TRT Candidate? and a friendly hello!

[Black]

New to this board (been on many other fitness/bodybuilding boards) and just wanted to say Hello. Been lurking around for weeks now. Awesome info and forum.

I would like anyones opinion on whether they think I would be a candidate for TRT. Had an Endo do bloodwork. Everything seemed to come back in range, except for total testosterone . Technically it was in range, but on the lower end (300-330). Endo didn't want to do anything about. Said it was "fine". I've read elsewhere that a lot of doctors want the range to be within 600-700. I am 27 years old btw. I have a lot of symptoms (Lethargy, irritability, low sex drive, depressed. I also just don't feel like a 27 year old man should), but wonder whether it's hormones or just other things in life. Advice?

[CrazyCrew]

Could you post the entire set of lab results? Need to include the ranges as well. There are people here who should be able to help if you can post them. IMA even though you are within the "normal" range; a man your age should be in the higher range. Look for another doctor and show them the tests. Good luck CC

[ZonaDave]

your T is low for your age but there are guys in their teens that need hormone replacement. your symptoms are typical to low T.

it's important at this point to determine the cause and see if that can be corrected before TRT. it might be something simple that can easily be corrected to get you back on track. you have to be persistent with finding answers. most doctors have little knowledge of hormone replacement and they all say "you're fine" when you're in range.

along with your results and ranges, can you post some info about yourself (i.e. height, weight, life-style, other medications, etc)?

[zaggahamma]

your T is low for your age but there are guys in their teens that need hormone replacement. your symptoms are typical to low T.

it's important at this point to determine the cause and see if that can be corrected before TRT. it might be something simple that can easily be corrected to get you back on track. you have to be persistent with finding answers. most doctors have little knowledge of hormone replacement and they all say "you're fine" when you're in range.

along with your results and ranges, can you post some info about yourself (i.e. height, weight, life-style, other medications, etc)?

very good advice...i've never seen you post....are there teens that are being prescribed TRT?

[ZonaDave]

very good advice...i've never seen you post....are there teens that are being prescribed TRT?

yes, i know a teen personally who is on T. my doc is treating him.

[Black]

your T is low for your age but there are guys in their teens that need hormone replacement. your symptoms are typical to low T.

it's important at this point to determine the cause and see if that can be corrected before TRT. it might be something simple that can easily be corrected to get you back on track. you have to be persistent with finding answers. most doctors have little knowledge of hormone replacement and they all say "you're fine" when you're in range.

along with your results and ranges, can you post some info about yourself (i.e. height, weight, life-style, other medications, etc)?

I am having my doc fax over the results. When I get it, I will post it here.

My lifestyle around the time I had the test wasn't the greatest. I was cutting, so I was restricting calories (always eat clean), possibly overtraining, drinking (I've since cut it out completely) and not really getting enough sleep. I know none of this is good for you or your test, but to what degree can things like this lower your test?

Best solution would be to have an updated test, however I'm in the middle of jobs and don't have insurance. Are there any cheaper solutions?

Ht: 5'9"
Wt: 159 (I usually sit around 180)
Life-style: Appetite is down, however I'm eating as much as I can (all clean ofcourse), lift full body, heavy 4x a week w/ walking cardio 3x a week, getting more sleep
medications: None. 1 1/2 years ago I finished a 3 year run of SSRIs. Which I feel were (and are) misprescribed. It wasn't until then that I started to feel this way. I had one anxiety/panic attack and next thing I know doc wanted to put me on lexapro. Turned into a mindless zombie and continued taking it. Sucked. Sometimes I feel that it possibly made things worse.

Either way, that's that. Regardless of my lifestyle, I've felt these symptoms for years now. I haven't felt the same in the gym, mentally or physically since then. Weak. My bones feel weak too. Hard to explain.

[ZonaDave]

I am having my doc fax over the results. When I get it, I will post it here.

My lifestyle around the time I had the test wasn't the greatest. I was cutting, so I was restricting calories (always eat clean), possibly overtraining, drinking (I've since cut it out completely) and not really getting enough sleep. I know none of this is good for you or your test, but to what degree can things like this lower your test?

Best solution would be to have an updated test, however I'm in the middle of jobs and don't have insurance. Are there any cheaper solutions?

Ht: 5'9"
Wt: 159 (I usually sit around 180)
Life-style: Appetite is down, however I'm eating as much as I can (all clean ofcourse), lift full body, heavy 4x a week w/ walking cardio 3x a week, getting more sleep
medications: None. 1 1/2 years ago I finished a 3 year run of SSRIs. Which I feel were (and are) misprescribed. It wasn't until then that I started to feel this way. I had one anxiety/panic attack and next thing I know doc wanted to put me on lexapro. Turned into a mindless zombie and continued taking it. Sucked. Sometimes I feel that it possibly made things worse.

Either way, that's that. Regardless of my lifestyle, I've felt these symptoms for years now. I haven't felt the same in the gym, mentally or physically since then. Weak. My bones feel weak too. Hard to explain.

it's not hard to understand at all man. we all shared those symptoms at one point or another. low T is a F'd up feeling.

alot of doctors treat the symptoms and not the cause.

Total T is a small part of the picture. you can have high Total T but low Free T and feel like crap. or you can have relatively low Total T and good Free T and feel great.

there will be more to your story when you post all your results with ranges. what time of the day did they draw blood?

[Black]

it's not hard to understand at all man. we all shared those symptoms at one point or another. low T is a F'd up feeling.

alot of doctors treat the symptoms and not the cause.

Total T is a small part of the picture. you can have high Total T but low Free T and feel like crap. or you can have relatively low Total T and good Free T and feel great.

there will be more to your story when you post all your results with ranges. what time of the day did they draw blood?

Thanks man, I appreciate that. It is messed up. It's hard to explain to others why also (that don't understand). I've been trying to educated others close to me so they know what's going on. I've always felt like there was something "off" so to speak.

They will be faxing over tomorrow, so I'll post then. I remember it has the ranges and everything on there. I also remember my Free T being (what I thought) was in the ok range. But I definitely remember my Total T being lower in the range. I think my Total T was 300-330 in a range of 240 to 1200. We'll see when I post the results.

Also, my blood was drawn in the afternoon. Thanks.

[ZonaDave]

Thanks man, I appreciate that. It is messed up. It's hard to explain to others why also (that don't understand). I've been trying to educated others close to me so they know what's going on. I've always felt like there was something "off" so to speak.

They will be faxing over tomorrow, so I'll post then. I remember it has the ranges and everything on there. I also remember my Free T being (what I thought) was in the ok range. But I definitely remember my Total T being lower in the range. I think my Total T was 300-330 in a range of 240 to 1200. We'll see when I post the results.

Also, my blood was drawn in the afternoon. Thanks.

sounds good man...looking forward to seeing your test results!

[CrazyCrew]

[QUOTE= " It is messed up. It's hard to explain to others why also (that don't understand). I've been trying to educated others close to me so they know what's going on. I've always felt like there was something "off" so to speak." QUOTE]


It can be daunting at times to try to explain it; even to people close to you. I went to have myself tested for alzhiemers before I found out it was hormones. Still not able to work yet but at least the fog lifted. look forward to your posts..

[Black]

[QUOTE=CrazyCrew;4443035]

It can be daunting at times to try to explain it; even to people close to you. I went to have myself tested for alzhiemers before I found out it was hormones. Still not able to work yet but at least the fog lifted. look forward to your posts..

I was going to PM you, but I don't think I can yet. I was curious what your symptoms were. I didn't want to get too personal, but was curious what and how it was affecting you.

[CrazyCrew]

Same as anyone with low Testosterone . I was unable to concentrate or make sound decisions. I was driving to town one day and realized I had no clue what I was going to town for. Turned around and went home. The best way I've heard it discribed is like your in fog. No sex drive at all; fatigued so badly that I couldn't or didn't want to work; trouble sleeping; weight gain (comfort food); No interest in going or doing anything, even chores around the house.

A few friends tried to convince me I was depressed. I had no Idea what was wrong but didn't think it was depression. Thats when I went to the VA hospital to get checked for alzhiemers.
After the BW showed my test was low a friend who was on trt gave me an injection of his test. It was like I walked out of a fog and I felt years younger. That was when I started this quest and haven't looked back.

[Black]

Same as anyone with low Testosterone . I was unable to concentrate or make sound decisions. I was driving to town one day and realized I had no clue what I was going to town for. Turned around and went home. The best way I've heard it discribed is like your in fog. No sex drive at all; fatigued so badly that I couldn't or didn't want to work; trouble sleeping; weight gain (comfort food); No interest in going or doing anything, even chores around the house.

A few friends tried to convince me I was depressed. I had no Idea what was wrong but didn't think it was depression. Thats when I went to the VA hospital to get checked for alzhiemers.
After the BW showed my test was low a friend who was on trt unbeknownst to me gave me an injection of his test. It was like I walked out of a fog and I felt years younger. That was when I started this quest and haven't looked back.

That's exactly how I'm feeling. Exactly. If you don't mind, after I post my ranges could you post yours? What was your Total T?

[CrazyCrew]

At that time my TT was 330. At your age you should be close to the top of the range (900) or so. But thereare a lot of issues at play here. Something else could be done to return your natural T to optimal level. That is why you'll need a complete blood essay done that includes a full male hormone panel, E2,t4,t3, ect.

[ZonaDave]

Same as anyone with low Testosterone . I was unable to concentrate or make sound decisions. I was driving to town one day and realized I had no clue what I was going to town for. Turned around and went home. The best way I've heard it discribed is like your in fog. No sex drive at all; fatigued so badly that I couldn't or didn't want to work; trouble sleeping; weight gain (comfort food); No interest in going or doing anything, even chores around the house.

A few friends tried to convince me I was depressed. I had no Idea what was wrong but didn't think it was depression. Thats when I went to the VA hospital to get checked for alzhiemers.
After the BW showed my test was low a friend who was on trt unbeknownst to me gave me an injection of his test. It was like I walked out of a fog and I felt years younger. That was when I started this quest and haven't looked back.

how did your buddy give you a shot of T without you knowing? or do you mean you didn't know he was on TRT?

[CrazyCrew]

how did your buddy give you a shot of T without you knowing? or do you mean you didn't know he was on TRT?

LOL I didn't know he was on T. I'll edit it.

[Silver-Bolt]

Same as anyone with low Testosterone . I was unable to concentrate or make sound decisions. I was driving to town one day and realized I had no clue what I was going to town for. Turned around and went home. The best way I've heard it discribed is like your in fog. No sex drive at all; fatigued so badly that I couldn't or didn't want to work; trouble sleeping; weight gain (comfort food); No interest in going or doing anything, even chores around the house.

A few friends tried to convince me I was depressed. I had no Idea what was wrong but didn't think it was depression. Thats when I went to the VA hospital to get checked for alzhiemers.
After the BW showed my test was low a friend who was on trt gave me an injection of his test. It was like I walked out of a fog and I felt years younger. That was when I started this quest and haven't looked back.

Going through this right now. My results came back of total test at 422 with a range of 300-1520. Doc said no-go on perscribing Test. Tuesday this week I shot 100mg of Test-E and today the fog has cleared. Unbelievable difference. I feel like a living being again. I got so bad I even gave up on going to the gym about a month ago. Today I an ****us to get back to working out and burn the fat I gained. At 44 I was feeling like I was 70. Today I feel more like a real 44. With any luck and continuing weekly shots (on my own) I will feel even better. Too bad it takes breaking the law to feel human again.

[ZonaDave]

LOL I didn't know he was on T. I'll edit it.

lol...i was just messing with you bro, i knew what you meant.

[ZonaDave]

Going through this right now. My results came back of total test at 422 with a range of 300-1520. Doc said no-go on perscribing Test. Tuesday this week I shot 100mg of Test-E and today the fog has cleared. Unbelievable difference. I feel like a living being again. I got so bad I even gave up on going to the gym about a month ago. Today I an ****us to get back to working out and burn the fat I gained. At 44 I was feeling like I was 70. Today I feel more like a real 44. With any luck and continuing weekly shots (on my own) I will feel even better. Too bad it takes breaking the law to feel human again.

take the 100mg/week for a few months, then stop for a few weeks before going in and getting tested again. i'm sure you'll get a script then.

[Silver-Bolt]

take the 100mg/week for a few months, then stop for a few weeks before going in and getting tested again. i'm sure you'll get a script then.

Good to know. I will do that.

[ZonaDave]

Good to know. I will do that.

even though it would work, i was joking about that.

can you post all your levels with ranges in a seperate thread so we can check them out? i'd like to see your Free T.

alot of guys get hung up on Total T numbers when that's just part of it.

[Silver-Bolt]

even though it would work, i was joking about that.

can you post all your levels with ranges in a seperate thread so we can check them out? i'd like to see your Free T.

alot of guys get hung up on Total T numbers when that's just part of it.

I am still waiting for those numbers myself. So far I just have the basics.

[Black]

Finally got the results.

Testosterone , Free 77.9 (35.0 - 155.0) pg/mL

Testosterone, Free and Total, LC/MS/MS Testosterone, Total 307 (250-1100) ng/dL

% Free Testosterone 2.18 (1.5-2.2) %

Opinions? I've been to 3 Endos, plus family doc and all say I am "fine". I don't feel fine, and they neglect to listen to that. The only thing one of them wanted to do was to put me on an SSRI (again). I refused as I had been on one for about 2.5 years and still felt the same.

[Silver-Bolt]

What else have they tested for? Thyroid, estrogen, etc?

[Black]

What else have they tested for? Thyroid, estrogen, etc?

T-4 (THYROXINE), FREE T4 FREE 1.39 (.80-1.8) NG/DL

THYROID STIMULATING HORMONE 3.1 (.4-4.5) IO/ML

Don't see anything for E2, Estrogen, Estrdiol or anything. ****ers.

[Black]

Since I couldn't get any of the Endos or docs to help, I took my bloodwork, physical or medical information to an "anti-aging" type doc. After reviewing, he recommended the following for TRT

Testosterone Cypionate 200mg/ml: Take 1.5ml. per week.
HCG 10,000 units: Take 500 units 2x per week.
Arimidex 0.5mg: Take 3 caps per week.

Whether high or whatever, bottom line is I can't afford this treatment forever. Too expensive. From what I've read, it's not recommended to stay on HCG for a long period of time. Same with Arimidex. It's sad that this is the only help I can get, but I do appreciate the attention to this matter, whether the doses may be off. So what should I do? No help from doctors. The above treatment is too expensive. Either way, if it comes down to it, I'm going to "treat" myself. I can't go another day feeling like this. I just want to make sure I have everything in order.

[CrazyCrew]

Finally got the results.

Testosterone , Free 77.9 (35.0 - 155.0) pg/mL

Testosterone, Free and Total, LC/MS/MS Testosterone, Total 307 (250-1100) ng/dL

% Free Testosterone 2.18 (1.5-2.2) %

Opinions? I've been to 3 Endos, plus family doc and all say I am "fine". I don't feel fine, and they neglect to listen to that. The only thing one of them wanted to do was to put me on an SSRI (again). I refused as I had been on one for about 2.5 years and still felt the same.

With Free test numbers like that you should be great. I would strongly suspect E2.

[ZonaDave]

Since I couldn't get any of the Endos or docs to help, I took my bloodwork, physical or medical information to an "anti-aging" type doc. After reviewing, he recommended the following for TRT

Testosterone Cypionate 200mg/ml: Take 1.5ml. per week.
HCG 10,000 units: Take 500 units 2x per week.
Arimidex 0.5mg: Take 3 caps per week.

Whether high or whatever, bottom line is I can't afford this treatment forever. Too expensive. From what I've read, it's not recommended to stay on HCG for a long period of time. Same with Arimidex. It's sad that this is the only help I can get, but I do appreciate the attention to this matter, whether the doses may be off. So what should I do? No help from doctors. The above treatment is too expensive. Either way, if it comes down to it, I'm going to "treat" myself. I can't go another day feeling like this. I just want to make sure I have everything in order.

are you sure you are on 300mg of TC/week?

[Black]

are you sure you are on 300mg of TC/week?

No. I just checked with an anti-aging doctor and gave him my bloodwork and asked what he would recommend. Above is what he recommended. I haven't been prescribed that, nor do I have it. It's just what he thinks I should be on. Haven't started anything. Those are current numbers.


That's what's strange. My total test is low (to me atleast), but my free test seems ok or in range. I am going to pull my bloodwork again and make sure I didn't miss any estrogen tests.

EDIT: I did. E2 @ 63 (0-40). What does this mean?

[Black]

With Free test numbers like that you should be great. I would strongly suspect E2.

That's what I'm starting to think. My Free Test seems ok or atleast in range. I remember about 8 months back, I took an OTC AI (Trione by NP) to help boost natty test and eliminate any bloat. I remember my muscles seem to feel fuller and it was the leanest I had ever been (abdomen shrunk and abs literally popped out. I was cutting at the time too).

BTW, if you didn't see the last post. E2 @ 63 (0-40).

[ZonaDave]

No. I just checked with an anti-aging doctor and gave him my bloodwork and asked what he would recommend. Above is what he recommended. I haven't been prescribed that, nor do I have it. It's just what he thinks I should be on. Haven't started anything. Those are current numbers.


That's what's strange. My total test is low (to me atleast), but my free test seems ok or in range. I am going to pull my bloodwork again and make sure I didn't miss any estrogen tests.

EDIT: I did. E2 @ 63 (0-40). What does this mean?

that suggested protocol looks too high especially without knowing how your will respond to TRT. when dialing in your hormones you don't want to start high and work down, you want to start low and work up. i've never heard of a doctor starting a patient out on half your recommended protocol. he's putting you on a cycle with that protocol. that might be a good thing because at least you know he's not too conservative.

based on these numbers i don't think your Free T looks that great.
Total T 307 (Range 250-1100) ng
Free T 77.9 (Range 35.0 - 155.0) pg/mL

95.0 is the mid point for this Free T range. if you said your Free T was 150 i would agree then that it looked good.

"in range" doesn't mean much when you're on the low end. your Free T should be alot higher than that. your total T is on the low end also. that's not to say you don't have high E2 but your first goal is to get your T's up for about 6 weeks and then retest to see where your numbers are. if you have high E2 at that point then add an AI as required.

try taking 50mg of zinc per day and that will help keep your E2 in check. B12 is also a good add because your adrenals love it.

[CrazyCrew]

Once again ZD your right on. I looked at (% Free Testosterone 2.18 (1.5-2.2) %) . Test numbers too low. The E2 at 60 on its own would be enough to knock most people down. It would cause the same symptoms as low T.

[ZonaDave]

it is a little surprising to see your E2 that high. i'm sure getting that down with an AI will help quite a bit but you'd have to try it first to see if it was enough. if it's not then you'd have to pump some T into you.

it would free up your T and i'm sure you'd feel alot better. Free T is where you get the biggest bang for your buck.

you can have high TT with low FT and feel like crap, and you can have low range TT with high FT and feel great.

[flatscat]

[QUOTE=ZonaDave;4456096]it is a little surprising to see your E2 that high. i'm sure getting that down with an AI will help quite a bit but you'd have to try it first to see if it was enough. if it's not then you'd have to pump some T into you.

it would free up your T and i'm sure you'd feel alot better. Free T is where you get the biggest bang for your buck.

you can have high TT with low FT and feel like crap, and you can have low range TT with high FT and feel great.[/QUOTE

I agree Dave. You may want to run an AI alone for 3-4 weeks and retest. I know there are several of us that wish we would have tried that to start with. If it brings your E2 down to the low range but does not bump your t up that much then I think you are better off starting your t with your AI in check. You will need to bump your AI dose up after you start your t to keep E2 in range while your t levels rise.

If it lowers E2 and raises T then you might be good to go with an AI alone.

[Black]

So hypothetically speaking, if I were to be on TRT, would I need to constantly take an AI with it? Also, I've read that HCG can increase E2 over a period of time. However, it's benefits of raising natural testosterone levels seems desired. Would it need to be in a sense "cycled"?

Kind of a werid question, but are the size of your testes a low test indicator? Because not to be too forward, but mine have shrunk...big time.

Can an AI permanently lower E2? Like others, I'd rather not have to be on something the rest of my life. However, if it means feeling normal, then I will.

[Black]

I tested a while ago after I took an OTC AI. My E2 lower to around 25 and my test was at 357. I felt better, but not completely. I wasn't as irritable, but I still had a lot of the same symptoms. Free test stayed the same as above.

[ZonaDave]

So hypothetically speaking, if I were to be on TRT, would I need to constantly take an AI with it? Also, I've read that HCG can increase E2 over a period of time. However, it's benefits of raising natural testosterone levels seems desired. Would it need to be in a sense "cycled"?

Kind of a werid question, but are the size of your testes a low test indicator? Because not to be too forward, but mine have shrunk...big time.

Can an AI permanently lower E2? Like others, I'd rather not have to be on something the rest of my life. However, if it means feeling normal, then I will.

some guys on TRT don't convert alot of the T to E so they need little or no AI. i think these guys are the exception, not the rule. most guys i know have to take something to keep their E2 in check. HCG will increase your natural T production and as T goes up, so does E2. how much it goes up is an individual thing. i've heard of guys cycling it but i don't cycle anything with my TRT protocol. once i get things dialed in i don't mess with it.

your body changes over time so your blood has to be periodically monitored and your protocol "adjusted" as required. for example, body fat affects the T to E conversion so as you gain or lose weight you will most likely have to adjust your AI dosage.

an AI doesn't permanently lower your E2 just like taking T doesn't permanently raise your T. you have to keep taking it. the conversion process doesn't stop and as soon as you stop taking it your T will convert.

none of us want to take something for the rest of our lives and i'm sure everyone on here at some point has wondered "why me?". well, that's just something you're going to have to get over. this happens to every man at some point in his life, just like all women go through menopause. some guys start losing their hair when they are 18 and some have a full head of hair when they are 65...it's just one of those things.

consider yourself fortunate that you know what the problem is and there's a solution. think of how many guys are out there walking around like zombies, feeling like shit, and not having any clue why. then they go to their doctor, he runs some tests and tells them "everything is fine, your hormones are in range".

[Black]

some guys on TRT don't convert alot of the T to E so they need little or no AI. i think these guys are the exception, not the rule. most guys i know have to take something to keep their E2 in check. HCG will increase your natural T production and as T goes up, so does E2. how much it goes up is an individual thing. i've heard of guys cycling it but i don't cycle anything with my TRT protocol. once i get things dialed in i don't mess with it.

your body changes over time so your blood has to be periodically monitored and your protocol "adjusted" as required. for example, body fat affects the T to E conversion so as you gain or lose weight you will most likely have to adjust your AI dosage.

an AI doesn't permanently lower your E2 just like taking T doesn't permanently raise your T. you have to keep taking it. the conversion process doesn't stop and as soon as you stop taking it your T will convert.

none of us want to take something for the rest of our lives and i'm sure everyone on here at some point has wondered "why me?". well, that's just something you're going to have to get over. this happens to every man at some point in his life, just like all women go through menopause. some guys start losing their hair when they are 18 and some have a full head of hair when they are 65...it's just one of those things.

consider yourself fortunate that you know what the problem is and there's a solution. think of how many guys are out there walking around like zombies, feeling like shit, and not having any clue why. then they go to their doctor, he runs some tests and tells them "everything is fine, your hormones are in range".

Very true. I am happy that I have finally figured out what is wrong and that there is hope to fixing it. And like I said above, I'd rather not have to take something the rest of my life, but if it means feeling normal again, then bring it on. Injecting myself every week for the rest of my life will be better than this.

Also, I always have Zinc and B12 (among other vitamins and minerals) as a part of my intake.

So what do I do? The doctor wrote out a protocol, which to me is too much to start out with (like you said above). I would just make matters worse if I were to do a cycle, right? So do I start my own regime of TRT? Anyone have any TRT dose advice?

What about running Test Cyp every week. Then every 2 months run 4 weeks of HCG and Arimidex ? Would it be beneficial to keep Nolvadex on hand incase I need an estrogen blocker? Same with an AI? I don't know, I'm just trying to come up with a plan. Any help appreciated.

[ZonaDave]

Very true. I am happy that I have finally figured out what is wrong and that there is hope to fixing it. And like I said above, I'd rather not have to take something the rest of my life, but if it means feeling normal again, then bring it on. Injecting myself every week for the rest of my life will be better than this.

Also, I always have Zinc and B12 (among other vitamins and minerals) as a part of my intake.

So what do I do? The doctor wrote out a protocol, which to me is too much to start out with (like you said above). I would just make matters worse if I were to do a cycle, right? So do I start my own regime of TRT? Anyone have any TRT dose advice?

What about running Test Cyp every week. Then every 2 months run 4 weeks of HCG and Arimidex? Would it be beneficial to keep Nolvadex on hand incase I need an estrogen blocker? Same with an AI? I don't know, I'm just trying to come up with a plan. Any help appreciated.

do you like this doctor? if so, discuss your concerns about the protocol being too much to start with. like i said earlier, this is a good quality in a doctor. most docs don't have a problem toning things down a little. they usually have patients trying to get more. tell him you'd like to try this:

sat - 250IU HCG
sun - 250IU HCG
mon - 100mg Test Cyp.

NOTE: front load the first shot with 200mg, then 100mg each week after that.

run that for about 6 weeks and retest to see where your numbers are. on that protocol you'll know how your body responds to HCG and TC then you can make a dosage adjustment and possibly add a-dex to keep E2 in check. most guys do very well on 100mg-200mg/week of TC.

[Black]

do you like this doctor? if so, discuss your concerns about the protocol being too much to start with. like i said earlier, this is a good quality in a doctor. most docs don't have a problem toning things down a little. they usually have patients trying to get more. tell him you'd like to try this:

sat - 250IU HCG
sun - 250IU HCG
mon - 100mg Test Cyp.

NOTE: front load the first shot with 200mg, then 100mg each week after that.

run that for about 6 weeks and retest to see where your numbers are. on that protocol you'll know how your body responds to HCG and TC then you can make a dosage adjustment and possibly add a-dex to keep E2 in check. most guys do very well on 100mg-200mg/week of TC.

Yeah, he seems like a good doctor. Very open and listens to what I have to say.

Should I put more time in between the HCG (say mon. & thurs.) or are they ok that close together? Also should I split the cyp into two injections during the week or will it matter because it's a lower dose?

Also, would it help to keep nolvadex and clomid around to prevent any noticable increase in estrogen and to keep the receptors block? Could it also help with natural test levels?