*my client* Phate's help needed! Others too

[Twist]

Stats:
26
25%+bf
125 lbs (current and starting)
5-3
female
Hispanic

Body type: Skinny little legs with no muscle or fat, big rib cage (size 34 bra), All the fat is around her waist and upper torso. Thick layer of fat over her whole core. Also back of her arms/back. Really in the worst places to have it.
I have built her lower body up pretty well; she now has an Ok butt, great legs. Her upper body would look amazing if she didn't have the fat covering it. She has nice capped shoulders, great arms for a girl, hard core (under the fat). Overall she looks like a bulked female. If I can get the fat off she will look amazing.

NOTE: Her weight wants to stay at 125 but she must have put on minimum of 10lbs of muscle since we started a year ago.

Injuries:
she has really high archs and foot pronation and this causes ankle and knee issues (just aches and small pains) from running or doing leg workouts. So her knee bothers her a little and ankle too. That's all I think

She was tested for diabetes and anemia 9 years ago and results were negative.

Routine:
Works 3 days per week with me doing weight training -
Monday
back, shoulders

Wednesday
Chest, arms

Friday
Legs

Lifts:
Bench (1 rep) - 95lbs
Squat (8 reps) - 185
Deadlift (4 reps) - 185

Cardio:
She does cardio 5-7 days per week at the gym. 30-60 minutes before our sessions, and on her own for 60 minutes the other days. Sometimes its empty stomach.
Semi HIIT, 3 minutes walk fast, 1 minute run (but not sprint). This is the same throughout all days.
NOTE: she is awaiting for her spinning bike in the mail and she will be able to do empty stomach cardio on that soon. Should be here in a week.
Forgot to mention that she does salsa dancing two or more days per week so that is another 3+hours of moving. She says she sweats a lot but not sure if you would call it cardio. Maybe low intensity.

Diet:
I have put her on a ton of diets:
Calorie cycle - 1,500 cals tapered to 400 cals, 2 days at 400 cals then refeed at 2k cals then taper back down. She went from 125-119. Stuck at 119 and so we changed it up.
Carb cycle: no carbs for 3 days while busting ass in the gym, 2 days low carbs, 2 days normal 12-1500 cals.
Low cal diet: 800 cals, that's it. 40/40/20 split.

We have cycled out dairy, fruits, protein sources, carb sources. Everything I can think of, we have done. She has never been able to get below 119, even maintaining 119 is extremely difficult, almost impossible.
IF she goes on vacation for even 4 days she goes right back up to 125 (as high as 127 when vacation was a week). She can easily drop back down to 125 but past that is crazy hard.

CURRENT DIET: I am not regulating the total cals but she tells me she barely eats anything. She gets full easily and has never really eaten a lot. I know she doesn't cheat. She is dedicated as hell. When she cheats she tells me (I can tell anyway cuz she bloats or gains weight real fast - even after 1 cheat meal). Her foods consist of: oats, egg whites, all protein sources but mainly chicken - no red meats even though they are allowed, chai tea (with soy milk), sweet potato, bananas for a cheat, brown rice. Oats make her bloat "like when I eat white rice" (her words) so she sticks with brown rice a lot. She usually only eats 2 meals per day by choice even though I keep telling her she has to eat at least 3. I have had her eating as many times as 6 with no progress.

Protein Shake: She has one with no carbs and one with carbs. I usually make her take in the one with no/very little carbs (ON Pro Complex) and when she skips a meal and wants something sweet I allow the one with carbs (monster mass). 1 shake per day tops.

Fruit: She loves fruits (and chocolate). She hates diets the most when they don't have fruits. She says its the taste, I think its the feel. I think they make her feel good for long periods of time (sustained energy release). She doesn't have to eat often if she has fruits and she has a better sense of well being. So I would love to include some fruit in there. What can I do about this while minimizing fat gain?

Supplements:
Fish oil
Multi
protein shakes above

"Supplements":
Anavar 10mgs per day
Clen 2 weeks on 2 off
She has only taken clen once for two weeks and monday is the next start of then second clen cycle. I was on vacation for the first cycle and she said she feels like she tightened up a lot. I'll we see this next upcoming week.
Anavar seems to help her with muscle gains. Her butt has taken off.

FUTURE IDEAS:
I was thinking about lowering her protein intake and see how she responds. That is the only thing I haven't cycled out yet. Her protein intake isn't high by any means though. I also haven't done keto but she gets cranky and breaks down easily on the carb/calorie cycling.

The other thing I could do is just build her muscle mass up as high as we can and just see if it will replace fat. 125lbs with a high muscle mass would not be what she wants though. It might help in a cut. She is beginning to take on a lot of muscle in her upper body so I am worried about taking it too far. She also has huge quads so we have to almost entirely focus on butt/hams now. Good idea?

I have played around with rep ranges (6-25) but not as much as I should have. Any ideas here would be appreciated.

* I want to get her on an optimal diet like Phate suggested for Slimmer but I am afraid of the fat gain from things like mangos. I think she will go crazy from the sugars (and finally some sweets). She would be very excited about cacao powder. Any help here would be great.

Question: What's this whole thing with the body wanting to stay at the same weight but it's willing to change the lbm to fat ratios? Is it that it is comfortable regulating something (hormones?) at a certain bodyweight? I can't figure it out. Some people can change their whole physique but never change weight.

Clen starts monday. Thanks

[Phate]

i'm gonna hit the gym and will look over it when i get back, quick question though, is she diabetic or in a high stress environment in her daily life?

[Twist]

i'm gonna hit the gym and will look over it when i get back, quick question though, is she diabetic or in a high stress environment in her daily life?

Not at all to either. I had her hormones checked but the doc didn't check her estrogen levels; told her it would end up costing her $700. Bullshit. Also he wouldn't give her the results over the phone for progesterone and testosterone , all he would say is that they are normal. If she wants the levels she has to go there in person. I want her to get her estrogen checked. She is months late on her period sometimes and very irregular. She also bloats up to 5lbs around that time of the month (even when its late, she just bloats for longer).


Was thinking of an anti-estrogen but scared to go down that route...

[GirlyGymRat]

Twist, I hope you don't mind if I ask Phate why the question on diabetic or high stress enviornment....my sugar is elevated and I am pre diabetic and my fat is largely on the tummy. I also have a thread since November that Phate can jump into, cuz I wish not to hijack Twist's thread on this lady. Thx!

[Twist]

Don't mind at all. In fact, I have a blood glucose monitor, maybe I should monitor her sugar levels?

[Phate]

Twist, I hope you don't mind if I ask Phate why the question on diabetic or high stress enviornment....my sugar is elevated and I am pre diabetic and my fat is largely on the tummy. I also have a thread since November that Phate can jump into, cuz I wish not to hijack Twist's thread on this lady. Thx!

Answered in your thread as requested

Don't mind at all. In fact, I have a blood glucose monitor, maybe I should monitor her sugar levels?

I would just to make sure, if her levels are bouncing around then extreme diet, cardio, and exercise changes could cause her condition to deteriorate and actually complicate recovery. As such, I will look over her diet and critique, but i'll wait till tomorrow night, in the meantime, any and all extra information you can think of would be helpful if you could edit it into the post. The more info I have to work the more possibilities we can consider and evaluate.

[Twist]

Answered in your thread as requested



I would just to make sure, if her levels are bouncing around then extreme diet, cardio, and exercise changes could cause her condition to deteriorate and actually complicate recovery. As such, I will look over her diet and critique, but i'll wait till tomorrow night, in the meantime, any and all extra information you can think of would be helpful if you could edit it into the post. The more info I have to work the more possibilities we can consider and evaluate.

I've posted everything I can think of. I'll update if I think of more. Thanks a lot for the help.

[Phate]

not a problem, i'll review it tomorrow and think it over for a while to see what i can come up with

[GirlyGymRat]

Twist...I monitor mine and it confirms that I am not eating right (which I already knew). When I eat clean, the sugar is good and when I do not, it is high. I work with Hispanics and the native diet is horrible...lots of starch. I think American diet is number one for bad and Mexico, 2nd worst.

[Twist]

She is not allowed to eat her native food lol. She eats only what I say and she sticks to it unless there is an event. She eats a bodybuilder diet just the calories are super toned down. Thanks for the input GG

[Twist]

At 17 she was tested for anemia and diabetes due to dizzy spells and results were negative.

[gbrice75]

Is this the client that actually gained fat while running IF?

[Phate]

Stats:
26
25%+bf
125 lbs (current and starting)
5-3
female
Hispanic

Body type: Skinny little legs with no muscle or fat, big rib cage (size 34 bra), All the fat is around her waist and upper torso. Thick layer of fat over her whole core. Also back of her arms/back. Really in the worst places to have it.
I have built her lower body up pretty well; she now has an Ok butt, great legs. Her upper body would look amazing if she didn't have the fat covering it. She has nice capped shoulders, great arms for a girl, hard core (under the fat). Overall she looks like a bulked female. If I can get the fat off she will look amazing.

NOTE: Her weight wants to stay at 125 but she must have put on minimum of 10lbs of muscle since we started a year ago.

Injuries:
she has really high archs and foot pronation and this causes ankle and knee issues (just aches and small pains) from running or doing leg workouts. So her knee bothers her a little and ankle too. That's all I think
Does she do better with ellipticals and such?
She was tested for diabetes and anemia 9 years ago and results were negative.

Routine:
Works 3 days per week with me doing weight training -
Monday
back, shoulders

Wednesday
Chest, arms

Friday
Legs

Lifts:
Bench (1 rep) - 95lbs
Squat (8 reps) - 185
Deadlift (4 reps) - 185
It does seem her upper body needs work, but that is something you can deal with better than I.
Cardio:
She does cardio 5-7 days per week at the gym. 30-60 minutes before our sessions, and on her own for 60 minutes the other days. Sometimes its empty stomach.
Semi HIIT, 3 minutes walk fast, 1 minute run (but not sprint). This is the same throughout all days.
NOTE: she is awaiting for her spinning bike in the mail and she will be able to do empty stomach cardio on that soon. Should be here in a week.

Diet:
I have put her on a ton of diets:
Calorie cycle - 1,500 cals tapered to 400 cals, 2 days at 400 cals then refeed at 2k cals then taper back down. She went from 125-119. Stuck at 119 and so we changed it up.
Carb cycle: no carbs for 3 days while busting ass in the gym, 2 days low carbs, 2 days normal 12-1500 cals.
Low cal diet: 800 cals, that's it. 40/40/20 split.

We have cycled out dairy, fruits, protein sources, carb sources. Everything I can think of, we have done. She has never been able to get below 119, even maintaining 119 is extremely difficult, almost impossible.
IF she goes on vacation for even 4 days she goes right back up to 125 (as high as 127 when vacation was a week). She can easily drop back down to 125 but past that is crazy hard.

CURRENT DIET: I am not regulating the total cals but she tells me she barely eats anything. She gets full easily and has never really eaten a lot. I know she doesn't cheat. She is dedicated as hell. When she cheats she tells me (I can tell anyway cuz she bloats or gains weight real fast - even after 1 cheat meal). Her foods consist of: oats, egg whites, all protein sources but mainly chicken - no red meats even though they are allowed, chai tea (with soy milk), sweet potato, bananas for a cheat, brown rice. Oats make her bloat "like when I eat white rice" (her words) so she sticks with brown rice a lot. She usually only eats 2 meals per day by choice even though I keep telling her she has to eat at least 3. I have had her eating as many times as 6 with no progress.

Protein Shake: She has one with no carbs and one with carbs. I usually make her take in the one with no/very little carbs (ON Pro Complex) and when she skips a meal and wants something sweet I allow the one with carbs (monster mass). 1 shake per day tops.
Not sure I agree with the mass monster personally, but I will check it out
Fruit: She loves fruits (and chocolate). She hates diets the most when they don't have fruits. She says its the taste, I think its the feel. I think they make her feel good for long periods of time (sustained energy release). She doesn't have to eat often if she has fruits and she has a better sense of well being. So I would love to include some fruit in there. What can I do about this while minimizing fat gain?

Supplements:
Fish oil
Multi
protein shakes above
What kind of MV?
"Supplements":
Anavar 10mgs per day
Clen 2 weeks on 2 off
She has only taken clen once for two weeks and monday is the next start of then second clen cycle. I was on vacation for the first cycle and she said she feels like she tightened up a lot. I'll we see this next upcoming week.
Anavar seems to help her with muscle gains. Her butt has taken off.

FUTURE IDEAS:
I was thinking about lowering her protein intake and see how she responds. That is the only thing I haven't cycled out yet. Her protein intake isn't high by any means though. I also haven't done keto but she gets cranky and breaks down easily on the carb/calorie cycling.

The other thing I could do is just build her muscle mass up as high as we can and just see if it will replace fat. 125lbs with a high muscle mass would not be what she wants though. It might help in a cut. She is beginning to take on a lot of muscle in her upper body so I am worried about taking it too far. She also has huge quads so we have to almost entirely focus on butt/hams now. Good idea?

I have played around with rep ranges (6-25) but not as much as I should have. Any ideas here would be appreciated.

* I want to get her on an optimal diet like Phate suggested for Slimmer but I am afraid of the fat gain from things like mangos. I think she will go crazy from the sugars (and finally some sweets). She would be very excited about cacao powder. Any help here would be great.

Question: What's this whole thing with the body wanting to stay at the same weight but it's willing to change the lbm to fat ratios? Is it that it is comfortable regulating something (hormones?) at a certain bodyweight? I can't figure it out. Some people can change their whole physique but never change weight. It has to do with your bodies homeostatic feedback loop, this is a huge topic we can get into in detail if you like.

Clen starts monday. Thanks

I think I may have an idea on what is going on...I think she has a food allergy, possible celiac's disease. Almost all the carb sources she eats are gluten free, and when she does consume something with high gluten(oatmeal) she bloats. Brown rice normally doesn't contain gliaden(the gluten that causes the autoimmune response in celiacs) BUT, alot of rice manufacturers coats their rice with a corn starch coating or something similar as an external barrier, and these CAN contain gliaden.

If she in fact does have this condition, it would explain the inability to lose weight, as she would not be able to digest quite a few foods and they would stay in her body for a while.

If it isn't this, then she may have a metabolic syndrome, or an induced metabolic syndrome.

What is her TDEE?

Does she have a family history of any dieases or obesity?

[Kawigirl]

Sounds like her metabolism is messed up from such low cals for a period of time...and personally don't see low cals working again. I think she needs to get her metabolism up first with at least 1500 - 1800 cals till you start dropping. She's in the same position as I was in when I first started competing...and I myself needed to raise cals first.


And typically..if estrogen levels are high...the fat would be to the lower abdominals, and thighs....not usually upper body

Question...how long has she been dieting?

[Twist]

She's just not a fan of ellipticals and bikes. I could tell her to do it though. Just think she slacks. I'm a big fan of actual running. However she is waiting for her spinner in the mail so she will be biking for sure.

I think I may have an idea on what is going on...I think she has a food allergy, possible celiac's disease. Almost all the carb sources she eats are gluten free, and when she does consume something with high gluten(oatmeal) she bloats. Brown rice normally doesn't contain gliaden(the gluten that causes the autoimmune response in celiacs) BUT, alot of rice manufacturers coats their rice with a corn starch coating or something similar as an external barrier, and these CAN contain gliaden.I too suspected that. She said that she bloats from white rice the most though. She has no problem with breads and tortillas though. Only oatmeal so I abandoned that theory. Should I pursue again?

If she in fact does have this condition, it would explain the inability to lose weight, as she would not be able to digest quite a few foods and they would stay in her body for a while.
We have cycled out all those carbs before anyway with no drop in weight

If it isn't this, then she may have a metabolic syndrome, or an induced metabolic syndrome.
Explain further please? You mean from eating low cals for so long?

What is her TDEE?
At about 1,000 cals per day she doesn't lose or gain, but her tdee (in the more traditional sense) is around 2k last time I checked.

Does she have a family history of any dieases or obesity?
I'm pretty sure she doesn't I have asked her this before and I don't remember the answer so I'm pretty sure she said no. Mother is the same way with the upper body fat though. I'll ask again.

Multi is one a day I think.
The mass monster was when she needed to get lots of cals but doesn't feel like eating (which is often). She doesn't drink that anymore. That was when we were trying to get her legs to grow.
That feedback loop is something I really want to know about. I have been trying to figure it out for years.

Sounds like her metabolism is messed up from such low cals for a period of time...and personally don't see low cals working again. I think she needs to get her metabolism up first with at least 1500 - 1800 cals till you start dropping. She's in the same position as I was in when I first started competing...and I myself needed to raise cals first.


And typically..if estrogen levels are high...the fat would be to the lower abdominals, and thighs....not usually upper body
What do you think about he periods that are late by weeks to months? Maybe that's just where her fat deposits are genetically though?

Question...how long has she been dieting?

**Forgot to mention that she took birth control and it made her not hungry and she lost weight because she wouldn't eat anything. She stopped taking it though cuz of some other reason that I forgot.

She has been dieting with me for about a year now. Not always low cal. Right now her cals are not restricted, she just has never been a big eater by choice. Right now she is just eating clean. I actually stole your food choices from last time we talked and that's all she can have. Think I should make her eat 1500 or more cals and see what happens?


She purchased a blood test online and will be going to get her estrogen levels checked soon so that will settle that.

[Twist]

Is this the client that actually gained fat while running IF?

yes.

[Kawigirl]

I just think with such a restriction of calories for so long; isn't helping. And...ya...i do think its hindered her metabolism.

As for her periods.....mine is the same way when i start playing with calories...and exercising excessively. If she was a normal range for estrogen...she'd be having no issue

How long has she been off the pill? Or is she still on?

[Twist]

I just think with such a restriction of calories for so long; isn't helping. And...ya...i do think its hindered her metabolism.She doesn't eat much by choice. I had to force her to get in cals with stuff like monster mass. I can get her to eat 2k max probably.

As for her periods.....mine is the same way when i start playing with calories...and exercising excessively. If she was a normal range for estrogen...she'd be having no issue
Hers have been like this since the beginning. Ok I see your point on the estrogen. We will know for sure soon.

How long has she been off the pill? Or is she still on?

Off the pill. It's been well over a year.

[Twist]

Added bold to cardio section. She does salsa a couple nights per week so that is some more 'cardio' she does.

[Phate]

Sounds like her metabolism is messed up from such low cals for a period of time...and personally don't see low cals working again. I think she needs to get her metabolism up first with at least 1500 - 1800 cals till you start dropping. She's in the same position as I was in when I first started competing...and I myself needed to raise cals first.
I agree with that accessment, and yes Twist, and induced metabolic syndrome is either lower/higher metabolism(normally TRH or TSH based) due to environmental rather than hormonal causes.

And typically..if estrogen levels are high...the fat would be to the lower abdominals, and thighs....not usually upper body
Possibly, but stress(though Twist says that a non-issue) and some other factors that we can't control can cause adipose deposit shifts
Question...how long has she been dieting?

I just think with such a restriction of calories for so long; isn't helping. And...ya...i do think its hindered her metabolism.

As for her periods.....mine is the same way when i start playing with calories...and exercising excessively. If she was a normal range for estrogen...she'd be having no issue
again this can be environmental as well, but exercise and caloric restrictions definitely do play a part(Twist, what type of MV does she take, she may be mildly malnourished in some mineral, trace elements, etc..)
How long has she been off the pill? Or is she still on?

If she's been off for a year then I doubt that's the cause, BTW, is she sexually active, or have a steady boyfriend, and if so, does he use androgel or a male enhancement cream? That could be a major factor as well.

[Twist]

She takes one-a-day I think. She is sexually active and sex drive is fine. Her boyfriend lives far away and they don't see each other often. He is not on any trt or hormones.

Shall I have her up the cals? To what do you think? She probably gets in 800 or so now. Maybe a little more. Any specific food choices I should have her eat?

[Phate]

upping protein is a must, since it's thermodynamic value is the highest, and increasing low GL carbs would be nice. I would also have her add in more raw greens and some superfoods to see if that helps(if she's malnourished in cofactors and such then they'll take care of that). I would slowly increase her calories over a moderate amount of time instead of all at once.

[Twist]

Ok. How does this basic meal plan sound?
1,500 cals to start 45/40/15, after two weeks up to 1,800, then end at 2,000?
Meal 1
Egg whites
1 whole egg
peppers, onions, mushrooms, spinach
1/4 mango
Fish oil caps

Meal 2
Chicken (salad)
spinach
tomatoes
carrots

Last meal and pwo
Chicken
broccoli or another green veggie
sweet potato
Multi-vitamin (generic)
calcium tab

Snack:
Protein shake (30g protein, 2.5g carbs, .5g fat)
1 tsp cacao
Couple caps (don't know serving size yet) spirulina

what foods should I add/drop? I will total cals up once I get the right foods, and the right total cals. Thanks for all the help guys.

[Kawigirl]

Wouldn't cutting meals into 5 or 6 possibly help a tad more? And, you did say her appetite is small...the smaller meals more frequently might help

[Twist]

She is a school teacher and she says that she can't eat when children are present so that leaves her with breakfast, lunch, and we could possibly get in two meals after school. She works out at 5 so we could do pwo and a later dinner. She never eats after her workouts because she doesn't feel like it (even though I tell her she has to). This is why I made her get the mass protein shake so she could drink her cals as she was only getting in about 800 at the time and I put her on a 2k diet for muscle growth. I think we could manage 5. She's tough lol.