Elapsed time between training and sleeping - impact??

[gbrice75]

This is a topic that's of recent curiosity to me since I'm doing a 'test run' with a new training/daily schedule.

I'm interested in hearing your opinions (facts/research would be better) on the possible benefits/negatives of going to bed for the night shortly after you train. Let me explain:

My routine for the past 2+ years had me up at 4:30am, training at 5:30am until 6:30am and then going to bed around 10pm. That means 15.5 hours goes by before I actually go to sleep and allow my body to repair and build new tissue.

> my PWO meal is around 8am (after training and cardio) - being a very important meal to 'kickstart' recovery (which doesn't efficiently happen for another 14 hours), it seems like this isn't ideal or optimal at all

> I have to go through an entire day of 'living' - work, etc. which most of my meals are fueling

My new routine has me working out at 6pm until 7pm, and still going to bed around 10pm. Now my PWO meal is coming about 2 hours before bed, and true repair/growth (while we sleep) is a mere 3 hours after my workout, putting all subsequent meals to much more efficient use IMO.

I wonder if I have been shortchanging myself somewhat with early morning training. Is it just a coincidence that most of the guys in the evening are big, and most in the early morning look like me? Maybe.

I'm hoping I can provide some firsthand feedback as I am going to try and maintain this new schedule for the next 6 weeks or so. In the meantime, i'd love to hear what you have.

Sorry if this is convoluted; i'll try and explain it better, let me know.

[Turkish Juicer]

What does your PWO meal that you eat 2 hours before going to bed look like?

[gbrice75]

What does your PWO meal that you eat 2 hours before going to bed look like?

Well, my PWO meal is 2 scoops of Myofusion w/ 1/2 cup oats (don't want too many carbs here as i'm cutting).

30 minutes later, i'm eating a PPWO meal - 4oz white fish w/ spinach and a tsp of EVOO, OR 1 whole omega3 egg + 1/2 cup egg whites w/ spinach.

Right before bed, I do either a casein shake (1 scoop) or 6oz 1% milkfat no-salt added cottage cheese. So, i'm getting a good deal of nutrition during my PWO / before bed window.

[scotty51312]

When i work out within 4 or 5 hours of bedtime, I'm to jacked to sleep. I know that excersise produces endorphines in your brain, Does a late workout affect your sleep?

[Turkish Juicer]

Well, my PWO meal is 2 scoops of Myofusion w/ 1/2 cup oats (don't want too many carbs here as i'm cutting).

30 minutes later, i'm eating a PPWO meal - 4oz white fish w/ spinach and a tsp of EVOO, OR 1 whole omega3 egg + 1/2 cup egg whites w/ spinach.

Right before bed, I do either a casein shake (1 scoop) or 6oz 1% milkfat no-salt added cottage cheese. So, i'm getting a good deal of nutrition during my PWO / before bed window.

That is indeed a good PWO nutrition altogether, congrats.

I think your body is going to suck up all those nutritions after an intense workout and considering the fact that there is absolutely nothing in there to raise your blood sugar to a considerable extent before you go to bed means a greater secretion of GH while sleeping also with the help of both casein and cottage cheese.

I seriously think with this new system, you will turn out to be a bigger looking BB without incremented BF and most likely with better sleep, followed by better mood, higher energy levels overall and maybe even better performance at the gym. I am generally not a very optimistic person FYI, but I do honestly think you will benefit a whole a lot more with this schedule from a nutrition point of view.

Good luck and keep us informed.

[gbrice75]

When i work out within 4 or 5 hours of bedtime, I'm to jacked to sleep. I know that excersise produces endorphines in your brain, Does a late workout affect your sleep?

Well, I only had 2 days to try it, and yes - I couldn't sleep on either of them lol! I attributed this to the overall change in my routine though... hoping it passes or this will not work out for me. =(

That is indeed a good PWO nutrition altogether, congrats.

I think your body is going to suck up all those nutritions after an intense workout and considering the fact that there is absolutely nothing in there to raise your blood sugar to a considerable extent before you go to bed means a greater secretion of GH while sleeping also with the help of both casein and cottage cheese.

I seriously think with this new system, you will turn out to be a bigger looking BB without incremented BF and most likely with better sleep, followed by better mood, higher energy levels overall and maybe even better performance at the gym. I am generally not a very optimistic person FYI, but I do honestly think you will benefit a whole a lot more with this schedule from a nutrition point of view.

Good luck and keep us informed.

Thank you bro, I appreciate your feedback! I know you're new but i've seen some of your posts and they are intelligent and informative. Keep it up!

Bump for more feedback.

[cmdace18]

hey gbrice - i don't have the science to back you up, but you've seen my food log. i do fasted cardio in the am (6 or 7am) before work. i then work a job until 6ish, and hit the gym at 7 until 8 or 830pm. my postworkout shake is 830pm, dinner sometimes not until 9pm, and i hit the sack at 1030/11pm.

anyways, i've lost 15.5 lbs doin this routine. i don't think the timing of the workouts in proximity to sleep has a MAJOR effect on the body. as long as the macro's are on point, 1 or 2 sessions of working out are done, i think goals can be met (bulk or cut). again, nothing scientific to back it up, just my personal experience.

i too thought about your topic, and the thought of specifically having carbs (oats/sweet potato) SO close to my bedtime that i didn't think it would work. i agree with the poster above that your body sucks in those nutrients since you have your counts down to a T; i dont think sleeping has a negative impact on NOT utilizing the food as intended.

[gbrice75]

hey gbrice - i don't have the science to back you up, but you've seen my food log. i do fasted cardio in the am (6 or 7am) before work. i then work a job until 6ish, and hit the gym at 7 until 8 or 830pm. my postworkout shake is 830pm, dinner sometimes not until 9pm, and i hit the sack at 1030/11pm.

anyways, i've lost 15.5 lbs doin this routine. i don't think the timing of the workouts in proximity to sleep has a MAJOR effect on the body. as long as the macro's are on point, 1 or 2 sessions of working out are done, i think goals can be met (bulk or cut). again, nothing scientific to back it up, just my personal experience.

i too thought about your topic, and the thought of specifically having carbs (oats/sweet potato) SO close to my bedtime that i didn't think it would work. i agree with the poster above that your body sucks in those nutrients since you have your counts down to a T; i dont think sleeping has a negative impact on NOT utilizing the food as intended.

Thanks for the input bro. I just realized I wasn't specific when I talked about this impacting progress. What I meant was do you think training closer to bedtime is better for building muscle? Are nutrients used more efficiently due to meal timing and state of the body (sleep) in relation to that timing?

[Twist]

From personal experience I suffer greatly during am workouts. Today I worked out after only one meal and it was a crappy workout. I just don't think that working out when blood glycogen is low is a good idea for performance. It really comes down to the individual. Try it and see how you do. Not gonna find any research on this that can prove either side.

Bro the reason you aren't big or cut is because right when you get somewhere you jump ship or change course. Self-sabotage is what's holding you back.

[RaginCajun]

i think as long as one works out period, it is positive. i understand what your asking, and i agree with twist. it comes down to the individual. i think with your diet being spot on, it really shouldn't matter either way. as long as you are getting some amino acids in their to help the muscle rebuild, i say you are fine.

and twist go easy on the fellow, he is pregnant! HA!

[tbody66]

my workouts have always been more intense with higher poundages and reps when they are evening workouts. Part of this is from the gym being more crowded and energetic evenings, maybe it's different at your gym, but if, like you stated, the big guys workout at night you might be motivated to push yourself a little harder(in an intelligent way of course). When I go in the mornings and the elevator music is playing and everyone looks and acts half asleep I lose motivation quickly. I think you will find that the night workouts provide you with much greater results.

[kalspic]

it makes sense to me. if you think about it, having a workout in the morning you would think that the body would use the calories you consume anytime afterwards to fuel your daily activities and repair. now if you workout at night you would only have 3hours or so that your body would also have to focus on giving you energy for activities.

sometimes its the smallest things like that could make a big difference.

look at the new info comming to light about only eating 3meals a day. it makes sense that it would take longer to process more food, thus leading to only needing 3 meals a day. but with that comes the whole comfort thing about downing that many calories at once. just like lifting at night and not being able to sleep. does this make sense or am i just rambling?

[RaginCajun]

it makes sense to me. if you think about it, having a workout in the morning you would think that the body would use the calories you consume anytime afterwards to fuel your daily activities and repair. now if you workout at night you would only have 3hours or so that your body would also have to focus on giving you energy for activities.

sometimes its the smallest things like that could make a big difference.

look at the new info comming to light about only eating 3meals a day. it makes sense that it would take longer to process more food, thus leading to only needing 3 meals a day. but with that comes the whole comfort thing about downing that many calories at once. just like lifting at night and not being able to sleep. does this make sense or am i just rambling?

throw some research articles at me on this one. i want to see scientific reasoning behind this

[kalspic]

let me see if i can scrape some up.

[tbody66]

http://ezinearticles.com/?expert=John_L._Phillip

[tbody66]

http://www.medicinenet.com/script/ma...ticlekey=56254

[tbody66]

I recently read this in one of the magazines I regularly read(MD/FLEX/MUSCLEMAG) and mentioned it in my thread, it read that for fat loss three meals a day proved better than six smaller meals. I'll try and look it up and hope it wasn't in an issue that I've already donated to my gym.

[RaginCajun]

thanks tbody, i will print them and read them. preciate ya

[tbody66]

Here's the other reference, I don't know if you can find it online or not, I just went through my thread until I located what I posted, haven't even looked it up in the mag yet.

Muscular Development, Jan 2011, page 74, Three Meals a Day Best for Weight Loss??

[gbrice75]

my workouts have always been more intense with higher poundages and reps when they are evening workouts. Part of this is from the gym being more crowded and energetic evenings, maybe it's different at your gym, but if, like you stated, the big guys workout at night you might be motivated to push yourself a little harder(in an intelligent way of course). When I go in the mornings and the elevator music is playing and everyone looks and acts half asleep I lose motivation quickly. I think you will find that the night workouts provide you with much greater results.

This is a great point and something i've been meaning to post about. Other than a comfort level, I hate my gym in the morning. It's full of zombies limping around that look like they're pained to be there. I don't need to see that - as you said, it completely kills my motivation.

It's definitely a different atmosphere in the evening, and honestly I expected to be motivated by the big guys - but the opposite has happened. I feel like a scrawny little worm that stands out like a sore thumb among these guys. Even the little fvcking kids are in better shape, it's embarrassing. I was in better shape than 95% of the morning people - which isn't saying much, but it made me feel good at least, lol!

it makes sense to me. if you think about it, having a workout in the morning you would think that the body would use the calories you consume anytime afterwards to fuel your daily activities and repair. now if you workout at night you would only have 3hours or so that your body would also have to focus on giving you energy for activities.

sometimes its the smallest things like that could make a big difference.

look at the new info comming to light about only eating 3meals a day. it makes sense that it would take longer to process more food, thus leading to only needing 3 meals a day. but with that comes the whole comfort thing about downing that many calories at once. just like lifting at night and not being able to sleep. does this make sense or am i just rambling?

Nope, you're definitely not rambling - this is EXACTLY the point I was trying to make, and I failed to do so and got it all convoluted. You hit the nail on the head - my training and nutrition has to withstand an entire day of activity (albeit not intense activity) before resting, whereas now it's a few hours.

I am truly hoping this makes a difference for me. 6 weeks is my initial allotment to see some kind of positive change.

[tbody66]

Do you have a training partner or have you asked to work into a rotation with some of the bigger boys at the gym? Ones that have good form and encourage each other, would be one suggestion.

[kalspic]

will you keep your diet consitent or are you going to change that according to your new schedual?

let us know how it goes im very interested in this!

[gbrice75]

Do you have a training partner or have you asked to work into a rotation with some of the bigger boys at the gym? Ones that have good form and encourage each other, would be one suggestion.

No training partner. My brother in law is leaving just as I get there which sucks. He'd never do my routine anyway, and I sure as hell am not doing his - he's one of those guys who never does legs, does a bunch of dumbbell work and not much more, and has alot of mass. Meanwhile, i'm doing deads, squats, etc. and haven't got shit to show for it!!!

As for the other people there - seem very 'clicky' and i'm the new guy. Eventually they'll warm up to me and hopefully I can get something going.

will you keep your diet consitent or are you going to change that according to your new schedual?

let us know how it goes im very interested in this!

Diet has already changed according to the new schedule. Actually, it's the other way around - I DECIDED to change my schedule in an effort to optimize my diet, among other things.

I will keep you posted - you can follow my progress here:

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...ess-Log/page37

[tbody66]

The bottom line, IMO, is that you will benefit from night lifting food and sleep after weight training will maximize gains. A little off topic maybe, maybe not, but how's that water intake going for you?

[gbrice75]

The bottom line, IMO, is that you will benefit from night lifting food and sleep after weight training will maximize gains. A little off topic maybe, maybe not, but how's that water intake going for you?

Thanks for your input on this bro.

Water intake is better but nowhere near where i'd like it to be. It's the bane of my existence! Well, that and my delts. =(

[tbody66]

Well then, do what it takes to get that water intake up and use your delts as your injection site. (of course you'll have to use insulin needles so you don't inject into bone)

[kalspic]

i havnt seen you post anything about water. what is the problem? just not taking enough in?

and also thanks for the link. what page did you start your new schedual?

[tbody66]

Gbrice is afraid of the water. Makes him want to pee and he only pees sitting down and all the men and ladies make fun of him. It's a vicious cycle.

[Narkissos]

This is a topic that's of recent curiosity to me since I'm doing a 'test run' with a new training/daily schedule.

I'm interested in hearing your opinions (facts/research would be better) on the possible benefits/negatives of going to bed for the night shortly after you train. Let me explain:

My routine for the past 2+ years had me up at 4:30am, training at 5:30am until 6:30am and then going to bed around 10pm. That means 15.5 hours goes by before I actually go to sleep and allow my body to repair and build new tissue.

> my PWO meal is around 8am (after training and cardio) - being a very important meal to 'kickstart' recovery (which doesn't efficiently happen for another 14 hours), it seems like this isn't ideal or optimal at all

> I have to go through an entire day of 'living' - work, etc. which most of my meals are fueling

My new routine has me working out at 6pm until 7pm, and still going to bed around 10pm. Now my PWO meal is coming about 2 hours before bed, and true repair/growth (while we sleep) is a mere 3 hours after my workout, putting all subsequent meals to much more efficient use IMO.

I wonder if I have been shortchanging myself somewhat with early morning training. Is it just a coincidence that most of the guys in the evening are big, and most in the early morning look like me? Maybe.

I'm hoping I can provide some firsthand feedback as I am going to try and maintain this new schedule for the next 6 weeks or so. In the meantime, i'd love to hear what you have.

Sorry if this is convoluted; i'll try and explain it better, let me know.

You guys really overthink everything.

Do you think that growth and repair only happens while asleep?

The breaking down (catabolism) and building up (anabolism) of tissue happens all day and night.

Furthermore, the human body is a wonderfully adaptive organism hellbent on survival.

Seriously mate... the only thing you should be concerned about, is being consistent.

Bottomline.

Provide adequate nutrition.

Provide adequate rest.

Provide adequate stimuli (via resistance training et. al.).

Repeat.

[Narkissos]

Here's the other reference, I don't know if you can find it online or not, I just went through my thread until I located what I posted, haven't even looked it up in the mag yet.

Muscular Development, Jan 2011, page 74, Three Meals a Day Best for Weight Loss??

Also, try reading anything written by Martin Berkhan.

He wrote the LeanGains protocol... which is basically intermittent fasting (2-3 meals later in the day).

Not the same as the '3 meals diet', but definitely puts forward a different and equally valid view.

I've a ton of links that I can PM anyone interested in reading as well.

[Narkissos]

I wonder if I have been shortchanging myself somewhat with early morning training. Is it just a coincidence that most of the guys in the evening are big, and most in the early morning look like me? Maybe.

NB: I train whenever I can get it in.

For half of my competitive career, I trained in the a.m. Then I was forced to adapt to evening training... and then, since my businesses started to take up the majority of my time, I just trained whenever I could fit in a session.

Hasn't affected my quest for size in the least.

Now we could pull studies which show testosterone is highest in the morning, or GH peaks at blahblahblah time... or energy systems are topped up in the afternoon, or whatever...but none of that will change the fact that we can and will adapt to any situation we're required to... because that's how we're wired.

So my advice is that you stop worrying about the little things...and just continue to consistently put in the work.

Not trying to be an asshole here... Just trying to be blunt with you.

Too many guys on these boards worry about unimportant things.

[jimmyinkedup]

I have to say , my initial thoughts when i read this thread was the body will adapt to anything and there is no true "optimal" time to train. Eh whatever works best for the individual.....
GBrice I think you are in tune with your body and unbiased enough to give good hoenst feedback so keep us posted!

[ProBody.]

You guys really overthink everything.

Do you think that growth and repair only happens while asleep?

The breaking down (catabolism) and building up (anabolism) of tissue happens all day and night.

Furthermore, the human body is a wonderfully adaptive organism hellbent on survival.

Seriously mate... the only thing you should be concerned about, is being consistent.

Bottomline.

Provide adequate nutrition.

Provide adequate rest.

Provide adequate stimuli (via resistance training et. al.).

Repeat.

i agree with this.
ive never noticed any difference on my gains having my workout at am or pm. some guys on a heavy cycle are sleeping like 4 hours a day and still 230lb with low bf.

i like to have my workout around 5-8pm, im more aggressive and have more energy which helps on my workout. especially if i had a bad day its better to release that anger in a gym.

but ive also noticed one negative effect on this. usually i cant get sleep so easily couse theres all kind of shit goin trough my head, im temporarily more energetic after working out.

let alone having caffeine at 8pm and tryin to sleep at 11pm.

[gbrice75]

i havnt seen you post anything about water. what is the problem? just not taking enough in?

and also thanks for the link. what page did you start your new schedual?

That's it, just not taking enough in. Easy enough to solve - I just need to drink the effing water. Problem is i'm not thirsty and it's tough to force it. I have to man up.

No idea what page started the new schedule, lol... sorry bro!

Gbrice is afraid of the water. Makes him want to pee and he only pees sitting down and all the men and ladies make fun of him. It's a vicious cycle.

Lame!!!

You guys really overthink everything.

Do you think that growth and repair only happens while asleep?

Definitely not Nark, but I do think that growth and repair is optimized/most efficient while asleep.

The breaking down (catabolism) and building up (anabolism) of tissue happens all day and night.

Furthermore, the human body is a wonderfully adaptive organism hellbent on survival.

Seriously mate... the only thing you should be concerned about, is being consistent.

Amen, I have no retort for this. Consistency has been my biggest problem, as I imagine it is with most people who don't get where they want in this game.

Bottomline.

Provide adequate nutrition.

Provide adequate rest.

Provide adequate stimuli (via resistance training et. al.).

Repeat.

Nutrition - check. Stimuli - check. Rest - a work in progress - but this new schedule IS affording me an extra hour of sleep, so in a roundabout way, working out later in the evening IS more productive for me, although not necessarily in the way I thought it might be, lol!

NB: I train whenever I can get it in.

For half of my competitive career, I trained in the a.m. Then I was forced to adapt to evening training... and then, since my businesses started to take up the majority of my time, I just trained whenever I could fit in a session.

Hasn't affected my quest for size in the least.

Now we could pull studies which show testosterone is highest in the morning, or GH peaks at blahblahblah time... or energy systems are topped up in the afternoon, or whatever...but none of that will change the fact that we can and will adapt to any situation we're required to... because that's how we're wired.

Now this for me is something worth mentioning. I may grow more with evening workouts by default, simply because I feel much more energetic later in the day (vs. very early morning) and therefore my workouts are much more intense. So again, this could have an overall effect, although still in a roundabout way.

So my advice is that you stop worrying about the little things...and just continue to consistently put in the work.

Not trying to be an asshole here... Just trying to be blunt with you.

Too many guys on these boards worry about unimportant things.

Not taken that way at all. I appreciate everybody's input, always - but you're one of the few guys on this board who I pay extra close attention to when you comment... Fireguy is another (not kissing ass here guys). I'd rather you be blunt with me than blow smoke up my ass. I appreciate honesty above all else, so thank you!

I have to say , my initial thoughts when i read this thread was the body will adapt to anything and there is no true "optimal" time to train. Eh whatever works best for the individual.....
GBrice I think you are in tune with your body and unbiased enough to give good hoenst feedback so keep us posted!

Thanks Jimmy! I will stick with this as long as possible (pregnant wife isn't very happy with the new schedule and my getting home much later now), or the originally proposed 6 weeks, whichever comes first. I will keep you posted - hopefully, i'll have positive things to say.

[tbody66]

chug water when you wake up (16+oz), chug after workout, chug before bed, it will help.

[gbrice75]

chug water when you wake up (16+oz), chug after workout, chug before bed, it will help.

Will help what - have me up pissing all night and compromise my sleep quality? No thanks!

But yes - upon waking is one time I need to implement. I'm already getting around 16oz during my am cardio, another 16oz PWO, i'd say about 32oz throughout the day, another 16oz preworkout, 32oz intra-workout, and another 16oz PWO, so it's not THAT bad. I would just like to be drinking more often during my sedentary periods.

[tbody66]

you start now then when you get my age you'll already be used to it and you don't hardly even wake up when you get up to go "sit" on the toilet to pee.