Someone explain how this works, if diet is the MOST important.

[sean_holland]

I use to work in a maximum security prison. The kitchen staff never made anything with much protein in it, the canteen would sell snacks to the prisoners with commissary money but only garbage junk food. The food served by the staff was always a mixture of high starch/simple carbs and grease.

No real protein to speak of.
No 6-7 servings a day of food.

No supplements, and No vitamins.

For sure no gear.

Why were some of these guys huge? I mean 'Monsters of the Midway' HUGE. Some were small when the came in and within 2 or 3 years were giant's among men.

If diet is so important, why was this able to happen? Not on a rare basis but about half the people who chose to workout in the yard on a regular basis blew up just like any of us would with all of our "diet critiquing" & "rigorous training routines".

Is this simply a matter of people with genetics to build more muscle easier (ie high testosterone individuals) populating the prison system at a higher rate? Or does diet not really have the effects we all believe it does?

Discuss..

[Noles12]

Genetics play a big role. Also they are getting a lot of calories in those small meals with lots of carbs and fats. Most of the guys you see im sure are looking a lot more bulky rather than really cut.

They put on a lot of mass because some workout hard everyday to pass the time and their bodies respond well

[n00bs]

Diet has all effects... You answered it with your last statement.

Plus consisteny the ned and desire to be big to protect yourself is goodmmotovation.. These guys train and slepp and eat no bills no job just training.

The ones with good genetics will be drawn to training because of "alphamaleness"( i made a word lol).

They probably eat other peoples food as well.. Im sure orAl gear is available .

[sean_holland]

There is no gear, we did cell extractions on a regular basis. Never found any real pills and NEVER found a pin (the only time you would see a makeshift needle was for a tattoo gun). Guys don't get that smuggled in when they can get 5g of H smuggled in and make some serious "prison coin".

It is mostly bulk, never anyone rocking a 8 pack at 230+ but guys pushing 3 or 4 plates a side that are wide as a truck. Maybe 16-18% BF but not fat by any stretch of the imagination.

Just always seemed odd that people in an environment where they are not being fed to grow, are growing like weeds. When you read about diet, you read that it is 80-90% of your results (I'm a firm believer in this). But this setting seems to somewhat contradict that.

[Noles12]

There is no gear, we did cell extractions on a regular basis. Never found any real pills and NEVER found a pin (the only time you would see a makeshift needle was for a tattoo gun). Guys don't get that smuggled in when they can get 5g of H smuggled in and make some serious "prison coin".

It is mostly bulk, never anyone rocking a 8 pack at 230+ but guys pushing 3 or 4 plates a side that are wide as a truck. Maybe 16-18% BF but not fat by any stretch of the imagination.

Just always seemed odd that people in an environment where they are not being fed to grow, are growing like weeds. When you read about diet, you read that it is 80-90% of your results (I'm a firm believer in this). But this setting seems to somewhat contradict that.

See thats what i figured. You dont see guys walking around ripped at 8%. They are all stocky and built because it s a diet that will do that. You mentionined it with the high starch and high fat diet.

I dont think AAS is needed because the guys that really work hard at it are the ones that usually see they can build the muscle easy and have literally nothing else to do

[sean_holland]

See thats what i figured. You dont see guys walking around ripped at 8%. They are all stocky and built because it s a diet that will do that. You mentionined it with the high starch and high fat diet.

I dont think AAS is needed because the guys that really work hard at it are the ones that usually see they can build the muscle easy and have literally nothing else to do

But we all work hard at it as well, you know as well as I do that they are as subject to the downfalls of Over Training like any of us. But I do agree they are not walking around at 8% BF, but I would venture to say only a handful of people on this board are walking around at 8% as well. I'm more interested in how a diet consisting of maybe 100gs of Protein a day can amount to those type of strength and muscle gains. It seems backwards from all the things we are taught about training.

[Noles12]

Genetics is about all i can say. I mean im pretty sure you dont just get bored sitting all day so you slam out a ton of pull ups on whatever thing you can pull yourself up on or doing weighted pushups in a cell with a cellmate sitting on your back just because you have nohing else to do ( i know i dont just do things like this because my time is occupied by other things).

I do agree that it can be discouraging to look at guys live off a diet like that and get big while we put lots of work into our to get the same results. But there are just may other factors that play in

[BJJ]

Genetics play a big role. Also they are getting a lot of calories in those small meals with lots of carbs and fats. Most of the guys you see im sure are looking a lot more bulky rather than really cut.

They put on a lot of mass because some workout hard everyday to pass the time and their bodies respond well

...x2

[gbrice75]

I think you raise an EXCELLENT question that needs to be considered more than just chalking it up to 'genetics'. What are the odds that 1/2 the guys in prison just happen to have superior genetics? Sorry, I don't buy it.

Forget the fact that they don't have 10% BF; the fact that they can grow as big as they do is what's strange. They are not doing ANYTHING right in terms of diet (what we all seem to agree upon on these boards) - no meals every 2-3 hours, very low protein (100g?) and probably not very quality protein to boot, low calories (probably only getting 3 square meals a day, and those meals aren't huge).... so how are these guys becoming beasts?

We also can't chalk it up to having nothing but time to train. Chances are most of these people probably are clueless about proper training and just do whatever they think is right. You would have to imagine most of the are overtraining if anything. Even if they had access to TONS of gear, that's the wrong answer too. Gear without proper nutrition = no gains.

Meanwhile, people like me sit here and labor over diet and training, busting my ass getting up at 4:30am every day, living this rigid lifestyle to make sure I eat at the right times, constantly studying the sport and absorbing knowledge, etc - and I barely grow.

Pissed off? Jealous? Hell yea! I want a damn explanation!!!

[nothingtoitbuttodoit]

i have always thought this, my diet isnt anywhere near perfect and im still doing alright (6" 203lbs and 12% bf) granted i am still quite young.

i think most people say diet is the most important thing because its the hardest thing to get right and makes going to the gym seem harder than it really is.

ill admit diet is important if you have average genetics and are trying to CUT, but tbh ive seen many people have a shit diet and go to the gym and still get big and remain fairly lean.

a few pros on boards i have been on even say the only way to really get bigger is too add more juice, gh etc. as this will have more effect than adding another 100g of protein to your meals.

imo diet is not the most important thing to gain muscle mass, going to the gym is the most important thing because if you take all the gear in the world and eat all the right food if you dont train you wont get bigger.

training, genetics, gear, diet in order of importance imo.

people taking gear are going to chime in now saying that gear doesnt help that much even though they know it does.
i know that when i get my diet in order i will get a bit bigger, but when i get on some gear i will get alot bigger.

[Noles12]

i have always thought this, my diet isnt anywhere near perfect and im still doing alright (6" 203lbs and 12% bf) granted i am still quite young.

i think most people say diet is the most important thing because its the hardest thing to get right and makes going to the gym seem harder than it really is.

ill admit diet is important if you have average genetics and are trying to CUT, but tbh ive seen many people have a shit diet and go to the gym and still get big and remain fairly lean.

a few pros on boards i have been on even say the only way to really get bigger is too add more juice, gh etc. as this will have more effect than adding another 100g of protein to your meals.

imo diet is not the most important thing to gain muscle mass, going to the gym is the most important thing because if you take all the gear in the world and eat all the right food if you dont train you wont get bigger.

training, genetics, gear, diet in order of importance imo.

people taking gear are going to chime in now saying that gear doesnt help that much even though they know it does.
i know that when i get my diet in order i will get a bit bigger, but when i get on some gear i will get alot bigger.

i agree if you take a lot of gear you will get bigger but i disagree on diet. You hear guys complaining all the time about how they didnt grow on cycle because they ate terrible and had no clue. I think diet plays a lot bigger part they you think.

I mean go eat mcdonalds everyday and no quality food and tell me how big you get

[nothingtoitbuttodoit]

yeh but eating mcdonalds everyday is bad for anyone let alone a bodybuilder.

im assuming everyone eats the normal 3 home cooked meals a day.

[Noles12]

trust me i have seen it more than once. guys are on here all the time saying they weighed 155 before their first cycle and were happy to get to 160 after it. That has everything to do with bad diet

[Dan111]

Hey Sean, just curious, what kind of exercises do most of these guys do that you saw? Typically you only see pirsoners do flat bench, dips, pullups, pushups, and maybe some abs. (at least that's all I've ever really seen on shows)

Just makes me wonder too, how they can get so monstrous with doing limited exercises and probably doing the same stuff every day?

[HitIt]

i have a friend who did a year in military prison...he said peanut butter was what everyone would try to get their hands on...even just the oil...

[sean_holland]

I'm glad I was able to spark a good conversation. And just to point out this is not coming from a perspective of jealousy just curiosity, as I'm no small guy myself.

Most of the exercises are Deads, Bench, Military Press, Rows, Cleans, Squats, Dips, Shrugs, Pull ups, Push ups. There is not a wide array of equipment, but a couple benches, a couple racks and free weights, not much in the way of machines and no cables to speak of.

[sean_holland]

i have a friend who did a year in military prison...he said peanut butter was what everyone would try to get their hands on...even just the oil...

They server Peanut Butter at lunch alot of the time, but not a great portion of it. Also Lunch Meat and Cottage Cheese are in the meals. Otherwise its alot of breads, white pastas, butters, cheeses, not much in the way of diets that we follow on a daily basis, and the portions are not very large.

[baseline_9]

Evmen if these guys only eat 3 meals a day, they probably have friends in the kitchen sorting them oit with a little extra.

If all u had 2 do was wake up, eat, sleep, train, eat, sleep, eat, sleep and repeat, you would definatley slow ur metabolic rate so you can probly grow with fewer calories than most.

Good recovery from resting all day.

Pluss, im not racist one bit but a lot of these inmates we are talkint about are probably black guys. Often black guys have better genetics for growth, look at the amount of black guys in sprinting at the olympics, also a high percentage of bb are black.

[Dan111]

Maybe it comes down to that diet isn't as important as what the majority of people here think it is?

Maybe the reason these guys are so big is because they're forced to do the same stuff (forced as in they have NOTHING else to do) over and over and after years and years of this the body probably just adapts to the nutrients it's receiving.

We all have the luxury of variety whereas they don't. So is it possible that their bodies just adapt to their diet and utilize it more efficiently?

Just a thought.

[bigboomer]

I agree with you baseline I thing African americas do have superior genetics..I myself never have been to prison but have down some stretches of county jail time and although some food were high in fat and lots of sodium there was at good amount of protein in each meal. I did see people getting big in there and all there was was a pull up and dip machine..Lots of guys trading foods for peanut butter and sandwich meat. that type of thing

[Times Roman]

Here's my two cents worth..... I did a quick read on the above comments, and didn't spot it, so here goes.....
we all should know by now that muscles grow at rest. After i work out, I'm still pretty active, go to work, chores around the house, and i really don't get much of a chance at true rest until my head hits the pillow.
But after these dudes work out, what do they do? I could be wrong, but I'm guessing they pretty much do nothing but sit around and rest. So I'm going to suggest that the quality of their rest is much more conducive to growth than the type of rest I get.

Anyone consider this?

[baseline_9]

Evmen if these guys only eat 3 meals a day, they probably have friends in the kitchen sorting them oit with a little extra.

If all u had 2 do was wake up, eat, sleep, train, eat, sleep, eat, sleep and repeat, you would definatley slow ur metabolic rate so you can probly grow with fewer calories than most.

Good recovery from resting all day.

Pluss, im not racist one bit but a lot of these inmates we are talkint about are probably black guys. Often black guys have better genetics for growth, look at the amount of black guys in sprinting at the olympics, also a high percentage of bb are black.

Here's my two cents worth..... I did a quick read on the above comments, and didn't spot it, so here goes.....
we all should know by now that muscles grow at rest. After i work out, I'm still pretty active, go to work, chores around the house, and i really don't get much of a chance at true rest until my head hits the pillow.
But after these dudes work out, what do they do? I could be wrong, but I'm guessing they pretty much do nothing but sit around and rest. So I'm going to suggest that the quality of their rest is much more conducive to growth than the type of rest I get.

Anyone consider this?

Think u missed my post. Agree 100%

[Myalansky]

Don`t you think they probably also smuggle some gear inside? ...

[xxxl83]

I promise you there is gear in prisons mostly orals but i've heard of injectables,(i don't care about your cell checks, it usually a C.O. or civilian bringing them in). Alot of places allow protein powders, creatine, etc... just have to order from an approved outside source. Plus like mentioned above there isn't much else to do but lift. Also commissary will sell high protein items like tuna, octopus, squid etc.

The other thing is you will not find any machines out in the yard just good old fashioned free weights!!!!! maybe some should take a cue lol


xxxl83

[Times Roman]

Think u missed my post. Agree 100%

yes, I did miss it.

[shortybrolick]

I promise you there is gear in prisons mostly orals but i've heard of injectables,(i don't care about your cell checks, it usually a C.O. or civilian bringing them in). Alot of places allow protein powders, creatine, etc... just have to order from an approved outside source. Plus like mentioned above there isn't much else to do but lift. Also commissary will sell high protein items like tuna, octopus, squid etc.

The other thing is you will not find any machines out in the yard just good old fashioned free weights!!!!! maybe some should take a cue lol


xxxl83

^^^ this is all true.

Def. all free weights out in the bone yard, besides some pully type machines [lat pulldown, low pulley]..

When I trained in prison thats basicly all my day revolved around. Eat and Rest up for the workout, pound some black coffee and go hit the yard hard...

Think about it your not really burning too many calories in a jail setting.. Also you usually will have the option to get alot of rest/sleep..

[Twist]

1. Jail food is not as bad as far as nutrient wise as most of the food we have available to us. rich in fats and carbs and not too bad with protein (most of us overeat way too much protein)
2. as said above everyone is eating resting and training, a lot of resting. Workout for two hours and sleep for 16 and see how your body reacts
3. Very hard to overtrain when you are resting for most of the day. Plenty of time to repair muscle. Unless you hurt your tendons or cns or ligaments, repair is no problem.
4. No gear is needed to look the way they do. Nobody looks super lean and shredded.
5. Methamphetamine is an easy thing to get in jail. Because there are no studies on this drug I can't say anything with proof; but I can tell you that it does something to your body that makes muscle easy to retain with minimal food and virtually no rest while fat falls off. Seen this with my own eyes.
6. People with genetics are drawn to the weights, and therefore see gains then devote more to it. People who are good at running do track and field etc...
7. Many of those guys were big mother****ers loaded with natty test to begin with, hence the reason they are in jail.
8. There are plenty of small or fat people in prison, in fact most everyone fits in those two categories even when the only thing they have to do is workout eat and sleep. You only notice the 5 out of 100 guys that are big.

As for the steroids is more important than diet thing, give me a break. really? go ahead and get on an air and water diet and tell me how big you get.
YOU CANNOT GET BIG WITHOUT ANY FOOD = DIET = 100%
YOU CANNOT GET BIGGER WITHOUT TRAINING = 100%
YOU CANNOT GET BIGGER WITHOUT REST = 100%
YOU CAN GET BIG WITH NO GEAR = NOT 100%

The only thing you don't need to get bigger than you normally would is gear. To surpass your genetic potential YOU NEED gear, otherwise it wouldn't be your genetic limit.

In order of importance
1. Diet/training/sleeping
2. gear

There is no need for percentages or any of that. there are things that are necessary and things that are not. this is like saying which is more important food water or air? All of them are equally important because without one of them you die.

[terraj]

testosterone is a steroid hormone which is both present in male and female species. It plays a vital role in the development of reproductive tissues especially in the male species and also play a key role in building strength and muscles. Psychologist found that a man who has criminal record or committed crimes has the one with high level of testosterone compared to ordinary individuals. In a low standing heart rates, study shows that compared to an ordinary persons, criminals has lower pulse rate.

http://www.articlesbase.com/mental-health-articles/the-criminal-minds-2497501.html#ixzz0tRMTcaOm[/url]
Under Creative Commons License: Attribution

[n00bs]

testosterone is a steroid hormone which is both present in male and female species. It plays a vital role in the development of reproductive tissues especially in the male species and also play a key role in building strength and muscles. Psychologist found that a man who has criminal record or committed crimes has the one with high level of testosterone compared to ordinary individuals. In a low standing heart rates, study shows that compared to an ordinary persons, criminals has lower pulse rate.

http://www.articlesbase.com/mental-health-articles/the-criminal-minds-2497501.html#ixzz0tRMTcaOm[/url]
Under Creative Commons License: Attribution

Interesting but doesnt apply to all, i Have done my fair share of shit im not proud of i think we all have/

Until recently i have just found to have under lab levels of testosterone ...

As for gear in prison i think there was another thread were people were sharing stories somewhere on here recently...

If not im sure the bigger guys can get more food as "payments" perhaps

"you gon eat yo cornbread? "

[Noles12]

Interesting but doesnt apply to all, i Have done my fair share of shit im not proud of i think we all have/

Until recently i have just found to have under lab levels of testosterone ...

As for gear in prison i think there was another thread were people were sharing stories somewhere on here recently...

If not im sure the bigger guys can get more food as "payments" perhaps

"you gon eat yo cornbread? "

Of course it doesnt apply to all but neither does being big in prison. Not every guy there is huge. Some are and i think test levels may be a direct correlation

[BJJ]

Of course it doesnt apply to all but neither does being big in prison. Not every guy there is huge. Some are and i think test levels may be a direct correlation

[terraj]

Of course it doesnt apply to all but neither does being big in prison. Not every guy there is huge. Some are and i think test levels may be a direct correlation

X2 thanks^^

Been a few studies confirming that correlation.

[xxxl83]

You guys crack me up lol So high test levels = jail? Does it have to be natural production? what about exogenous? that would make every AAS user a candidate. OK, OK I'm done playin devils advocate.

Seriously though about 70%-80% of inmates at any given facility is there for DRUG related charges NOT violent crimes, it's the ridiculous drug laws in this country that have overcrowded the jails.
So that makes it just as likely to say, high test levels will make you a drug dealer or user.
High testosterone levels have no direct correlation one way or the other, and as for the study......I don't care it could be because the dudes locked down are taking better care of themselves than civilians out drinking partying, eating fast food etc..... Not tryin to stir shit just applying a little logic.

Just my .02

xxxl83

[n00bs]

You guys crack me up lol So high test levels = jail? Does it have to be natural production? what about exogenous? that would make every AAS user a candidate. OK, OK I'm done playin devils advocate.

Seriously though about 70%-80% of inmates at any given facility is there for DRUG related charges NOT violent crimes, it's the ridiculous drug laws in this country that have overcrowded the jails.
So that makes it just as likely to say, high test levels will make you a drug dealer or user.
High testosterone levels have no direct correlation one way or the other, and as for the study......I don't care it could be because the dudes locked down are taking better care of themselves than civilians out drinking partying, eating fast food etc..... Not tryin to stir shit just applying a little logic.

Just my .02

xxxl83

No because anyone who has studied any sort oh phsycology / physiology of the mind can tell you of testosterones effects on agression...

You can say most people are in jail because of retarded drug laws... Im happy for someone selling heroin/crack to kids to go to jail. But that is a different story...

The logic is we know testosteorne effects rationality aggression ect... Someone beeps there horn at a need in traffic nothing is going to come of it.. Someone beeps there horn at a " high test alphamale" then there is going to be a punchon..

Thats the logic.

[xxxl83]

OK so then by default....... High test levels = violence and jail, I understand now please forgive my ignorance.

xxxl83

[n00bs]

OK so then by default....... High test levels = violence and jail, I understand now please forgive my ignorance.

xxxl83

You cant be so black and white about things, dont be ignorant and act like a child. Where didi say if you have high testosterone your going to jail? Show me and ill buy you a cookie..

[xxxl83]

Oh sorry did i just beep my horn at a hight testosterone laden alpha male? Pleas don't punch me.
If was said directly it wouldn't have been by "default".
But That is exactly what these so called studies are implying. Obviously i'm well aware that is not true, I'm just playing to "the other side of the coin". I know things aren't black and white that was my point about it.

Relax and be easy it's just a message board and we can agree to disagree on things. No need to call names and offer cookies. lol

xxxl83

[OH REALLY]

jail mates are on aas... they get dbol and other orals smuggled inside the prison all the time...

[sean_holland]

I love that my question has raised such a good debate about this. I love everyone's posts very interesting insight into this topic.

I really do have a tough time believing that there is a rampant amount of AAS inside of prison walls. I was there for a long enough period of time and spoke to people in the 'know' about gear who had worked there for 20+ years. I know the prisoners always think they are pulling ones over on the CO's but we have a good grasp on whats going on. Not much in the way of AAS problem. Like I said near the top, you might get the odd orals, but as far as oil and rigs...never.

I don't work in America, I work in Canada and I would say at least 50% of the jail population where I was (Maximum Security Jail Fort Saskatchewan, Alberta) was violent offenders. Our drug laws in Canada, especially in relation to small amount or marijuana in general are much more Pro-Treatment/House Arrest/Probation, unless you are in the high distribution/manufacturing end of the drug trade.

Like was said above only about 5-8 out of 100 were in some distinguishable shape, that would be impressive to the people on this board, and I would assume maybe half of those were like that pre-jail sentence. But the upkeep of that body physique without the diet we so stress over seems still to defy our dietary practices.

Also there are jobs in Jail, not to mention school, etc. These guy are not on 23hr a day lock down. This is not the Super Max in Florance, Colorado and its not Administrative Segregation. I'm speaking of General Pop, Maximum Security, where prisoners have yard privileges but also have other jobs/responsibilities to keep those privileges.

[sean_holland]

jail mates are on aas... they get dbol and other orals smuggled inside the prison all the time...

I hate to call bull shit on this.....but like I said I've lived my daily life on the front lines in this setting so unless you could show me something to back that blanket statement up...I think my long term first hand experience should stand for something in this debate.

I've found more Heroin, Cocaine, Methamphetamine, etc etc in one week then AAS in my whole time in the prison. And pills stand out fairly good. And The latter are worth a lot more, to a larger number of the inmates so you would assume they would be hidden the best out of any contraband.