sep fats and carbs

**yodaddy** · 05-02-2006, 05:30 PM

i kno ur supposed to do this but..............does this mean liek dont have high fat meals with high carb meals or no fats mixed with carbs and vice versa at all.....becuase thast kinda impossible.......

**steve0** · 05-02-2006, 05:46 PM

nothing is impossible.

**novastepp** · 05-02-2006, 05:53 PM

that's what it means. yes. don't mix them.

**Superballer** · 05-02-2006, 06:21 PM

how is it impossible.... you'll get used to it very quick.....

**Superballer** · 05-02-2006, 06:21 PM

actually makes it easier to plan my meals that way... one less thing to think about

**yodaddy** · 05-05-2006, 06:23 AM

agreed with the planning the meal thing...thanks for yo answers holla

**SwoleCat** · 05-05-2006, 07:10 AM

Originally Posted by yodaddy

.becuase thast kinda impossible.......

I've been doing it for 5 years. Not sure what's impossible about it.

~SC~

**steve0** · 05-05-2006, 08:00 AM

the cutting sticky gives a prime example on how to separate them.

**peterj** · 05-05-2006, 08:04 AM

i love the carb and fat seperation idea

still nobody can provide a logical link of why it is bad but it works and it works well

i await the pub med take on it

**novastepp** · 05-05-2006, 08:11 AM

Originally Posted by peterj

i love the carb and fat seperation idea

still nobody can provide a logical link of why it is bad but it works and it works well

i await the pub med take on it

i'm looking forward to see what you can find. thanks for stepping up to do the research

**1buffsob** · 05-05-2006, 08:14 AM

It seems fairly logical to me. Looking at the effects of insulin , fat intake durring a slin spike increases the chance you will store fat. Same reason people who shoot slin will avoid fat at all costs when the slin is still active. Much more important when injecting 10iu's of slin vs eating a snickers bar, but the small slin spike/fat intakes will add up.

1buffsob

**peterj** · 05-05-2006, 08:15 AM

its something i am looking at ATM

thank you you for assigning me the task of finding facts and numbers on the holy grail

i will step up to the challenge

**SwoleCat** · 05-05-2006, 08:16 AM

Yeah, it's pretty straight-forward logically if you know what carbs/fats are and what they do, insulin , etc.

~SC~

**peterj** · 05-05-2006, 08:19 AM

swole

so the three systems do not word independently then?

this theory would also render GI/GL as a theory useless in the diet world? as adding a fat to a carb lowers GI according to most studies

**speak** · 05-05-2006, 08:25 AM

Originally Posted by yodaddy

i kno ur supposed to do this but..............does this mean liek dont have high fat meals with high carb meals or no fats mixed with carbs and vice versa at all.....becuase thast kinda impossible.......

I guess I can kind of see what you are talking about. You do ignore some fat, like the fat in chicken. So you don't seperate ALL fat with ALL carbs. Chicken and rice is a staple. I don't think there is any meat out there without fat so this would be impossible. I don't mix a steak with carbs, or fish with carbs.

Don't know if that's what is confusing you or not.

**Katelette81** · 05-05-2006, 09:57 AM

Okay.. just for clarification, when people say carbs.. are fibrous veggies included in this? Or are we talking sweet potatoes, oats, brown rice etc. ?

Sorry, just want to be sure ...

**yodaddy** · 05-05-2006, 09:59 AM

tahts the answer i wanted with the chicken and rice and thast what i was wondering the fat in chick even though its minutte still is that not seperating enough..thanks speak u got it down my man

**1buffsob** · 05-05-2006, 10:04 AM

Originally Posted by Katelette81

Okay.. just for clarification, when people say carbs.. are fibrous veggies included in this? Or are we talking sweet potatoes, oats, brown rice etc. ?

Sorry, just want to be sure ...

No, fibrous veggies have a no effect on blood sugar level. Feel free to eat them with any meal cept PWO. I don't factor fibrous carbs into my macros as it takes more calories to break down than the calories it provides.

1buffsob

**IBdmfkr** · 05-05-2006, 10:11 AM

I include a small amount of fat in each meal besides Pre/Post/+ PPWO... I take in less than 10-20g of simple sugars/day and I don't believe my insulin levels are spiked enough to matter when taking in things such as Yams/Potatoes/Brown Rice/Wheat Rolled-oats etc... I've tried seperating meals prot/fats prot/carbs and don't like it when bulking. (obviously when restricting calories it would be much easier to follow this eating routine).

Try both and see how your body reacts.. If you are doing a clean bulk and getting 3500-4200calories/day goodluck on spliting meals, just isn't going to happen.

**tretch187** · 05-05-2006, 10:25 AM

One question about this.... a lot of this seems to assume instant digestion.

What about the fact that a fat meal is still digesting 2-3 hours later when you slam some carbs for a workout or vice versa?

So you are saying insulin spikes are instantaneous only with no delayed properties with digestion?

Not saying anything, more asking the question to know.

**IBdmfkr** · 05-05-2006, 10:40 AM

I don't take Fats Pre/Post or PPWO because of that very reason.. fats slow the absorbtion of other nutrients. The three times I listed the body needs immediate absorbtion so I leave out fats. Otherwise I personally don't seem to notice any different, I feel it's more overall macros consumed rather than specific ratios in each meal (to a certain degree).

**steve0** · 05-05-2006, 11:30 AM

Traditionally, when people have discussed the concept of a "balanced diet", they've used some ignorant notion that eating some protein, some carbs, and some fats in each meal would yield "balance". It seems to make sense, right? And it fits in with the prevalent societal notion of moderation in all things.."a little carb, a little fat, a little protein - it's all good".

Beyond the inherent psychological appeal of this type of eating, diets such as the zone diet and the isocaloric diet have come along to confirm the public's suspicion the pesky notion that..."a little carb, a little fat, a little protein - it's all good".

But the problem is that once the body gets a little carb, a little fat, and a little protein, it also gets A LOT of insulin . And when the blood has carbs, fats, proteins, and high insulin concentrations, it certainly isn't all good. In fact, it could be pretty bad.

With this situation there's a triple whammy. The first whammy is that high insulin prevents fat release from fat tissues (and eventual fat burning). Insulin is a storage hormone that over rides many other physiological signals. Just ask someone who has gone into hypoglycemic shock from injected insulin - if they are still living, that is.

The second whammy is that since insulin is a storage hormone, it will nicely shuttle those nutrients into muscle and fat cells and this could also lead to some fat gain (muscle gain too, however).

But the third whammy is that high blood levels of fats could lead to temporary insulin resistance. This means that for each level of nutrients in the blood, more insulin has to be released to transport them into the muscle and fat cells (especially the muscle cells). So if you've got high blood fats, the nutrients that are in the blood are more likely to be shunted into the fat cells and not into the muscle cells.

So at this point, I hope that I've presented a convincing case for the avoidance of eating fats and carbs within the same meal. Remember, however, that eating protein plus carbs is a good choice because although insulin will go up, insulin sensitivity will remain high. This meal will have some nice anabolic effects in muscle tissue.

In addition, eating protein plus fat prevents large insulin rises that inhibit fat breakdown. And since there are no carbs in this meal, even if the fats in the meal cause acute insulin resistance to that meal, there are no carbs present to be driven into fat cells.

We need a new definition of balance. Perhaps by combining both types of meals in a single day, one could promote both muscle anabolism and fat catabolism so that both muscle growth and fat loss could occur during the same training cycle. See my Don't Diet article for more specific recommendations on this.

this is from the Jhon Beardis wedsite..an article by JB about combining fats/carbs

**tretch187** · 05-05-2006, 11:34 AM

Originally Posted by steve0

Traditionally, when people have discussed the concept of a "balanced diet", they've used some ignorant notion that eating some protein, some carbs, and some fats in each meal would yield "balance". It seems to make sense, right? And it fits in with the prevalent societal notion of moderation in all things.."a little carb, a little fat, a little protein - it's all good".

Beyond the inherent psychological appeal of this type of eating, diets such as the zone diet and the isocaloric diet have come along to confirm the public's suspicion the pesky notion that..."a little carb, a little fat, a little protein - it's all good".

But the problem is that once the body gets a little carb, a little fat, and a little protein, it also gets A LOT of insulin . And when the blood has carbs, fats, proteins, and high insulin concentrations, it certainly isn't all good. In fact, it could be pretty bad.

With this situation there's a triple whammy. The first whammy is that high insulin prevents fat release from fat tissues (and eventual fat burning). Insulin is a storage hormone that over rides many other physiological signals. Just ask someone who has gone into hypoglycemic shock from injected insulin - if they are still living, that is.

The second whammy is that since insulin is a storage hormone, it will nicely shuttle those nutrients into muscle and fat cells and this could also lead to some fat gain (muscle gain too, however).

But the third whammy is that high blood levels of fats could lead to temporary insulin resistance. This means that for each level of nutrients in the blood, more insulin has to be released to transport them into the muscle and fat cells (especially the muscle cells). So if you've got high blood fats, the nutrients that are in the blood are more likely to be shunted into the fat cells and not into the muscle cells.

So at this point, I hope that I've presented a convincing case for the avoidance of eating fats and carbs within the same meal. Remember, however, that eating protein plus carbs is a good choice because although insulin will go up, insulin sensitivity will remain high. This meal will have some nice anabolic effects in muscle tissue.

In addition, eating protein plus fat prevents large insulin rises that inhibit fat breakdown. And since there are no carbs in this meal, even if the fats in the meal cause acute insulin resistance to that meal, there are no carbs present to be driven into fat cells.

We need a new definition of balance. Perhaps by combining both types of meals in a single day, one could promote both muscle anabolism and fat catabolism so that both muscle growth and fat loss could occur during the same training cycle. See my Don't Diet article for more specific recommendations on this.

this is from the Jhon Beardis wedsite..an article by JB about combining fats/carbs

One note here. I do think its funny that you chose Berardi. Even he has backed of these claims in his most recent pubs.

**steve0** · 05-05-2006, 11:45 AM

Originally Posted by tretch187

One note here. I do think its funny that you chose Berardi. Even he has backed of these claims in his most recent pubs.

i for one think Berardi is a very knowlagble porfessor when it comes to dieting/meal timming/and ideas of nutrtion, iv been to a few of his simanars and meet him personally when i lived in Austin , he now teach's at UT.

**tretch187** · 05-05-2006, 11:52 AM

Originally Posted by steve0

i for one think Berardi is a very knowlagble porfessor when it comes to dieting/meal timming/and ideas of nutrtion, iv been to a few of his simanars and meet him personally when i lived in Austin , he now teach's at UT.

That is not in question. I agree that he is very knowledgeable. However, it still stands that he has backed off of his seperation ideas.

EDIT: Although, I will add that he has not done so COMPLETELY I believe.

**wolfstriked** · 05-08-2006, 03:35 PM

His backing off from what I ve understood is just that he allows fruits to be added to pro/fat meals.He now says that since fruit causes such a low blood sugar spike that its foolish to not include in the pro/fat meals.So he now recomends pro/fat meals with fibrous veggies and a few of those meals with a small piece of fruit.

**lc1987** · 05-09-2006, 07:24 PM

do you guys count the carbs from natty pb? because it has about 7 gram of carbs and 16 grams of fat so i don't think you could separate that.

**wolfstriked** · 05-09-2006, 07:27 PM

Originally Posted by lc1987

do you guys count the carbs from natty pb? because it has about 7 gram of carbs and 16 grams of fat so i don't think you could separate that.

I think since you subtract the fiber its onl;y 5 gms.Then you must remember that PB is super low on glycemic scale so its ok but a pure oil would be better.then again it also depends on how much hyperinsulemia u have.If I secrete set amount of insulin from 2 tbsp PB you may only secrete half or a quater.

**Katelette81** · 05-09-2006, 07:58 PM

Originally Posted by 1buffsob

No, fibrous veggies have a no effect on blood sugar level. Feel free to eat them with any meal cept PWO. I don't factor fibrous carbs into my macros as it takes more calories to break down than the calories it provides.

1buffsob

OK, in this case I'm way low in carb count/day. One helping is all I'm getting, usually a sweet potatoe or 1/3 cup oatmeal pre-workout. Damn.. I gotta re-work my diet.