More education

[dumbells101]

Mike...another for you...explain (for those who don't know) the following.


1. Negative feedback


and for me explain:

2. 17alpha alkylated and the difference between them (like anadrol and winstrol why is one more toxic)

[Pete235]

Originally posted by dumbells101
explain (for those who don't know) the following.
1. Negative feedback

Negative feedback: DB101...that color makes you look fat.

Sorry...couldn't resist. I'll let Mike answer it correctly.

Pete

[dumbells101]

Pete bro I'd never live through that answer at my home!

[Nathan]

I know, but I'm not Mike.

[gorilla]

Im not trying to step on mikes toes but heres my shot at the negative feedback question?
Negative feedback is a way that your body (Hormonal, Nervous etc. etc. etc) regulates the amount or saturation of a compound within itself. Its (without all the scientific wording) a way you body shuts down certain processes when it no longer needs them. For example: Your body knows it needs a certain amount of testosterone in its blood at any given time. If that level falls short its going to trigger the hormone secreting cells (your leydig cells of your testis) to produce and secrete more into you blood circulation. Well how is your body going to know when to stop producing testosterone?? By triggering a shut of "switch" that says O.K. got enough test for now you can stop!! Basically that shut of "switch" is negative feedback, its not the most detailed explanation.....if you need more detail or certain specific examples fell free to ask, ill get you all you need!!

So MIKE how did I do....did that get your approval?? Ill post the winstrol /anadrol answer tommorow.

gorilla

[CYCLEON]

yep, Im glad Im not mike either

[Mike]

My lord....you having fun yet? LOL

Ok...how Negative Feedback works.....

(First off I should state that feedback is both positive AND negative and is slightly different in the female and male)

I should start by explaining that androgens and oestrogens are collectively known as gonadotrophins simply because the testes and ovaries are the main sites of production. In both males AND females the hypothalamus and the pituitary gland are closely linked in in their nervous and endocrine communication, specifically by peptide hormones called Gonadotrophin Releasing Hormones.

The pituitary gland produces LH (luteinising hormone) and FSH (follicle stimulating hormone) which stimulate the gonads in two ways:

In females:

FSH provokes growth of sex cells, the ovarian follicles.

(LH in a woman, in high concentration, induces ovulation in a Graafian follicle which has been primed with FSH.)

In Males:

FSH ALSO provokes growth of sex cells but in males these are the seminiferous tubules and it plays a part in early stages of sperm production.

Here's where it starts getting relevant to US:

LH and FSH stimulate the production of testosterone (primarily) by the testes in a man, oestrogens by the ovaries in a woman.

(as a side note they are also produced in small amounts by the adrenal cortex)

So with that back ground...here's negative feedback:

Negative feedback operates on the hypothalamus and pituitary, to reduce the output of the pituitary, in response to the overall levels of all gonadal steroids , which are controlled at different levels in men and women.

In adult males the concentration is about 240mg/100ml. That's roughly 8 times higher than that in females. But only 2% of this is free and biologically avtive. (The rest is bound to blood protein, some to albumin, which are relatively free, and the rest to SHBG which provides a store.)

It is important, then, when reading accounts of hormone concentration, to be sure which testosterone is being considered.

In women the concentration and primary principles are slightly different.

Essentially - negative feedback is a process that resides in the pituitary and hypothalamus glands. When the body has produced enough a hormone the process of negative feedback comes into play by reducing the output of the pituitary gland.

Gorilla:

VERY well stated - in fact you explained it much better than I. Good response. Just thought I would elaborate on the background so as to explain when and why this is relevant.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ok Hepatic damage associated with 17aa steroids and why are they toxic and what differentiates toxicity among seperate 17aas......

First I will note that it is the rocess of changing the steroid molecularly to make the compound become active for oral administration that makes these damaging to a degree to the liver. And yes it has clearly been proven that damage to the liver is MORE common with these oral steroids than with injectibles - in fact, to my knowledge injectibles have made no sturdy claims on hepatic damage.

Interesting enough though....

The majority of cases reporting liver problems have dealt with extremely sick and elderly patients treated with C-17 alkylated oral steroids for YEARS of continuous use, and many of these patients had a particular type of anemia linked to liver tumors even without Anabolic Steroid therapy.

Another study showed similar results....

In this study Anadrol was administered for 30 weeks on HIV positive men and women Oxymetholone was administered in a dosage of over 1,000 mg per week, or roughly 142mg/day (more than that used by many athletes, and for a much longer duration of uninterrupted use). The results were significant gains in lean muscle mass even without any weightlifting. Even more importantly and surprisingly there were no significant problems with liver function, water retention, or virilization side effects

(Hengge et al., British Journal of Nutrition, 75, p.129-138, 1996).

In the above study I feel it important to note that these patients were on almost 150mgs of A-50 EVERY day for 30 weeks...now THAT is one hell of a cycle. And certainly supports my theory that the hepatic damage associated with 17aa steroids (while real and valid) is grossly over stated.

So - before answering the question as to why they are damging and why one more than the other - I felt it important to clarify the misconception of toxicity findings in these drugs.

But to answer the other part of your question - as stated above - the steroids are in fact damaging hepatically BECAUSE they are made active for oral consumption by means of molecular restructuring - and the structuring is different from winstrol to anadrol to dianabol etc etc etc. I believe it is the varying amounts of carbon atoms added to the structure that will set one's toxicity level aside from the next.

[Big Al]

Can't fail to learn here

[The Iron Game]

it seems people only listen to god

[Big Al]

Hey bro no ones using 21g's anymore! I think that was you......

[Mike]

You kidding Iron Game? Not only are you WELCOME but I ENCOURAGE you to jump in here and help out - I know I am not the only one here that knows my shit - hell be my guest and answer these baby

[Mike]

What's up with this? This thread was viewed a hundred times but only has 11 posts?? It's funny whenever something turns factual rather than opinion based nobody wants to touch it with a ten foot pole! LOL

I would be happy to hear if the question was answered or if anyone has any input/comments to make.

I'll bump this one more time

[Nathan]

What the hell are you talking about? You hit the nail on the head dude. Except that I remember that you seemed to suggest that negative feedback was limited to involving the pituitary gland. That isn't really the case, but by far the most cases do involve the pituitary. That's nit-picking but you asked.

[dane26]

bump. another f***ing awesome post. i hope that the newbies are reading these posts and not just the vets. i'm still learning shit from you mofos!

[Mike]

Nathan - did you read this part?

"Negative feedback operates on the hypothalamus and pituitary"

[The Iron Game]

woooooohooooooooo


bump bump bump

grrrrrrrrrrrrreat post

[Nathan]

Originally posted by Mike
Nathan - did you read this part?

"Negative feedback operates on the hypothalamus and pituitary"

Yes, but I forgot. Soooooooooo sorry (sarcastic remark, for that I apologize). I read your post a few days back and then posted without re-reading. HOWEVER, you know what I mean. The whole process relies on far more than simply the hypothalamus and the pituitary. Like I said, just nit-picking. Great post.

[Mike]

Yes Nathan - negative feedback consists of so much more of the body than the pituitary and hypothalamus glands - in fact it's an intregal part of the whole body (nervous system, endocrine etc) but the monitoring of the hormones that IS the catalyst for negative and positive feedback, resides in those two glands - THEY are responsible for that monitoring

[Billy Boy]

Got to bump this for anyone who may have missed it.

Mike I,ve sent you a pm regarding this

[dumbells101]

See as the title suggests...More education. Thanks guys. I'll have another chart buster question later today!

[Mike]

Ok I am sticking this as a reminder to myself - when I get the time I am gonna take this and the deca gyno and make articles out of them to post up top - I think these may be useful to have around so nobody ever has to type all that shit again

[juiceon]

Very interesting and informative post. For what is usually such a complicated subject matter, it was very easy to follow.

Thanks Mike!

[Mike]

good! was hoping it wasnt just a bunch of technical mumbo jumbo and that people could actually understand it

Gorilla's answer was very good as well

[xman]

I bought the book called "Built to Survive". It is a book written mostly for aids patients and the use of steroids . They quote quit a few medical studies, and have done alot of research oin the use of steroids. The guys who wrote the book have a web sight: http://www.medibolics.com. In there book they state that at the end of the cycle you need to take, (I don't have the book in front of me right now so I am recalling) HCG for 3wks, clomid for 3wks after that, and 1mg arimidex for the whole 6wks. Now this may have been a total of 8wks, and I can not remember dosages of the HCG or clomid. If you go to www.mesomorhpis.com, Bill Roberts says you should not use HCG at the end. I have e-mailed both of the people to find out who actually has any studies pertaining to the use of HCG at the end of the cycle, I have not heard back from anyone yet. I am going on assumption, only because of all of the evidence in the Built for Survive book, that they have it right. My question is, has anyone here actually read any studies on this. I know everyone say on the boards that it should not be used post cycle, arfe they just repeating what Bill Robert or someone else has said, or just going on theory. Look at all of the MD's ought there who do not really know what they are talking about when it comes to steroids. Only since they have begun to study aids paitience on them arer we really getting some hard facts. I would really like to know the real facts.

[Mike]

Xman -

It is good there are people like you out there that look for the actual facts. I have been to the medibolics site many times - very good site. As for Bill Roberts opinions - nothing against him but don't believe any of it. He doesn't cite studies - I don't consider his credentials enough to warrant validity in his statements. Airmidex should be taken WHILE on cycle as once you are off there is a good chance you have missed the window of opportunity that airmidex operates in. Clomid I would agree with to an extent but you didnt state what "cycle" they are talking about and since half lives of steroids vary severely it is definitely a variable when deciding when to take clomid. Also - there is a discrepency here in my opinion - you stated that that is how they recommend you should come off cycle. Well you are missing an important question....to acheive what? Are they stating that is the best way to raise natural test levels after cycle...or???? Because I think that is a very important part especially with the HCG comment you made as I don't feel it necessary to include HCG in all cases.

[Mike]

oh yeah....and just to make clear - it REALLY matters what the cycle consisted of - not just for half life to determine when to administer clomid - but also because when you state it necessary to use airmidex....well that depends what you were taking. This post started out about deca for instance - if you were taking deca then it has been beaten to a pulp here why airmidex would be useless in this case.

[xman]

Mike,
Thanks for your reply. What they are trying to achive is to get the bodies natural test levels back on line. One of the cycle they where recommending was for the patience t gain weight. Not just a couple of pound, but weight that most of us non-pro body builders are trying to do. One study, folowing there 12 months cycle plans put on I think was 40-50, from 185 to 235. Again I don't have the book in front of me, I'll try and gett it back in the next day or so. The cycle was test. cyp and decca. I think they suggested the pyramind scheme (I know most BB say that is old school way). It was twelve wks, I think starting at100mg cyp, 200mg decca/wk, up to 200-400mg test and 400-600mg decca, then tapering back down. Then they started the HCG followed by clomid. They stated in the book that they found From studies that adding deca to the test would increase the amount of lean muscle mass opposed to just doing large amounts of test. I'm sure most people new that, but I not sure that thet have actually seen the medical proof that was offered in this book. Alot of what they state in this book applies to us. These aids patient need to gain lean muscle mass, and not loose it as soon as they come off. If a person already has a low test count before ever starting on steroids , then they recommend staying on 100mg/w a test continually. They stated one study of a man on 200mg wk test cyp for 2 years, and his levels returned to normal in 6 months. They also discuss anavar , winny, and androl.

[Mike]

Very interesting - I am very interested to see the studies that support their use of HCG and why. The pharmaceutical company I work for produces the leading protease inhibitor on the market (the foundation of HIV therapy) In fact, the company produces ONLY HIV drugs (well has only HIV drugs approved that is) so I am very much exposed to AIDS patients and literature/clinical studies relating to their therapy and the steroid regimens they are given to combat atrophy, or "wasting"

It really is interesting - and you are right - there is lots to learn there. In fact most of the studies I will make reference to are studies that have involved those circumstances.

Good posts.

[Gilster]

Wow! I am so sorry I have not been reading this board more. I think I have learned more on this post than in the last 3 months. Thanks for some great knowledge bros. What a great read.

[xman]

Mike,
Like I said, I am only assuming that they have done studies about there recommended post cycle regimen. I have e-mailed them to find out for sure if this is the case. I have not heard anything back, but was given a couple of names of some doctors who might have more insight on the whole endrocronology of this stuff. The names I was given where PhD Conrad Earnest, BZ Leder,Michael Scally (maybe Scalley) MD he is in Houstin. I have not gotten in contact with any of these guys yet, but I would also urge anyone who is at all conserned about hard evidence to also help me in trying to contact the people who can give us some real answer. Of course I will alway post what I can find out as fact, or at least verified by studies. We definately need to keep this post going, and try to keep factual. I don't have all of the answers, but I am going try to get as much medical info as possable.

[Mike]

Bro let me know what you want to know - this post is going all over the place but what is it you want firm clinical back up for and I will most likely be able to give you the answer and the credibility you are looking for.

[Nathan]

Fair enough Mike. Though oxytocin is controled more by stimulation of the teat or nipples. tee hee. There is then a relay via neurons to the hypothalamus that is triggered to secrete oxytocin. I like that example.

[xman]

Ok here are a few things I am trying to figure out:
1)Can there be just partial shut down of HTPA?
2) Have you seen any studies that indicate if HTPA recovery is
determined by the amount of steroid or by the type (androgen or anabolic )?
If you do 100mg/wk of cyp, will that totaly shut you down? What if it was 100mg of deca ?
3) Have you seen studies or have you yourself compared blood test. levels before a cycle and after cycle (one usind clomid end of cycle and one without clomid end of cycle)?
I had my test levels checked before my last cycle, 350. My cycle was 4wks tren @ 100mg/day, along with 100mg/day winny, I then tapered the winny down. In wk 5 50mg/day, then wk 6 25mg/day, wk 7 40mg/day anavar , wk 8 20mg/day. I then did clomid 50/100/50. I then had my test levels tested 2wks after the clomid, it was 50. So this was 5wks after my 8 wk cycle. I just got the results back of another test that was performed 16 days after I had the test that was 50, it is now 216.
So what can be learned from this? Tapering doesn't work? Once you shut down, you are shut down until all steroids have left the body, even anabolics at low doses? That clomid really doesn't have that much of an effect or maybe it should have been taken 300mg day 1, then 100mg 10 days, then 50mg 10 days?
4)Can you conferm that HCG will help at the end of a cycle, or that it will only postpone recovery?
5)If you already have a naturally low test level, say 350, will you ever be able to keep the increased mass after you finish a cycle. A problem I have, I am 6'2", 201, about 13% bf. I've been traing since I was 18, but have had 4 shoulder sugeries, and 1 back sugery. So it has been off and on, but I was about 190 11% bf before I started AS use. I don't really want to get into my other cycles or diet, because I don't want to just have all of the same info posted that is already all over the boards, let's just say I have read it all. That's why I want to keep this to mostly about HTPA shutdown and recovery.

So, let me know what you think? I appreciate getting advice from someone who is also concerned with hard evidence. I have learned alot from everyone on these boards, but I feel there is still alot more to be learned, at least for me.
thanks

[Mike]

HOLY SHIT!!!

LOL well give me a little bit - I will do the best I can - and BTW you should be able to get some legal supplementation for your test - I would be surprised if any doc in the US wouldn't put you on atleast 100-300mg of test. cyp per week - you have low test levels - you should be in the 500-800/1000 range ideally

[pureanger]

Bows to mike for a excellent post

[Mike]

Thank you bud - appreciate it

[Eddy23]

Hey God that f.... post is great man thanks a lot dude for helping us out man God Bless U.

[dumbells101]

Ok Mikey...I was asked this yesterday in my gym, and this is a great opportunity to bring it up as it is your baby (expertise). My buddy is going to do 400mg of deca every 4 days and 1vial sust 250 each week. That's it. He's got both HCG and Clomid. What do you think. Does he need them both and when should he use them.


And thanks in advance for your input.

[Mike]

You're welcome eddy - and uh...god bless you too...

DB101-

Tell him to ditch the HCG , and get some more sus - double up on it - and carry it just longer than the deca

[dumbells101]

Does he need the Deca 400 every 4 days, and should he start the clomid 2 or 3 weeks after last injection or sooner?

I wish he'd just get a computer and ask you himself!