Keto + intermittent fasting, yes or no?

[smeeto]

So I've been cutting for awhile now with carb cycling which altough it's been working, hasn't been going quite as fast as I'd like it to and i absolutely HATE cutting, so I'm trying to get it done asap. I have no problem sticking to my diet, but I hate it.
Monday I started something new to change it up a little, after researching intermittent fasting for awhile i decided to give it a go, mostly as I really do like to have large meals when I eat so it works perfectly for me in that sense, I can get though the day without eating and get to eat my fill when i do. I also combined it with a ketogenic diet to make it go a little faster.
I know that ketogenic diets do break down muscle faster than carb cycling or plain deficets, but I'm willing to take the hit to get it over with faster. My main question is, with doing IF and keto at the same time, how should i reflect that in my macros? Im eating at about 600 under maintenance now and I'm wondering if that's too much given tat I'm doing IF and keto. Also I am doing refeed days on weekends in which I am eating withing 200 of maintenance with much higher carbs, about 60% of my calories are from carbs on those days. I have specific stats if their needed, but I'm always second guessing myself while cutting and some reinforcement from a vet would be great.

[gbrice75]

So I've been cutting for awhile now with carb cycling which altough it's been working, hasn't been going quite as fast as I'd like it to and i absolutely HATE cutting, so I'm trying to get it done asap. I have no problem sticking to my diet, but I hate it.
Monday I started something new to change it up a little, after researching intermittent fasting for awhile i decided to give it a go, mostly as I really do like to have large meals when I eat so it works perfectly for me in that sense, I can get though the day without eating and get to eat my fill when i do. I also combined it with a ketogenic diet to make it go a little faster.
I know that ketogenic diets do break down muscle faster than carb cycling or plain deficets, but I'm willing to take the hit to get it over with faster. My main question is, with doing IF and keto at the same time, how should i reflect that in my macros?

Personally, I wouldn't combine IF and keto. IMO it's a recipe for disaster. It's easy to say now that you're willing to take that hit, but I don't know about how happy you'll be with the finished product. I've never had much luck with keto diets by themselves, let alone adding in IFing. I lost a lot of weight and strength, not much bodyfat. I know some people do see great results though. It's individualistic. It's your body and you need to experiment to find what does and doesn't work for you, but honestly, i'd recommend against this idea.

If you're seeing less than acceptable results, i'd look at the current routine before making a drastic change like this. What does your carb cycle look like now? What does your training regimen consist of? Can you add more cardio and/or increase activity in some other way? I'd look at all of this before getting too extreme.

Im eating at about 600 under maintenance now and I'm wondering if that's too much given tat I'm doing IF and keto. Also I am doing refeed days on weekends in which I am eating withing 200 of maintenance with much higher carbs, about 60% of my calories are from carbs on those days. I have specific stats if their needed, but I'm always second guessing myself while cutting and some reinforcement from a vet would be great.

You're continuing to eat under maintenance on your refeed day? Why? Did it occur to you that your metabolism may be responding to a constant/drawn out caloric deficit and maybe that's why you're progress has slowed? I would, at the very least eat AT maintenance, but ideally, over. Give your body a break. Feed it. Let it recover. You have 6 other days a week to work towards burning bodyfat.

[smeeto]

Personally, I wouldn't combine IF and keto. IMO it's a recipe for disaster. It's easy to say now that you're willing to take that hit, but I don't know about how happy you'll be with the finished product. I've never had much luck with keto diets by themselves, let alone adding in IFing. I lost a lot of weight and strength, not much bodyfat. I know some people do see great results though. It's individualistic. It's your body and you need to experiment to find what does and doesn't work for you, but honestly, i'd recommend against this idea.

If you're seeing less than acceptable results, i'd look at the current routine before making a drastic change like this. What does your carb cycle look like now? What does your training regimen consist of? Can you add more cardio and/or increase activity in some other way? I'd look at all of this before getting too extreme.



You're continuing to eat under maintenance on your refeed day? Why? Did it occur to you that your metabolism may be responding to a constant/drawn out caloric deficit and maybe that's why you're progress has slowed?

If you wouldn't combine both, what do you think about carb cycling and IF? After only two days of IF i already really like it so i would like to keep it in the picture. If i were to do car cycling and IF would the 600 deficit still be fine? Like i said, i was seeing results with carb cycling just not quite as fast as i would like, so i looked to keto. If it really will break down that much muscle, then I'm willing to draw out the cut a little longer and slower. The hardest part of cutting for me is just figuring out exactly what to do.

The carb cycling that i was doing was 1 day of no carbs, 4 days low (10%) carbs, and 2 days of re-feed. I posted a threat a little while back going into complete detail on it, I made the modifications that you recommended then, such as decreasing my fats/ increasing protien and basing my workout around my carb consumption per day. The amount of lifting/ cardio that i am doing is still the same as i posted on that thread.

When i said ~200 on re-feed days i meant about 200 over maintenance, my bad for not being clear.

[smeeto]

I was going to do the carb cycle plan that you gave to me on that thread actually before i decided in IF keto, but if thats a bad idea then how would the carb cycle that you gave to me then do with IF? Here is what you said was your last cycle:
Monday - moderate carb day - 275g protein, 105g carbs, 45g fat - heavy workout day, big muscle groups + cardio

Tuesday - moderate carb day - 275g protein, 105g carbs, 45g fat - heavy workout day, big muscle groups + cardio

Wednesday - moderate carb day - 275g protein, 105g carbs, 45g fat - light workout day, isolation work, abs, etc + cardio

Thursday - no carb day (fibrous veggies only) - 275g protein, 50g carbs (via fibrous veggies), 45g fat - depletion type workout - cardio intensive, high volume, high rep + cardio

Friday - no carb day (fibrous veggies only) - 275g protein, 50g carbs (via fibrous veggies), 45g fat - total body depletive workout, cardio intensive, high volume, high rep + cardio

Saturday - no carb day (fibrous veggies only) - 275g protein, 50g carbs (via fibrous veggies), 45g fat - extended cardio (usually 1 hour)

Sunday - high carb day - 275g protein, 250g carbs, 45g fat - Complete rest day, no training or cardio

[cj111]

IF is meant to be used with higher carbs, not no carbs... Keto+IF= bad idea.

[gbrice75]

If you wouldn't combine both, what do you think about carb cycling and IF? After only two days of IF i already really like it so i would like to keep it in the picture.

Pretty much what I did the last time I ran IF. Carbs on workout days, low/no carbs on non-workout days. Nice and simple.

If i were to do car cycling and IF would the 600 deficit still be fine?

Maybe. But since you're carb cycling, it'd be impossible to maintain the same 600 calorie deficit every day. Your calories should change as carbs are raised/lowered.

Like i said, i was seeing results with carb cycling just not quite as fast as i would like, so i looked to keto. If it really will break down that much muscle, then I'm willing to draw out the cut a little longer and slower. The hardest part of cutting for me is just figuring out exactly what to do.

You may not experience muscle breakdown to a great extent, who knows. I just wouldn't be willing to chance it. Too much damn work gets put into building muscle just to piss it away in an effort to see fast results. Remember that a cut should be a slow, steady process. I was losing 1lb a week on average after I had my diet dialed in, and was perfectly happy with that.

The carb cycling that i was doing was 1 day of no carbs, 4 days low (10%) carbs, and 2 days of re-feed. I posted a threat a little while back going into complete detail on it, I made the modifications that you recommended then, such as decreasing my fats/ increasing protien and basing my workout around my carb consumption per day.

And I was ok with you have 1 no carb day, 4 days of 10% total calories from carbs (which is essentially still no carbs), and then 2 refeed days?!? Can you link that thread? Sorry, I don't like that plan at all today, and doubt I did then. If anything, I may have misunderstood. With 5 days having carbs that low, you were already in a quasi-keto diet. 2 refeed days - of course you're not seeing results fast enough - it's overkill! 1 day is plenty to restore glycogen. Anything more and you risk 'spillover' into fat cells.

When i said ~200 on re-feed days i meant about 200 over maintenance, my bad for not being clear.

Ok, good, noted.

I was going to do the carb cycle plan that you gave to me on that thread actually before i decided in IF keto, but if thats a bad idea then how would the carb cycle that you gave to me then do with IF? Here is what you said was your last cycle:
Monday - moderate carb day - 275g protein, 105g carbs, 45g fat - heavy workout day, big muscle groups + cardio

Tuesday - moderate carb day - 275g protein, 105g carbs, 45g fat - heavy workout day, big muscle groups + cardio

Wednesday - moderate carb day - 275g protein, 105g carbs, 45g fat - light workout day, isolation work, abs, etc + cardio

Thursday - no carb day (fibrous veggies only) - 275g protein, 50g carbs (via fibrous veggies), 45g fat - depletion type workout - cardio intensive, high volume, high rep + cardio

Friday - no carb day (fibrous veggies only) - 275g protein, 50g carbs (via fibrous veggies), 45g fat - total body depletive workout, cardio intensive, high volume, high rep + cardio

Saturday - no carb day (fibrous veggies only) - 275g protein, 50g carbs (via fibrous veggies), 45g fat - extended cardio (usually 1 hour)

Sunday - high carb day - 275g protein, 250g carbs, 45g fat - Complete rest day, no training or cardio

Big difference from what you were doing, wouldn't you say?

Obviously, I like my carb cycle. It worked well for me, and in fact I'll be starting this exact plan (slightly modified macros to reflect changes in body composition) in 2.5 weeks. Just remember that you would need to change the macros/calories to tailor to your stats.

[smeeto]

Obviously, I like my carb cycle. It worked well for me, and in fact I'll be starting this exact plan (slightly modified macros to reflect changes in body composition) in 2.5 weeks. Just remember that you would need to change the macros/calories to tailor to your stats.

So if I were to switch my carb cycle plan to something similar to yours, would IF fit into it or should i scrap that?

[gbrice75]

So if I were to switch my carb cycle plan so something similar to yours, would IF fit into it or should i scrap that?

I always build my carb cycle around my training regimen. If my carb cycle compliments your routine, then sure - incorporate it with IF.

[951thompson]

I respectfully disagree, I think keto and IF work well together. Think about it, on keto your body breaks fat down into ketones to use as its main source of energy.
So when in a fasted state, while in ketotis, with no food in your belly, your body has no other option but to breakdown bodyfat into ketones to use as energy. I believe this is good, I have tried this approach with good results, not leangains style IF more eat stop eat style (24 hour fasts)

[gbrice75]

I respectfully disagree, I think keto and IF work well together. Think about it, on keto your body breaks fat down into ketones to use as its main source of energy.
So when in a fasted state, while in ketotis, with no food in your belly, your body has no other option but to breakdown bodyfat into ketones to use as energy.

Sure it does. It can breakdown muscle tissue - and WILL do so particularly if/when training or cardio becomes too intense.

I believe this is good, I have tried this approach with good results, not leangains style IF more eat stop eat style (24 hour fasts)

As I said earlier, ultimately the OP needs to decide what makes sense and then put a plan in motion to see how he responds. Admittedly, i'm biased against keto diets due to my own personal history with them, but as stated, that doesn't mean they don't work as I personally know people who have had great success with them.

OP - i'm being nice about it. Ask Marcus300 what he thinks about your idea!!!

[951thompson]

Sure it does. It can breakdown muscle tissue - and WILL do so particularly if/when training or cardio becomes too intense.

As I said earlier, ultimately the OP needs to decide what makes sense and then put a plan in motion to see how he responds. Admittedly, i'm biased against keto diets due to my own personal history with them, but as stated, that doesn't mean they don't work as I personally know people who have had great success with them.

OP - i'm being nice about it. Ask Marcus300 what he thinks about your idea!!!

I would recommend only fasting on none training days. as for breaking down muscle, it would only breakdown as much muscle as when fasting on a full carb diet imo. Probably less on a keto diet, because some of your fat cells have protein in them to use. Plus when fasting on a carb diet your body is going without food, where as on keto your body is still feeding on ketones it's made from bodyfat. So I suspect they would be far less muscle breakdown on fasted keto.

This is an interesting topic, I might ask Lyle McDonald, this very question on his website, see if he has any thoughts on this, I know he's not a fan of fasting so he probably wouldnt like it for that reason.

Interesting discussion, guess we will just have to agree to disagree on this one GB : )

[951thompson]

*Above post edited

[smeeto]

Big difference from what you were doing, wouldn't you say?

Obviously, I like my carb cycle. It worked well for me, and in fact I'll be starting this exact plan (slightly modified macros to reflect changes in body composition) in 2.5 weeks. Just remember that you would need to change the macros/calories to tailor to your stats.

My only question regarding your plan is what exactly do you mean when you say "depletion type workout?"

[gbrice75]

My only question regarding your plan is what exactly do you mean when you say "depletion type workout?"

Workouts whose sole purpose is to deplete glycogen stores (vs. building muscle, etc)

[smeeto]

Workouts whose sole purpose is to deplete glycogen stores (vs. building muscle, etc)

Ah, thanks for clarifying, as well as for all the help. Starting this almost letter for letter tomorrow, I'll update with results in awhile.