Big Buy, Big Steps - Nutrition Q&A

[Mr3ig]

Well, i'm 34 years old, originally from the UK but moved to Toronto, Canada, three years ago. I'm 6'2", 285lbs at aprox 24% body fat.
Having been training on and off for 15 years, I have always eaten like I've been training which is most likely why i have put on so much weight and body fat.
A single parent father, to a beautiful and intelligent two-year old daughter, I have to be the best role model i can be for her... plus i have the desire to be in the best shape I have ever been in my life... RIGHT NOW.

I have done half a dozen courses, although admittedly not for seven or eight years, which includes test (various types), Sus, Deca , and more. I plan to take this very seriously and have my eyes on G.H., but I have to get there first.

Am currently on my first course in a long time;

Week 1 - 250ml Test. Eth./ Diet = No carbs, no sugar
Week 2 - 250ml Test Eth./ Diet = No carbs, no sugar
Week 3 - 500ml Test. Eth./ Diet = No Carbs, no sugar (i lost perhaps over 5% body fat, 2" off the waist, gained some good lean muscle/ good gains)
Week 4 - 500ml Test Eth. / Diet = Carbs, minimal sugar (ONE WEEK ONLY), a cheat day saw me grow and i decided to continue carbs for a short while
Week 5 - 500ml Test Eth. / Diet = Low carbs, no sugar (CURRENT WEEK)

GYM
I have been focusing on weaker areas for 5-7 sets, 4-6 reps
Heavy weights 3-4 sets generally, in effort to maximise growth

SUPPLIMENTS
Vita Freak Vitamins
Rivalus + Syntha 6 Protein blends
Kaizen Whey isolate protein
Cellucor D4 Fat burner
L-Carnatine
Plenty of water, coffee and green tea.

PROBLEM HISTORY
[LIST=1][*]I have suffered with gyno since being at school, and had a fat removal op when 18/19 years old. This was the beginning of my motivation for the gym, and although at times i suffer I believe that once I am in shape again I can re-evaluate my progress and areas to be worked.
[LIST=2] My VO2 Max levels are poor, and so is my cardio (admittedly). This is something i have to work on, although it has slightly improved with reccent BJuiTjuitso classes, which has now stopped.

1. My sleep is an issue, as I have always had a problem with.

Please feel free to ask me any questions, i'm very calm and relaxed and won't bite (unless i'm gripping that cold hard steel in the gym).


Attachment 133272

My diet is high in protein and fat, almost no carbs and strictly no sugar. My body went through ketosis for over 2 weeks which was rough, but i ended up loosing a lot of weight (pre photo above).

An example of my no carb diet would be:

GYM at 7:15AM for an hour including Cardio at finish (powerball smashed, plank, etc)

BREAKFAST
170g Steak and a boiled egg
Protein shake

SNACK
Protein shake

GYM at lunch (twice a week for 40 mins)

Lunch
240g Chicken breast, stewed tomatoes with cumin and paprika
Protein Shake

snack
Nuts (unsalted almonds, etc)

Dinner
Roast chicken + Veggies
Protein Shake

[Back In Black]

Hello big man!

So, we're gonna let others debate your cycle before you decide exactly what you want to do with it. We'll stick to your diet over in this thread.

I think we have 2 options. Either continue with your keto, which needs modifying, or going with a more straight forward low carb approach. They'll both work equally well so it's up to you how you want to proceed and how it fits your lifestyle.

[Back In Black]

If you go keto you'll need to refeed heavily on carbs 1 day a week. Otherwise you are asking for muscle loss. This is called a cyclical keto diet. A straight keto of no carbs over an extended period of time would only suit those who don't exercise.

Do you have any idea of the macro's and cals you are ingesting on the above plan?

The alternative is a low carb diet. You don't have to go crazy low, somewhere between 20-30%. Fats should be 20% with the remainder from protein.

I'd recommend an initial caloric intake of 2500 per day. This figure can always be adjusted depending on your gains/losses.

If you have some time have a quick look over some of this thread from somebody that initially used a 60/20/20 split.

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...=#.URlrBSggGc0

I've got a good feeling about you!

[951thompson]

Your eating too much protein if your going for ketotis, you need 5/35/60 split (carbs/pro/fat) to get into ketotis. When your body has no carbs to use as fuel, if protein is too high,your body will break down your protein to use as its main source of fuel, where as on keto, you aim is to get your body to use fat as your bodies main saurce of fuel.

[Mr3ig]

BIB, thank you. I appreciate the time to look at my info and your respected advice.

I would never have known about the cyclical keto diet, refeeding once per week,although it makes perfect sense. In Keto i would feel tired and constantly hungry, also it is hard to both concentrate and focus. I shall begin day 1 tomorrow, as i have no gym today because i'm changing to a local one which comes with a good training partner.

Attached is a day taken from my food log last week. It's tough to keep a food log every day, but its so worth it when i do (for moments like this).

FOOD LOG 30th JAN 2013


NEW BIB NUTRITON PLAN
Protein Goal 573g
One Refeed per week - I think that i will keep a refeed on a weekday to stay disciplined other wise i'd eat all day on the weekend.

PROJECTED WORKOUT
07:00HRS - 60 min heavy weights/ two muscle groups/ opposites
13:00HRS - 40 mins cardio

QUESTION(S)
BIB - Do you think i should cut out dairy from my food intake to make/ if any changes to my nutrition?

I don't eat anything (including protein shakes) for at least 2 hours before bed. In actual fact, that is the single biggest reason i put on so much weight, eating IN bed before sleeping.

MOTIVATION
10/10. - I'm genuinely excited about the path ahead, look forward to achieving discussed goals, a respectable BF%, a HUGE increase in building lean muscle and sharing with success with you.

SUGGESTION AND/ OR CHANGES?
ALL are welcomed and respected.

961thompson - Thank you for the interesting thought, I always thought that the amount of protein (targeted at 573g oer day) would have been sufficient, but i shall research more. Thanks.

[Back In Black]

Mate, as 951 says, your figures for a successful keto are way out of whack.

You need to be looking along the lines of this

185g pro
180g fat
24g carbs

Take a read of this too which will detail the recommended training and refeed.

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...t#.URpKMSggGc1

Fairy will generally have too many carbs for you to consider, but if it doesn't, it's fine. Cheese will likely feature in your diet somewhere.

[Mr3ig]

What a good article, thank you for sharing. I am printing this off to keep right now.

Isn't 185g of protein to less for someone of my size and build?
If i reduce my protein amount from 573g to 185g should i stop lifting heavy and focus back on 3 sets of 12 reps per exercise?
If given this plan, how long should i impliment this to my nutrition, until my BF% drops or for a cycle?

Let me know and i'll adjust to what you think is best suited.

Thanks again.

[951thompson]

What a good article, thank you for sharing. I am printing this off to keep right now.

Isn't 185g of protein to less for someone of my size and build?
If i reduce my protein amount from 573g to 185g should i stop lifting heavy and focus back on 3 sets of 12 reps per exercise?
If given this plan, how long should i impliment this to my nutrition, until my BF% drops or for a cycle?

Let me know and i'll adjust to what you think is best suited.

Thanks again.

It will take you around 3 to 7 days to get into ketotis. Once ketotis kicks in you will burn fat rapid. Can I suggest you doing one 24 hour fast per week. While in ketotis your body is living off fat and bodyfat. If you fast your body will have no other option but to eat your bodyfat (while your fasted.) (this = turbo fat loss)

[Back In Black]

Workouts are detailed in the link I listed. Follow them as closely as you can.

The 185g protein is just a % of the calories i think you should be eating to get results. Successful keto diets are very specific. You're not really going to gain muscle in this but your bodyfat as it is should spare any muscle loss, provided you follow the refeed instructions and the other 6 days you are following the numbers I listed.

[951thompson]

May I also add, make sure you eat some broccoli or some form of fibre. Because you could end up shitting out your in intestines (piles) I am talking from personal experience lol (it's not pleasant)
Some of the foods I liked to eat while on this diet, eggs, cheese, deep fry every thing, fried chicken wings, belly pork. Animal fat is probs the best fat you can have on this diet, bacon, all the fatty cuts of meat you can find,ask your butcher for his fat trimmings.
Personally I don't like this diet, not because it does'nt work, it really does. I don't like the way it made me feel. Made me feel really drained. It does do the job tho, good luck with it!

[Back In Black]

With all due respect 951, that is a particularly unhealthy way to run a keto diet. It would make me feel like sh1t too. Some animal fat is fine but there's no need to go out the way to try and ingest as much saturated fat as you can when there are much healthier (Essential Fatty Acids) to be had. Omega 3 oils, flax oil, EVOO.

[951thompson]

With all due respect 951, that is a particularly unhealthy way to run a keto diet. It would make me feel like sh1t too. Some animal fat is fine but there's no need to go out the way to try and ingest as much saturated fat as you can when there are much healthier (Essential Fatty Acids) to be had. Omega 3 oils, flax oil, EVOO.

I've read alot about keto, this is what the experts advise. They claim that animal fat is the best fat to consume on this diet. I guess this is because it's similar to our own bodyfat, which is what we are trying to encourage our body to eat.

[Mr3ig]

This is very interesting.

BIB i will deffinately follow that workouts and amounts specified in that article as follows:

"pro split into 6 meals carbs done in first 3 meals..

...60 mins of cardio 6 days a week plus 3 lifting sessions plus 80hr work weeks is a lot. You will just need to work out a life balance. Don't want to be burnt out and the first thing that gives is the diet because you have no time to be planned...

Cals and macro's look good. As long as your food choices were right we are off to a good start!

Your fat loss will mostly be determined by diet and cardio. IMHO your weight training should be geared around, at worst, maintaining LBM. If you have been slack recently you may be able to build a little LBM in the process. When cutting I alternate 1 week of 6-8 reps and the alternate week of 10-12 reps. This enables me to keep or increase my strength andfor me, helps me maintain most LBM. All my lifting is done within 50 minutes.

But, if you are struggling to do cardio, then a circuit training type approach may help but don't expect to get much stronger."

QUESTION
What is LBM, IMHO and IF (abbreviations found here and on other posts)?
Can i eat dairy (cheese, milk)?

Thank you 951, that's interesting advice but it can't work for me. 3 weeks ago I had only 2 pieces of fried chicken/drumsticks (Popeyes) and not only did it pass through me within three hours but i felt terrible. I felt sick and it knocked me out early at 8pm that evening (slept well though). My saviour was plenty of green tea to flush it out that day and the next. Perhaps you are right, but it certainly didnt work for me.

[Back In Black]

I've read alot about keto, this is what the experts advise. They claim that animal fat is the best fat to consume on this diet. I guess this is because it's similar to our own bodyfat, which is what we are trying to encourage our body to eat.

I've read a bit too. Ultimately there is actually little data/studies in the types of fat in a keto diet. Although one study did suggest that corn oil was a preferred choice over olive oil in terms of thermogenesis. Many individuals actually find that increased consumption of unsaturated fats tend to increase fat loss over saturated fats. There are studies that subjects cholesterol levels have decreased On A keto when more unsaturated fats are consumed.

To minimise potential health problems I would consider the majority of fats from unsaturated sources to be consumed. Obviously some saturated fats would, and should, be consumed also.

[Lunk1]

I dont want to derail this thread but since there are fewer idoits here..you NEED on that adex immediatly if you plan to stay on cycle. Controlling your E2 levels is paramount!

[Back In Black]

LBM - Lean Body Mass

IMHO - in my humble opinion (also IMO, no humble)

IF - intermittent fasting. Typically Where you consume all your calories for the day in a short 'feeding window', typically 4-6 hours.

[Mr3ig]

I dont want to derail this thread but since there are fewer idoits here..you NEED on that adex immediatly if you plan to stay on cycle. Controlling your E2 levels is paramount!

I can get both Generic Teragon Armidex and Sandoz Anastrozole. What and how much would you recommend? Thanks Lunk1

BIB So this is what i have understood for my set nutrition plan;
Nutrition Plan
6 keto days per week
185g pro
180g fat
24g carbs (preferably fibre/ veggies) to prevent piles! Thank you 951.
1 Refeeding/ loading day per week of carbs for 12-18 hours per week with little fats for the day, consisting of a grueling cardio and heavy weight session before loading/feeding. NO CARDIO ON LOADING DAYS, only weights.

Workouts are to be tailored AROUND MY DIET,
Monday-Wed = Weights (depleting my liver and muscles glycogen)
Monday - Sat = Cardio
Sunday = Heavy weights (with pre workout suppliments) total bidy workout before carb-loading/ refeeding

Does this sound good to you?

I'm still nervous about the 185g protein, perhaps because for years i have always aimed to 2x/3x the protein in my diet. But i'm going to follow your teachings and impliment them from tomorrow if you think that the above text is solid.

Many thanks.

3igz

[Back In Black]

Looks great mate. You might not wanna lift on Monday if Sunday is your final depletion workout. You can do cardio as and when too.

Don't sweat the protein dropping mate, keto is a different ball game. Even if/when you come off keto your protein requirements aren't as much as you think they are.

So, when does it start?

[Back In Black]

I dont want to derail this thread but since there are fewer idoits here..you NEED on that adex immediatly if you plan to stay on cycle. Controlling your E2 levels is paramount!

NP mate, you're welcome over here anytime you like!

[Lunk1]

Use the Adex at .25mg EOD to start...moniter E2 sides and adjust if neccessary!

[--->>405<<---]

This is very interesting.

BIB i will deffinately follow that workouts and amounts specified in that article as follows:

"pro split into 6 meals carbs done in first 3 meals..

...60 mins of cardio 6 days a week plus 3 lifting sessions plus 80hr work weeks is a lot. You will just need to work out a life balance. Don't want to be burnt out and the first thing that gives is the diet because you have no time to be planned...

Cals and macro's look good. As long as your food choices were right we are off to a good start!

Your fat loss will mostly be determined by diet and cardio. IMHO your weight training should be geared around, at worst, maintaining LBM. If you have been slack recently you may be able to build a little LBM in the process. When cutting I alternate 1 week of 6-8 reps and the alternate week of 10-12 reps. This enables me to keep or increase my strength andfor me, helps me maintain most LBM. All my lifting is done within 50 minutes.

But, if you are struggling to do cardio, then a circuit training type approach may help but don't expect to get much stronger."

QUESTION
What is LBM, IMHO and IF (abbreviations found here and on other posts)?
Can i eat dairy (cheese, milk)?

Thank you 951, that's interesting advice but it can't work for me. 3 weeks ago I had only 2 pieces of fried chicken/drumsticks (Popeyes) and not only did it pass through me within three hours but i felt terrible. I felt sick and it knocked me out early at 8pm that evening (slept well though). My saviour was plenty of green tea to flush it out that day and the next. Perhaps you are right, but it certainly didnt work for me.

HEY this looks very famiiiiiiiiillllllllllllllliaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrr rr................. (my mind is like a steel trap!)

[Back In Black]

HEY this looks very famiiiiiiiiillllllllllllllliaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrr rr.................

I knew you'd get in here before long

Mr3ig, this guy used to be my poster boy. Then he all got all cleverer than me and looks much better than me. For now it's his log I suggested you look at.

[Mr3ig]

LOL, yes yes Mr 405! I hope you didnt mind that i helped myself to your memory cortex and sucked it dry with a straw! It's well received.

Thank you BIB, on that note i have actually tried to look at a few profiles, including the "poster boy" Mr 405 but it says i dont have permission Do you guys have any progress pics to share? I'm already motivated and inspired, but love success stories to light a match under my chair!

Thanks for everything guys, these two days here have been so beneficial and i cant wait to get started.

I'm going to start tomorrow, even have a new gym to goto with a training partner (as opposed to training alone).

I have a good feeling about this... and good feeling about all of you guys.

Thank you

[Mr3ig]

Question

What's Macros?

[--->>405<<---]

I knew you'd get in here before long

Mr3ig, this guy used to be my poster boy. Then he all got all cleverer than me and looks much better than me. For now it's his log I suggested you look at.

LOL... funny fellow.. what do u mean used to be? u disowning me now pal!

[Shsm]

Question

What's Macros?

Macronutrients, brother. Carbohydrates, Protein, and Fat.

[--->>405<<---]

big feel free to use my thread man thats what its there for! i have a couple pics for u here ill post. BIB will take care of u!

[Mr3ig]

big feel free to use my thread man thats what its there for! i have a couple pics for u here ill post. BIB will take care of u!

That is fantastic!!!! What a transformation!!!

Was that all on the diet and workout planned 405? Congrats, you've become my posterboy now too!

[Mr3ig]

Macronutrients, brother. Carbohydrates, Protein, and Fat.

Thank you Shsm

[Back In Black]

LOL... funny fellow.. what do u mean used to be? u disowning me now pal!

Never, but I can't take much credit from a certain point mate

[Back In Black]

big feel free to use my thread man thats what its there for! i have a couple pics for u here ill post. BIB will take care of u!

I forget how hairy and white you were. And how shit your duds were

[951thompson]

I've read a bit too. Ultimately there is actually little data/studies in the types of fat in a keto diet. Although one study did suggest that corn oil was a preferred choice over olive oil in terms of thermogenesis. Many individuals actually find that increased consumption of unsaturated fats tend to increase fat loss over saturated fats. There are studies that subjects cholesterol levels have decreased On A keto when more unsaturated fats are consumed.

To minimise potential health problems I would consider the majority of fats from unsaturated sources to be consumed. Obviously some saturated fats would, and should, be consumed also.

I've read two books on keto diets that promote eating alot of animal fat, one author I know alot of people respect around here (Lyle McDonald) promotes eating alot of animal fat, if you try to get 180 gram of fat from purely unsaturated fat your gonna have a hard time, unless you down bottles of flaxseed oil, which would be unpleasant,your going to have to live on liquid oil diet, it's unrealistic to think you can get 180g fat purely from unsaturated fats, 180 gram is alot of fat.eating purely healthy fat is unrealistic, on keto you will have to eat alot of egg yolks, cheese and other saturated fats.

This is my opinion, no disrespect intended, I have alot of respect for you and your knowledge, I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on this one lol

@op,,, good luck with it

[Mr3ig]

Thanks 951, that certainly pushes for more research.

BIB, here's my plan;

MONDAY
185g P/ 180g F/ 24g C
Weights + Cardio

TUESDAY
185g P/ 180g F/ 24g C
Weights + Cardio

WEDNESDAY
185g P/ 180g F/ 24g C
Weights + Cardio

THURSDAY
185g P/ 180g F/ 24g C
Cardio

FRIDAY
185g P/ 180g F/ 24g C
Cardio

SATURDAY
185g P/ 180g F/ 24g C
Cardio

SUNDAY
Weights - Heavy Grueling All Body
Carb Loading 12-18 Hrs -
80g>120g x 5 meals + 3-5g Creatine, water , High Protein but No Fats, No Fructose.
(Dont be suprised if consuming 10,000 calories for the day)

NOTES
Strictly NO fruits, breads , grains, candies, cookies, deserts, catsup, dressings, cereals, etc., etc.
Keep the daily carb count at 20g - 40g per day, preferably green vegetables for fibre.
Centre workout around the diet.

Also found this, but i guess its part of a two day refeed;

CARB LOAD RULES


STAGE 1
(Initial 24 Hours)

Feedings - 12
Carbs - 16x lean bodyweight in kg
Type -glucose polymers and starches(malto dextrin is what i use)

Water is actually more important in the carb load period,because it is estimated that every gram of glycogen stored is associated with about 2.7g of water.

Meal 1-4 -Drink 2 grams carbs per kg of lean bodyweight of liquid simple sugared or glucose polymers per meal.WHEY SHOULD BE ADDED TO THE LIQUID DRINKS.

MEALS 5-8-These should be liquid carbs and solid high glycemic carbs(such as cornflakes) Eat 1.5 g of carbs per kg of lean bodyweight at each meal

Meal 9-12-Finally you get to eat some real food eat.5grams of solid starches and some liquid carbs per kg of lbm at each meal

STAGE2

Feedings-12
Type-Mixed,primarily starches

MEAL1-4-Each meal 1gram carbs per kg of lbm SINCE INSULIN SENSITIVITY IS DECLINING YOU SHOULD EAT MORE SOLID CARBS AND PROTEINS!

MEAL5-8-Eat .75 grams of carbs per lbm of normal food (rice,pasta,potatoes)

MEAL9-12-.5GRAMS OF CARBS. Since you want to begin lowering blood glucose before you begin another week of carb depletion,you should eat just the opposite of what you would expect! Go back to simple liquid carbs and proteins.Basically you want a sugar crash to get you into low blood sugar. Yes insulin is higher but the actual amount of carbs per meal is quite low.

[Back In Black]

I've read two books on keto diets that promote eating alot of animal fat, one author I know alot of people respect around here (Lyle McDonald) promotes eating alot of animal fat, if you try to get 180 gram of fat from purely unsaturated fat your gonna have a hard time, unless you down bottles of flaxseed oil, which would be unpleasant,your going to have to live on liquid oil diet, it's unrealistic to think you can get 180g fat purely from unsaturated fats, 180 gram is alot of fat.eating purely healthy fat is unrealistic, on keto you will have to eat alot of egg yolks, cheese and other saturated fats.

This is my opinion, no disrespect intended, I have alot of respect for you and your knowledge, I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on this one lol

@op,,, good luck with it

Is this Lyles Ketogenic Diet book?