Protein from mainly carb foods. Count it?

**thex95** · 06-13-2012, 11:24 AM

This is a pretty retarded question but that the hell.

Do you guys count the protein from foods you take in as a source of carbohydrates? For example 85 grams of the whole wheat pasta I eat contains 12 grams of protein, which is a fairly decent amount. Now when I make my meal plans I usually just think of pasta as carbs, chicken as protein ect. Do you guys contribute the protein from carb rich foods to your daily overall protein intake?

**Dukkit** · 06-13-2012, 11:27 AM

No.

Those protein aminos are not complete.

So I dont count them.

**gbrice75** · 06-13-2012, 11:35 AM

It's a tricky question tbh... and definitely not retarded because a lot of people wonder about this.

Technically, incomplete proteins (pasta, rice, etc) should count. It's not as if you eat a bowl of pasta, your body immediately recognizes that certain amino's are missing, and rejects or wastes it. The amino's are 'pooled' in your system for an undetermined length of time, waiting to be paired with the missing amino's to form a complete protein. If after some time they cannot make the connection, they are released back into the bloodstream and either wasted or converted and stored. Rice and beans, peanuts and wheat, etc are examples of 2 incomplete sources which when combined create a complete source.

Having said that, if my target for the day is 275g of protein, I aim to eat 275g of complete protein, bearing in mind that my macro will be over due to the incomplete sources. Or, if I miss 30g of complete protein that day, I don't sweat it knowing I have this 'reserve' pool.

**Back In Black** · 06-13-2012, 11:36 AM

Originally Posted by dukkitdalaw

No.

Those protein aminos are not complete.

So I dont count them.

Partly it depends on what's on your plate. Baked beans and bread compliment each other to provide a full spectrum of amino's. There are plenty of combinations that provide the same compliment. But more combinations that don't!

Either way, I include them but I class them as a secondary source. I make sure that every meal has a good chunk of the protein coming from a complete source!

**jg2243** · 06-13-2012, 11:43 AM

That was a great question didn't full understand it myself .. there were some great answers

**thex95** · 06-13-2012, 11:44 AM

Originally Posted by gbrice75

It's a tricky question tbh... and definitely not retarded because a lot of people wonder about this.

Technically, incomplete proteins (pasta, rice, etc) should count. It's not as if you eat a bowl of pasta, your body immediately recognizes that certain amino's are missing, and rejects or wastes it. The amino's are 'pooled' in your system for an undetermined length of time, waiting to be paired with the missing amino's to form a complete protein. If after some time they cannot make the connection, they are released back into the bloodstream and either wasted or converted and stored. Rice and beans, peanuts and wheat, etc are examples of 2 incomplete sources which when combined create a complete source.

Having said that, if my target for the day is 275g of protein, I aim to eat 275g of complete protein, bearing in mind that my macro will be over due to the incomplete sources. My protein will be slightly over. Or, if I miss 30g of complete protein that day, I don't sweat it knowing I have this 'reserve' pool.

dam thats informative, thanks gbrice!

**Times Roman** · 06-13-2012, 12:19 PM

If you look, the amino acids that comprise protein ALSO have calories and therefore need to be counted.

that would be a neat trick, wouldn't it? avoid protein and the related calories, and eat nothing but amino acids with "Zero" calories?

but sorry, amino acids have the same amount of calories as protein, 4 cals/gram

**gbrice75** · 06-13-2012, 12:52 PM

Originally Posted by thex95

dam thats informative, thanks gbrice!

Glad you enjoyed it!

Originally Posted by Times Roman

If you look, the amino acids that comprise protein ALSO have calories and therefore need to be counted.

that would be a neat trick, wouldn't it? avoid protein and the related calories, and eat nothing but amino acids with "Zero" calories?

but sorry, amino acids have the same amount of calories as protein, 4 cals/gram

I think he's asking whether or not the protein macro should be counted towards the daily goal, not necessarily whether or not the calories hold any value. THAT... would be a retarded question!

**oscarjones** · 06-13-2012, 01:48 PM

Quinoa is a grain-like polysaccharide, which happens to be a complete protein, gluten free, and a chenopod (species of fruit).

Best carb out there, due to the high nutritional values of (approx 18% protein), dietary fiber, phosphorous, magnesium, and iron. It also happens to be relatively low on the glycemic index scale, easy to prepare, combine and cook with, and has a cool name.

*Gluten free to boot. Go buy some... right now... seriously...

**gbrice75** · 06-13-2012, 02:00 PM

^^ Quinoa FTMFW!!!!

**JAB1** · 06-13-2012, 02:54 PM

Interesting. I have always included all macros from everything I eat for my daily totals. I eat pro/carb/fat meals for all except before bed whcih is pro/fat so hopefully I am not coming up short on protein??

**oscarjones** · 06-13-2012, 05:36 PM

Originally Posted by JAB1

Interesting. I have always included all macros from everything I eat for my daily totals. I eat pro/carb/fat meals for all except before bed whcih is pro/fat so hopefully I am not coming up short on protein??

Well, let's just assume you're not actually getting in as many grams of complete proteins if you count this way. However, I am a firm believer in the fact that most bodybuilders (especially those who are natural) eat more protein than really required to build muscle. That's a different debate though, and now you know how to count properly. =)

**gbrice75** · 06-14-2012, 11:35 AM

Originally Posted by oscarjones

Well, let's just assume you're not actually getting in as many grams of complete proteins if you count this way. However, I am a firm believer in the fact that most bodybuilders (especially those who are natural) eat more protein than really required to build muscle. That's a different debate though, and now you know how to count properly. =)

I agree 100%! I always snicker when I see 160lb guys listing their daily macros and it's something like:

450g protein
250g carbs
60g fat

And they wonder why they're not growing. All that protein... such a waste of calories that would be better utilized coming by way of carbs and possibly a bit more fat.

**Turkish Juicer** · 06-14-2012, 11:55 AM

Originally Posted by gbrice75

I agree 100%! I always snicker when I see 160lb guys listing their daily macros and it's something like:

450g protein
250g carbs
60g fat

And they wonder why they're not growing. All that protein... such a waste of calories that would be better utilized coming by way of carbs and possibly a bit more fat.

Very good point indeed!

I debated this in a recent thread on this forum: http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...!#.T9olQpiwbDw

**Narkissos** · 06-14-2012, 01:43 PM

Originally Posted by dukkitdalaw

No.

I disagree.

Originally Posted by dukkitdalaw

Those protein aminos are not complete.

So I dont count them.

The amino acid profile in the individual foods are not complete.

However, you won't be consuming these foods alone... correct?

The amino acids assimilated will contribute to the amino acid pool.

e.g.

A person were to consume a grain-based carb (for example), yielding 8.1gr protein.. This amounts to:

Tryptophan 96.2mg

Threonine 242mg

Isoleucine 290 mg

Leucine 483mg

Lysine 442mg

Methionine 178mg

Cystine 117mg

Phenylalanine 342mg

Tyrosine 154 mg

Valine 342mg

Arginine 629mg

Histidine 235mg

Alanine 339 mg

Aspartic acid 653 mg

Glutamic acid 1073
mg

Glycine 400mg

Proline 444 mg

Serine 326mg

Plus this breakdown from a "complete protein"... say 100grams of beef:

				Beef
Histidine				340mg
Isoleucine^BCAA				480mg
Leucine^BCAA				830mg
Valine^BCAA				500mg
Lysine				890mg
Methionine				400mg
Tyrosine				800mg
Threonine				46mg
Tryptophan				120mg

^^Cumulatively, the amino pool is improved... particularly where BCAAs are concerned.

You have a denser pool of amino acids... which the body then uses for various processes. It isn't about protein solely... It is about amino acids. Nutrition, particularly sports nutrition, is about looking at things in tandem: the sum of all factors.

Protein foods are complete, but their ratio of amino acids aren't equal. Some are high in methionine (for example), while others are low. I suggest that my clients count all grams of protein (particularly when dieting down), as each one is usable and impactful.

**oscarjones** · 06-14-2012, 01:47 PM

Originally Posted by Narkissos

I disagree.

The amino acid profile in the individual foods are not complete.

However, you won't be consuming these foods alone... correct?

The amino acids assimilated will contribute to the amino acid pool.

e.g.

A person were to consume a grain-based carb (for example), yielding 8.1gr protein.. This amounts to:

Plus this breakdown from a "complete protein"... say 100grams of beef:

^^Cumulatively, the amino pool is improved... particularly where BCAAs are concerned.

You have a denser pool of amino acids... which the body then uses for various processes. It isn't about protein solely... It is about amino acids. Nutrition, particularly sports nutrition, is about looking at things in tandem: the sum of all factors.

Protein foods are complete, but their ratio of amino acids aren't equal. Some are high in methionine (for example), while others are low. I suggest that my clients count all grams of protein (particularly when dieting down), as each one is usable and impactful.

Epic post.

I actually tend to include grams of protein when cutting because I tend to eat less carbs so there isn't much coming from carb sources anyhow. When bulking I tend to not include them because I'd get too hungry! ;-)

**Narkissos** · 06-14-2012, 01:50 PM

Originally Posted by gbrice75

I agree 100%! I always snicker when I see 160lb guys listing their daily macros and it's something like:

450g protein
250g carbs
60g fat

And they wonder why they're not growing. All that protein... such a waste of calories that would be better utilized coming by way of carbs and possibly a bit more fat.

Agreed 10000000000000.486595689346893%

Before the boards, I'd been competing successfully for years... and I'd never envisioned taking in more than 200grams of protein per day. Some of the biggest guys I know never go over 250 grams. When I joined here, I realized just how far against the grain that approach to dieting went.

Yet, my physique/conditioning and theirs spoke volumes.

Nowadays, I eat more protein... Not because I believe I have to, but because I really like the taste of meat LOL.

That said, I still do protein cycling...dropping my protein low (by internet message board standards). My business partner, who is a former client of mine, looks bigger, is stronger and more ripped (less than 8% year-round) than most posters... on a lot of boards. And, he's a natty. He's currently on 100-150 grams of protein (total) per day... and the most he goes up to when he cycles his protein up is 175-200 grams.

**oscarjones** · 06-14-2012, 01:58 PM

Originally Posted by Narkissos

Agreed 10000000000000.486595689346893%

Before the boards, I'd been competing successfully for years... and I'd never envisioned taking in more than 200grams of protein per day. Some of the biggest guys I know never go over 250 grams. When I joined here, I realized just how far against the grain that approach to dieting went.

Yet, my physique/conditioning and theirs spoke volumes.

Nowadays, I eat more protein... Not because I believe I have to, but because I really like the taste of meat LOL.

That said, I still do protein cycling...dropping my protein low (by internet message board standards). My business partner, who is a former client of mine, looks bigger, is stronger and more ripped (less than 8% year-round) than most posters... on a lot of boards. And, he's a natty. He's currently on 100-150 grams of protein (total) per day... and the most he goes up to when he cycles his protein up is 175-200 grams.

I like to hear stories like this. Thanks for sharing, hopefully more guys will read this and believe it.

**gbrice75** · 06-14-2012, 02:05 PM

Originally Posted by Narkissos

I disagree.

The amino acid profile in the individual foods are not complete.

However, you won't be consuming these foods alone... correct?

The amino acids assimilated will contribute to the amino acid pool.

e.g.

A person were to consume a grain-based carb (for example), yielding 8.1gr protein.. This amounts to:

Plus this breakdown from a "complete protein"... say 100grams of beef:

^^Cumulatively, the amino pool is improved... particularly where BCAAs are concerned.

You have a denser pool of amino acids... which the body then uses for various processes. It isn't about protein solely... It is about amino acids. Nutrition, particularly sports nutrition, is about looking at things in tandem: the sum of all factors.

Protein foods are complete, but their ratio of amino acids aren't equal. Some are high in methionine (for example), while others are low. I suggest that my clients count all grams of protein (particularly when dieting down), as each one is usable and impactful.

Jesus Christ Nark!!! Concise and thorough as usual; always enjoy your posts.

Originally Posted by Narkissos

Nowadays, I eat more protein... Not because I believe I have to, but because I really like the taste of meat LOL.

For instance.... a bacon wrapped, deep fried whole chicken stuffed with all kinds of shit!?!?

**JAB1** · 06-14-2012, 07:36 PM

Man this is confusing... lol. I dont go crazy with proteing but do shoot for 1.5-2 per lb. My thinking waas in line with Narkissos in that I eat multipe sources per meal (meat, carb source, broccoli, fishflax pills for most meals, a postworkout shake and a casien shake and natty pb before bed) so I assumed that even an incomplete protien would mix in with everything else. I wont be cutting for a while im in maint now and will bulk in a bit. Now Im confused on macro/daily totals. I think I will just keep adding in everything. But if i dont, and im short on what I want for protein because I am not counting anything from carb source, etc, and then I add in more protein to compensate, wont that up my total daily intake and make it not in line with my goal??? Dont mean to hijack thread, just trying to keep it going. OP you thought you had a dumb question but it was a damn good one, I never would have thought to not count every macro I eat toward totals..

**DanB** · 06-14-2012, 08:21 PM

Originally Posted by Narkissos

Agreed 10000000000000.486595689346893%

Before the boards, I'd been competing successfully for years... and I'd never envisioned taking in more than 200grams of protein per day. Some of the biggest guys I know never go over 250 grams. When I joined here, I realized just how far against the grain that approach to dieting went.

Yet, my physique/conditioning and theirs spoke volumes.

Nowadays, I eat more protein... Not because I believe I have to, but because I really like the taste of meat LOL.

That said, I still do protein cycling...dropping my protein low (by internet message board standards). My business partner, who is a former client of mine, looks bigger, is stronger and more ripped (less than 8% year-round) than most posters... on a lot of boards. And, he's a natty. He's currently on 100-150 grams of protein (total) per day... and the most he goes up to when he cycles his protein up is 175-200 grams.

Nark you mentioned protein cycling

Yes I can Google it no problem

But if you care to share an opinion/experience on the subject as this is a new concept to me

Mabey I took you up wrong?

**Turkish Juicer** · 06-14-2012, 11:29 PM

Protein cycling has its benefits.

One angle has to do with receptor sensitivity, similar to the effects of carb cycling.

Another angle has to do with longevity, where you give your kidneys & liver a break when you go on a low(er) protein intake phase. Not to mention digestive system also benefits from this.

One can also bring in the aspect of money, protein is always the most expensive macro, regardless of where you live.

Pro BB cycle protein, as a matter of fact, but they won't talk about it in interviews conducted by supplement industry owned BB and fitness magazines. You will only read about how they adjust their carbs and fats, not protein.

**Narkissos** · 06-15-2012, 04:03 PM

Originally Posted by oscarjones

I like to hear stories like this. Thanks for sharing, hopefully more guys will read this and believe it.

Never a prob mate... That's what I'm here for.

Originally Posted by gbrice75

Jesus Christ Nark!!! Concise and thorough as usual; always enjoy your posts.

Anytime GB.

Had a few minutes for surfing, so thought I'd check in here.

Originally Posted by gbrice75

For instance.... a bacon wrapped, deep fried whole chicken stuffed with all kinds of shit!?!?

Hell yes.

This weekend I'm hosting another "Epic Meal Time" event. Bumping up my intermittent fasts duration so I can gorge like a caveman on Saturday. ;-)

On the menu so far: Whole chicken, stuffed with pork sausages, seasoned minced beef, wrapped with a bacon weave... Baked, then deep-fried.

Also gonna do some bacon-wrapped steaks. Will figure out the rest when I hit the supermarket on Saturday afternoon

**gbrice75** · 06-16-2012, 07:40 AM

Originally Posted by Narkissos

Hell yes.

This weekend I'm hosting another "Epic Meal Time" event. Bumping up my intermittent fasts duration so I can gorge like a caveman on Saturday. ;-)

On the menu so far: Whole chicken, stuffed with pork sausages, seasoned minced beef, wrapped with a bacon weave... Baked, then deep-fried.

Also gonna do some bacon-wrapped steaks. Will figure out the rest when I hit the supermarket on Saturday afternoon

Hmmm.... with good eats like this, I'm gonna have to think of a way to make that trip to Barbados happen... to celebrate your bday ...