Trying to cut without losing muscle mass!

[smashingbox]

First up let me apologise for the length of this post, just want to paint an accurate picture. Been reading the forums for a while but this is my first post, other than intro in new members area. I am considering running a cycle in about 6-12 months, but want to master cutting/cleaner bulking before hand.

Stats:
Age 26
Height 5'11
Weight 175 (80kg)
Bf% Not sure, waiting on bf calipers to arrive
Cycle history None, yet.
Years training 2.5
Starting weight: 132lbs (60kg)

So I am/was an extreme ectomorph, found it very hard to gain weight. I climbed pretty quickly by 20lbs, then plateaued at around 155lb. Took me ages but finally made about 168lbs, then decided to try and cut because I had gained some fat... as soon as I cleaned up my diet and cut out some carbs.... I plummeted back down to 155lbs in no time. I then tried clean bulking for 3 months and didnt gain a thing, despite eating truckloads of clean carbs. Finally out of frustration I decided to dirty bulk... then got to where I am now, 175 with some fat (waiting on body calipers to measure). So now I have cleaned up my diet, but still worried to cut too much in fear of losing all the weight I have gained all over again.

So I havent counted macros, or measured serves/portions, and also I don't eat the same thing every day, so here is an outline of what I would eat in a typical day, with some examples of a few things I rotate or eat depending on how I feel.

Upon waking : Shake
50-60g WPI; ~20-30g of oats; 300ml Low fat milk

10am: 2 poached eggs, cup of broccoli, and tin (85g dry weight) red salmon (salt reduced nothing added)

or: Omelette – 6 eggs (only use 3 yolks); cherry tomatoes; capsicum (green pepper); 100g smoked salmon; basil/olive oil

midday: meal – usually a curry of some sort, incl. potatoes, about a cup of white rice (changing to brown) breast chicken, curry sauce (just use a jar).

Or wholemeal roll, lots of roast beef, tomato, and a couple of heaping spoons of cottage cheese

**with lunch, my one vice: a can of coke.

3pm: another snack, usually a wholemeal english muffin with cottage cheese, maybe a can of salmon, broccoli

5-6pm: shake 50-60g WPI protein; 20-30g oats

7pm Workout – 1 hour

PWO: shake 50-60g WPI protein; 30g maltodextrin

45 mins after PWO (around 9:30pm) shake: dinner - varies a lot, always try to include a lean meat (steak/breast chicken), then either pasta, mashed potato, or rice; and maybe some veggies.

10:30 bed

I am starting to see some results with this, my abs are coming through, and I have just started doing some cardio twice a week to try to speed things up. I am after advice on how I can tweak my routine so that I can safely lose some fat without losing much of my hard earned muscle (cause it doesn't come easily to me!!). Ideally I would like to remain at 80kg, and just modify my body composition - lose a little fat and gain a little muscle.

I will try to get some pics up soon, maybe you guys can give me an idea of where abouts my bf % might be. Thanks for taking the time to read, all advice appreciated!

Scott

[tbody66]

Sounds to me like you could put some muscle on, your frame should be able to handle it. I am a very hard gainer as well, but have done well adding quality size over the years. I would like to see your complete workout, sets/reps/poundages, after you post the pics. We will be able to better recommend how far you are from being in the best shape to maximize your cycle.

[gbrice75]

First up let me apologise for the length of this post, just want to paint an accurate picture. Been reading the forums for a while but this is my first post, other than intro in new members area. I am considering running a cycle in about 6-12 months, but want to master cutting/cleaner bulking before hand.

Stats:
Age 26
Height 5'11
Weight 175 (80kg)
Bf% Not sure, waiting on bf calipers to arrive
Cycle history None, yet.
Years training 2.5
Starting weight: 132lbs (60kg)

So I am/was an extreme ectomorph, found it very hard to gain weight. I climbed pretty quickly by 20lbs, then plateaued at around 155lb. Took me ages but finally made about 168lbs, then decided to try and cut because I had gained some fat... as soon as I cleaned up my diet and cut out some carbs.... I plummeted back down to 155lbs in no time. I then tried clean bulking for 3 months and didnt gain a thing, despite eating truckloads of clean carbs. Finally out of frustration I decided to dirty bulk... then got to where I am now, 175 with some fat (waiting on body calipers to measure). So now I have cleaned up my diet, but still worried to cut too much in fear of losing all the weight I have gained all over again.

Congrats on the gains thus far, that's big progress in 2.5 years

So I havent counted macros, or measured serves/portions, and also I don't eat the same thing every day, so here is an outline of what I would eat in a typical day, with some examples of a few things I rotate or eat depending on how I feel.

If you want to take this seriously, then you need to start doing both - counting macros is a given - you can't do this right without it. You also need a consistent diet; this doesn't mean it has to be the EXACT same thing every day, but macros need to be very close. i.e. you can have 4oz of chicken instead of fish, or green beans instead of broccoli - that kind of thing

Upon waking : Shake
50-60g WPI; ~20-30g of oats; 300ml Low fat milk

Depending on how your body handles dairy, you might want to consider dropping the milk - AT LEAST make it skim

10am: 2 poached eggs, cup of broccoli, and tin (85g dry weight) red salmon (salt reduced nothing added)

I wouldn't do the salmon here, too much fat especially with the eggs. How about 2 whole eggs, 4-6 whites, and another 1/2 cup oats and the broccoli?

or: Omelette – 6 eggs (only use 3 yolks); cherry tomatoes; capsicum (green pepper); 100g smoked salmon; basil/olive oil

Pretty much same suggestion as above

midday: meal – usually a curry of some sort, incl. potatoes, about a cup of white rice (changing to brown) breast chicken, curry sauce (just use a jar).

Careful with the sauces. Usually loaded with sugar, preservatives, and sodium. Good idea changing to brown rice

Or wholemeal roll, lots of roast beef, tomato, and a couple of heaping spoons of cottage cheese

The roll is probably crap - go for a better carb source, like sweet potato or lentils/beans, quinoa, etc

**with lunch, my one vice: a can of coke.

No way. Change to diet. You'll learn to deal with the taste. This high fructose corn syrup garbage in a single can is enough to ruin a diet

3pm: another snack, usually a wholemeal english muffin with cottage cheese, maybe a can of salmon, broccoli

Not a great meal, too random. Lean protein + complex carb OR healthy fat. I'd say drop the muffin and just do the salmon and broccoli, keep the cottage cheese if you want

5-6pm: shake 50-60g WPI protein; 20-30g oats

Ok, although i'd prefer to see real food here for your protein source

7pm Workout – 1 hour

PWO: shake 50-60g WPI protein; 30g maltodextrin

Drop the maltodextrin ASAP - do oats instead. It's already late for carbs, although I'm a firm believer in carbs PWO. However, straight sugar is NOT a good idea (ever IMO), especially this late.

45 mins after PWO (around 9:30pm) shake: dinner - varies a lot, always try to include a lean meat (steak/breast chicken), then either pasta, mashed potato, or rice; and maybe some veggies.

I'd make this a protein/fat meal. Too late for carbs here if you're trying to reduce bodyfat. Add a tbsp of olive oil to the veggies

10:30 bed

How about a serving of cottage cheese or a casein shake before bed?

I am starting to see some results with this, my abs are coming through, and I have just started doing some cardio twice a week to try to speed things up. I am after advice on how I can tweak my routine so that I can safely lose some fat without losing much of my hard earned muscle (cause it doesn't come easily to me!!). Ideally I would like to remain at 80kg, and just modify my body composition - lose a little fat and gain a little muscle.

You need to figure out how much to eat firstly. Once we have an idea of your bodyfat, we can come up with a ballpark figure. Once we know that number, I would have you eat at maintenance, or even a bit above (yes, eat above maintenance to cut), but you need to seriously start doing cardio. 2 times a week? Gimme a break, try at least 5x a week. I'm doing 5x a week, 2x/day currently in an effort to hit 10%.

I will try to get some pics up soon, maybe you guys can give me an idea of where abouts my bf % might be. Thanks for taking the time to read, all advice appreciated!

Definitely, we'll be able to give a decent estimate based on pics

Scott

Bold comments above

[smashingbox]

Thanks for the responses guys, I will calculate all my macros and post again tonight. In the mean time here is my routine.

Routine

Sunday – Chest/Abs
-Flat Bench Press can do 80kg (175lb) x 5 reps, 4 sets (last 2 sets usually drop weight slightly to maintain reps.
-Incline DB Press can do 26kg (58lb) each side on my own, or 28kg (62lb) with spotter. 6-8 reps, 3-4 sets.
Dips, bodyweight plus 5-10kg (11-22lb), 6-8 reps, 3 sets.
-Flyes/cable crossovers, not sure on weight, whatever I can do for 8-12 reps, 3 sets.

-Various weighted ab/core exercises, mix it up a lot here, usually do 3 exercises, 3 sets of each, 10-14 reps.

Monday – Back/Cardio
-Chin ups/Pull ups, body weight plus 5kg (11lb), I vary the grip position wide/narrow, suppinated/pronated, etc. 6 reps, 3-4 sets. (usually for the last set I remove added weight).
-Bent over BB rows (don’t like this exercise, but try to get it right) 70kg (154lb) 8-10 reps, 3-4 sets. I think my form here is sloppy, and I don’t get quite parallel.
-DB rows (favourite back exercise) 34-36kg each arm (75-80lb) 8 reps, 4 sets.
-1 of either machine row, iso-lateral hammer strength row, or lat pull down machine. As heavy as possible for 8-10 reps, 3 sets.

-10-15 mins cardio, keeping heart rate average at 150bpm, or 77% of theoretical max heart rate.

Tuesday – Off

Wednesday – Shoulders/Traps/Cardio
-Bent arm lateral raise 14kg (30lbs) DBs 10-12 reps, 3 sets.
-Seated DB press 26-28kg (58-62lbs) each arm, 6-8 reps, 3-4 sets.
-Behind the head military press, seated, smith machine, 30kg total, 66lbs 6-8 reps, 3-4 sets.
-Rear delt isolation (backwards on pec-deck flye machine) – heavy as I can do for 8-10 reps, 3 sets.

-2-3 traps exercises, DB shrugs, BB shrugs, upright rows, etc. 3 sets of each, 10 reps. Not big on traps, don’t want them particularly big, and they get plenty of work with back.

-10-15 mins cardio, keeping heart rate average at 150bpm, or 77% of theoretical max heart rate.

Thursday – Arms/Abs
-EZ bar preacher curls (very narrow grip) 3 sets, 8-10 reps, 38kg (15kg each side plus bar) 84lbs, then drop to 33kg or 73lbs.
-Seated DB curls 12kg (27lbs) each side, 3 sets 8-10 reps. (usually I start off in hammer curl position, then rotate wrist during the movement and curl the DBs inwards).
-BB wide grip curls, 25kg (55lbs), 8-10 reps, 3 sets.

-EZ bar (normal grip) skull crushers, 33kg (73lbs), super-setted with close grip bench presses with same weight. I do 6-8 reps of skull crushers, then use the same bar/weight straight into close grip bench press until failure. 3 sets.
-EZ bar (very narrow grip) behind the head seated tricep extensions, 73lbs, ~8reps, 3 sets.
-1 of either rope tricep pull downs, DB tricep extensions (lying on back each arm individually). 8-10 reps, 3 sets.

-Various weighted ab/core exercises, mix it up a lot here, usually do 3 exercises, 3 sets of each, 10-14 reps.

Friday – Legs
-Squats, 100kg (220lbs), 8 reps, 3 sets. – dropping to 90kg (200lbs) to increase ROM, improve form and because my left leg is bigger than my right, need to even them up before going any higher.
-Dead-lifts (not stiff legged), 6-8 reps, 3 sets, 1st working set 110kg (240lbs), then 100kg (220lbs), then 90kg (200lbs)
-Leg Press, 210kg (460lbs), 8 reps, 3 sets
-Usually do 1 more leg exercise for 3 sets, similar rep range, maybe individual leg press, seated machine leg extension, hamstring extensions etc.
(note: thinking about backing off on legs, my ass and legs are huge, and seem to have responded the most to training… esp my ass)

Sat - Off

I always go to failure on every working set, I try to take 1-2 mins rest between sets, and get out of the gym within 1 hour of my first working set (not including warm up). This routine is fairly new for me, I was following Max OT previously during my bulk, but switched to this because it seems more conducive to fat loss.

As for cardio, 2 times per week is not me being slack, it is me being worried to do too much and burn up my muscles for energy. As I said, last time I tried to cut I ended up losing everything I had gained, and wasted 3-6 months gaining it/losing it/gaining it back again… killed my motivation. Should I try moving cardio to non-workout days? Currently I do it after workouts because I thought it would be more effective at burning fat?

Thanks again!

[tbody66]

Okay, I don't like much about the above workout, some glaring things are

#1-Dead-lifts (not stiff legged), 6-8 reps, 3 sets, 1st working set 110kg (240lbs), then 100kg (220lbs), then 90kg (200lbs), This is an all-back exercise, why is it on leg day???? This absolutely should be stiff-legged, nothing, and I mean NOTHING works the hamstrings like properly performed stiff legged dead lifts!

#2- absolutely put cardio on non-lifting days

#3- unless you are over 20% bf you should focus strictly on mass, you are way too small to cut if you want to be a lifter, if you add muscle you will burn fat, you can do this clean, but you need to switch to a mass program

Post those pics so I can see for myself the things you say concern you and make suggestions to correct them.

[smashingbox]

Okay, I had deadlifts on back day, but moved them because my hamstrings were too sore to do legs on leg days. Maybe what I do are considered stiff legged, I dont lock out my knees, but i don't squat right down either... I bend down, grab the bar, straighten my back with my legs as straight as they can be while I am bent over, and then drive through my heels and lift the weight initially with my legs and then straighten my torso. I am always sore in my hamstrings afterwards, and my glutes as well... mind you I also get a small amount of DOMS in my middle back after legs workouts, but nothing drastic. Feels like it works my entire back from traps down to the back of my knees...?

Will move cardio to non-lifting days. Also I have been a little more lenient with myself letting my workouts get to over an hour sometimes, is this ok while cutting? When I was bulking I had to kick myself out of the gym when it got to 1 hour.

What else about the workout don't you like? I will post a brief version of my bulking split and see if that it any better.

I am getting pics on Friday, I don't have a decent sized mirror so cant take myself - sister is coming over on Friday to sort it out.

[smashingbox]

Before I started gym:

[smashingbox]

Before I started gym:

[smashingbox]

+2years:

[Damienm05]

Damn, you were like a stick figure. Well done to get an overall exponentially thicker body without too much fat. ~ 18% body fat.

[smashingbox]

You're not wrong, that photo I had just been through a bad break up and was prob around 55kg... or 120lbs!! It took a lot of hard work and ridiculous eating to get this far, but I know I have a long way to go. Now I want to build a quality physique, not looking to get too much bigger, maybe another 15lbs if I can and then lean out to look ripped. I was thinking the best way to acheive that might be to cut down to low bf% and then do a single cycle, test prop and maybe something else... with the right training and diet that should give me the desired effect?

[smashingbox]

Bump for more estimates on bf%

[Damienm05]

No need to jump into a cycle. Lean out to around 12% or lower, keep a clean "lean bulk" type diet from there and give it at least 12-weeks or so before you jump into a cycle. You've come a good ways but you can achieve a lot naturally. The first step is getting lean though.

[smashingbox]

Sorry I should have said: I am thinking 6-12 months before I cycle. Is that a fair time frame for me to acheive what you say? I have had no luck in the past with clean bulking, tried for 3 months eating really well... gained nothing, to put on weight you wouldn't beleive what I was eating, amongst other things a typical day would include 2 KFC burgers for lunch (did this everyday for weeks), pizza for dinner, 2 shakes with 60g straight maltodextrin and 30g whey, and immediately before bed shake: light milk, 3 scoops of ice cream, 60g oats, 2 heaping spoons of peanut butter, 10g glutamine, 30-40g casein/whey...

Anyways, I realise that is not a good approach and I want to be lean, I think it will be tough to eat enough good clean food to keep my muscle gains but I am here to try.

[gbrice75]

Great job bro, plenty of quality mass added! Now you just need to reduce bodyfat and overall thickness has to be brought up.

I'm going with 16-17%

[tbody66]

Damn, you were like a stick figure. Well done to get an overall exponentially thicker body without too much fat. ~ 18% body fat.

I just thought you had come across an actual picture of Calstate23 here.

Great job bro, plenty of quality mass added! Now you just need to reduce bodyfat and overall thickness has to be brought up.

I'm going with 16-17%

I agree with this and would tell you to not focus on cutting at all. If you add twenty pounds of muscle you will be at a much better bf% even if you don't lose any fat, IMO.

[smashingbox]

Thanks guys, I am starting think maybe just switching to a clean bulk is the way to go. I have signed up for the remote trainer thing being run on here, so see what I can do. Once I have my bf a little lower and have done sufficient research I will look to cycle. If I can gain 20lbs naturally then I probably wouldn't worry about a cycle.

tbody66 - just read through your thread in this section - very impressive man!

I will go through my macros/calories asap and post back the numbers.

[tbody66]

Thanks guys, I am starting think maybe just switching to a clean bulk is the way to go. I have signed up for the remote trainer thing being run on here, so see what I can do. Once I have my bf a little lower and have done sufficient research I will look to cycle. If I can gain 20lbs naturally then I probably wouldn't worry about a cycle.

tbody66 - just read through your thread in this section - very impressive man!

I will go through my macros/calories asap and post back the numbers.

Thank you, sir. I am expecting some good things from you and am very excited that you joined the remote trainer/physique transformation challange.