Stopping TRT

**warchild** · 11-15-2011, 06:54 PM

oh good, just asking cus your post said you were gonna wheen off clomid so i thought to myself why just not take a shot now??

**warchild** · 11-15-2011, 06:57 PM

good good. yea about 4-5 weeks for full effects. oh well you know its in your system now so that in its self is a good feeling

**abbot138** · 11-15-2011, 07:00 PM

Originally Posted by warchild

oh good, just asking cus your post said you were gonna wheen off clomid so i thought to myself why just not take a shot now??

Oh i did....and im just gonna stop the clomid, i thought you had to ween off by ive been told otherwise. Gonna front load Aromasin to get it going. Threw in 15mg of prop with my 40mg cyp so I can feel it sooner, will do the prop 3 times a week for first 2 weeks until cyp is in my system, and Cyp 40mg twice a week....Then probably start my actual TRT dose at 60mg Cyp 2 times a week. And Aromasin at 12.5mgs every third day.

**warchild** · 11-15-2011, 07:02 PM

Originally Posted by abbot138

Oh i did....and im just gonna stop the clomid, i thought you had to ween off by ive been told otherwise. Gonna front load Aromasin to get it going. Threw in 15mg of prop with my 40mg cyp so I can feel it sooner, will do the prop 3 times a week for first 2 weeks until cyp is in my system, and Cyp 40mg twice a week....Then probably start my actual TRT dose at 60mg Cyp 2 times a week. And Aromasin at 12.5mgs every third day.

cool man you should keep this thread updated with your trt return. esp for others who think about coming off

**abbot138** · 11-15-2011, 07:55 PM

Originally Posted by warchild

cool man you should keep this thread updated with your trt return. esp for others who think about coming off

I will, or I might start a new one to give proper background info and current TRT protocol.

**vinceproduction** · 11-16-2011, 09:53 AM

I'm glad you figured things out for you. We're all a big experiment for the majority of doctors. So info like yours does a lot of good for all of us in the same boat...

Confused as ever... Sat and sun were hell, Monday was great, tuesday great.. so far today feeling amazing... I had called my doc and told him of all my side effects so today I had a bloodtest this morning and have one for later this evening to see what my levels are doing... The only difference between the last couple weeks and Monday and Tuesday are that I got a bunch of free granite and had to move it all myself. So the extreme lifting may be something? I haven't been working out regularly since going on the clomid because of lack of motivation and energy... so anyways not sure what the heck to do...

**abbot138** · 11-16-2011, 10:48 AM

Originally Posted by vinceproduction

I'm glad you figured things out for you. We're all a big experiment for the majority of doctors. So info like yours does a lot of good for all of us in the same boat...

Confused as ever... Sat and sun were hell, Monday was great, tuesday great.. so far today feeling amazing... I had called my doc and told him of all my side effects so today I had a bloodtest this morning and have one for later this evening to see what my levels are doing... The only difference between the last couple weeks and Monday and Tuesday are that I got a bunch of free granite and had to move it all myself. So the extreme lifting may be something? I haven't been working out regularly since going on the clomid because of lack of motivation and energy... so anyways not sure what the heck to do...

Get back in the gym if you can man. You gotta try, you cant just give in to it....Aside from the volume and how heavy I go, I have not changed my lifting schedule at all.......Yeah I had two REALLY bad days in a row, and I just decided I cant do it anymore. Not worth it. I have a career to consider, my wife, not to mention my body that I have worked very hard to build up. But it sounds like you have a good doc, stick with him and stick with the program as long as you can, from what I have gathered its not a lost cause, I just couldnt do it.....Plus my doc was a dickhole and an idiot. I cant even imagine being able to call and talk to my doctor and get frequent blood work done to check progress, thats foreign territory to me.....Definately keep coming back to this thread i will keep it open and active.

**vinceproduction** · 11-21-2011, 11:45 PM

ok.. first thanks for the encouragement! It means a lot to me in this state of mind. I'm on vacation this week from work and I think I'm going to get back in the gym tomorrow.

Now, I got my test results back today and i go see the doc tomorrow... He had me get bloodwork before work 8am and after 6pm. 8am bloodwork had me at total of 102 and free - 21 the 6pm was Total 79 and free 17! So.. both day and night i'm super low... That's after 1 month of 50mg Clomid a day. Needless to say I can't wait to get into the doc tomorrow... I'll keep you updated.

**abbot138** · 11-28-2011, 03:11 PM

Originally Posted by vinceproduction

ok.. first thanks for the encouragement! It means a lot to me in this state of mind. I'm on vacation this week from work and I think I'm going to get back in the gym tomorrow.

Now, I got my test results back today and i go see the doc tomorrow... He had me get bloodwork before work 8am and after 6pm. 8am bloodwork had me at total of 102 and free - 21 the 6pm was Total 79 and free 17! So.. both day and night i'm super low... That's after 1 month of 50mg Clomid a day. Needless to say I can't wait to get into the doc tomorrow... I'll keep you updated.

Thanks for the update. Sorry I took so long to reply. How'd Dr visit go? Sounds like TRT to me. Hopefully your doctor agreed.

**vinceproduction** · 11-28-2011, 08:51 PM

No problem. Here's the update on my situation.... as you can imagine, I wasn't feeling the best at those levels... Luckily my doctor suggested I take a 200mg shot of Test as I was scheduled to be on the Today Show the next day! I couldn't have made it through that at the levels I was at, as you guys know. If you've seen that video on youtube of the kids destroying the house with flour.. you've seen my family! I can't post links here as I'm too new, but you can search youtube for home destroyed by flour children to blame. It was very stressful, we had tons of media calling and showing up at our door! But what an experience!
Anyways, the next course of action since the clomid didn't do anything is HCG . My doc wrote the script for 2000iu 3 x a week, he wrote for 1 vial of 10,000 units... Which of course would only be a week and a half?! So I took it to CVS and they said they couldn't order it and plus the way he prescribed it was weird.... so I took it to a small independent pharmacy that just opened up recently right down the street. Wow! Not only did the pharmacist/owner answer my questions, take care of the amount problem, and make sure all is covered by insurance.... she actually knew that clomid can be used off label for low test, she knew why people use hcg, and best of all they're a compounding pharmacy, so she can make up custom test if we go that route again.... she spent a good 15 min just talking with me about the whole situation... so I am extremely happy with that! We'll see what the 2,000iu of hcg can do. although at that dose, I'm a little worried about aromatization... so may need an AA. any thoughts?

**abbot138** · 11-29-2011, 12:11 PM

Originally Posted by vinceproduction

No problem. Here's the update on my situation.... as you can imagine, I wasn't feeling the best at those levels... Luckily my doctor suggested I take a 200mg shot of Test as I was scheduled to be on the Today Show the next day! I couldn't have made it through that at the levels I was at, as you guys know. If you've seen that video on youtube of the kids destroying the house with flour.. you've seen my family! I can't post links here as I'm too new, but you can search youtube for home destroyed by flour children to blame. It was very stressful, we had tons of media calling and showing up at our door! But what an experience!
Anyways, the next course of action since the clomid didn't do anything is HCG. My doc wrote the script for 2000iu 3 x a week, he wrote for 1 vial of 10,000 units... Which of course would only be a week and a half?! So I took it to CVS and they said they couldn't order it and plus the way he prescribed it was weird.... so I took it to a small independent pharmacy that just opened up recently right down the street. Wow! Not only did the pharmacist/owner answer my questions, take care of the amount problem, and make sure all is covered by insurance.... she actually knew that clomid can be used off label for low test, she knew why people use hcg, and best of all they're a compounding pharmacy, so she can make up custom test if we go that route again.... she spent a good 15 min just talking with me about the whole situation... so I am extremely happy with that! We'll see what the 2,000iu of hcg can do. although at that dose, I'm a little worried about aromatization... so may need an AA. any thoughts?

Yes, you definately need an AI. That is a very large dose of HCG . I would use 10mg of Aromasin every other day while using the HCG. I understand what he is trying to do, but he did it backwards, should have blasted the HCG, then tried the Clomid. And I have never heard of a Dr. giving just one shot of Test Cyp, that is very odd and irresponsible. 1 shot wont do a thing. Very odd. I dont have much faith in HCG monotherapy. IMO your doc is just delaying the inevtiable, and treating you like a guinea pig.....Just watched your video, lol, thats wild man. Cant believe thats you. Everyone under the Youtube video was saying it was fake. But why the hell would anyone stage that? lol.....Keep me posted man. I guess the Dr just wants to exhaust all his resources before TRT, but IMO the fact that the Clomid did nothing should be proof enough. At least you dont have to deal with Clomid anymore tho.

**abbot138** · 11-29-2011, 12:13 PM

Also, for the HCG if you have a 10,000iu bottle, do 1500ius once every 3 days until its gone and run the AI the whole time, every other day.

**vinceproduction** · 11-29-2011, 05:48 PM

Just got 3 10,000 iu bottles of Novarel for $30! I'm all set... they want me to come in to the office tomorrow to show my wife how to do the injections (no charge)... should be fun... anyways, as far as the 1 test shot goes, I had actually been on test for about a year, 300mg eow, and loved it, but wanted kids and realized I was completely shut down. So this endo wanted to start from scratch and see what we're dealing with at my expense of course... but the 1 shot actually did get my nerves calmed down, and gave me the energy the next day to do the NYC thing.. lol... so.. irrisponsible, maybe, but it sure did help me get through an experience I don't think I could handle at the levels I was at... I'm debating on just doing 500iu x 3, but not sure... Do you think the blasting is worth it? yeah lots of people claiming the video was fake and that my wife was way too calm, lol, but I can tell you that mess was real and a pain in the but to clean lol... she had a few words before picking up the camera, I mean who would swear in a youtube video for the world to see? lol.. they'd be bashing her for child abuse then. Did you see the Today Show interview? That was fun, they treated us extremely well and put us up in a really nice hotel. Great experience...

**innerg** · 11-29-2011, 11:12 PM

Originally Posted by vinceproduction

Just got 3 10,000 iu bottles of Novarel for $30! I'm all set... they want me to come in to the office tomorrow to show my wife how to do the injections (no charge)... should be fun... anyways, as far as the 1 test shot goes, I had actually been on test for about a year, 300mg eow, and loved it, but wanted kids and realized I was completely shut down. So this endo wanted to start from scratch and see what we're dealing with at my expense of course... but the 1 shot actually did get my nerves calmed down, and gave me the energy the next day to do the NYC thing.. lol... so.. irrisponsible, maybe, but it sure did help me get through an experience I don't think I could handle at the levels I was at... I'm debating on just doing 500iu x 3, but not sure... Do you think the blasting is worth it? yeah lots of people claiming the video was fake and that my wife was way too calm, lol, but I can tell you that mess was real and a pain in the but to clean lol... she had a few words before picking up the camera, I mean who would swear in a youtube video for the world to see? lol.. they'd be bashing her for child abuse then. Did you see the Today Show interview? That was fun, they treated us extremely well and put us up in a really nice hotel. Great experience...

Lmao. I just watched it on youtube. Let me just say I freaking LOVE having kids. I got 2 (after cycles) and we are having are 3rd in may.

This thread is very interesting to me. I'm just starting TRT 200mg a week of test c. My free test is 11.9 and the doc says im WAY low.

I do want to blast would you all say not to? I'm 31. How should I if I do.?

**warchild** · 12-06-2011, 06:24 PM

how bout an update abbot

**Flier** · 12-08-2011, 03:48 AM

I really wanted to see if you could start up your Pituitary again, but understand.
I´m myself about 8 months into the process, and right now FSH/LH 3-4, and Test right at the border.
So 8 months of no/low libido, loss of muscle, soft looking, tired, low/no initiative.
But....to me it´s worth it

Starting another round of Tore in Jan. 60mg ED for 3 months.
Not gonna try this forever, but I will give it another year.......patience....

**warchild** · 12-08-2011, 11:10 AM

Originally Posted by Flier

I really wanted to see if you could start up your Pituitary again, but understand.
I´m myself about 8 months into the process, and right now FSH/LH 3-4, and Test right at the border.
So 8 months of no/low libido, loss of muscle, soft looking, tired, low/no initiative.
But....to me it´s worth it

Starting another round of Tore in Jan. 60mg ED for 3 months.
Not gonna try this forever, but I will give it another year.......patience....

why suffer??

**Flier** · 12-08-2011, 11:35 AM

Originally Posted by warchild

why suffer??

Good question. Nebido is only a phonecall away.
But I really want to see if I can reach normal level producing myself.
All I need is that damn Pituitary to produce a little more FSH/LH. I know she can do it!!

**warchild** · 12-08-2011, 11:58 AM

well lets see what happens. im curious. i came off trt like you and i never rebounded so im never gonna come off now

**vinceproduction** · 12-08-2011, 06:54 PM

Sorry guys I haven't updated my info lately either... My bloodwork showed the clomid didn't do squat for me... my LH was 1.5 (range 1.7 - 8.6) and FSH was (Range 3.7-9.5) Total was total in the morning was 102 free 25 total at night was 79! and free 17! So he put me on 2000IU 3 x a week of HCG , then bloodwork at 3 weeks to adjust the dose.... We'll see what happens... I feel a bit better, not great, but it's still early, Only had 2 shots so far... Main reason for me wanting to restart my natural test is for a better chance at having more kids...

**Flier** · 12-09-2011, 05:13 AM

Originally Posted by vinceproduction

Sorry guys I haven't updated my info lately either... My bloodwork showed the clomid didn't do squat for me... my LH was 1.5 (range 1.7 - 8.6) and FSH was (Range 3.7-9.5) Total was total in the morning was 102 free 25 total at night was 79! and free 17! So he put me on 2000IU 3 x a week of HCG, then bloodwork at 3 weeks to adjust the dose.... We'll see what happens... I feel a bit better, not great, but it's still early, Only had 2 shots so far... Main reason for me wanting to restart my natural test is for a better chance at having more kids...

Strange.
The HCG wil shut down your Pituitary even further.
Your next bloodwork in 3 weeks will show LH close to 0 if not 0.
What you should have done is another aggressive PCT, like Toremifene/Tamox, to further stimulate your Pituitary, which btw is responsive (1.5)

Now that you are "priming" your leydigs with HCG (sounds like your balls are working since you "feel" better), hit your Pituitary with an aggressive SERM at the end of your 3 week HCG treatment.

**vinceproduction** · 12-09-2011, 09:37 AM

I'm starting to get frustrated with this doc... Everytime I suggest something, he gets defensive.. I think after I get paid from Google adsense (taking forever!), I may just go to Dr. Crisler.. He's not that far from me and the ignorance in regular doctors is starting to really get to me...

**Flier** · 12-10-2011, 04:00 AM

Last week´s BW came in.
FSH/LH : 4/4
Test 12 (8-35)
Taking months, but steadily climbing.
All the rest (Estro, SHBG, T´s, Plasma, prolactin, Liver...etc) is perfect.
Homeostasis is a powerful force.
Unless you/we have experienced testicular trauma, or have a Pituitary tumor, there is no good reason why homeostasis wouldn´t reset all of us. Just requires a lot of patience.
Still considering another round of Toremifene to give the Pituitary another push.

**abbot138** · 12-13-2011, 11:08 AM

Originally Posted by vinceproduction

I'm starting to get frustrated with this doc... Everytime I suggest something, he gets defensive.. I think after I get paid from Google adsense (taking forever!), I may just go to Dr. Crisler.. He's not that far from me and the ignorance in regular doctors is starting to really get to me...

Ummmm yeah that would be a good idea, lol. Didnt know that was an option. Dont know how else to put it but your Dr is an idiot, plain and simple, has no business treating low Test.

**abbot138** · 12-13-2011, 11:10 AM

Originally Posted by Flier

Last week´s BW came in.
FSH/LH : 4/4
Test 12 (8-35)
Taking months, but steadily climbing.
All the rest (Estro, SHBG, T´s, Plasma, prolactin, Liver...etc) is perfect.
Homeostasis is a powerful force.
Unless you/we have experienced testicular trauma, or have a Pituitary tumor, there is no good reason why homeostasis wouldn´t reset all of us. Just requires a lot of patience.
Still considering another round of Toremifene to give the Pituitary another push.

You're doing everything right man and I admire your dedication. I probably could have gotten to the point that you are at too, but it probably would have taken just as long and I just didnt want to deal with it anymore. Stay strong, see it through for a full 12 months and see where your at. From what I have read and seen, it probably takes that long to get things functioning normally after prolonged Test use. But if it doesnt happen dont be ashamed or afraid to jump back on.

**abbot138** · 12-13-2011, 11:12 AM

Sorry for not keeping up with this thread guys.....My own update, 4 weeks back in to TRT, feel great, almost back to normal. Body starting to get back to what it was. Just did bloodwork yesterday, I will let you all know how it goes. Tes Cyp at 130mg (65mg 2x week), 250ius HCG 2x week, Aromasin 20mg every 3 days, and depending on DHEA levels in my bloodwork I will be adding that as well.

**vinceproduction** · 12-31-2011, 11:19 AM

HCG experiment lab results: After 3 weeks of HCG only 2000IU monday, wednesday, and friday. Total Testosterone 358 (79 pre HCG), FSH 2.1, LH 1.9 (1.5 pre HCG), Estradiol 34.8 So the numbers are increasing.. I'm a bit concerned with the Estradiol at 34, but if I remember correctly my last E2 was 32.. so not too much of an increase.. So.. what do you guys think?

**meathead320** · 01-01-2012, 09:57 AM

As far as going off from a long cycle cruising and blasting, I know IFBB Gunter Schlierkamp had a kid recently, and he is way down in size from his Mr.Olympia competitor size. My guess is he ran a PCT for fertility reasons, and if he could get his natty T production up after being a Pro BBr for over a decade I would think that there actually may be more hope than people think for those who ran long cycles.

I have often wondered about some guys who jumped on TRT too soon actually being able to come off and get a normal (as in middle of range) production.

Some who were given a script to pin right away when they actually had high E2, and could have been treated with anastrozole alone.

There are others who had low test as a result of obesity too. Where if they lost the excess fat then did a PCT their natty T might be much better.

I’m in a situation where the damage was primary, and the most my body can produce is about 1/3rd of ideal, but I still do go off TRT for short amounts of time, often 30 days on clomid, no different than a break from AAS cycle. Part of the reason is that HCG does not do much for me, and I like to keep some small level of fertility, sort of like keeping the pilot light on. My cholesterol also responds very well to SERMs.

One thing that was suggested to me was running IGF-1, as a means to possibly help heal damaged leydig cell tissue, then running a pct. At first glance it sounded rediculous, but since I run a PCT anyway every so often, just get back to low test (better than 0) that this time it might be normal, or closer to normal, well would at least be worth a try. So I ran the IGF-1 a few months ago.

So, back on the clomid at the moment. If it does not work, no big deal, but if it does that would truly be great.

I have been on clomid now for about 14 days, and I am both getting acne break outs and my sex drive is up somewhat, as well as shooting loads like Peter North, and my general sense of well being is up too. I kind of feel good. Sleeping well too. So my educated guess is that I could actually go "off" of TRT, and have a decent level of testosterone production. Not that good feeling of having high test, but enough for a healthy sex life and to stay in good shape.

**MPhoenix** · 01-24-2012, 08:04 PM

Ugh... I'm relatively new to TRT so when my doctor makes comments (that I have read are wrong as per this site) I just keep it zipped (unfortunately). I am trying to have kids. I was referred to an urologist and met with him today. He told me you absolutely can't have children when on TRT. He then told me to go off TRT (300/cyp every two weeks) cold turkey for three months then try another fertility test. No PCT. Luckily he is going to forward me to an endo (whenever that happens) but is his current battle plan advisable? It seems like everyone on here is at least on a pct when they are doing the same thing.

**vinceproduction** · 01-24-2012, 08:55 PM

Originally Posted by MPhoenix

Ugh... I'm relatively new to TRT so when my doctor makes comments (that I have read are wrong as per this site) I just keep it zipped (unfortunately). I am trying to have kids. I was referred to an urologist and met with him today. He told me you absolutely can't have children when on TRT. He then told me to go off TRT (300/cyp every two weeks) cold turkey for three months then try another fertility test. No PCT. Luckily he is going to forward me to an endo (whenever that happens) but is his current battle plan advisable? It seems like everyone on here is at least on a pct when they are doing the same thing.

Same situation as I was in. I was on 300mg eow as well. My doc at the time didn't know much about trt and he read a study of older men getting heart probs on trt . He freaked out and pulled me off with no pct at all either. I crashed about 2 weeks after my last shot. My total test was 79! I went back in begging for clomid or hcg so he sent me to an endo. First thing he did was clomid 50mg per day. This didn't do anything for my test or lh or fsh after a month. Then he put me on 2000 iu of hcg 3 times a week. After 3weeks my total was upto 358. I just had a blood test yesterday so I'll post my results after 6 weeks. So...I really suggest a pct or you'll be miserable like I was.

**MPhoenix** · 01-25-2012, 04:44 AM

Excellent, thanks! It helps to hear from people who have gone through the same thing. It's quite clear there is more to it than just stopping and knowing what other people have done helps. No use re-inventing the wheel and putting myself through the trial and error.