what kina carbs do u guys take after trainng?

[freak1]

?just wondering what kinda carbs do u guys take after trainng.i take 80 grams of waxy maize myself.just wondering if thats a good source of carbs to have post wrkout since ive read some mkixed revieews on it .also is it ok to keep taking pwo on a cutting diet aS WELL or should i bak it dwn to 1 scoop instead of 2??

[gbrice75]

Check out post number #52 http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...2#.TqI36pviHBI

My response to Baseline's question - simple carbs vs complex PWO

[Standby]

i take 1 scoop waxy then and hour later oats

[Sgt. Hartman]

I have taken WM pretty extensively and the 1 thing I like about it is that it doesn't fill you up at all which makes your PPWO meal much easier to get down if you're taking in a lot of cals. Other than that, IMO, there is no advantage in taking WM over complex carbs for PWO.

[freak1]

sgt hartman arent we suppose to take in simple carbs pwo though to create that insulin spike to drive in the nutrients we are takin at that time though like prot,creatine etc?/???

[Sgt. Hartman]

Complex carbs will create a sufficient insulin response in order to replace muscle glycogen and deliver protein to the muscle to start the repair process. It takes hours to replace lost muscle glycogen so IMO it makes more sense to take complex carbs PWO to have a steady prolonged replenishing.

Read the link that GB posted.

[-KJ-]

I also favour complex carbs... Very rarely have simple carbs especially on a cutting diet IMO

OATS is the way forward

[Sgt. Hartman]

I also favour complex carbs... Very rarely have simple carbs especially on a cutting diet IMO

OATS is the way forward

^^^This!

[PK-V]

Check out post number #52 http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...2#.TqI36pviHBI

My response to Baseline's question - simple carbs vs complex PWO

I can give the 'canned'/widely accepted info, or my personal opinion based on my own experiences and what I've seen. I'm going with the latter, because you can read the former anywhere!

As some of you probably know by now, i'm not a fan of simple carbs PWO, particularly with a cutting diet . Ingesting simple carbs will quickly raise blood glucose levels and trigger a big insulin release. When taken along with protein (which IMO always should be), the glucose, amino's and other nutrients are 'swept up' and shuttled into depleted muscle cells.

That's all well and good when we believe that the muscles are ABSOLUTELY STARVED of nutrition and MUST be replenished immediately.

Fig 1.

The aim of simple carbs post workout is not to replenish starved muscle the main goal is to maximize protein synthesis, which is likely accomplished using quickly absorbed carbohydrates which greatly elevates insulin levels compaired to low GI carbohydrates. Glycogen restoration is all too easy to achieve and is little to be concerned with post workout.

I don't subscribe to that theory however. I am also not in the business of selling supplements /protein powders to people. There are studies that show the 'anabolic window' PWO actually increases (protein synthesis, nutrient uptake) several hours PWO... contrary to the accepted mantra that 'after 1 hour it magically shuts'. As such, complex carbs will also cause an insulin release, but in a much more controlled manner, keeping blood glucose levels more stable and regulated. See above This, to me, is a better option vs. spiking insulin ... then crashing an hour later... which ALWAYS happened to me. Usually our catecholamine response should be enough to keep out blood sugar elevated without problems. If you find you crash hard you could have some carbs ready just in case just a thought. I would crash so hard, I actually went to the dr. to be checked for hypoglycemia (this was years ago). Also, if you go along with the idea of the anabolic window being MORE sensitive several hours PWO, it would make more sense to use complex carbs as they will burn slower and benefit you longer. See Fig 1.

When I was running my IF diet , I was training fasted (BCAA's only), and STILL delaying my PWO meal for several hours (simply because I workout at 5:30am, and want my 8 hour feeding window to end right before going to bed at night). Based on the 'muscle starving PWO' theory, I should have been catabolic as hell.

Fig 2.

Muslce starving theory is BS you can have elevated protein systhesis and insuling sensitivity for up to 24 hours after training.

Tipton and colleagues (2003) examined responsiveness of protein synthesis for a day after a workout, and found it to reflect a 24 hour enhanced level.

The more common response to strength training is an increase in insulin sensitivity (Fujitani et al., 1998; Miller et al, 1984), and brand new data show even the acute effect from a single bout lasts for over 24 hours (Koopman et al., 2005).

Not only skipping PWO nutrition , but having trained FASTED - 16 hours!! Well, quite the opposite. I had some of the most intense training sessions of my life, and got stronger with each workout . Literally beat the previous week's record, every week. That's enough to convince me.

One last thing on this (I know i'm rambling/digressing now) - some people do fine with simple carbs PWO. People like me who were overweight for 15 years probably don't. I made myself insulin resistant during those years, so a bunch of sugar welled up in my bloodstream isn't going to benefit me. Even for people who do well with simple carbs PWO, I am not a fan of ingesting pure sugar - i.e. dextrose, maltodextrin, etc. I'd suggest 50/50 simple/complex, with the simple carbs coming from fruits.

Strictly bodybuilding speaking the main goal post workout is to spike blood amino concentrations with the use of free form amino acids or other sources of fast digesting protein from a highly bioavailable source. Also the use of including fast acting carbs to help assist with it's insulin pro effects on protein synthesis. But, as you have found gb the simple carbs are too hard on your blood sugar levels which makes a good case for you to add the complex carbs. Also don't forget to avoid fat intake post workout guys, we don't want the fat slowing down digestion.

I would just like to add that I think post workout nutrition is way over hyped, the first meal of the day is the most important in my opinion.

My 2ml

[Sgt. Hartman]

I don't really understand the point you're trying to make, not sure when you say "you" if you're talking to GB or everyone in general.

You never explained what simple sugars are able to achieve that complex carbohydrates cannot.

Also, if strength training increases insulin sensitivity so much (based on the studies you quoted from 1998 and 1984 lol) then why do we need to further spike insulin post WO?

[freak1]

so i should replace my waxy maize with oats basically than? and is is it same princple of double the amount of carbs vs protein for pwo???? so i would have 80 grams of oats with my 40 grams protein

[gbrice75]

PK - not sure what you're getting on about... half of what you posted sounds like you're debating me (no problem btw), the other half sounds like you're agreeing with me. I'm not sure you're understanding exactly what I was attempting to convey...??

[gbrice75]

so i should replace my waxy maize with oats basically than? and is is it same princple of double the amount of carbs vs protein for pwo???? so i would have 80 grams of oats with my 40 grams protein

If for no other reason, oats are cheaper than waxy maize, and I don't believe there's any additional benefit to taking WM. The simple carbs PWO theory is SOOOO beaten to death, and sooo 1990's...

Also, the 2:1 carbs to protein ratio is complete bs IMO. There's no magical equation. for instance, my PWO meal is 36g protein, 35g carbs. Simple.

[PK-V]

I don't really understand the point you're trying to make, not sure when you say "you" if you're talking to GB or everyone in general.

The point I am trying to make is that simple carbs appear to be a better alternative for post workout nutrition compared to complex carbs when the main goal is maximizing muscle growth. From my current understanding.

You never explained what simple sugars are able to achieve that complex carbohydrates cannot.

The classic action of insulin is the stimulation of protein synthesis, to trigger a maximized insulin response a high glycemic carbohydrate source is warranted.

Also, if strength training increases insulin sensitivity so much (based on the studies you quoted from 1998 and 1984 lol) then why do we need to further spike insulin post WO?

Because insulin's effects on protein degradation show a continual decrease in protein degradation in coloration to increasing levels of insulin(1)And LOL @ you for calling out studies based on their publish dates

PK - not sure what you're getting on about... half of what you posted sounds like you're debating me (no problem btw), the other half sounds like you're agreeing with me. I'm not sure you're understanding exactly what I was attempting to convey...??

It was put together in a rush
Debatable that is the question,
I am just putting forward info based on research which seems to support my theory
Not trying to have a go at anyone. I just want to learn more and I find this method to be more productive, if I am wrong I want to know so!




Leucine’s Effects and Interaction with Insulin and Muscle Growth
Journal of HYPERPLASIA Research 6(3):Published August 3, 2006 (1)

[gbrice75]

It was put together in a rush
Debatable that is the question,
I am just putting forward info based on research which seems to support my theory
Not trying to have a go at anyone. I just want to learn more and I find this method to be more productive, if I am wrong I want to know so!




Leucine’s Effects and Interaction with Insulin and Muscle Growth
Journal of HYPERPLASIA Research 6(3):Published August 3, 2006 (1)

Actually, you did make a great point - re: protein synthesis vs. glycogen replenishment PWO. However, since the whole 'short anabolic window' theory is shit (I think we can all agree on that at this point, right?) and studies show nutrient uptake and protein synthesis is actually HIGHER several hours PWO, it would stand to reason that complex carbs would be a better alternative since they'll be 'active' for much longer. Even delaying PWO nutrition, as many do by default by means of PWO cardio, could prove beneficial.

It hasn't hurt me, I can say that much.

I think at the end of the day, for people who do well with simple carbs, i'd recommend a 50/50 split - however i'd get my simple carbs from fruits. Nobody is going to convince me that consuming dextrose/maltodextrin purposely is a good idea.

[jimmyinkedup]

It was put together in a rush
Debatable that is the question,
I am just putting forward info based on research which seems to support my theory
Not trying to have a go at anyone. I just want to learn more and I find this method to be more productive, if I am wrong I want to know so!




Leucine’s Effects and Interaction with Insulin and Muscle Growth
Journal of HYPERPLASIA Research 6(3):Published August 3, 2006 (1)

If your thery is that the endegenous insulin spike caused by the ingestion of simple carbs causes enough of a dramatic increase in protein synthesis so as to cause a measurable difference in actual muscle built. Keeping in mind this effect is all accomplished in one pwo ingestion. Forgetting the general lack of prudence from a health and nutrition standpoint as far as ingesting simple sugar. Perhaps then you should run a log, switch your diet to all simple carbs - so you can supposedly increase that protein synthesis to a clinically significant level (ie translates to more muscle) all day and see how it works out comparitively speaking. What do you think?

[Sgt. Hartman]

Good point Jimmy. If extremely high insulin levels really do increase protein synthesis, and protein synthesis lasts for at least several hours after WO, then it seems we should all walk around all day with our insulin levels sky high.

IMO, this is a subjective issue that we can find research or studies to back up whatever our opinions are. Here is a study that shows that carbohydrates have no effect on protein synthesis when sufficient protein is consumed post WO:


Coingestion of carbohydrate with protein does not further augment postexercise muscle protein synthesis
René Koopman,1 Milou Beelen,1 Trent Stellingwerff,1 Bart Pennings,1 Wim H. M. Saris,2 Arie K. Kies,3 Harm Kuipers,1 and Luc J. C. van Loon1,2
Departments of 1Movement Sciences and 2Human Biology, Nutrition and Toxicology Research Institute Maastricht, Maastricht University, Maastricht; and 3DSM Food Specialties, R&D, Biochemistry and Nutrition Department, Delft, The Netherlands

Submitted 28 February 2007 ; accepted in final form 1 July 2007


ABSTRACT
The present study was designed to assess the impact of coingestion of various amounts of carbohydrate combined with an ample amount of protein intake on postexercise muscle protein synthesis rates. Ten healthy, fit men (20 ± 0.3 yr) were randomly assigned to three crossover experiments. After 60 min of resistance exercise, subjects consumed 0.3 g·kg–1·h–1 protein hydrolysate with 0, 0.15, or 0.6 g·kg–1·h–1 carbohydrate during a 6-h recovery period (PRO, PRO + LCHO, and PRO + HCHO, respectively). Primed, continuous infusions with L-[ring-13C6]phenylalanine, L-[ring-2H2]tyrosine, and [6,6-2H2]glucose were applied, and blood and muscle samples were collected to assess whole body protein turnover and glucose kinetics as well as protein fractional synthesis rate (FSR) in the vastus lateralis muscle over 6 h of postexercise recovery. Plasma insulin responses were significantly greater in PRO + HCHO compared with PRO + LCHO and PRO (18.4 ± 2.9 vs. 3.7 ± 0.5 and 1.5 ± 0.2 U·6 h–1·l–1, respectively, P < 0.001). Plasma glucose rate of appearance (Ra) and disappearance (Rd) increased over time in PRO + HCHO and PRO + LCHO, but not in PRO. Plasma glucose Ra and Rd were substantially greater in PRO + HCHO vs. both PRO and PRO + LCHO (P < 0.01). Whole body protein breakdown, synthesis, and oxidation rates, as well as whole body protein balance, did not differ between experiments. Mixed muscle protein FSR did not differ between treatments and averaged 0.10 ± 0.01, 0.10 ± 0.01, and 0.11 ± 0.01%/h in the PRO, PRO + LCHO, and PRO + HCHO experiments, respectively. In conclusion, coingestion of carbohydrate during recovery does not further stimulate postexercise muscle protein synthesis when ample protein is ingested.


I'm not saying that I agree with it their conclusion, just that studies are fairly useless regarding this topic.

This isn't scientific at all but this is the way I think of it. The body will net virtually the same amount of total insulin whether 50g of carbs from dextrose are consumed or 50g of carbs from oats are consumed. The difference being that the insulin response from the dextrose will be very high but short-lived, while the insulin response from the oats will be a steady release over an extended period of time. If protein synthesis lasts for a minimum of several hours after WO, then why not have a constant flow of insulin to restore muscle glycogen and drive protein synthesis? The only advantage that dextrose or WM or Vitargo have over complex carbs IMO is that they start the process a little bit sooner than complex carbs, but I don't really see the point in spiking insulin levels in order to start a process that lasts at least several hours, a few minutes sooner.

[PK-V]

Jimmy just put the final nail in the coffin..... Show me the results!

I wish we could put the two head to head and find out the real answer, I think we are truly nitpicking at this stage with so many variables to take into consideration

Right now I can imagine Lee Priest eating his ice cream post workout and laughing at the though of all this anal nutrition analysis LOL

GB I completely agree with your preference with the use of natural sugars in the form of fruit over dex/malt any day of the week

I agree with the added benefits of using the complex carbohydrates in post workout nutrition in relation to body composition maintenance due to insulin control and of course the avoidance of simple sugars in the interest of general health

I can see the two sides of the coin a lot clear now

Hartman I get where your coming from, my way of comparing the two types of carbs would be similar to comparing a graph of a long acting testosterone ester to a shorter acting ester. The faster acting ester would show a faster peak concentration.

While the long acting ester would show a more gradual increase in total peak concentration. But we both know the end result of that in the steroid game. Zero noticeable difference.

Studies show one result another study contradicts the results of another followed by real life application showing neither of the two to be the actual reality

Thanks for the replies guys interesting stuff

[gbrice75]

We are definitely the nerds of the forum...

[jimmyinkedup]

^^^ Yeah and it prob doesnt need to be that way. Allow me to elaborate.
So im a pretty "scientific" guy...read alot...have read prob hundreds if not thousands of studies over the years...have a pretty good memory. Dilligent researcher in all areas. When I entered into this lifestyle it became somewhat of an obsession (like it does for many im sure). I used to research and analyze evrything. Looking for optimal ways to do it all - eat , supplement , workout - you name it. I read volumes - educated myself on the latest theries the hows the whys.. id try to tell people why this or that was best justify it. Hell id debate for days on one thread when i first joined here. Know what i realize - much of it was a big waste of time , energy , and didnt yield any benefit.
Now I use a cost / benfit analogy when i decide what im going to do. For example lets take supplements. Say oh..a NO supp. So it ddialates blood vessels , supposedly transports blood and nutrients to muscle more "efficiently" , pump. Ok thats all good - but does it in any way whatsoever build more muscle - the answer = no. So its a waste. Cost = $ / benfit = nothing in the way of my ultimate goal (muscle).
Thats how I look at things now. Not what is "optimal" or "efficient" I look at what works and gives me more muscle. For example diet. I have found if i eat 4200 calories in 6 meals , 3 meals and 2 snacks , or just 3 meals the end result is exactly the same. So the cost was dilligent planning and effort to eat evey 2-3 hrs , eating at work , carrying food everywhere...and the benfit was...well nothing. So I dont care anymore. I hit my daily macros in whatever fashion suits my current daily schedule.
So lets tie it in to this topic. We have covered all the hype as to why poeple do this. So I used to do it as well. High gi carbs 50+grams of dextrose / 50g protein in a shake pwo. The cost - the runs from all the sugar / the adverse health effects of 50 grams of pure sugar ingested all at once / sometimes id get so lightheaded after chugging i felt like i was gonna puke. The benfit = none. Now I use low gi carbs pwo - have for the last couple years and you know what - its just as effective and better for me nutritionally and from a general health standpoint.
My ultimate point is all this "optimal" timing and "optimal" carb type pwo and supposed meal frequency benefit - who the fvck cares if it ultimately doesnt give me more muscle or heal me burn more fat or whatever my specific goal is.
I strongly recommend people take this approach. Especially when it comes to supplement - which all say the do this thing that gives this edge blah blah blah - but ultimately as i have said - if it doesnt translate to more muscle gained or more fat burned - who really cares.
Same with the obsessive diet theories on frequency and timing and anabolic windows and insulins spikes pwo and blah blah blah.
Save yourself some trouble and aggravation. This requires enough time and discipline as it is - dont make it any harder. Focus on the main things that really have an impact and make a difference.
Now maybe you enjoy the analysis and obsession and hours of planning and theorizing and experimenting - and thats fine by all means. I did it. Im just saying dont let it become so important that you take your eye off the ultimate prize or waste tons of time for what amounts to no added gain.
I see all stages and levels of experience doing this. Beginners often woirry about things like pwo shakes - when their entire diet sucks. Or if they should buy NO superexplode because the arent growing - and they are eating 500 cals less than they shoudl be! Even advanced guys walking around with pill containers taking useless supps at various scheduled time that ultimately do nothing at all. Eating during work or at family functions out of a cooler they take evrytwhere so they arent 30 mins latre with a meal dreading the will go "catabolic" *LMAO*. WTF?
Maybe i feel this way now because i HAVE been that way to varying degrees. I have been obsessive. I still enjoy intelligent debate and intellectual discussions. I just now know how important the main principles really are and how inconsequential the topics that are often so hotly debated really are. Perhaps its a process we all go through. Perhaps some like it complicated and difficult. Perhaps im just rambling *LOL*
Just a few thoughts.

[PK-V]

^^^ That used to be me
I would get angry if I missed a meal
Now I know better...

Exactly as you said, it's all about what works for and with you on the path to accomplishing your goals
All the nutrition knowledge in the world won't do you any good if you can't apply this knowledge to your own individualistic lifestyle needs and requirements. In the real world as we all know shit can look real good on paper but in the busy day to day world it's just not feasible.
With successfully accomplishing just that I think it's the point at which you take yourself to the next level

[gbrice75]

I'm exhausted... lol!

[3863]

What an excellent thread.

[Standby]

WM is easy for me to pound in the locker room then head out for my cardio. then i go home and pount the real food. the reason i use it. yes the $ sucks

[gbrice75]

DSM's ass is easy for me to pound in the locker room

Dude, wtf!!?? Can't you save this for the lounge?

[Standby]

Dude, wtf!!?? Can't you save this for the lounge?

sorry mister monitor. ill leave all my gayness in the lounge. just posted a pic of a dude if your interested lol

[gbrice75]

Thank you for following the rules oh member in good standing.

PS - between you and me, i'll go check out that pic now. Shhh!