help please. spinning my wheels

[DezDiggler]

Long winded. Bear with me.

OK, I've been lurking here for over a month and trying to get my diet in order. But as the title says it seems like I am just spinning my wheels. I took a break from the gym and relaxed on my dieting over my Thanksgiving break. Figured why not since I didn't feel like i was making any strides. So now I'm trying to get back in the swing of things and would like some input.

Stats:
5'11"
205lbs
BF: 20-30% (based on response on this pic http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/i...r/DSCN1209.jpg)

BMR: 2043 based on { 66+(13.7x94kg) + (5x180cm) - (6.8x31) }
TDEE: 3064 based on activity level 1.5
**These calcs are not based on BF%, so not sure how accurate they are**

Goal: For a while I was kinda wishy-washy on my goals. Wasn’t sure if I wanted to bulk or cut. Since I consider myself a “skinny-fat” I’ve decided to go on the cut route. My weight doesn’t bother me so much where my appearance leaves lots to be desired. Working in IT I have allowed myself to become a desk turtle. Its been almost a year that I have been working on trying to change my physique around. When this started I was at 230. I dropped down to my current weight by using atkins, but finally decided that was the wrong way to go. Since incorporating lifting and semi-clean eating I haven’t noticed much change, other than maybe being a little firmer.

Not sure if this will hinder my progress, but my schedule is not very consistent in regards to timing of workouts due to my job. I have been pretty consistent with ensuring I am in the gym 4 days a week for lifting. Was doing daily cardio in the am, but work & vacation got in the way and broke that cycle for these last 2 weeks.

Again I don’t have times posted as I am not good with schedules. I am however pretty good about keeping meals between 2-3 hours apart. For a better idea I usually have my breakfast between 10-12 on weekdays.

Cardio:
45-60min @ 70% of target heart rate

Breakfast: solid
8 egg whites, 1 cup oats (some water, splenda & cinn)
62p - 54c - 5f - 460c

Lunch: varies
1 chicken breast 6-8oz (60p – 0c – 7f – 320c)
- or -
2 cans of chicken (44p – 0c – 4f – 240c)
with
1cup brown rice & 1cup beans (5/44/2/215 + 16/32/2/220 = 21p -75c – 4f – 435c)
-or-
sweet tater 8-10oz (about 150 cal, 40 carb)

Snack1:
1 yogurt w/ almonds (was doing this prior to bed shake)
18p - 10c - 16f - 240c

Lift:
Was on 3 day split, switched to 4 day.

PWO: *can I use this on no lift days?*
ON Whey shake (2 scoops)
48p – 6c – 2f – 240c

Dinner: varies
MEAT
1 chicken breast 6-8oz (60p – 0c – 7f – 320c)
-or-
steak ‘flat iron’ 8-10oz ( 55p – 0c – 26f – 470c)
-or-
93% ground beef 6-8oz (50p – 0c – 12f – 320c)
- with -
Salad w/ 2tbsp evoo & vinegar
- or –
2 cups broccoli (5p – 12c – 0f – 60c)


Snack2:
Uhhhhh, this used to be same as Snack1, looking for replacement.

Bed: solid
ON casein shake (2 scoops)
48p – 6c – 2f – 240c

I haven’t tracked on fitday in about a month, but when I was, I was usually pretty consistent at about 2600 cals.


EFA’s:
I was taking flax oil by the tbsp which was giving me 15g fat per serving. I switched to fish oil gel caps, but it seems like I would have to take those in multiples of 10 to get the same amount of fat/cals. Is that right?

Measurements & Calories:
So do I need to have this thing dialed in to the nearest 10 or 100 cals? Again this is tough for me considering that the nutritional info is usually different by brand.

Needless to say I’m sure there are many holes and lots of work to do. Tired of spinning my wheels and ready to get some traction.

[gbrice75]

Hey Dez, as one newb to another I thought i'd try and offer my help, for what it's worth. I am obviously not an authority as I am here for the same reason you are, but who knows, maybe we can help eachother out. Your post in particular caught my eye as we have very similar stats, and have been working out the same amount of time. I started working out a year ago (literally 12/7/08) and was 255lbs @ 5'11. Today I am 195lbs - not sure of my BFP, but guessing around 20%.

I'm wondering what you're basing your protein figures on? For instance, you eat 8 egg whites for your first meal - where are you getting 62g protein from? Egg whites have about 4 grams of protein per... that's 32g, not 62g. Even if you are counting the protein in the oats (which you shouldn't as it's incomplete protein) it wouldn't make up the 30g deficit.

I have the same issue with your meat figures - as a general rule, 1 oz. of meat (chicken, fish, beef, turkey, etc) contains 6g of protein. 6-8oz chicken breast would be 48g at best, you are citing 60g? I'm just wondering if you're not getting nearly the amount of protein you think?

[DezDiggler]

See thats exactly what I was talking about with the labels thing. Ok for the breakfast I can omit the prot from the oats. The values from the eggs is what was on the carton of the egg whites. Says 5g per large egg. For the chicken not sure if I got those values off of the bag or if from the fitday calculator. Like you said I may want to base my macros off of "rules of thumb" instead of the labels.

Its a nightmare, you should try and see me figure out broccoli into cups.

Thanks for chiming in. For a while I was trolling around looking for someone with a similar composition to leech notes from.

[peachfuzz]

^thats 5 grams per egg, not egg white.

[peachfuzz]

also i think your TDEE is too high. I would reformulate incorporating bodyfat % into the calculation is a must. the katch mcardle formula is what i prefer but even still i think it overestimates caloric need.

have you read this? http://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?t=75729

and your correct about the fish oil. stick with the liquid.

[DezDiggler]

also i think your TDEE is too high. I would reformulate incorporating bodyfat % into the calculation is a must. the katch mcardle formula is what i prefer but even still i think it overestimates caloric need.

have you read this? http://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?t=75729

and your correct about the fish oil. stick with the liquid.

yeah I read that link and reread it prior to this post. I've also seen the Milos videos. Informative, but there were some contradictions in some of what he said and some holes that needed to be filled.

Got these values using a calc based on katch mcardle formula
Estimated Base BMR: 1876 Calories.
Estimated TDEE: 2908 Calories.
Estimated Daily Caloric Need For Weight Loss: 2408 Calories.

Going by those figures 500 daily deficit would put me at about 1lb per week for loss. I read that 2lb per week is safe for fat loss, which I would imagine would put me at about 2000 cal per day to meet that goal. Stop me if i'm wrong.

According to that link I should only count high GI carbs towards my daily caloric intake? So my broccoli, lettuces, sweet taters, beans and oats I would not count toward my carb total? This seems dangerous to me as I would interpret it as letting more high gi carbs in fill the gaps.

Gonna work on another meal plan based on 2000 cal daily goal and will post it up for review.

[POPS]

yeah I read that link and reread it prior to this post. I've also seen the Milos videos. Informative, but there were some contradictions in some of what he said and some holes that needed to be filled.

Got these values using a calc based on katch mcardle formula
Estimated Base BMR: 1876 Calories.
Estimated TDEE: 2908 Calories.
Estimated Daily Caloric Need For Weight Loss: 2408 Calories.

Going by those figures 500 daily deficit would put me at about 1lb per week for loss. I read that 2lb per week is safe for fat loss, which I would imagine would put me at about 2000 cal per day to meet that goal. Stop me if i'm wrong.

According to that link I should only count high GI carbs towards my daily caloric intake? So my broccoli, lettuces, sweet taters, beans and oats I would not count toward my carb total? This seems dangerous to me as I would interpret it as letting more high gi carbs in fill the gaps.

Gonna work on another meal plan based on 2000 cal daily goal and will post it up for review.

Our macros are very close to each other so that makes us in the same boat here.

Im consuming @2100cals/day following a somewhat similiar keto diet for a month or so to see what happens. Also, it might be possible that your cardio needs to be changed up. Personally I use 220 - age x 65%, not 70. I think that is a bit on the high side.

Also, instead of doing l.i. cardio 5 days a week I decided to change to HIIT 3 days and l.i. for 2 days. 60 min pwo started to drag so I need some change.

Just some of my ideas here. Good luck my man!!

[Damienm05]

Cardio:
45-60min @ 70% of target heart rate
Good.


Breakfast: solid
8 egg whites, 1 cup oats (some water, splenda & cinn)
62p - 54c - 5f - 460c Good.

Lunch: varies
1 chicken breast 6-8oz (60p – 0c – 7f – 320c)
- or -
2 cans of chicken (44p – 0c – 4f – 240c)
with
1cup brown rice & 1cup beans (5/44/2/215 + 16/32/2/220 = 21p -75c – 4f – 435c)
-or-
sweet tater 8-10oz (about 150 cal, 40 carb) See below. I would not have carbs here. Move the sweet potato to your next meal, pre-workout. Substitute an EVOO vinaigrette on your meat and 2 cups fibrous veggies. Try to take out the variation and have the sweet potato, not the rice and definitely not the beans as well.

Snack1:
1 yogurt w/ almonds (was doing this prior to bed shake)
18p - 10c - 16f - 240c No yogurt. No dairy. We're not trying to maintain a healthy weight or lose a couple lbs. per month - we want to cut! This needs to be a real meal w/ 40g of slower-digesting protein. If it's not 2-hours after your lunch, make the almonds part of that meal . If this is your actual pre-workout meal - Ideal: Lean steak/sweet potato/fat.

Lift:
Was on 3 day split, switched to 4 day.

PWO: *can I use this on no lift days?* No.You'll be better off with real food. No need for the fast acting whey on those days.
ON Whey shake (2 scoops)
48p – 6c – 2f – 240c Add some chia seeds/flaxseed oil or one tbspn. natural peanut butter. Don't overindulge in fats but we need lots of pro/fat only meals PWO to compensate for lack of carbs.

Dinner: varies
MEAT
1 chicken breast 6-8oz (60p – 0c – 7f – 320c) shoot for 40g of pro, I may be splitting hairs, but protein is calories too and you shouldn't eat too many calories. Same goes for all meals. Eat the chicken, skip the red meat for this meal, see below.
-or-
steak ‘flat iron’ 8-10oz ( 55p – 0c – 26f – 470c)
-or-
93% ground beef 6-8oz (50p – 0c – 12f – 320c)
- with -
Salad w/ 2tbsp evoo & vinegar That's 240 calories. Get used to hot-sauce, horseradish, dijon mustard, lemon juice, etc... we can't have 240 calories via oil in one meal.
- or –
2 cups broccoli (5p – 12c – 0f – 60c) All in all, pretty good meal, even before changes.


Snack2:
Uhhhhh, this used to be same as Snack1, looking for replacement. Your replacement is another real meal. Save one of those flat iron steaks for this meal! w/ the nuts of course. 1 oz. of nuts only (about 20-25 almonds)

Bed: solid
ON casein shake (2 scoops)
48p – 6c – 2f – 240c Very nice.

I haven’t tracked on fitday in about a month, but when I was, I was usually pretty consistent at about 2600 cals.


EFA’s:
I was taking flax oil by the tbsp which was giving me 15g fat per serving. I switched to fish oil gel caps, but it seems like I would have to take those in multiples of 10 to get the same amount of fat/cals. Is that right? Those are a good supplement not food. Pick up a better o*mega 3/6/9 capsule blend at your local health food store and a serving 3 times daily with meals, they'll give you leeway to eat less oil/nuts/etc while having full EFA benefit, as fat is 9 cals per gram and adds up quickly.

Measurements & Calories:
So do I need to have this thing dialed in to the nearest 10 or 100 cals? Again this is tough for me considering that the nutritional info is usually different by brand.

Needless to say I’m sure there are many holes and lots of work to do. Tired of spinning my wheels and ready to get some traction.

Look for the bold, there is your diet. Short on time right now, go in and update the times you have these meals so I can optimize help. It may seem daunting but you need to take the variation out of your diet, including WHEN you eat. If your meals and their planning become a major hobby within your life, you can't fail. Tupperware is your best friend, you can eat anything anywhere. You may notice that I've upped your protein and cals a bit by adding 2 real meals in place of yogurt (sugar) - so when you update the times and macros based on what you have there, we may need to cut a few extra cals somewhere along the way but I think we may be good.

[DezDiggler]

Appreciate the tips there. Tyring to put those in play.

Problem's I've had so far this week is getting in those evening meals. On Mon & Tues even had meal 5 & 6 too close together, but made sure I got them in there to ensure I met my daily caloric needs considering I lifted w/ 30 min of post workout cardio on those days.

Today is an off day with the exception of AM cardio on the elliptical. Got about 45 min in at about 65%.

Working on getting together a detailed log based on the recommendations above, but for now I have some additional questions.

I've omitted the beans. No prob there. too filling and takes up too much space.

1. You say take out the variety. Can I swap broccoli for sweet potatoes from time to time? Either can get boring in repitition, but i dont mind if i can alternate.


2. It was pointed out earlier that I should not count the protein that is listed in my oats for my Meal 1 shake. Broken down that gives me:
8 egg whites = 40g protein (based on 5g pro per white as stated on label)
Should I up this?

3. On off-days like today , its suggested to have a real meal in place of a whey shake. Ok but can I do another shake like in meal 1 with the egg whites and oats or without oats.

4. Weekends. I am just NOT hungry on the weekends. I know its not healthy but in the past i had an appetite for maybe 2 meals. So my whine is about trying to cram in 6 meals. Can i get away with 4 or 5 and adjusting the ratios to compensate for the missed meals? I have a feeling I know what the answer is here.

5. Again, the egg white shakes. I love them! I can knock them down like nothing. Preparations is effortless. Can i have more than one of these daily? Especially on the weekends. If need be to get some fats in, I could probably put in some yolk or use egg beaters. I imagine that the oats would need to be taken out depending on the time of day.


Thanks in advance!!

[DezDiggler]

ok. revised my meal plan and added some times. I'm no fan of this schedule and am working to change it since its consuming my family time, and its a pain eating so late. I can say that this past weekend i stocked up on meat and had a major cooking session on Sunday, which is helping quite a bit with organizing meals. Already a big fan of the Tupperware. The OBC hates it, since they are always busting out of the cabinets.

Age: 31
Height: 5’11”
Weight: 205
Bodyfat Percentage: ? Link above 20-30%
TDEE: 3064
BMR: 2043
Goals: ? (Woud like to get down to 10-15% BF by March or April sooner the better.)

Diet Plan
Meal 1 (12)
8 egg white = _40_g protein, __g carbohydrates, __g Fat
1c oats = _12_g protein, _54_g carbohydrates, _5_g Fat
Total macros = _52_g protein, _54_g carbohydrates, _5_g Fat

Meal 2 (3:00)
6oz ckn breast = _52_g protein, _0_g carbohydrates, _6_g Fat
4oz trky slice = _20_g protein, _5_g carbohydrates, _2_g Fat
1c broccoli = __g protein, _6_g carbohydrates, __g Fat
Total Macros = _72?_g protein, _11_g carbohydrates, _8_g Fat


Meal 3 (6:00)
8oz steak = _44_g protein, __g carbohydrates, _20?_g Fat
sweet potato = _4_g protein, _50_g carbohydrates, __g Fat
Total Macros = _48_g protein, _50_g carbohydrates, _20_g Fat

Workout (8:00)
(Lift w/ 30 on the elliptical at 65-70%)

Meal 4 (PWO) (9:30)
Whey shake = _48_g protein, _6_g carbohydrates, _2_g Fat
.5c oats = _6_g protein, _27_g carbohydrates, _2_g Fat
Total Macros = _54_g protein, _33_g carbohydrates, _4_g Fat

-alt- off day
egg white shake w/ oats
8 egg whites = _40_g protein, __g carbohydrates, __g Fat
.5 c oats = _6_g protein, _27_g carbohydrates, _2_g Fat
Total Macros = _46_g protein, _27_g carbohydrates, _2_g Fat


Meal 5 (11:30)
8oz steak = _44_g protein, __g carbohydrates, _20?_g Fat
Almonds = _6_g protein, _6_g carbohydrates, _15_g Fat
Total Macros = _50_g protein, _6_g carbohydrates, _35_g Fat

Meal 6 (before bed, 1:00)
Casein Shake = _48_g protein, _6_g carbohydrates, _2_g Fat
Total Macros = _48_g protein, _6_g carbohydrates, _2_g Fat

Total Macros for the Whole Day
_318_g protein, _160_g carbohydrates, _74_g Fat, TOTAL CALORIES_2578__, TDEE_3064_


I'm thinking i need to again drop my protein cals some more (as mentioned) and maybe some carbs. But not sure if it matters being that its broccoli, sweet potatoes. My math says 2000 cal/day is right for 2lb per week.

Now i also have 2 cups of coffee w/ a tsp of non dairy creamer and a pak of splenda. Should i be counting those? Also I have been having a cup or two of sugar free apple cider. Box say like 10 cals but 0 carb,fat,sugar. Pretty much empty cals. Is this ok?


Now as far as my gym time, should i be more focused on cardio instead of emphasis on lifting since I am trying to cut/recomp? 90 min or lift and cardio in the evening plus 60min of cardio on some mornings adds up to a butt load of gym time during the day.

[Twist]

D plugged you in for sure. Diet is coming along Great!

yeah I read that link and reread it prior to this post. I've also seen the Milos videos. Informative, but there were some contradictions in some of what he said and some holes that needed to be filled.

Got these values using a calc based on katch mcardle formula
Estimated Base BMR: 1876 Calories.
Estimated TDEE: 2908 Calories.
Estimated Daily Caloric Need For Weight Loss: 2408 Calories.
this has got to be wrong. I would guess your tdee to be 2500-2600, and your target to be 2200 or so for weight loss
Going by those figures 500 daily deficit would put me at about 1lb per week for loss. I read that 2lb per week is safe for fat loss, which I would imagine would put me at about 2000 cal per day to meet that goal. Stop me if i'm wrong.

According to that link I should only count high GI carbs towards my daily caloric intake? So my broccoli, lettuces, sweet taters, beans and oats I would not count toward my carb total? This seems dangerous to me as I would interpret it as letting more high gi carbs in fill the gaps.
that link is outdated. If it goes in your mouth, count the macros.
Gonna work on another meal plan based on 2000 cal daily goal and will post it up for review.

ok

Appreciate the tips there. Tyring to put those in play.

Problem's I've had so far this week is getting in those evening meals. On Mon & Tues even had meal 5 & 6 too close together, but made sure I got them in there to ensure I met my daily caloric needs considering I lifted w/ 30 min of post workout cardio on those days.

Today is an off day with the exception of AM cardio on the elliptical. Got about 45 min in at about 65%.
cut out carbs after this workout
Working on getting together a detailed log based on the recommendations above, but for now I have some additional questions.

I've omitted the beans. No prob there. too filling and takes up too much space.

1. You say take out the variety. Can I swap broccoli for sweet potatoes from time to time? Either can get boring in repitition, but i dont mind if i can alternate.
no, veggies are interchangeable with other green veggies, but not starchy carbs

2. It was pointed out earlier that I should not count the protein that is listed in my oats for my Meal 1 shake. Broken down that gives me:
8 egg whites = 40g protein (based on 5g pro per white as stated on label)
Should I up this?
40g at each meal is fine
3. On off-days like today , its suggested to have a real meal in place of a whey shake. Ok but can I do another shake like in meal 1 with the egg whites and oats or without oats.
egg white shakes are better than whey shakes and can almost count as real food, may need to drop oats depending on the timing
4. Weekends. I am just NOT hungry on the weekends. I know its not healthy but in the past i had an appetite for maybe 2 meals. So my whine is about trying to cram in 6 meals. Can i get away with 4 or 5 and adjusting the ratios to compensate for the missed meals? I have a feeling I know what the answer is here.
are you taking the whole weekend off? IMO there should never be a break of over a day when cutting, cardio on off days is good. Remember you have fat from lack of activity; solution is to be active. However on off days you do not need to consume the same amount of food because your tdee changes (lowers)
5. Again, the egg white shakes. I love them! I can knock them down like nothing. Preparations is effortless. Can i have more than one of these daily? Especially on the weekends. If need be to get some fats in, I could probably put in some yolk or use egg beaters. I imagine that the oats would need to be taken out depending on the time of day.
depends on how it fits your macros. You may be able to sub a shake for a real meal because on off days your macros are lower anyway. If you sit around and do nothing around the house, you still need at 500 calorie deficit. that may mean subtracting 2 whole meals in some situations.

Thanks in advance!!

ok

ok. revised my meal plan and added some times. I'm no fan of this schedule and am working to change it since its consuming my family time, and its a pain eating so late. I can say that this past weekend i stocked up on meat and had a major cooking session on Sunday, which is helping quite a bit with organizing meals. Already a big fan of the Tupperware. The OBCwhat is that? hates it, since they are always busting out of the cabinets.

Age: 31
Height: 5’11”
Weight: 205
Bodyfat Percentage: ? Link above 20-30%
TDEE: 3064
BMR: 2043
Goals: ? (Woud like to get down to 10-15% BF by March or April sooner the better.)
I would like to thank you for doing such a good job with formatting your diet and reposting stats etc.
Diet Plan
Meal 1 (12)
8 egg white = _40_g protein, __g carbohydrates, __g Fat
1c oats = _12_g protein, _54_g carbohydrates, _5_g Fat
Total macros = _52_g protein, _54_g carbohydrates, _5_g Fat
after morning cardio drop the oats and put those macros somewhere else
Meal 2 (3:00)
6oz ckn breast = _52_g protein, _0_g carbohydrates, _6_g Fat
4oz trky slice = _20_g protein, _5_g carbohydrates, _2_g Fat
1c broccoli = __g protein, _6_g carbohydrates, __g Fat
Total Macros = _72?_g protein, _11_g carbohydrates, _8_g Fat
you can do more broccoli if you want and if meal 1 is pcardio, then you can put broccoli there and put oats here... I know it messes up the shake though.

Meal 3 (6:00)
8oz steak = _44_g protein, __g carbohydrates, _20?_g Fat
sweet potato = _4_g protein, _50_g carbohydrates, __g Fat
Total Macros = _48_g protein, _50_g carbohydrates, _20_g Fat
Sweet potato should be pre or pwo carb only (and the best one at that) I am just saying that for your information, I see it is already prewo
Workout (8:00)
(Lift w/ 30 on the elliptical at 65-70%)
this should not be your only form of cardio, best to have a cardio session where you do not replenish carbs after
Meal 4 (PWO) (9:30)
Whey shake = _48_g protein, _6_g carbohydrates, _2_g Fat
.5c oats = _6_g protein, _27_g carbohydrates, _2_g Fat
Total Macros = _54_g protein, _33_g carbohydrates, _4_g Fat
ok
-alt- off day
egg white shake w/ oats
8 egg whites = _40_g protein, __g carbohydrates, __g Fat
.5 c oats = _6_g protein, _27_g carbohydrates, _2_g Fat
Total Macros = _46_g protein, _27_g carbohydrates, _2_g Fat
like I said, maybe drop the oats. also egg white shake is better than whey if you want to use it pwo that is optimal

Meal 5 (11:30)
8oz steak = _44_g protein, __g carbohydrates, _20?_g Fat
Almonds = _6_g protein, _6_g carbohydrates, _15_g Fat
Total Macros = _50_g protein, _6_g carbohydrates, _35_g Fat
good, steak has fat so you can probably drop the almonds.
Meal 6 (before bed, 1:00)
Casein Shake = _48_g protein, _6_g carbohydrates, _2_g Fat
Total Macros = _48_g protein, _6_g carbohydrates, _2_g Fat
ok
Total Macros for the Whole Day
_318_g protein, _160_g carbohydrates, _74_g Fat, TOTAL CALORIES_2578__, TDEE_3064_

50/25/25 split
I'm thinking i need to again drop my protein cals some more (as mentioned) and maybe some carbs. But not sure if it matters being that its broccoli, sweet potatoes. My math says 2000 cal/day is right for 2lb per week.
green veggies have effects that are better than starchy carbs. your split looks ok, I would just adjust it to hit 1900 per day (non-workout) and 2200 on workout days. If you drop something drop the worst things first, so carbs you would drop in this order: oats, sweet potatoes, veggies etc.
Now i also have 2 cups of coffee w/ a tsp of non dairy creamer and a pak of splenda. Should i be counting those? Also I have been having a cup or two of sugar free apple cider. Box say like 10 cals but 0 carb,fat,sugar. Pretty much empty cals. Is this ok?
drop everything but water. IMO, if you use things like caffeine they will add effects that cannot be accurately counted in your tdee (ex. caffeine slows metabolism = less fat loss) your gains will be hindered, all depends on your dedication level. Drop as much unnecessary things as possible

Now as far as my gym time, should i be more focused on cardio instead of emphasis on lifting since I am trying to cut/recomp? 90 min or lift and cardio in the evening plus 60min of cardio on some mornings adds up to a butt load of gym time during the day.
yes, focus more on cardio. that is the most important part. when I cut seriously, I do 20 minutes of weights followed by 1hour 20 minutes of cardio

see above in bold

[mg1228]

most of the experts say start off at 500 below tdee--because fat loss will slow at some point and then u drop the other 500 and when it slows again u add more cardio--most say start at maintenance cals and do cardio then go 500 under when that slows---if u start at 1000 under u really got nowhere to go after that and if u do lower from there ur prob gonna start losing muscle

[mg1228]

didnt see twists post--just do what he says

[mg1228]

nark had me at 2200 on off days and 2700 on wo days--and i was 5'10 177 17-18%bf--and in 90 days i went to 158 and 7-8%bf but i was strict and never cheated--also had a re-feed every 14 days

[Twist]

most of the experts say start off at 500 below tdee--because fat loss will slow at some point and then u drop the other 500 and when it slows again u add more cardio--most say start at maintenance cals and do cardio then go 500 under when that slows---if u start at 1000 under u really got nowhere to go after that and if u do lower from there ur prob gonna start losing muscle

you are for the most part, correct sir. I say drop diet first and make up for the rest in cardio, not do cardio then drop cals. but either way will work.

Best way IMO is to eat at maintenance or above and make up the whole difference in cardio, especially when cutting past 8%bf.

[mg1228]

ur far more knowledgable than me---u must of posted while i was huntin and peckin