what is the best diet for ripping

[freakisallgood]

hello guys,
it's bean a long time, the forum design changed
guys what is the best diet for ripping within 3 months for a person with this stats.

Height: 176 CM
Weight: 90KG
Fat: 25%
Mesomorph

[--->>405<<---]

hey man welcome (back ??)

"ripping" is a bit vague and broad. how much body fat do u want to cut? what is ur goal bf%?

i would suggest starting out with a simple caloric deficit at maybe a 50/30/20 split (pro/carb/fat) and eventually switching it up to maybe some sort of carb cycling approach later down the road when the more simple diet stops producing..

[redz]

Yeah calorie deficit plus start doing fasted cardio every morning.

[riotz0r]

Carb cycling seems to work for most people.... IMO I wouldn't recommend fasted cardio, your body will actually burn muscle in a fasted state... I'm sure you can find something that says fasted cardio is fine and doesn't burn muscle, I have actually had two friends compete in the same physique show together. Both did fasted cardio and both lost a lot of muscle and swore they would never do it again... Do your research I guess and come to your own opinion because you'll be able to find arguments for both sides...

[MuscleInk]

Carb cycling seems to work for most people.... IMO I wouldn't recommend fasted cardio, your body will actually burn muscle in a fasted state... I'm sure you can find something that says fasted cardio is fine and doesn't burn muscle, I have actually had two friends compete in the same physique show together. Both did fasted cardio and both lost a lot of muscle and swore they would never do it again... Do your research I guess and come to your own opinion because you'll be able to find arguments for both sides...

I disagree. Fasted cardio IS an excellent way to burn fat. Yes, a catabolic state is unfriendly to muscle mass however, when done properly and with the right compounds, you CAN minimize catabolic stress.

I do fasted cardio 5x a week and I'm maintaining muscle and strength while losing bf. Fasted cardio does not have to cause muscle waisting if done correctly.

[--->>405<<---]

riotz u need to edit ur post. remove the link..

also ur recommendation of burning muscle doing fasted cardio (especially at 25%bf) is incorrect IMO.. i am sub 10%bf and i do fasted cardio EOD and i havent lost any muscle.. ive been doing this for months sometimes twice per day (both times fasted)..

[mockery]

take 5g bcaa before fasted cardio to help with muscle loss.

[mockery]

fasted cardio has been tested, and you do lose muscle mass depending on a half dozen things. An old article online called the Fasted Cardio Roundtable
Featuring Christian Thibaudeau, Lonnie Lowery, PhD, David Barr, and Dr. John Berardi is a very simple approach and talk about this from a few brilliant minds. There is no wrong or right answer on the topic, but it opens your eyes to the bigger picture if you choose to look into it a bit more in depth.

[baseline_9]

Oh no.... Not another fasted cardio debate....

Look at the bigger picture guys....

Would fasted cardio be catabolic if you were consuming 10000 calories in the day?

Think about it, what's the variable here.... Overall diet...

Macronutrient intake will inevitably effect muscle loss overall... Stop over thinking this stuff....


And at 25% BF there is no need at all for the op to do any fasted cardio right now..... TBH he doesn't even need to do cardio, period.... Not for now anyway...

Just create a high calorie deficit via diet...

[baseline_9]

Oh no.... Not another fasted cardio debate....

Look at the bigger picture guys....

Would fasted cardio be catabolic if you were consuming 10000 calories in the day?

Think about it, what's the variable here.... Overall diet...

Macronutrient intake will inevitably effect muscle loss overall... Stop over thinking this stuff....


And at 25% BF there is no need at all for the op to do any fasted cardio right now..... TBH he doesn't even need to do cardio, period.... Not for now anyway...

Just create a high calorie deficit via diet...

But if you don't want to restrict calories to much then just do cardio as well.... Any cardio.... The harder the better... Focus on burning maximum calories..... None of this 'fat burning zone' bullshit

[--->>405<<---]

fasted cardio has been tested, and you do lose muscle mass depending on a half dozen things. An old article online called the Fasted Cardio Roundtable
Featuring Christian Thibaudeau, Lonnie Lowery, PhD, David Barr, and Dr. John Berardi is a very simple approach and talk about this from a few brilliant minds. There is no wrong or right answer on the topic, but it opens your eyes to the bigger picture if you choose to look into it a bit more in depth.

OP here is my personal experience:
check out my thread if u like starting on page 77 post#3044 stats: october 3, 2012 201lbs 13%bf (174.87lbs LBM)
http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...7#.UUG-H1d17U8

next look at page 83 post#3298 stats: december 11, 2012 193.2lbs 9.9% bf (174.07lbs LBM)
http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...3#.UUG_q1d17U8

this is a difference in 0.80lbs LBM which easily could be compensated for with a big glass of water. i did fasted cardio in the interim at twice per day both times in a fasted state, and furthermore cut from a much lower bf% than u are at now (about half) to sub 10% losing less than 1 pound LBM (which like i said could easily have been compensated for)..

bottom line: the study (MOCKERY) is worthless in comparison to my personal actual real life experience..

OP: do ur fasted cardio man!

[mockery]

bottom line: the study (MOCKERY) is worthless in comparison to my personal actual real life experience..

IM pro fasted cardio, dont get me wrong. Just pointing out that muscle mass can be lost depending on the type of athlete and training regiment u are doing, yes fasted cardio is great, but for others it eats a shit load of muscle. FOr me i cant do more then a uphill walking tread at a brisk walk before i get myself in trouble. Keep in mind if you are referring to your cut since you started TRT, you are anabolic , even on teh small scale of things making it harder to lose muscle mass from things like fasted cardio.

[cj111]

You can't compare what people do on aas to people doing the same all natural. They are two total different ball games

[Provita]

Fasted cardio good at < 80% RPE (aerobic exercise) promote lypolisys.

> 80% RPE (anaerobic exercise) once glycogen stores are depleted you will burn muscle. So no spinning or crazy sprints in the morning :-)

[Provita]

OP to answer your Q:

Calorie deficit diet and try to cut out refined carbs such as: sugar, potato, pasta, bread, etc. or if you have to have some, have it earlier in the day.

Good luck. Hope you see 15% BF real soon :-)

[baseline_9]

Fasted cardio good at < 80% RPE (aerobic exercise) promote lypolisys.

> 80% RPE (anaerobic exercise) once glycogen stores are depleted you will burn muscle. So no spinning or crazy sprints in the morning :-)

Do you realise how long it will actually take to burn all of the glycogen stores?

In reality it's not going to happen

[baseline_9]

OP to answer your Q:

Calorie deficit diet and try to cut out refined carbs such as: sugar, potato, pasta, bread, etc. or if you have to have some, have it earlier in the day.

Good luck. Hope you see 15% BF real soon :-)

My bro-science alarm just went off....

[riotz0r]

You can't compare what people do on aas to people doing the same all natural. They are two total different ball games

This is so true.... Both of my buddies are natural... The studies I read are about people who are natural because I'm natural.. Let me rephrase what I said, I believe people who are natural and are not on a diet with an extremely high amount of calories will burn muscle during fasted cardio... My opionion, could be right or wrong but I have actually seen it happen so to say it can't happen I know is not correct.

[Provita]

Do you realise how long it will actually take to burn all of the glycogen stores?

In reality it's not going to happen

Totally disagree. This does not take very long. A couple of high intensity sets of 30sec and your stores are empty. If there no food in the body, to create the ATP, your body will run to muscles.

In 45min in a spin class, i can burn 1000-1100 kCals. And don't tell me my glycogen stores can store that much energy.

[alex.mitev]

I fully agree with Base - look at the bigger picture. Fasted or not cardio creates deficit. As for the muscle loss , it depends on genetics, what compunds your on, how long youve been deiting and many other things. I also agree that in the begining if the get ripped journey, u dont need to go heavy on cardio or diet, but rather make small tweaks as u advance and leave more room for adjustments. All in from the scratch is left for the genetic elite, or guys intending to diet for no longer than 6 weeks - low % bf

[--->>405<<---]

This thread has become an absurdity..

OP.. Do fasted cardio and PLEASE.. Do not listen to anything provita has to say..

[baseline_9]

Totally disagree. This does not take very long. A couple of high intensity sets of 30sec and your stores are empty. If there no food in the body, to create the ATP, your body will run to muscles.

In 45min in a spin class, i can burn 1000-1100 kCals. And don't tell me my glycogen stores can store that much energy.

This is complete nonsense...

You think you can deplete the body's stores of glycogen with a few 30 second internals...

I'm actually Lost for words....

I havnt go the time to put you right so if someone else could I'd appreciate that....

405.... Get an extract from UD2.... There has to be something in there about depleting glycogen stores since that's pretty much what the diet is based around...

[Juced_porkchop]

hello guys,
it's bean a long time, the forum design changed
guys what is the best diet for ripping within 3 months for a person with this stats.

Height: 176 CM
Weight: 90KG
Fat: 25%
Mesomorph

look up "carb cycling"
its awesome.

1-2 cheat days of high carb/cal 2-3 med carb 2-3 low carb and repeat (all with about 500cal less then maintenance, cept on cheat days)

good luck

keep protein high and fats med (NOT low!)

[Juced_porkchop]

and dont stress toomuch on cardio or workout out for fatloss , that is minimal and over thinked by most.
I can get abs from JUST diet change.
1 cookie is a whol ****ing workout. trust me DIET is where it is at, then supps, then workouts.

I DO rec some cardio for health! not so much fatloss and early in the day to get the body moving and burning slightly more over the day.
id say atleast 3 cardios days and i rec still lifting heavy 2-3 time a week , even on a cut. of course you wont bulk up the same way but if diet is good there can be a nice re-comp effect with some fatloss.
good luck

[Juced_porkchop]

My bro-science alarm just went off....

I agree with cutting out sugar anywhere possible. but i would not just cut out carbs orvarall, they are important. diet diet diet! a BIG ass bowl of paste once a week will HELP not hurt fatloss. now havign it every day + more cals and carbs ofcourse now you are not losing.

its not as simple as just avoiding carbs overall, i agree with you (if thats what you meant be bro-science alarm just went off)

[--->>405<<---]

This is complete nonsense...

You think you can deplete the body's stores of glycogen with a few 30 second internals...

I'm actually Lost for words....

I havnt go the time to put you right so if someone else could I'd appreciate that....

405.... Get an extract from UD2.... There has to be something in there about depleting glycogen stores since that's pretty much what the diet is based around...

According to lyle macdonald the body has a capacity of approx 500g carbs worth of glycogen (if memory serves). Thatd be 2000cals..

Also it takes approx 10-12 sets per muscle group to deplete glycogen and this is at 60% 1 rep max at 45-60 secs under tension. He also instructs u to do additional cardio "in case theres still some glycogen left over"..

I have done this depletion workout over a pd of months. I know it well. It is brutal and painful and the hardest workout ive had to do. NO WAY this can be duplicated ina 45 min spin class.. Or even 45mins of a tour de france race at tour de france speed..

It takes me about 1.5-2 hrs to complete per day amd its a 2 day process (3-4hrs)...

Mockery: my test was 900(total) 25(free) during the time of this cut i referred to above.. Within normal ranges..

[Provita]

This thread has become an absurdity..

OP.. Do fasted cardio and PLEASE.. Do not listen to anything provita has to say..

Hey man, I'm all for fasted cardio. Agree totally. Just not cardio with RPE >80%.

Been there, done that, got the T shirt and learnt the hard way.

[951thompson]

According to lyle macdonald the body has a capacity of approx 500g carbs worth of glycogen (if memory serves). Thatd be 2000cals..

Also it takes approx 10-12 sets per muscle group to deplete glycogen and this is at 60% 1 rep max at 45-60 secs under tension. He also instructs u to do additional cardio "in case theres still some glycogen left over"..

I have done this depletion workout over a pd of months. I know it well. It is brutal and painful and the hardest workout ive had to do. NO WAY this can be duplicated ina 45 min spin class.. Or even 45mins of a tour de france race at tour de france speed..

It takes me about 1.5-2 hrs to complete per day amd its a 2 day process (3-4hrs)...

Mockery: my test was 900(total) 25(free) during the time of this cut i referred to above.. Within normal ranges..

I will testify to that, im following this routine right now, it takes many days on a low carb diet with lots of high rep resistance training and cardio to fully deplete glycogen and 405 aint joking when he says it is brutally painful.

[Provita]

According to lyle macdonald the body has a capacity of approx 500g carbs worth of glycogen (if memory serves). Thatd be 2000cals..

Also it takes approx 10-12 sets per muscle group to deplete glycogen and this is at 60% 1 rep max at 45-60 secs under tension. He also instructs u to do additional cardio "in case theres still some glycogen left over"..

I have done this depletion workout over a pd of months. I know it well. It is brutal and painful and the hardest workout ive had to do. NO WAY this can be duplicated ina 45 min spin class.. Or even 45mins of a tour de france race at tour de france speed..

It takes me about 1.5-2 hrs to complete per day amd its a 2 day process (3-4hrs)...

Mockery: my test was 900(total) 25(free) during the time of this cut i referred to above.. Within normal ranges..

Yup agree to the 2000kCals. Approx 500kcals are stored in the liver. 100kcals in the blood as glucose and the rest in the muscle. However, it is important to note that the glycogen stored in muscle is used directly by that muscle during exercise, it cannot borrow glycogen from other resting muscles.

Your glycogen stores aren't always full to capacity.

I'm a cyclist and have seen it many times how muscles is burnt away. Happened to me as well...

Rather safe than sorry... If you stick to cardio, that is <80% RPE (80% is by no means easy) you will burn more fat and do not have to worry about glycogen depletion.

[--->>405<<---]

Hey man, I'm all for fasted cardio. Agree totally. Just not cardio with RPE >80%.

Been there, done that, got the T shirt and learnt the hard way.

who is gonna maintain a sustained RPE >80% for any length of time?? not many people and the ones capable of it i doubt are worried about losing fat.. the statement u made earlier:

"Totally disagree. This does not take very long. A couple of high intensity sets of 30sec and your stores are empty. If there no food in the body, to create the ATP, your body will run to muscles.

In 45min in a spin class, i can burn 1000-1100 kCals. And don't tell me my glycogen stores can store that much energy."

this is one of the most ridiculous displays of misinformation/ignorance i have seen on here in awhile.. not trying to be a dick, but u need to learn what ur talking about bettetr than this man.. u obviously have no idea what is required to fully deplete muscle glycogen.

furthermore, assuming u were indeed correct the next source for fuel the body would utilize would be BODY FAT which is why glycogen depletion for fat loss exists.. do some more reading dude.. i suggest:

Lyle MacDonald Stubborn Fat Solution - this will really give u a good idea about how fat is burned and manipulated..

[Provita]

who is gonna maintain a sustained RPE >80% for any length of time?? not many people and the ones capable of it i doubt are worried about losing fat.. the statement u made earlier:

this is one of the most ridiculous displays of misinformation/ignorance i have seen on here in awhile.. not trying to be a dick, but u need to learn what ur talking about bettetr than this man.. u obviously have no idea what is required to fully deplete muscle glycogen.

furthermore, assuming u were indeed correct the next source for fuel the body would utilize would be BODY FAT which is why glycogen depletion for fat loss exists.. do some more reading dude.. i suggest:

Lyle MacDonald Stubborn Fat Solution - this will really give u a good idea about how fat is burned and manipulated..

I do not agree with that. Your body will only burn fat if you are at a lower RPE. Energy release from fat is slow.

Look man, the OP asked what was the best for weight loss. The consensus is fasted cardio. I've just suggested that he does cardio <80%RPE. That would promote fat loss "lypolisys" more, and then there is no concern about burning away muscle.

If muscle never gets burnt, why does one even eat if your BF% is higher than 0%. That theory does not make sense to me? Muscles being burnt away is a real reality for me and for every cyclist and tri-Athlon athlete i know. Maybe i'm missing something... Can you please explain to me?

And I'm not sarcastic in my response, i would really like to know...

[--->>405<<---]

not a problem.. first off ir ur a triathlete what is ur bf%?? probably pretty lean as in sub 15% more like 12% or less i would guess..?? did u not read what i said above about sustaining RPE >80%??? most people doing cardio IMO are not in this zone for any extended duration.. i know we can certainly agree a guy with 25%bf is simply not in good enuff cardiovascular shape to maintain a pace this high..

ur body used these resources for fuel in this order typically:
dietary carbs/blood glucose
muscle glycogen
body fat
muscle

for someone doing glycogen depletion workouts the goal is to get to where the body is using body fat for fuel.. for this to be accomplished u first have to discontinue the consumption of dietary carbs. this will eventually eliminate blood glucose as a source for fuel, next u do glycogen depletion style workouts to deplete muscle glycogen. this is best accomplished over a 2 day period with weights high volume and moderate weight staying under tension for a specific period of time.. once this is done and u are fully depleted and not consuming any dietary carbs, the body is then forced to use body fat for fuel.. somewhere in this neighborhood is also where u start to go into ketosis..

now everyone is different in how their body does things but this is a generalization and can be applied to most people. someone who is leaner will run the risk of the body using skeletal muscle for fuel when they get into this ketogenic/depleted zone MUCH MORESO than someone with a lot of body fat because the body is smart and will perceive this state as a threat a lot quicker on a lean person (12%bf or less) than a fatter person (@20% or greater).. this would be a gray area once u get to leaner people how easily the fat can continue to be "coaxed" off the body vs the body resorting to muscle..

as a cyclist while racing this is why u continue to consume fast absorbing carbs to keep the blood glucose levels elevated. for people like u not only do u have to be concerned with losing muscle, but in the short term more importantly u are concerned with performance.

as far as sustained RPE>80% u may be correct i cant comment on this as i have not studied it, but i would speculate it could be possible to supercede the factors of this discussion for 2 reasons: 1) it is a very high intensity 2)someone capable of maintaining this level of intensity for an extended duration would be very lean already..

[alex.mitev]

Well guys, having read everything in this thread so far, are you trying to assert that without depleted glycogen stores, you`re body cannot burn off body fat, even though you`re in caloric deficit?
if ur body resorts to energy sources in the abovementioned order, it should mean that without depleted glycogen stores, burning bodyfat is unattainable?

[--->>405<<---]

^^^^ No that is incorrect.. That is not what we are trying to say at all... Not even close.

Boy wouldnt that suck!! To have to be fully depleted to burn fat..

[alex.mitev]

All right, because it would have been really incorrect Then we can conclude that our bodies use mixed fuel sources and how depleted one should be in order to shed bf down greatly depends on individual`s genetics, insulin sensitivity, metabolic rate and many others, right?

[--->>405<<---]

All right, because it would have been really incorrect Then we can conclude that our bodies use mixed fuel sources and how depleted one should be in order to shed bf down greatly depends on individual`s genetics, insulin sensitivity, metabolic rate and many others, right?

alex actually i dont think there is an exact set order that everyone burns the 4 fuel sources mentioned above all the time.. it will vary with each individual, however the order in which i listed them is my understanding of the typical basic order at which the body utilizes its available resources for fuel.

in all actuality there are probably other resources not mentioned (such as but not limited to ketones) but i was trying to keep this simple.

i would also like to note here that the body is not necessarily limited to each source exclusively at any given time unless one of the possible resources (such as dietary carbs/blood glucose) was not available, nor was i trying to imply by my list above that this was the case. if it were then it would be impossible to burn muscle if u had any body fat at all. we all know this is not true. i was trying to give a broad understanding. my purpose in the above mentioned post was to show that for someone who is 25% body fat, the likelihood of the body turning to muscle for fuel is pretty low..

[alex.mitev]

Thanks for your feply 405. Very well explained