cutting carbs PWO

**dazbo** · 06-29-2005, 03:55 PM

Right, I have been sticking to my diet really well lately. I am cutting and a typical day goes like this -

meal 1 - 3 whole eggs and 3 egg whites (Enriched with flax)

meal 2 - Tin of tuna

meal 3 - 2 chicken breasts with light marinade

meal 4 - protein shake with half cup of oats

Train

Meal 5 - 40g protein shake with 80g dextrose

Meal 6 - chicken breast with new potatoes veg (Can vary maybe rice,pasta,tuna, fish etc)

Meal 7 - 3 whole eggs and 3 egg whites

(Flax spread throughout the day and loadsa other supps.

Anyway, Ive not been noticing any fat loss even when on prop/var. So I decided to experiment and do the following -

meal 1 - 3 whole eggs (Enriched with fats)

meal 2 - 2 Chicken breasts in marinade

meal 3 - Protein shake

meal 4 - almonds/walnuts/various other natural nuts as a snack

train

meal 5 - chicken breast with new potatoes veg (Can vary maybe rice,pasta,tuna, fish etc)

meal 6 - 3 whole eggs (Enriched with flax)

Right, Ive chose to try out the above because I needed to really cut some fat. I cant lose any muscle with the above can i ??? I ride to work for 25mins on bike, and ride home. I play football once per week. I train, normally 4/5days heavy weights.

What are your oppinons on the above ???

age 23, weight 200lbs, BF 10%, 5'10"

thank you

**dazbo** · 06-29-2005, 03:56 PM

as you can see, the only time I eat carbs is PPWO now. None for the rest of the day like I did before.

**dazbo** · 06-29-2005, 03:57 PM

Oh yeah, and one more thing - I beleive that I have an underactive thyroid and hence the reason why Im having to go so low on the cals to cut - lower metabolism n all

**Kärnfysikern** · 06-29-2005, 04:17 PM

I think it would be better to drop ppwo carbs and keep pwo if you want to cut down on carbs..

Have you tried t-3?

**dazbo** · 06-29-2005, 04:27 PM

no I didnt want to use T-3 at all. For the possible dangers of messing with, what is already a poor performing, thyroid!! Family history of it n all that. Also, dont like the thought of the catabolism of the T-3.

I dont want to cut the PPWO carbs because its the only meal me and the wife eat together, she cooks it, and its hard enough to get a good nice meal out of it for the two of us. Plus its my fav meal of the day.

**Kärnfysikern** · 06-29-2005, 04:29 PM

if you realy want to lower carbs then half the pwo shake but dont eliminate it completely. I think eliminating it is a very bad idea. however I did a keto diet for several months and didnt lose any strenght so you might keep it. but I still think to play it safe take atleast 40grams pwo. maby cut down some on fat to during the day

**Kärnfysikern** · 06-29-2005, 04:30 PM

and cant you have that meal with your wife but just skip the poatoes?

**dazbo** · 06-29-2005, 04:48 PM

I could but Id be left with chicken !! like my dinner is! boring! And sometimes, that meal is just chicken and veg, no pots with it. depends on what she feels like making

**Kärnfysikern** · 06-29-2005, 04:50 PM

lol boring dinners comes with cutting

I havent eaten potatoes in like 5 months

not counting cheat days offcourse.

***Giantz11*** · 06-29-2005, 05:11 PM

Your Diet posted before with carbs looked good....If you didn't have any fat loss then just drop your cals a bit and do cardio. If you weren't gaining fat well that is a good sign. Since you are doing a cycle you can drop you cals way lower than the natural person and cut alotta fat that way. I wouldn't elimate that many carbs because carbs are the most protein sparing macro.

**timtim** · 06-29-2005, 06:23 PM

used to have the same problem, it's the lack of cardio in my case......might effect you too. right now i'm doing a variety of cardio, looks like this:

Double Sessions: 30 min. uphill in AM / 45 min. uphill in PM (@4ish after work)

HIIT: I'm a speed/strength coach part time, do a 45 min. routine with one of my football players, 10 to 15 40's, gasers + hills

Training Days: on days i filt, 30 min. brisk walk in AM, heart rate just at 65%, maybe alittle lower, no need to go hard on training days

if you have time, try the cardio. i've gotten much better results as i added cardio and carbs. i added an extra 1/2 cup oats on uphill days and brisk walk days. i added dextrose and whey after HIIT. i am also a low calorie person, 186 lbs, 10%, 5'5" eating between 1880 cals. a day up to 2150, varies everyday. just really began timing my carb intake after years of low carb dieting. much better results.

**SwoleCat** · 06-29-2005, 10:16 PM

I'd starve on that!!!!!!!

~SC~

**bigdogc** · 06-30-2005, 12:44 AM

when you say play football once a year, does that mean like one season, or like one game per year?

And also, both diets look fine.. adjust your cardio, see how your body responds to it.. if you can tell strenghth is still great and you are loosing a little body fat then just stick with that, you will see it progress slowly but surely

**beenie** · 06-30-2005, 06:26 AM

Originally Posted by dazbo

I could but Id be left with chicken !! like my dinner is! boring! And sometimes, that meal is just chicken and veg, no pots with it. depends on what she feels like making

Is that YOUR pic on your icon? If so, you are really big.

For me it is really hard to go below 10%. I can do it, but its very hard to maintain, because it means so much will power in keeping calories down.

Frankly, I would kill the carbs that you are eating and replace them with additional protien. This will have three benefits. First, people who are on low carb diets burn more calories, accordiong to some study I recently read (and cannot remember its source). Secondly, it will keep your blood sugar levels more stable so you will not have that insulin spkie which leads to hunger. Thirdly, it takes protien longer to digest so you will not feel hungry for longer periods of time.

**co2boi** · 06-30-2005, 06:31 AM

Originally Posted by beenie

Is that YOUR pic on your icon? If so, you are really big.

For me it is really hard to go below 10%. I can do it, but its very hard to maintain, because it means so much will power in keeping calories down.

Frankly, I would kill the carbs that you are eating and replace them with additional protien. This will have three benefits. First, people who are on low carb diets burn more calories, accordiong to some study I recently read (and cannot remember its source). Secondly, it will keep your blood sugar levels more stable so you will not have that insulin spkie which leads to hunger. Thirdly, it takes protien longer to digest so you will not feel hungry for longer periods of time.

I personally think that's a terrible idea. So are you suggesting that he only eats proteins and fats?

**beenie** · 06-30-2005, 06:37 AM

Originally Posted by co2boi

I personally think that's a terrible idea. So are you suggesting that he only eats proteins and fats?

He is trying to go really low in bf%. I dont think that carbs will help him much do that, notwithstanding the the benefits of fiber from them. So, if he is going to ingest carbs, I would limit them to the low carb/low calorie ones - but basically what you think is a terrible idea is my idea.

I think I have outlined my logic for what I describe fairly plainly.

BTW, what is your suugestion on what he should do co2boi? His description of what he is doing now seems pretty much what is suggested. If he keeps this cource of action the only thing I could think of would be to cut calories, and frankly, he already is not eating much or as an alternative do more cardio, and my assumption is that he is already doing a lot.

**co2boi** · 06-30-2005, 07:12 AM

I see your point and there wasn't any flame intended. I do agree that he should monitor the types of carbs that he eats, but a diet lacking in plant foods (vegetables, fruits, beans, and grains) is simply not healthy.

There's more than fiber to consider, such as phytochemicals--things like carotenoids, vitamins C and E, selenium, indoles, isothiocyanates, flavonoids, phenols, and limonene. Most of these things are hard, if not impossible to replace with multi-vits.

Not only is their a risk of increasing cholesterol levels, the diet could cause kidney problems or possibly a loss of calcium in the bones. Limiting the intake of carbohydrates to such a dramatically low level starves the body of needed nutrients and causes an artificial metabolic state.

Then there's the unbearable fatigue he will experience.

Furthermore, if he does this no-carb thing, once he starts to eat carbs again he's going to gain the weight and possibly more back almost immediately.

**beenie** · 06-30-2005, 07:40 AM

Originally Posted by co2boi

I see your point and there wasn't any flame intended. I do agree that he should monitor the types of carbs that he eats, but a diet lacking in plant foods (vegetables, fruits, beans, and grains) is simply not healthy.

There's more than fiber to consider, such as phytochemicals--things like carotenoids, vitamins C and E, selenium, indoles, isothiocyanates, flavonoids, phenols, and limonene. Most of these things are hard, if not impossible to replace with multi-vits.

Not only is their a risk of increasing cholesterol levels, the diet could cause kidney problems or possibly a loss of calcium in the bones. Limiting the intake of carbohydrates to such a dramatically low level starves the body of needed nutrients and causes an artificial metabolic state.

Then there's the unbearable fatigue he will experience.

Furthermore, if he does this no-carb thing, once he starts to eat carbs again he's going to gain the weight and possibly more back almost immediately.

I didn't take it as a falme -but thanks for saying that. My problem is that I have not seen anyone really addressing Dazbo's problem. I offered my best shot at getting him below 10%. The only other stuff I have heard is that he should lower his already low caloric intake, lower his fat intake, whic I see very little of, or increase his cardio - which I believe he is currently doing 45 mins a day already.

Persoanally, on his diet I think that I would be skin and bones, because he eats very little, so it will be hard for him. I am also not sure how he maintians his muscle mass given this.

**Kärnfysikern** · 06-30-2005, 07:56 AM

dazbo when looking at your stats we are very similar. Im 5¨11, a bit under 200 ibs and probably around 10-12% bf. we seem to have the same problem shedding fat to.

When reading your first post a little more I noticed 3 carb meals before the switch. At first I would say keep pwo carbs but drop pre workout carbs and ppwo carbs. If that doesnt get you started in weightloss again then try to lower pwo carbs. Going into full keto works no doubt about it. But it might not be needed since you have stuff you can cut down on. I personaly notice that when I cut down carbs to much I get very cold. that must be a sign of lower metabolism.

Can you maby calculate your macros to se how much of everything you get each day?

**dazbo** · 06-30-2005, 11:51 AM

gotta go to gym right now so no time to reply. Thanks for those interesting replies and when I get back, ill reply back to you about it ok

thanks again

**timtim** · 06-30-2005, 01:41 PM

everyone is different when it comes to caloric needs. i tried the harris benedict formula and i gained bf pretty quick. even when i bulk i can't go over 2500 calories a day and like i stated before i'm 5'5" 186 with 10% (i got tested at 9.2% last friday but i don't think i'm 9). those super low calories to some are just right to others. if he is maintaining his muscle/fat ratio at those calories i would increae cardio first before cutting calories. from my personal experience lowering calories will slow your metabolism.

**dazbo** · 06-30-2005, 01:43 PM

Right Im back now - did back but no pun intended!

Right, I do do cardio. I ride to work like i said and back which is a total of 50 mins pretty hard going. I lift 4/5times per week for 1 hour or just over. I also play football (English type) at least once per WEEK. Not per year ?!?? So I think I do enough no ??? Ive also been doing a lot of heavy gardening at some weekends.

So theres that sorted. Like Ive said before, johan, I really dont want to skip that PPWO meal because its the only one to keep me sane! It is also my main vegetable source where I generally get a days worth in this meal alone. And like some said above, they are normally complex carbs which in the end I think would be better for fat loss as no spikes involved unlike the PWO dextrose (Yes I know they reckon we want a spike here for many reasons).

I have not had any loss in energy since dropping these carbs. My workouts are still going good - pushed out 375lb bench press (Free bar) and 320lb shoulder press (Smiths) which is the most Ive ever done (I know the Var etc has only JUST kicked in!!). So, I dont think Im seeing any negative side to having skipped this PWO carbs. For the first time in a while, I actually increased in weight the last week. I weigh myself every monday and things have gone like this -

started cycle at weight - 87kg
after 1 week - 88kg
2 weeks - 89kg
3weeks - 90.75kg
4weeks - unable to weigh
5weeks - unable to weigh
6 weeks - 89.5kg (Dropped here after low calorie intake and a LOT of patio laying etc for one full week)
7weeks - 90.25kg (The first increase for a while and this is when I changed my diet to lower carbs.

I will have to wait till monday to weigh myself again tho.

As you can see, I seem to have to go really low to drop the fat. I also DONT feel like Ive lost any fat at all over this time but I definately havent gained any. I am now more vascular and feel slightly more defined though.

If I keep my PPWO carbs, they equate to around 100grams daily and are the only carbs I have. I beleive it may have something to do with my thyroid function as to having such a low metablolism. Im going to ask doc to test it to see how low it is.

Oh yeah, my fats from good sources such as nuts have gone up and I supplemetn with various oils, flax, vit E, fish oils, cod liver etc etc.

thanks so far guys - now what do you think of it ??

**dazbo** · 06-30-2005, 01:46 PM

oh yeah - it is me in the avatar prior to any AAS. It makes me look bigger than I am tho

**dazbo** · 06-30-2005, 04:38 PM

bump

**Kärnfysikern** · 07-01-2005, 04:00 AM

bro you dont need to cut down on veggies. Eat all the veggie you want except corn and peas.

Il keep a check on this thread and se how it works out. Sounds like you are gaining

also try to increase your vitamin a dosage it has been shown to increase thyroid hormones in those that are deficient.

**Kärnfysikern** · 07-01-2005, 04:01 AM

ohh yeah any possibility that you can post the macros of each day?

**IronFreakX** · 07-01-2005, 06:00 AM

didnt read every1 replies.... but diet needs work!!!!

**dazbo** · 07-01-2005, 11:41 AM

why iron freak ?????!??!! I dont think it does - the macros are perfect for what i need and want

***Giantz11*** · 07-01-2005, 11:49 AM

Dazbo,

What's your daily kcal intake???

**dazbo** · 07-01-2005, 11:53 AM

heres the breakdowns ..........

**dazbo** · 07-01-2005, 11:55 AM

I dont know if the nuts are correct but the ones I eat are almonds,walnuts, brazils and one other I think. Plus the peanut butter.

52:14:34 - prot:carbs:fat

***Giantz11*** · 07-01-2005, 11:59 AM

Since you are Prop and Var I bet you could get away with lower those cals to about 2,00o per day withouy any muscle loss. Just do plenty of cardio and remember to cheat like a bastard once per week where you carb up.

**dazbo** · 07-01-2005, 12:01 PM

I may just do that thanks giantz

***Giantz11*** · 07-01-2005, 12:11 PM

Nice, Let me know how that works....by the way sorry for the terrible gramar!

**dazbo** · 07-01-2005, 04:03 PM

thing is, looking at my diet, how can I really eat any less ?!??!?

**Kärnfysikern** · 07-01-2005, 06:01 PM

well you are eating over 400kcal/day more then me and we are similar weight height and bf%

I am around 50grams lower on protein then you though.

Dont have time now and maby not tomorrow(Im at my girls place all weekend) to post my diet. But if you search this forum you can find it. Maby it can give you some ideas. I think my latest diet thread was called "finetuned diet" or something along those lines.

replacing whole eggs with whey shakes is one way to bring down kcal without losing protein in the diet. Cutting the potatoe serving in half is another way. You could drop the total kcal intake from fat down to 20% instead of 32%
If you are like me you can cut down on protein without losing muscle mass.

Just some ideas.

**Kärnfysikern** · 07-01-2005, 06:07 PM

here is what I would suggest, Drop the eggs completely. Replace them with a whey shake that contains 35g protein and 5g flax or olive oil. That will be a drop of nearly 300kcal if my quick calculation is right. that would be all you need to modify at first. If weightloss isnt achived then I would say cut down on nuts a bit(if you insist on keeping the potatoes).

For some going low fat works just as good as low carbs. I have been reading some interesting stuff about people with low metabolism responding better to low fat diets(fat beeing 10% of total kcal). But its aimed for regular people not bodybuilders.

**Kärnfysikern** · 07-01-2005, 06:11 PM

try to keep kcal below 2000. Im at 1700-1800kcal and I still gain strenght so its not super low(Im only on 250mg test week also). 40grams of fat IF all of it is from good sources(combining flax and oliv oil 50/50 is the best imo) will be enough to keep you healty and it will most probably give you the efa's you need.

Maby repeated myself a bit in these 3 posts lol I am tired as **** and so stuffed with food that its unbelivable. Cheat day

Now Im gonna wake upp my girl and head for beed. Let me know if you try my suggestions.