Hcg pro's / cons(if any)

[Warrior1700]

Crap...Looking back on my old blood work, I dont think the Doc I started with cheked for LH and FSH...I didnt go to an Endo at the time, I went to a liberal "vitality" Doc to get some Test for BB benefits and then all the rest followed. Kinda the cart before the horse thing. Ugggg.... Thanks guys for all the inpt thus far. Althought I liek my balls staying a lil plump and down more, I think I will stop it for now and see where my levels end up in about a month or so. I will be taking the Arimadex .25mg 2x/weekly with my 300mg Test and see where I am @ ....

[ZonaDave]

alot of doctors don't perform the proper initial testing and either deny the patient TRT or they put them on a protocol right away without deteremining the cause.

some people have pituitary issues that are relatively easily corrected and don't require TRT.

good job on starting off with adex .25mg 2x/week!

over the past year i've tried low, medium and high doses of T with and without HCG and never noticed that much of a difference but the biggest change for me came from regulating E2 with adex. i'm not sure if it's possible to just stay on one single dose of adex and keep E2 in the sweet spot...still working on this one. right now i'm between .25mg E3D to EOD depending on symptoms.

i pretty much have the same symptoms whether my E2 is too high or too low. the only symptom i get that's different is when my E2 is low is get clicky and sore knees.

so, i know if i have low libido and ED with clicky knees i'm too low. if i have low libido and ED without clicky knees i'm too high. everyone is a little different but it seems clicky joints are very common for alot of guys when too low. when low for too long the joints start getting sore, almost like an arthritis feeling.

just something to keep an eye on if HCG is added to a protocol.

[kesam1]

I've had the same troubles trying to differentiate between low and high E2 the main two differences for me are watery fat look to the whole of the body on high E2 with oily skin. Lethargy is worse for me on low E2 with stiff joints. I am currently on 200iu Thursday and Sunday seems to be working ok with oily skin appearing weds to thursday

[zaggahamma]

alot of doctors don't perform the proper initial testing and either deny the patient TRT or they put them on a protocol right away without deteremining the cause.

some people have pituitary issues that are relatively easily corrected and don't require TRT.

good job on starting off with adex .25mg 2x/week!

over the past year i've tried low, medium and high doses of T with and without HCG and never noticed that much of a difference but the biggest change for me came from regulating E2 with adex. i'm not sure if it's possible to just stay on one single dose of adex and keep E2 in the sweet spot...still working on this one. right now i'm between .25mg E3D to EOD depending on symptoms.

i pretty much have the same symptoms whether my E2 is too high or too low. the only symptom i get that's different is when my E2 is low is get clicky and sore knees.

so, i know if i have low libido and ED with clicky knees i'm too low. if i have low libido and ED without clicky knees i'm too high. everyone is a little different but it seems clicky joints are very common for alot of guys when too low. when low for too long the joints start getting sore, almost like an arthritis feeling.

just something to keep an eye on if HCG is added to a protocol.

this is the same with me....my template is to do .25 eod...but sometimes...nips get sensitive/sore so i may go back to back days sometimes so sometimes actually most weeks will be .25 4 times a week

[zaggahamma]

I've had the same troubles trying to differentiate between low and high E2 the main two differences for me are watery fat look to the whole of the body on high E2 with oily skin. Lethargy is worse for me on low E2 with stiff joints. I am currently on 200iu Thursday and Sunday seems to be working ok with oily skin appearing weds to thursday

well wut else do you take? just hcg ?

[kesam1]

Nebido split into 4 *1ml inj taken every two weeks plus hcg and liquidex as described

[Black]

I run a vial of HCG every few months or so, just to help wake up the natty test levels just so they don't feel forgotten. When I take it, I don't feel any different. The boys drop and feel more full and bigger (which is a good sign), but I don't see/feel anything else.

My opinion is to run it every once in a while just to keep things in check. Can't really hurt, other than $$$ and E2 levels. However, I don't feel any increase in high estrogen side effects.

[zaggahamma]

I run a vial of HCG every few months or so, just to help wake up the natty test levels just so they don't feel forgotten. When I take it, I don't feel any different. The boys drop and feel more full and bigger (which is a good sign), but I don't see/feel anything else.

My opinion is to run it every once in a while just to keep things in check. Can't really hurt, other than $$$ and E2 levels. However, I don't feel any increase in high estrogen side effects.

thanks for your input

[fm2002]

i think it gets a little harder to determine after starting TRT.

before starting TRT, doctors can have a pretty good idea by testing LH and FSH levels. if those levels are high it means your pituitary is sending a strong message to the balls for more T. this indicates that you're primary because your balls aren't capable of producing adequate amounts of T.

if LH and FSH is low it means that the pituitary isn't sending a strong enough message to the balls to produce more T. this indicates secondary because it's your pituitary.

once TRT is started your LH and FSH levels change and can't really be used to determine primary or secondary.

guys who are secondary usually do very well when HCG is added to the protocol because it gets the balls producing when the pituitary couldn't.

even when you're primary, HCG can assist by producing the small amounts of hormones like they did before TRT was started. some people think every little bit helps while others think HCG isn't required. people have been on TRT long before HCG came on the scene so it's an individual decision.

Ok Dr. Zona I went back and pulled out my baseline blood tests from 2008. My FSH was 7.86 mIU/ml (1.70-11.00) and my LH was 4.54 mIU/ml (.500-6.00). I list the ranges, but I have to add they come from a non anti-aging hospital so I'm not sure if they are correct. If they are it shows I'm high on both, but within range.

My most recent test July 2009 I have only LH which was <0.1 mIU/ml (1.1-7.0).

What are your thoughts ?

My protocol:

HGH 2iu's 6on/1off
125mg Test E once a week
Arimidex .25 eod

[ZonaDave]

Ok Dr. Zona I went back and pulled out my baseline blood tests from 2008. My FSH was 7.86 mIU/ml (1.70-11.00) and my LH was 4.54 mIU/ml (.500-6.00). I list the ranges, but I have to add they come from a non anti-aging hospital so I'm not sure if they are correct. If they are it shows I'm high on both, but within range.

My most recent test July 2009 I have only LH which was <0.1 mIU/ml (1.1-7.0).

What are your thoughts ?

My protocol:

HGH 2iu's 6on/1off
125mg Test E once a week
Arimidex .25 eod

according to your original numbers it looks like you are primary. how do you feel on that protocol? do you notice anything from the GH? i heard mixed reviews on that.

[zaggahamma]

according to your original numbers it looks like you are primary. how do you feel on that protocol? do you notice anything from the GH? i heard mixed reviews on that.

i dont remember hearing much bad about growth

[Vettester]

Jpkman, I will be starting my HCG protocol this coming Friday, 11/13, and will take 500IU/ed for 10 days straight. My last shot of Test C was a week ago on Friday, 10/30. So, I'm off for two weeks, then they've got on HCG for basically two weeks, then I wait a week and start back up on my weekly Test C regiment (200mg/wk).

Right now, I feel fine, but it's only been 9 days since my last shot. I'll let you know how it goes when I start the HCG, and what changes I see from start to finish.

Also, to comment on the "GH" subject. I have also heard really good things about it. The only negative to speak of is the cost of it, and maybe that it seems to take several months to really kick in.

[zaggahamma]

Jpkman, I will be starting my HCG protocol this coming Friday, 11/13, and will take 500IU/ed for 10 days straight. My last shot of Test C was a week ago on Friday, 10/30. So, I'm off for two weeks, then they've got on HCG for basically two weeks, then I wait a week and start back up on my weekly Test C regiment (200mg/wk).

Right now, I feel fine, but it's only been 9 days since my last shot. I'll let you know how it goes when I start the HCG, and what changes I see from start to finish.

Also, to comment on the "GH" subject. I have also heard really good things about it. The only negative to speak of is the cost of it, and maybe that it seems to take several months to really kick in.

yes same here ....zona will chime soon i'm sure.....

and thanks for posting up your protocol and keeping it updated....i had no idea you would run it EVERYDAY

[tm123]

Ok so after reading this thread I'm really confused as to what to do. I'm on 200mg/ week of Test Cyp, 0.5 mg adex 2x/week. I recently started HCG (early september) just to keep my boys producing and I've lately noticed some erectile issues. I was told this could be because the E2 is too high, likely due to the HCG. It was suggested by some others on this site to just drop the HCG alltogether, but shouldn't just increasing the adex take care of the elevated E2? I can't decide now whether to drop the HCG or not.
Also, I went back to my pretreatment bloodwork, and my LH was 6.8 (1.5-9.3 range). So anyway, I'm not sure what to do. I'm certainly getting an education though.

[ZonaDave]

Jpkman, I will be starting my HCG protocol this coming Friday, 11/13, and will take 500IU/ed for 10 days straight. My last shot of Test C was a week ago on Friday, 10/30. So, I'm off for two weeks, then they've got on HCG for basically two weeks, then I wait a week and start back up on my weekly Test C regiment (200mg/wk).

Right now, I feel fine, but it's only been 9 days since my last shot. I'll let you know how it goes when I start the HCG, and what changes I see from start to finish.

Also, to comment on the "GH" subject. I have also heard really good things about it. The only negative to speak of is the cost of it, and maybe that it seems to take several months to really kick in.

that's all i menat about the negatives about GH. i know quite a few guys on it and beside the price it takes a long time to see results and some don't feel it's worth it. my levels have always been pretty good so my doc never recommended going on it. it runs about $400/month here.

[ZonaDave]

Ok so after reading this thread I'm really confused as to what to do. I'm on 200mg/ week of Test Cyp, 0.5 mg adex 2x/week. I recently started HCG (early september) just to keep my boys producing and I've lately noticed some erectile issues. I was told this could be because the E2 is too high, likely due to the HCG. It was suggested by some others on this site to just drop the HCG alltogether, but shouldn't just increasing the adex take care of the elevated E2? I can't decide now whether to drop the HCG or not.
Also, I went back to my pretreatment bloodwork, and my LH was 6.8 (1.5-9.3 range). So anyway, I'm not sure what to do. I'm certainly getting an education though.

if you want to keep using HCG you would be better off reducing your T dosage accordingly rather than increasing your adex dose.

[tm123]

thanks dave. So knowing what "accordingly" is though can only be determined through bloodwork. One can go broke with bloodwork. Anybody know a relatively inexpensive way to get bloodwork done?

[ZonaDave]

thanks dave. So knowing what "accordingly" is though can only be determined through bloodwork. One can go broke with bloodwork. Anybody know a relatively inexpensive way to get bloodwork done?

there are good on-line labs like http://www.privatemdlabs.com/ but it can still get expensive if you run alot of test.

i hear different people say that HCG can raise your T by 200-300 points. in which case you can try dropping your T down to 120mg-150mg and keep your HCG at around 200iu 2x/week.

[tm123]

Thanks, I'll check that out.

Believe it or not, I just ran out of HCG today, and I noticed that the doctor had prescribed 250 units on the two days before Test, and one day after. I didn't realize it said anything about a third day, so I've only been taking 2/3rds of what was prescribed.

[fm2002]

according to your original numbers it looks like you are primary. how do you feel on that protocol? do you notice anything from the GH? i heard mixed reviews on that.

I do notice the HGH. It sort of creeps up on you. Been on it 4 months. Have recently pumped the HGH to 3iu's a day and will see what that does.

[ZonaDave]

I do notice the HGH. It sort of creeps up on you. Been on it 4 months. Have recently pumped the HGH to 3iu's a day and will see what that does.

how much does it cost you per month? what are your IGF-1 levels on it?

[flatscat]

I do notice the HGH. It sort of creeps up on you. Been on it 4 months. Have recently pumped the HGH to 3iu's a day and will see what that does.

What have you noticed about the HGH?

[Warrior1700]

My last Inj of HCG was on Nov 27th...I dunno if its in my head already but I feel and see that my boys have already started to come up some and not feel as plump. I am probably gonna stay off of it for awhile and get some more blood work in about a month to see where I am at with my T and E2 levels without the HCG. I wanna keep up the HCG cuz I like my boys feeling bigger but if its just asthetic then what does it really matter? But I think I want to see where I am at without it more. In case it is adding to my elevated E2 which in turn may be still causing some of my ED issues(?)

I wish I could "feel" wheter my E2 is elevated ot too low like some of you...that would help. I just cant tell I guess.

So my regime is now self injected(finally got my ins to approve the script) 300mg Test Cyp with 1cc B 12 1x week, and Arimidex .25 2x weekly. No more Deca (cant get it filled anyhow) Blood test in about a month or so...

[zaggahamma]

My last Inj of HCG was on Nov 27th...I dunno if its in my head already but I feel and see that my boys have already started to come up some and not feel as plump. I am probably gonna stay off of it for awhile and get some more blood work in about a month to see where I am at with my T and E2 levels without the HCG. I wanna keep up the HCG cuz I like my boys feeling bigger but if its just asthetic then what does it really matter? But I think I want to see where I am at without it more. In case it is adding to my elevated E2 which in turn may be still causing some of my ED issues(?)

I wish I could "feel" wheter my E2 is elevated ot too low like some of you...that would help. I just cant tell I guess.

So my regime is now self injected(finally got my ins to approve the script) 300mg Test Cyp with 1cc B 12 1x week, and Arimidex .25 2x weekly. No more Deca (cant get it filled anyhow) Blood test in about a month or so...

thanks for getting the thread back to HCG....300mg test ew wowsers....i'm wondering if i read not only the hcg brings the boys back but also produce higher volume of semen...i cant remember

[Warrior1700]

thanks for getting the thread back to HCG....300mg test ew wowsers....i'm wondering if i read not only the hcg brings the boys back but also produce higher volume of semen...i cant remember

I was waiting to have more info to pass along. I know 300mg is a bit high for TRT, although my Test numbers dont reflect that. Dave has a few suggestions on that.

That's why I am dropping the HCG for now and started .25mg 2x weekly Arimidex . See where I am at a 4-6 weeks. Not sure about the semen production, havn't heard that it helps out there. I just know that after prolonged exogenous Test, we are likely to become sterile.

[fm2002]

how much does it cost you per month? what are your IGF-1 levels on it?

Not sure if I can discuss price here, but will say I direct source it from China so it for me is not cost prohibitive.

IGF-1 levels:

Baseline: 109
1.6iu's ED: 310
2iu's ED: 346
3iu's: on this dose for 2 1/2 weeks. will have blood tested in about 2 weeks

[fm2002]

What have you noticed about the HGH?

It's very subtle. When I started I noticed very little until about the 3 month mark. After that I noticed my recovery from exercise and partying was greatly shortened. I also noticed a definition in muscle growth and even when I had to stop working out for a short while I retained most of my muscle. My energy levels in the beginning were noticeably greater, but have plateued. This why I have increased my daily dose. Also hoping for some assisted weight loss.

FYI - have a friend who is about 10yrs. older than that has mirrored my protocol. He has enjoyed much more noticeable results. As he puts it "life changing" ! I think the older in life you start the greater the bang.

[flatscat]

thanks FM and sorry for getting off subject JP

[zaggahamma]

thanks FM and sorry for getting off subject JP

no problem just a little jealous cuz i cant afford gh

bump for hcg