang with kimbo... if he had lost that fight, he could've said bye bye to his carrer, now, he still on the run and can beat the living crap out of some other dude...

A guy as open minded and as smart as you, certainly understands the marketing aspect of a fighter right?

**yannick35** · 10-04-2009, 07:46 AM

Josh Barnett and Fedor have always look soft, more Barnett then Fedor but are 2 of the best MMA fighters in the world. But they never let themselve get big guts like Roy Nelson, hell even Tim Sylvia.

Kimbo is not a cardio machine, and i think that he might not have done the most of is time spent with Bas Rutten, where he should have worked on is ground game a lot more.

Quit sad because Kimbo is what 35 years old, still a great entertainer he has so much time infront of him to learn the ground game, mabye not submissions but at least positioning and takedown defense. With that knowlege he would be very hard to takedown because has far has power goes he has it already.

One of the best takedown defense for a striker that i have seen is Chuck Liddel.

**roid_rage** · 10-04-2009, 08:08 AM

Originally Posted by J-Dogg

A guy as open minded and as smart as you, certainly understands the marketing aspect of a fighter right?

I do man, but for real, theres been too much hype to bbuilders type of fighters recently that is just seems like everybody now has to look like that, Duffee Kod some can out (yeah the fastes Ko I know) but ppl is talking like he should get lesnar now, if he was a chubby guy, no one would even pay attention to him so far (because hes a rookie now, not saying he doesnt have potential) Ive got into sooo many discussions with ppl that were flaming and judging Roys cardio, roy's stamina, roy's power, roy's skill just for his look, were saying that kimbo is in such a good shape lalallalalal and he was going to ko Roy for it, just kind of got tired of that sh... (not talking about you here)...

**yannick35** · 10-04-2009, 09:52 AM

Originally Posted by roid_rage

I do man, but for real, theres been too much hype to bbuilders type of fighters recently that is just seems like everybody now has to look like that, Duffee Kod some can out (yeah the fastes Ko I know) but ppl is talking like he should get lesnar now, if he was a chubby guy, no one would even pay attention to him so far (because hes a rookie now, not saying he doesnt have potential) Ive got into sooo many discussions with ppl that were flaming and judging Roys cardio, roy's stamina, roy's power, roy's skill just for his look, were saying that kimbo is in such a good shape lalallalalal and he was going to ko Roy for it, just kind of got tired of that sh... (not talking about you here)...

Duffee has proven nothing, fast KO big deal lots of fight end in fast KO, yeah first UFC fight record 7 seconds still.

He will face Paul Buentello next, Paul has never had an amazing physique but he can bang, this is only the next step for Duffee.

After that we will see.

Lesner is going to stay on top for a very long time, right now the only heavyweight that i can see would be a perfect match would be Noguera.

And never forget that Lesner is still learning so he will get better after each fight.

Has far has MMA goes, its the most demanding and complete sport there is, you are suppose to eat healty and train like a dog almost each day to be the best, at least that is what it represent to me.

To be able to get in there and do 3 5 minute rounds, going on the ground, grappling, twisting and turning, holding your opponent down, against the cage and more, that takes a lot of energy.

It is not normal for a guy like Roy Nelson to show such disgrace to MMA, after all he trains, he lifts weights, but he eats like a pig and don't tell me he has that gut because of genetics.

Plus he acts like a total jerk on the show. Even if he would have fought someone else then Kimbo he still would have looked like crap.

Phil Baroni has the best looking physique in MMA but look where it got him, no where, he needs to retire but he just doesn't get it, 170 pounds is way to small for him and last fight he gased out because of the severe cut.

Randleman has well, he was in shape but not in fighting shape.

So being build like a bodybuildler does not have any advantages a part from looking good.

Fabricio Werdun lost the weight and that was a good thing because in is last fights he had bulk up to 248 pounds and he was fat, a lot slower and is cardio was way off.

Without having a bodybuilding physique you can always have a better shape and less around the waist.

**J-Dogg** · 10-04-2009, 11:56 AM

Originally Posted by yannick35

Duffee has proven nothing, fast KO big deal lots of fight end in fast KO, yeah first UFC fight record 7 seconds still.

He will face Paul Buentello next, Paul has never had an amazing physique but he can bang, this is only the next step for Duffee.

After that we will see.

Lesner is going to stay on top for a very long time, right now the only heavyweight that i can see would be a perfect match would be Noguera.

And never forget that Lesner is still learning so he will get better after each fight.

Has far has MMA goes, its the most demanding and complete sport there is, you are suppose to eat healty and train like a dog almost each day to be the best, at least that is what it represent to me.

To be able to get in there and do 3 5 minute rounds, going on the ground, grappling, twisting and turning, holding your opponent down, against the cage and more, that takes a lot of energy.

It is not normal for a guy like Roy Nelson to show such disgrace to MMA, after all he trains, he lifts weights, but he eats like a pig and don't tell me he has that gut because of genetics.

Plus he acts like a total jerk on the show. Even if he would have fought someone else then Kimbo he still would have looked like crap.

Phil Baroni has the best looking physique in MMA but look where it got him, no where, he needs to retire but he just doesn't get it, 170 pounds is way to small for him and last fight he gased out because of the severe cut.

Randleman has well, he was in shape but not in fighting shape.

So being build like a bodybuildler does not have any advantages a part from looking good.

Fabricio Werdun lost the weight and that was a good thing because in is last fights he had bulk up to 248 pounds and he was fat, a lot slower and is cardio was way off.

Without having a bodybuilding physique you can always have a better shape and less around the waist.

I'm not, and never will say how jacked you are = how great of a fighter you are.

But it does affect the ability to market that fighter. Could you imagine people buying action figures that look like Roy Nelson? If they made a Fedor action figure, he would be not made to specs.

Why do you think they even made one of Sherk?

Baroni would never be a topic of anything, if he did not have the build he does. He's a fairly popular fighter in the community and it's certainly not from his performance.

Even AS is not super jacked, but he's certainly not chubby.

There is not a chubby UFC title holder in the UFC at all. GSP is ripped 24/7. AS is lean, just not a muscular build. Machita is conditioned,and looks like it, and Brock is a over sized line backer cross bread with a Beige Blue Cow.

How marketable would the UFC be if Roy Nelson was the HW champ, and Mini Roys carried the belt?

Sumo Wreslers are conditioned too, but Sumo has never made it as a entertaining sport in the USA.

There are plenty of chubby boxers too, but we just don't know who they are.

Conditioning, and carrying a respectable build, is part of MMA in the UFC and that's just all there is to it. You could be the best in the world, but you are going to make more per fight, if you condition your body and watch your diet. Even if the champ is Roy, Brock would make more per fight and headline the fights over the champion ship bout. Rampage, chuck and wandy normally make 100k+ more than title match bouts with them not in it.

**yannick35** · 10-04-2009, 12:44 PM

You would be surprised to see GSP between fights, he is not that ripped.

He is around 190 pounds and a lot less defined. I have seen him many times between fights, i live near Montreal, and went to MMA shows on a regular basis, plus he did a sparring exibition at hard rock cafe in Montreal.

But still you are right marketing is a big issue like pro wrestling is has well.

**roid_rage** · 10-04-2009, 12:50 PM

and what is that have to do with being a better or worst fighter???? dude tahts up to the UFC to worry about their finances, how good their fighters look and crap, not about me, I worry about how good fighters are and have no problem with chubby fighters, by the way, bj was pretty chubby fighter...

And Roy's gut is part of his genetics too.. I do eat like a mofo when im not training, eat shit for 3-4 months a year, and I do not gain any fat (well, may be a little), thats just my genentics, I cant be fat, that's just me....some ppl get fat, some doesnt.

**J-Dogg** · 10-04-2009, 02:41 PM

Originally Posted by roid_rage

and what is that have to do with being a better or worst fighter???? dude tahts up to the UFC to worry about their finances, how good their fighters look and crap, not about me, I worry about how good fighters are and have no problem with chubby fighters, by the way, bj was pretty chubby fighter...

And Roy's gut is part of his genetics too.. I do eat like a mofo when im not training, eat shit for 3-4 months a year, and I do not gain any fat (well, may be a little), thats just my genentics, I cant be fat, that's just me....some ppl get fat, some doesnt.

BJ was a chubby fighter at one point, but he was a blown up light weight and did not do nearly as good as he is currently.

I just think it's in Roy's best interest to LOOK in shape to be an entertaining fighter in MMA or the UFC. That's part of the job.

Either that or he has to find a way to make himself marketable another way, and slapping Kimbo on the top of the head is not working for that.

Why don't you get it I guess? I'm not saying Roy is a shitty fighter.

Kimbo is a worse fighter, that's for certain. Compare Kimbo's bank account to Roy's and you'll see who is more marketable.

Roy has to win TUF to get a contract, Kimbo already has one, we know he is fighting already.

Roy beat Kimbo in a MMA match, but Kimbo will still get a better paying contract than Roy because Kimbo is marketable.

Roy is making the right choices to win TUF, and honestly, I think he has a really good shot. But he has to be more impressive if he wants to make the big bucks.

**yannick35** · 10-04-2009, 03:50 PM

With is experience Roy Nelson should have started fighting for the UFC already either in a Fight night event or prelim bouts at a PPV event.

He got some very strong exposure in the IFL, bodog and EliteXE, a part from Kimbo he has the most exposure on this current TUF season.

With a backround like this its really funny that he is on TUF.

**higherdesire** · 10-04-2009, 06:00 PM

Originally Posted by yannick35

Roy Nelson is not an athlete he is just a fat slob, this is MMA at least try to lose the gut, stop showing it to everyone.

It was a poor win sitting on someone face and throwing hammer fist.

Roy is the only guy that looks like a complete fat ass on the show, all the other guys at least got into decent shape and acutally look like MMA fighters.

I just cant stand this fat ass, can i have my cheeseburger now, with fries, pfff

then why was Matt Hughes victory over Royce Gracie so big of a deal? ended the exact same way as I recall. I am not comparing the two fights, just saying that that is a hell of a way to win a fight, just these two looked a lot slopppier than what we would like to see from that level of athletes. Fight should have been called in the first round according to the rules. Just my .02

**yannick35** · 10-04-2009, 06:02 PM

Originally Posted by higherdesire

then why was Matt Hughes victory over Royce Gracie so big of a deal? ended the exact same way as I recall. I am not comparing the two fights, just saying that that is a hell of a way to win a fight, just these two looked a lot slopppier than what we would like to see from that level of athletes. Fight should have been called in the first round according to the rules. Just my .02

Because Matt Hughes put the hurting on Gracie, he was done.

That was an amazing fight.

Kimbo vs Nelson was very boring.

**roid_rage** · 10-05-2009, 09:03 AM

Originally Posted by J-Dogg

BJ was a chubby fighter at one point, but he was a blown up light weight and did not do nearly as good as he is currently.

I just think it's in Roy's best interest to LOOK in shape to be an entertaining fighter in MMA or the UFC. That's part of the job.

Either that or he has to find a way to make himself marketable another way, and slapping Kimbo on the top of the head is not working for that.

Why don't you get it I guess? I'm not saying Roy is a shitty fighter.

Kimbo is a worse fighter, that's for certain. Compare Kimbo's bank account to Roy's and you'll see who is more marketable.

Roy has to win TUF to get a contract, Kimbo already has one, we know he is fighting already.

Roy beat Kimbo in a MMA match, but Kimbo will still get a better paying contract than Roy because Kimbo is marketable.

Roy is making the right choices to win TUF, and honestly, I think he has a really good shot. But he has to be more impressive if he wants to make the big bucks.

I get what you are saying, but I dont agree, while is true that entertainers make more money in this sport, I dont agree that looking good is part of the job, not at all...Entertain? yeah in some degree...I do hate the LnPrayers, If every single fighter was going to fight just to not lose, then the sport will be dead in less than 1 year, so I suppous is a fighters job to put on a good fight...

**ACJiujitsu** · 10-05-2009, 10:07 AM

Originally Posted by higherdesire

then why was Matt Hughes victory over Royce Gracie so big of a deal? ended the exact same way as I recall. I am not comparing the two fights, just saying that that is a hell of a way to win a fight, just these two looked a lot slopppier than what we would like to see from that level of athletes. Fight should have been called in the first round according to the rules. Just my .02

WHAT? Matt Hughes took Royce's back stretched him out,sat up then started landing massive shots to the head.It was nothing at all like what happened with Nelson/Kimbo. Now if your talking about what Hughes did to BJ penn,thats a bit different. Hughes had Bj crucifixed and landed shots to the face

**higherdesire** · 10-05-2009, 03:20 PM

Originally Posted by yannick35

Because Matt Hughes put the hurting on Gracie, he was done.

That was an amazing fight.

Kimbo vs Nelson was very boring.

Originally Posted by ACJiujitsu

WHAT? Matt Hughes took Royce's back stretched him out,sat up then started landing massive shots to the head.It was nothing at all like what happened with Nelson/Kimbo. Now if your talking about what Hughes did to BJ penn,thats a bit different. Hughes had Bj crucifixed and landed shots to the face

It was a boring fight. It wont be the last one we see where there is a winner. The post was in response to it was a dishonorable way to win by AC.

AC both those fights were finished in basically the same fashion, Matt on top hitting them in the head and they're arms were not movable and they could not escape. MUCH more entertaining and talented, but the statement was that some how Nelson had not done his job because he immobilized Kimbo and hit him in the head until he was TKO'd. Same deal man. That's all I am saying.

**ACJiujitsu** · 10-07-2009, 09:17 PM

Originally Posted by higherdesire

It was a boring fight. It wont be the last one we see where there is a winner. The post was in response to it was a dishonorable way to win by AC.

AC both those fights were finished in basically the same fashion, Matt on top hitting them in the head and they're arms were not movable and they could not escape. MUCH more entertaining and talented, but the statement was that some how Nelson had not done his job because he immobilized Kimbo and hit him in the head until he was TKO'd. Same deal man. That's all I am saying.

You should go back and watch the Hughes/Gracie fight again. Matt hughes was on his back.Its not even close to the same posistion as a crucifix. Royce had full use of his arms. He was covering up. Im totally missing what your trying to say. Im sorry im a little confused, but those two fights couldnt be anymore different.

Also you have me confused with someone else. I never said that it was a dishonorable way for Nelson to win. I've been one of his biggest supporters on here.