Roman's Protein Corner - Questions, Concerns, Comments............

[Times Roman]

Let's harpoon the bro science and the myths here and now.

Up for discussion.

At a minimum, anyone traveling to this board wanting to be a body builder needs at least 1.5 grams of protein per pound of Lean Body Mass (aka "LBM"). The only exception I know is those with some kind of kidney problem.

Protein can cause some hydration issues when eaten in excess. And this is what drives the claims by our good buddies at the FDA that "excess protein can cause stress to the kidneys".

To the point.

If the amount of protein we eat, upwards of 400 grams of protein per day causes kidney stress, then why has no one here raised the alarm and started a thread about this subject?

Those that are sickly with kidney problems should be careful, true enough.

But does that describe the profile of the typical body builder here on this board?
(seems highly doubtful)

So mates, remember to stay hydrated, and avoid kidney issues.

And remember to eat your protein!

...up for discussion

[MBOS]

Roman, would love to get your macros calculator, trying to get a grasp. Sent you an email.

[tarmyg]

I am currently looking very closely at this 1.5g requirement as it seems my test levels go up when I increase fat consumption. This was not my idea obviously but it does seem to hold true, for me anyhow. Now, if fat increases my test level why on earth would I need to eat that much protein? What science is behind this number or is it purely based on anecdotal evidence? I am not saying anecdotal evidence have no merit but if it could be backed by something else it would be great. Is the 1.5g only for people on roids as I see many natural guys who live on 1g and are having amazing results? As everything else it will take people with insane attention to detail to document this over years increasing and lowering protein to see differences.

[RaginCajun]

Good discussion once again.

I think 405 has been playing around with his protein intake over the years and over time, went from eating 300g to 200g. I think he weighs 200lbs. Just an example and hope he chimes in.

I also think about vegetarians when it comes to protein consumption. I understand they get protein from hemp, soy, tofu, etc..., but I wonder how much they actually get? I still don't know if it is true or not, but didn't Hershel Walker pretty much eat/live a vegetarian lifestyle? Now I do know he has phenomenal genetics, and wondering how that factors into all of this as well.

[tarmyg]

I want to thank you Times Roman for getting me to spend my entire day chasing around for material around this topic ;-)

In our community people will say 1.5g/lb as a minimum but people consume way more than that and many closer to 2g/lb. But how much protein do we actually need to gain muscle effectively? Many studies around what optimal protein intake is have been concluded and they show that 0.73g/lb was sufficient to maintain positive nitrogen balance (Walberg et al., 1988), and 0.55g/lb was sufficient for bodybuilders (Tarnopolsky et al. 1988). 0.75g/lb was recommended by a study done in 1992 (Lemon et al.) and a study by Tarnopolsky et al. the same year showed no significant difference between eating 0.64g/lb and 1.10g/lb. In 2006 Hoffman et al. showed no difference between 0.77g/lb and >0.91g/lb.

With these numbers in mind optimal protein intake should land somewhere around 1.8g/kg or 0.82g/lb as this would be the upper limit at which protein intake benefits body composition (Phillips & Van Loon, 2011). The Lemon et al. study mentioned above studied Bodybuilders training 1.5h/day, 6 days/week and found the 0.75g/lb optimal.

They have also found that the more advanced you are the less protein you need. They studied elite bodybuilders and found that they need less protein than novice bodybuilders (Rennie & Tipton, 2000; Hartman, Moore & Phillips, 2006; Moore et al., 2007)

They also did some studies around cutting (for competitions) and still found 0.73g/lb being sufficient to maintain LBM (Walberg et al. 1988). Pikosky et al. (2008) demonstrated that cutting at a daily 1000 calorie deficit when eating 0.82g protein per lb of body weight has been shown not to affect nitrogen balance or whole body protein turnover.

There seems to be no advantage in consuming more than 0.82g/lb of protein per day to preserve or build muscle.

[JAMIE07652]

The question I have is , how much protein can the body absorb in one sitting ?

[Docd187123]

Let's harpoon the bro science and the myths here and now.

Up for discussion.

At a minimum, anyone traveling to this board wanting to be a body builder needs at least 1.5 grams of protein per pound of Lean Body Mass (aka "LBM"). The only exception I know is those with some kind of kidney problem.

Protein can cause some hydration issues when eaten in excess. And this is what drives the claims by our good buddies at the FDA that "excess protein can cause stress to the kidneys".

To the point.

If the amount of protein we eat, upwards of 400 grams of protein per day causes kidney stress, then why has no one here raised the alarm and started a thread about this subject?

Those that are sickly with kidney problems should be careful, true enough.

But does that describe the profile of the typical body builder here on this board?
(seems highly doubtful)

So mates, remember to stay hydrated, and avoid kidney issues.

And remember to eat your protein!

...up for discussion

1.5g of pro per lb lbm is well in excess of actual needs to build muscle. You can easily build muscle on 1g/lb lbm and it's been shown time and time again. Not saying more protein is without benefit but it's just simply not required. The more intense your training or the leaner you are, yes protein requirements can go up, but at no point is it required to get 1.5g/lb lbm.

[Docd187123]

The question I have is , how much protein can the body absorb in one sitting ?

Damn near all you give it in a sitting. There's no magical number where the body says 'after this amount I won't absorb anymore'. We would have long since died off if this was the case. The addition of dietary fat, fiber, the type of protein, and/or the amount of food you eat all determine how long the meal will take to digest. A mixed meal can take anywhere from a couple hours up to 5-6hrs + to digest. The ileal tract in the small intestine is your body's natural braking system to speed up or slow down digestion. This allows the body to absorb almost all the nutrients you give it.

[JAMIE07652]

Makes sense doc , thx

[Docd187123]

Makes sense doc , thx

No problem brother.

[jwh7699]

On Non-Workout days is it ok to lower Protein consumption?

Thanks!!

[Docd187123]

On Non-Workout days is it ok to lower Protein consumption?

Thanks!!

Depends on how high your protein intake is to begin with among other factors.

[jwh7699]

I tend to consume in the 220g to 270g range on work-out days.

Curious if on non-workout days if it would not be necessary to consume as much, say around 180g to 200g , and then bump it up on workout days?

Don't won't the excess turning to fat if I'm not utilizing it.

[BG]

Your body only assimilates what it needs, the rest goes out in your urine.

[Times Roman]

I'm glad I created this thread. A lot of good information here. I'll be chasing down all the links and cites over the next few days/weeks. We had a diet guru here that preached the 1.5 grams of protein per 1lb of LBM, and backed up pretty much everything he said with verifiable studies, etc. But I haven't seen him much this year, unfortunately. He would have been a great voice to have in this conversation.

This is what I love about this place. Always challenging the accepted norms.

[Docd187123]

I'm glad I created this thread. A lot of good information here. I'll be chasing down all the links and cites over the next few days/weeks. We had a diet guru here that preached the 1.5 grams of protein per 1lb of LBM, and backed up pretty much everything he said with verifiable studies, etc. But I haven't seen him much this year, unfortunately. He would have been a great voice to have in this conversation.

This is what I love about this place. Always challenging the accepted norms.

Are you talking about GBPrice or soemthing like that? If so that guy was a great asset to the diet forum for sure.

[Docd187123]

I tend to consume in the 220g to 270g range on work-out days.

Curious if on non-workout days if it would not be necessary to consume as much, say around 180g to 200g , and then bump it up on workout days?

Don't won't the excess turning to fat if I'm not utilizing it.

Protein will not be stored as fat in the real world. What happens is it may get converted to glucose to be used as energy which then drops the demands for stored body fat to be oxidized for energy. Thus less body fat burned means you accumulate more fat in the chronic setting if bulking. Protein though will not get converted to fat directly in any realistic setting.

[Times Roman]

Are you talking about GBPrice or soemthing like that? If so that guy was a great asset to the diet forum for sure.

that's him, although I thought it was GBrice, or something like that. PM'd him a few months ago for some nutritional insight, and I never received a reply.

[tarmyg]

that's him, although I thought it was GBrice, or something like that. PM'd him a few months ago for some nutritional insight, and I never received a reply.

The Guru: http://forums.steroid.com/members/gbrice75-110084.html

[Times Roman]

The Guru: http://forums.steroid.com/members/gbrice75-110084.html

Yeah, not sure what is going on. He posted once in Mar, once in Feb, and a few times in January.

There's been somewhat of a nutritional void with him gone.

He had nutritional insight that few have. I would have loved to pose the carb question to him. I still haven't figured out quite what happened, when I added 300 cals above my observed TDEE, switched from oat based complex carbs to simple fruit based carbs, and began to lose a couple of pounds a month. I'm missing a piece of the puzzle, and have been a little reluctant to do the deep dive into the issue to figure this thing out.

[Khazima]

Yeah, not sure what is going on. He posted once in Mar, once in Feb, and a few times in January.

There's been somewhat of a nutritional void with him gone.

He had nutritional insight that few have. I would have loved to pose the carb question to him. I still haven't figured out quite what happened, when I added 300 cals above my observed TDEE, switched from oat based complex carbs to simple fruit based carbs, and began to lose a couple of pounds a month. I'm missing a piece of the puzzle, and have been a little reluctant to do the deep dive into the issue to figure this thing out.

Your body could have been utilising those types of carbs a lot better than it was the other? (Just a shot in the dark )

[tarmyg]

Your body could have been utilising those types of carbs a lot better than it was the other? (Just a shot in the dark )

I think the question is why?

[pushit_05]

I've always stuck to 1g per lbs of body weight and haven't had issues. I also prefer to keep my fat a little higher than my carbs.

[Times Roman]

I may make some adjustments to my macro ratios, but need time to think/study on it more........

[Docd187123]

Yeah, not sure what is going on. He posted once in Mar, once in Feb, and a few times in January.

There's been somewhat of a nutritional void with him gone.

He had nutritional insight that few have. I would have loved to pose the carb question to him. I still haven't figured out quite what happened, when I added 300 cals above my observed TDEE, switched from oat based complex carbs to simple fruit based carbs, and began to lose a couple of pounds a month. I'm missing a piece of the puzzle, and have been a little reluctant to do the deep dive into the issue to figure this thing out.

He really is a smart guy for sure.his presence is missed.

I have a few ideas of what maybe going on. I'll try and Pm you later but have a busy day today. Bottom line is you're making progress and that's what counts lol.

[jimmyinkedup]

I read Francos nutrition book and he tool in lik a max of 1g/lb of bodyweight and less when not bulking. He would manipulate carbs. Carbs are protein sparing in a sense and especially for some. I think you have to play with what works for you but the 2g/lb thing I hear is way overkill and too much

btw I havent spoken with GBrice recently but not all that long ago he was well and we still accasionally keep tabs outside of here via social media ...

[RaginCajun]

Yeah, not sure what is going on. He posted once in Mar, once in Feb, and a few times in January. There's been somewhat of a nutritional void with him gone. He had nutritional insight that few have. I would have loved to pose the carb question to him. I still haven't figured out quite what happened, when I added 300 cals above my observed TDEE, switched from oat based complex carbs to simple fruit based carbs, and began to lose a couple of pounds a month. I'm missing a piece of the puzzle, and have been a little reluctant to do the deep dive into the issue to figure this thing out.

Wish ole GB was still around. Maybe if he gets fat, he will come back.

He def helped me a lot when I first joined.

[pushit_05]

Idk if anyone has seen this or finds it interesting:

J Appl Physiol (1985). 1989 Jan;66(1):498-503.
Effect of testosterone on muscle mass and muscle protein synthesis.
Griggs RC1, Kingston W, Jozefowicz RF, Herr BE, Forbes G, Halliday D.
Author information
Abstract

We have studied the effect of a pharmacological dose of testosterone enanthate (3 mg.kg-1.wk-1 for 12 wk) on muscle mass and total-body potassium and on whole-body and muscle protein synthesis in normal male subjects. Muscle mass estimated by creatinine excretion increased in all nine subjects (20% mean increase, P less than 0.02); total body potassium mass estimated by 40K counting increased in all subjects (12% mean increase, P less than 0.0001). In four subjects, a primed continuous infusion protocol with L-[1-13C]leucine was used to determine whole-body leucine flux and oxidation. Whole-body protein synthesis was estimated from nonoxidative flux. Muscle protein synthesis rate was determined by measuring [13C]leucine incorporation into muscle samples obtained by needle biopsy. Testosterone increased muscle protein synthesis in all subjects (27% mean increase, P less than 0.05). Leucine oxidation decreased slightly (17% mean decrease, P less than 0.01), but whole-body protein synthesis did not change significantly. Muscle morphometry showed no significant increase in muscle fiber diameter. These studies suggest that testosterone increases muscle mass by increasing muscle protein synthesis.

source: Effect of testosterone on muscle mass ... [J Appl Physiol (1985). 1989] - PubMed - NCBI

What I get from this is while muscle protein synthesis did increase the total amount of assimilation did not. So I guess we all have a saturation point per day which seems to make sense.

[Docd187123]

Idk if anyone has seen this or finds it interesting:



source: Effect of testosterone on muscle mass ... [J Appl Physiol (1985). 1989] - PubMed - NCBI

What I get from this is while muscle protein synthesis did increase the total amount of assimilation did not. So I guess we all have a saturation point per day which seems to make sense.

They studied the effects of 3mg/kg per week. For a 100kg person that's 300mg per week of test. Not much more than a TRT or cruise dose.

[clarky.]

Yes GB knows his stuff but so does BIB suprised he's not been in on this guy's.

[pushit_05]

They studied the effects of 3mg/kg per week. For a 100kg person that's 300mg per week of test. Not much more than a TRT or cruise dose.

So your saying if they would have tripled the dose effects of increased assimilation would appear? I mean the subjects were receiving 216mg of test a week with the ester removed. Which is already 5-7 times what a healthy male produces.

[Docd187123]

So your saying if they would have tripled the dose effects of increased assimilation would appear? I mean the subjects were receiving 216mg of test a week with the ester removed. Which is already 5-7 times what a healthy male produces.

Where did you get that the ester was removed? I see them stating they used test enanthate .

It's possible assimilation would have increased but obviously I can't say for sure. I'm not posting the following as proof assimilation would have increased but to show different dosages of test may elicit different results:

Important mechanisms behind the strong myotrophic effects of testosterone were first uncovered in a population of high-level powerlifters who reported the use of testosterone (100–500 mg week−1) for a period of 9±3.3 years (Kadi et al., 1999; Kadi, 2000). Long-term administration of testosterone accentuates the degree of fibre hypertrophy in already well-trained powerlifters (Kadi et al., 1999; Kadi, 2000). Testosterone induces the hypertrophy of both type I and type II muscle fibres. Type II muscle fibres are the largest muscle fibres in powerlifters both in steroid users and non-users. However, there is evidence suggesting that the largest difference in muscle fibre size between steroid users and non-users is observed in slow type I muscle fibres (Kadi et al., 1999; Kadi, 2000; Eriksson et al., 2005). In the trapezius muscle of steroid users, the area of type I muscle fibres is 58% larger than in non-users, whereas the area of type II muscle fibres is 33% larger than in non-users (Kadi et al., 1999). The same tendency is observed in the vastus lateralis (Eriksson et al., 2005). Accordingly, it has been shown that type I muscle fibres are more sensitive to anabolic agents than type II muscle fibres (Hartgens et al., 1996). Subsequently, it has been shown that the administration of 300 and 600 mg testosterone induced an increase in the area of type I muscle fibres, whereas type II muscle fibres enlarge only after administration of 600 mg testosterone (Sinha-Hikim et al., 2002).

Cellular and molecular mechanisms responsible for the action of testosterone on human skeletal muscle. A basis for illegal performance enhancement

[pushit_05]

Where did you get that the ester was removed? I see them stating they used test enanthate.

I removed the ester to display the correct amount of test the subjects were receiving based on your 300mg example. 28% of ethanate isn't test so I just removed it to easier see how much test was floating in their blood per week.

Subsequently, it has been shown that the administration of 300 and 600 mg testosterone induced an increase in the area of type I muscle fibres, whereas type II muscle fibres enlarge only after administration of 600 mg testosterone (Sinha-Hikim et al., 2002).

I find this interesting considering this well known post: 300 mg of test e vs 600 mg per week human study

The main thing I find interesting is the strength results from the link I posted:

Leg Press Strength
300 mg group-72.2kg (158.8lbs) increase
600 mg group-76.5kg (168.3lbs) increase

This is after 20 weeks at either 300mg TestE vs 600mg TestE. Type 1 aren't movers of big weight yet there is only a 10lbs difference between the two groups. Your study indicates 600mg a week is the minimum for strength where as mine shows not much of a difference.

[kyawookie]

Well its not "how much can the body absorb in one sitting" as far as protein goes because you will absorb as much as you can eat. It's how much protein is generating an anabolic response in one sitting or in one meal. A man with a PhD is protein synthesis and nutritional sciences that goes to my gym told me in his studies that they show 30-40 grams in the natural bodybuilder is about the limit. He also said there is no reason to eat over 1g pre pound. He told me .8 is more than enough. But I can't ask him what if your on anabolic steroids ? So if your on anabolics like I am I know you can now utilize more protein. But does anyone have research that shows how much you should eat on AAS? Because at the moment I eat around 275 grams a day and I am just shy of 190 pounds. Witch is just under 1.5 times my body weight.

[kyawookie]

I ask about the protein intake with AAS because you can watch any video out there of an IFBB pro eating and he is eating massive amounts of chicken/steak/fish insert protein of choice. When I watched the video Mr Coleman put out where he is Deadlifting 800 pounds 6 weeks out from Mr olympia... he is eating massive amounts of protein. Huge containers of chicken it must be pounds at a time. He wakes up and takes like 3 or 4 scoops of protein mixed with grits. Is it because he is on HGH and because of that he has more muscle fibers then he was born with? And now has to fuel all of this new muscle mass due to the HGH? Or is it because he is on aas? It has been proven that you can utilize more protein while using AAS. I see "steroid guru's" saying 2g to 2.5g!! per pound of body weight. Does the stress on kidneys minimize because you don't have excess protein? Because now your using more than you naturally could? I also see guys time and time again say while on anabolic /angrogenic steroids they had low protein intake about 1g per lbs of body weight and as soon as they upped it to 2g per pound of body weight they noticed almost immediate gains in muscle mass. Thisraises the question of does it benefit you to go as high as 2g on AAS can the extra protein be utilized AND will this cause the minor problems high protein diets have on the body to minimize or not have any problems whatsoever because your now generating an anabolic response and are utilizing all of the extra protein?

[--->>405<<---]

good topic. i agree with doc that 1.5g protein per pound LBM is on the high side.

alan aragon has a good video on the subject, i think i posted it in a thread awhile back.



^^^ from my research, this dude is pretty much the smartest, and most up-to-date guy ive seen where diet is concerned.

[RangerDanger830]

The whole 1g of protein per pound you want to weigh was something my old powerlifting coach used to preach to us.

[Deal Me In]

Well hell, now I have to rethink everything. I've been using 1.5 as goal and getting close to 300g/day. If I can lower that to 200g/day I wouldn't mind.

I do have a question about kidney issues. I get kidney stones. Could a high protein diet cause an increase in stones?

I can't wait to see where this thread goes. If the 1.5g/lb number can be backed up I would like to see it. Otherwise, I have to change my portions.

[Docd187123]

Well hell, now I have to rethink everything. I've been using 1.5 as goal and getting close to 300g/day. If I can lower that to 200g/day I wouldn't mind.

I do have a question about kidney issues. I get kidney stones. Could a high protein diet cause an increase in stones?

I can't wait to see where this thread goes. If the 1.5g/lb number can be backed up I would like to see it. Otherwise, I have to change my portions.

There isn't a REQUIREMENT for 1.5g/lb of protein. Some people with better partitioning ratios could make some use of the extra protein but these differences would only be very minor. 1g/lb has been shown to be effective at building muscle in athletic or lifting populations enough times for it to be used as a reference. Hope that helps. My $.02

[Deal Me In]

Ok, I'm still trying to understand. If the body only needs 1g/lb and you consume 1.5g/lb what happens to the extra protein? Does it simply get used as energy? Does it get expelled?

I get that everybody is different I'm just trying to figure out what will happen if I cut my protein intake. If the body only needs 1g/lb does that mean cutting my protein intake to that number from 1.5g/lb will have no effect.

I guess a better way to ask the question is, does this mean that taking more protein doesn't mean more muscle built? In other words, you will see the same results from less protein?

I'm still trying to wrap my head around this because I've believed the whole "1.5-2g/lb" thing for years.