Help me decipher these numbers

[Ace111]

Just spent an hour writing a post and couldn't post it because I used the word 'p-o-r-n'. FML
So I'm gonna get straight to the point

Had blood work done because I was exhibiting signs of low T. mood swings, depression, no motivation for anything, anxiety, low confidence, constant fatigue, ED, no libido.

I'm 25, 5'8 190-198 lbs, 18-20% bf. The only physical activity I do is lift weights. I did play soccer up until last year.

Here's what the GP showed me

Testosterone - 9.7L nmol/L (range 12.0-32.0) He said this was free testosterone - edit - this is actually total
SHBG - 12 nmol/L (10-73)
Free Androgen Index - 81 (35-85)
TSH - 3.5 mU/L (0.40-3.50)

I'm not familiar with the nmol/L measurements but I converted the 9.7 into about 280 ng/dl. Which I gather is low even for a 90 year old.

In the chart from Vermeulen, A. (1996). Declining Androgens with Age: An Overview total test is at 617 ng/dl and free test is 12.3 ng/dl, which confuses me, or maybe I'm reading it wrong.

I tried reading the sticky here too but once again got confused as I'm unfamiliar with all the different measurements, and my concentration sucks.

So if anyone can tell me what my numbers mean before I visit my GP again and ask him to do more tests. I want to be a bit more informed in case he decides to be stubborn and tells me I'm 'within range'.

Cheers

[bass]

clearly your free T is not in range and your TSH is high normal. you will need more blood work to see whats going on. i'll let others chime in with more advice, but in mean time read this sticky so you know how to equip your self with knowledge to take to your doctor,

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...-TRT-Physician

[steroid.com 1]

bass is correct:

Very Low Free Test
For a 25 year old this is very alarming and suggests something pathological...kid you not. There are many diseases and tumors that can cause this to happen so don't just be put on a Testosterone Repla***ent Protocol and think that's the fix...it's not.

Elevated TSH
This is a double whammy; a very high TSH level indicates your Thyroid is working extremely hard and may be symptomatic to the low Testosterone production.

Now you know why you feel so bad; both the low Testosterone and high TSH assay produce much of the same bad side effects.

Somthing is wrong with you and you need it correctly diagnosed.

Did they run LH and FSH panels? Estadiol "sensitive" panel?

Get help ASAP.

[SEOINAGE]

Gdevine, not trying to hijack but related to the TSH issue since his is similar to mine, I dunno if i understand you properly, the low T could be causing the the TSH issue? Reason I ask is the doctor started me on synthroid and after a month I think I feel worse, and honestly just don't want to take it, although have been having more sex last few weeks, dunno if it is even related as wife and i are just trying harder. But could my tsh issue go away with trt treatment?

[steroid.com 1]

Yes, it can Seoinage!

High TSH means the Thyroid is not producing enough T4/Thyroxine in the blood stream...so the Pituitary keeps pouring out more TSH in the hopes of increasing T4 = Hypothyroidism.

There are many causes of this condition: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothyroidism

Here's a study many of you guys can read to see the correlation between Hypothyroidism and low Testosterone levels . Really interesting and revealing!

Kumar A, Chaturvedi PK, Mohanty BP. Hypoandrogenaemia is associated with subclinical hypothyroidism in men. Int J Androl. 2006 Jul 24

From the article abstract:
“Hypothyroidism has been shown to be associated with a reduction in serum testosterone level in males". This reduction in testosterone is reversible by thyroxine repla***ent therapy. However, to the best of our knowledge, it is not yet known, whether a similar reduction in serum testosterone level is observed in subclinically hypothyroid males [thyroid-stimulating hormone (TSH) < 10 mIU/L] in whom the benefits of thyroxine repla***ent therapy are still controversial.

Our goal was to investigate the putative connections between subclinical hypothyroidism and the circulating levels of gonadotrophins and gonadal steroids in males (ranging from 20 to 54 years).

The serum samples from patients showing normal euthyroid and subclinical hypothyroid profiles (TSH < 10 mIU/L) were further analysed for the levels of luteinizing hormone, follicle-stimulating hormone, prolactin, testosterone, sex hormone-binding globulin, progesterone and oestradiol.

Subclinical hypothyroidism was associated with a decrease in the levels of serum testosterone and its precursor progesterone. The data suggest that serum testosterone declines because of the non-availability of its precursor progesterone.

The level of oestradiol was similar in both the groups, suggesting a greater conversion rate of testosterone to oestradiol in subclinically hypothyroid males, in order to maintain the oestradiol levels.

Prolactin levels were slightly but significantly increased in subclinical hypothyroidism. To the best of our information this is a novel report, which shows a direct association between subclinical hypothyroidism and hypoandrogenaemia. Testosterone deficiency and its symptoms should be kept in view while managing subclinical hypothyroidism in male patients. Further studies are needed in order to reveal the physiological and molecular mechanisms leading to hypoandrogenaemia in subclinical hypothyroidism (TSH < 10 mIU/L).

[Vettester]

Good advice above ^^. Ace, definitely look at getting the other labs, especially the LH/FSH as indicated by GD. Sounds like something might be going on in the pituitary region, so don't rule out getting an MRI before things go too far.

On the Testosterone lab ... Your doctor said it was a "free test" lab, but you did some sort of conversion (280 ng/dl), which sounds more like a total serum value. Do you have a copy of your lab results, or is this information you copied at his office? Just looking to clarify so that we are indeed talking on the same page.

Your question: In the chart from Vermeulen, A. (1996). Declining Androgens with Age: An Overview total test is at 617 ng/dl and free test is 12.3 ng/dl, which confuses me, or maybe I'm reading it wrong. These are two different lab tests. Total serum is just that, it measures the total amount of testosterone in the blood. However, the downside about testosterone is that there's only a small amount of it that is actually available, or unbound in the body to use (Between 1.5 to - 3% on average). You can read up more about this by researching how testosterone interacts with SHBG and Albumin; two (2) main proteins that that work in conjuction to regulate the amount of free testosterone. Your SHBG is actually pretty low, which would usually indicate more free and bio-available testosterone. However if your lab result is indeed the free test number, then your total serum is clearly in the tank just the same. The subject in your question would = 2% (1.9935) on their free testosterone score.

[kelkel]

Exceptional posts GD, Vetteman!

[Ace111]

I won't multi quote because the post might get too big

bass - thanks I'll read through that sticky. It was 1am in my timezone when I made my original post so all the info was overwhelming

gdevine - looking through the paper work it doesn't seem he did those three tests - lh,fsh, estradiol. So my thyroid activity is high? I don't understand why the GP didn't mention anything at all about it. I'm thinking these 'doctors' don't really know much about anything.

vetteman08 - I used an online conversion calculator to convert from nmol/L to ng/dl because I was a little more familiar with the latter measurements, but it seems I was confusing the total and free test values. I do have the results here in front of me but it doesn't seem to indicate if it's free or total test. I'm just going by what the GP told me which was that it's free test. I was going to post links to scans of all the paper work but I can't post links as a new member.

The GP seemed to indicate that because of the SHBG and FAI numbers that everything was fine. He didn't mention anything about testosterone being below the range or about the TSH levels.

He mentioned my total protein being high (77g/L - range 63-80) I don't know if that's relevant
I also noticed Albumin (52 H g/L - range 37-50). Again I don't know if that's relevant but I've seen in it while researching this subject. And vetteman mentioned it too, just noticed.

So I should ask him to redo the tests again including total and free test, LH, FSH and estradiol?

[Vettester]

Ace, I copied this from Kelkel's sticky, which is pretty complete with the needed hormonal panels:

• Total Testosterone
• Bioavailable Testosterone (AKA “Free and Loosely Bound”)
• Free Testosterone (if Bioavailable T is unavailable)
• SHBG
• DHT (perhaps) *Gel user especially pay attention to this.
• Estradiol (specify “sensitive” assay for males)
• LH
• FSH
• Prolactin
• Cortisol
• Thyroid Panel
• CBC
• Comprehensive Metabolic Panel
• Lipid Profile
• PSA (age dependent)
• IGF -1, IGFBP-3 (if HGH therapy is being considered)

I think you are correct, it looks like the doctor ran a Free Test Lab, and it ended up confusing you with the Total Serum count. Usually, most of these GP's run the Total Serum, and then forget about the free and bio-available. Free testosterone tells the true story, BUT, being this is your first crack at it, I would suggest running the gamut. Since they're tapping your vein, what's the harm of seeing the full picture?

Just curious, have you used any anabolics in the past? You wouldn't be the first guy here if you have, but it would help explain a few things, even the low SHBG and elevated Albumin levels. Additionally, make sure you drink lots of water!

[Ace111]

vetteman - Yes I realized after asking which tests I needed to get that it was already in the sticky, but which ones would be most important in case the doc won't do all of them? Or should I just look for another one that's willing to?

This is tricky without being able to post links but if you google search "normal testosterone levels in men" and click on the second link, there should be a few charts. If you look at the first chart the measurements are in nmol/L. If you look at the first age group 25-34, total test is 21.38 and free test is 0.428. The measurements on my results are in nmol/L, which leads me to believe that my result of 9.7 is actually for total serum because if it was free test then the number should start with 0.***. 9.7 would make more sense if it was measured in ng/dl as you can see by the next chart. Correct me if I'm wrong here.

To answer your question, no I've never used anabolics. The GP asked me this on both occasions when I asked for the blood work to be done and when I went in to get the results.

[steroid.com 1]

At your age and what your labs state you need to find a Physician who knows how to interpret the correctly.

TSH is in the labs "normal" reference range but any Endo or Doc "in the know" will tell you anything above a 2 presents slightly elevated levels and should be watched. Anything above a 3 is a problem. You need to know the long term pathological consequences of having elevated TSH levels...it's not good!

Your way to young to be having these problems.

You need someone who can help you correctly IMO.

[Vettester]

Exceptional posts GD, Vetteman!

Thanks, Kelk!! GD sets the bar pretty high!

[Ace111]

At your age and what your labs state you need to find a Physician who knows how to interpret the correctly.

TSH is in the labs "normal" reference range but any Endo or Doc "in the know" will tell you anything above a 2 presents slightly elevated levels and should be watched. Anything above a 3 is a problem. You need to know the long term pathological consequences of having elevated TSH levels...it's not good!

Your way to young to be having these problems.

You need someone who can help you correctly IMO.

Completely agree with you and thanks for the info regarding TSH levels. I'm going to see my GP tomorrow or first thing Monday.

I figured out FAI = Total testosterone divided by SHBG x 100
9.7 / 12 x 100 = 80.83 ( round up to 81)
It's a ratio used to estimate free testosterone. So my ratio on paper is good but only because my SHBG is very low. This is why I suspect the GP wasn't concerned and he obviously doesn't know what range healthy T levels are supposed to be in. In reality my total testosterone is abnormally low 9.7 nmol/L (280 ng/dl) along with my SHBG. Basically they didn't check my free testosterone, they estimated it with a maths equation.

I've printed out the relevant information to show him that I'm not healthy despite what their 'results' say, so hopefully I'll get listened to.

Thanks GD and Vetteman for your help. I'll be back once my results come in.

Edit - reading through the symptoms of hypothyroidism and hyperthyroidism, I seem to have more of the latter. What could that mean?

[SEOINAGE]

so its possible to fix tsh with trt, and its possible to fix low t with thryoid medication, doesn't necessarily mean it will of course. I find it interesting that they believe subclinical hypothyroidism males have higher conversion to oestradial but that total levels where same. Which one would think i have had estro issues hence my gyno, but yet haven't convinced the doctor of using ai or hcg for that matter. I want to stop my thyroid meds that seem to make me sick and start on trt if he will prescribe hcg and an ai. Would have jumped on it sooner but trying to get wife pregnant.

Ace I dunno why you would have more symptoms of hyperthyroidism, that is interesting to hear. But your depression and lack of motivation sounds like hypothyroid and low t. Surprisingly I can stay pretty stable if I train regularly, but when i don't after a week or two the mood swings start to creep up, and the depression can kick in as well. Its like i have to lift weights to keep stable, so i am hoping treatment will take care of that as well as make me stop feeling like an old frail man.

[Charly Rivers]

Great Info thanks to all the members

[Ace111]

SEOINAGE- I'm the same in regards to keeping depression away and mood swings when I lift weights. This week I've just been feeling weak and decided to take the week off from lifting and it's hitting me hard. Although a few months ago I had to take some time off but I was fine, I believe mainly because I was meditating everyday and stopped jerking off. I haven't been consistent with meditation lately so I think that's why I'm feeling down this week.

Anyway went to the GP today (not my regular GP, he wasn't in) and when I showed him the blood work I wanted he scoffed at it at first but finally gave in to doing Total serum, SHBG, TSH, LH, FSH and TSH although he insists the TSH is fine. He wouldn't do free T for some reason which annoyed me. He barely looked at the chart I showed him for normal T levels for my age group. He says if the levels are low after the third blood draw, then he'll be able to order the other blood work.

Depending on the results and what my regular GP says when I see him next week, I'm just going to get a referral to an endocrinologist.

[Bill_boy2005]

vetteman - Yes I realized after asking which tests I needed to get that it was already in the sticky, but which ones would be most important in case the doc won't do all of them? Or should I just look for another one that's willing to?

This is tricky without being able to post links but if you google search "normal testosterone levels in men" and click on the second link, there should be a few charts. If you look at the first chart the measurements are in nmol/L. If you look at the first age group 25-34, total test is 21.38 and free test is 0.428. The measurements on my results are in nmol/L, which leads me to believe that my result of 9.7 is actually for total serum because if it was free test then the number should start with 0.***. 9.7 would make more sense if it was measured in ng/dl as you can see by the next chart. Correct me if I'm wrong here.

To answer your question, no I've never used anabolics. The GP asked me this on both occasions when I asked for the blood work to be done and when I went in to get the results.

Last ditch effort there are sites online that will allow you to order them yourself. Privatemdlabs dot com is one. There are others to.

[SEOINAGE]

Keep us posted Ace, its funny i'm same height and roughly same weight and bf. Not that what works for you will work for me, but it would definitely be good for reference. I keep reading things about thyroid repla***ent that scare the crap out of me, its not an easy process to just talk to my doctor but have a million questions. A part of me wants to keep going, because if it can fix my symptoms and prevent me from needing trt that would be amazing, but at the same time my thyroid isn't all that bad imo. Thyroid meds are much easier to take than TRT, but which really is going to have a bigger impact on my quality of life and long term health, that is what I want to find out.

[Ace111]

Ok got some new numbers

Total Testosterone - 9.5 nmol/L - lower than last time even though I went earlier in the day
FSH - 1.8 U/L (range 1-10)
LH - 3.9 U/L (range 2-12)

TSH - 3.9 mU/L
Free T4 - 14.7 pmol/L (range 10-23)
Once again he said its normal even though in the comments on my result printout it states 'possibly mild hypothyroidism, consider also performing thyroid antibodies'

He didn't order the SHBG and FAI tests so I guess go by the previous results for that.

Anyway the guy tried to make me feel like an idiot considering my previous results were more than good in his opinion. I got a referral to an endo but the GP thinks I'm crazy.

[SEOINAGE]

Like i said before very curious about where this goes, and what treatment will do to your test and thyroid. your thyroid is around mine and I dunno if it is worth treating or not. My thyroid antibodies were a little high, but not so much that its a huge alarm. Wondering if treating test issue will fix some of your other problems and will be watching.

[Ace111]

Have been doing some reading and I'm lead to believe because of the low LH/FSH levels, this could be a pituitary gland problem. Anyone know more, I'm trying to understand all the info I'm reading but it gets confusing.

I've got an appointment with an endo in 2 weeks so I'm trying to soak up knowledge just in case this guy doesn't know what he's doing.

Using an online calculator I found out my free test is at 7.41 ng/dL or 0.258 nmol/L
Google "Free & Bioavailable Testosterone calculator" - first link

I've got my Full blood count panel here from the first set of tests.

Haemogloblin.........160 g/L................130-180
RCC.....................5.5 10*12/L..........4.3-6.0
Haematocrit..........0.47....................0.37-0.53
MCV....................85 fL.......................80-100
MCH....................29 pg......................27-33
MCHC..................341 g/L....................310-360
RDW....................12......................... .10-16
WCC....................7.3 10*9/L...............4.0-11.0
Neutrophils............4.6 10*9/L...............2.0-7.5
Lymphocytes.........2.0 10*9/L...............1.0-4.0
Monocytes............0.6 10*9/L................ <1.1
Eosinophils............0.1 10*9/L................ <0.6
Basophils..............<0.1 10*9/L.............. <0.3
Platelets...............214 10*9/L...............150-450
ESR......................2 mm/h....................1-15

The '10*9/L' are units of measurement, not to be confused with the bold numbers indicating the actual results.

[pugster]

ace11 , are u in the UK /Europe ? , i ask because of the n/mol readings..

[steroid.com 1]

Here's an interesting article on understanding TSH levels and reference ranges.

BTW, I tend to go with Life Extension on optimal TSH range:

OPTIMAL RANGE OF THYROID STIMULATING HORMONE (TSH)

Current Laboratory Reference Range = 0.35-5.50 mU/L

Optimal Range = 0.35-2.1 mU/


You decide:

http://thyroid.about.com/od/getteste...shtestwars.htm

[Ace111]

ace11 , are u in the UK /Europe ? , i ask because of the n/mol readings..

I'm in Australia. I guess we use the same readings as Europe. It can get confusing having to do conversions into ng/dl, which I understand a little better, or vice versa so the doctors here understand.

Here's an interesting article on understanding TSH levels and reference ranges.

BTW, I tend to go with Life Extension on optimal TSH range:

OPTIMAL RANGE OF THYROID STIMULATING HORMONE (TSH)

Current Laboratory Reference Range = 0.35-5.50 mU/L

Optimal Range = 0.35-2.1 mU/


You decide:
LINK

Thanks for that link. The reference range here is 0.4-3.5 mu/L and my last result was 3.9. So I'm out of range but was still told 'nothing to worry about'. I'll have to print this for my endo appointment but I have a feeling that even if I show him this he'll just dismiss is at misinformation I found on the internet and that he's right because he has a degree.
That's basically what my GP said to me when I presented him with a chart for normal T levels so he gave me a referral to see a psychologist.

[steroid.com 1]

I'm in Australia. I guess we use the same readings as Europe. It can get confusing having to do conversions into ng/dl, which I understand a little better, or vice versa so the doctors here understand.

Thanks for that link. The reference range here is 0.4-3.5 mu/L and my last result was 3.9. So I'm out of range but was still told 'nothing to worry about'. I'll have to print this for my endo appointment but I have a feeling that even if I show him this he'll just dismiss is at misinformation I found on the internet and that he's right because he has a degree.
That's basically what my GP said to me when I presented him with a chart for normal T levels so he gave me a referral to see a psychologist.

Depressing.

[pugster]

same thing happened to me, referred to psychiatrist....12 yrs ago , for 12yrs i have taken all manner of antidepressant, mood stabilisers and all manner of shite which has failed to help me even tho i have said to my doc all thru out they were just making me dopey ..not better , i had to fight to get HRT treatment which i started 3 months ago (i now feel better than i have in a long time) , you need to find out your countrys guidelines for hypo gonadism or sexual disfunction and then find out who specialises in these things in your country ...then get a referal.
in all countries around the world there are few doctors that understand and treat correctly (if at all) testosterone deficiency , the trouble is alot of GP's /endos /uro's are so assured of there own self importance that they wont admit they know bugger all about it so fob ppl off.

[Ace111]

same thing happened to me, referred to psychiatrist....12 yrs ago , for 12yrs i have taken all manner of antidepressant, mood stabilisers and all manner of shite which has failed to help me even tho i have said to my doc all thru out they were just making me dopey ..not better , i had to fight to get HRT treatment which i started 3 months ago (i now feel better than i have in a long time) , you need to find out your countrys guidelines for hypo gonadism or sexual disfunction and then find out who specialises in these things in your country ...then get a referal.
in all countries around the world there are few doctors that understand and treat correctly (if at all) testosterone deficiency , the trouble is alot of GP's /endos /uro's are so assured of there own self importance that they wont admit they know bugger all about it so fob ppl off.

Sorry to hear about your experience, good to hear that the treatment is working for you. But I'm stubborn and won't be put on pills or forced to talk to a quack when the reasons for my problems are clearly in front of their eyes in these results, it's just a matter of them knowing how to interpret them and for them to put their ego aside and admit that they might not know everything.

[Ace111]

I haven't been lifting weights again this week because of yet another back injury.

But something I've noticed, which I've also previously noticed when I couldn't train because of injury, is that my libido gets stronger when I don't lift. I lift 3-4 times a week and I usually don't have the urge for a release for about a week, second week I can hold off easily and it only gets irritating going into the 3rd week. Where as this past week I've been getting urges every couple of days.

Has anyone experienced this? I guess it's yet another symptom of low T where my body uses it's limited energy for muscle recovery instead of sex drive. So this could go a long way in convincing these medical 'professionals' that there is something wrong with me despite their interpretations of results

[SEOINAGE]

I haven't been lifting weights again this week because of yet another back injury.

But something I've noticed, which I've also previously noticed when I couldn't train because of injury, is that my libido gets stronger when I don't lift. I lift 3-4 times a week and I usually don't have the urge for a release for about a week, second week I can hold off easily and it only gets irritating going into the 3rd week. Where as this past week I've been getting urges every couple of days.

Has anyone experienced this? I guess it's yet another symptom of low T where my body uses it's limited energy for muscle recovery instead of sex drive. So this could go a long way in convincing these medical 'professionals' that there is something wrong with me despite their interpretations of results

wow sounds exactly like me. And it used to be if I had a hard work out I would get extremely horny after, but now it makes me less interested in sex. One of the things I have done to make me feel better the last couple weeks is change my training protocol a bit. Focussing more on strength, split it up in to upper and lower days relatively low volume. Stopped doing the high intensity cardio. Started eating more is the big kicker. I feel better, but the sex drive isn't up to where it should be. Also work has been slow which helps, no going to work at 3 am lately. Tempted to get test tested again but guessing it will likely be same as it was last time judging by how i feel.

[Ace111]

wow sounds exactly like me. And it used to be if I had a hard work out I would get extremely horny after, but now it makes me less interested in sex. One of the things I have done to make me feel better the last couple weeks is change my training protocol a bit. Focussing more on strength, split it up in to upper and lower days relatively low volume. Stopped doing the high intensity cardio. Started eating more is the big kicker. I feel better, but the sex drive isn't up to where it should be. Also work has been slow which helps, no going to work at 3 am lately. Tempted to get test tested again but guessing it will likely be same as it was last time judging by how i feel.

Interesting. So my theory might be plausible.

I changed my routine about 6 months ago. I used to squat 3x a week, low volume, compounds only but couldn't keep it up due to not recovering and back pain. It also drained me mentally trying to psyche myself up to lift my 5rm each session for all lifts. I switched to doing 1 main compound low rep lift per session for strength with higher rep assistance exercises, which is pretty easy, but I still struggle some days and sometimes have no energy to even try. I want to get back into playing soccer this year too but there's no way I can keep both hobbies up, not in this current state.

Are you (or anyone else) completely wiped after lifting? As in too tired to do anything else? I almost usually am. I always thought it was normal and it just meant that I put in the effort but I read recently that after taking in some simple carbs afterward, you should be fine, which has never been the case for me.

[SEOINAGE]

Not especially, sometimes I will feel completely drained and famished and feel like I'm going to die, but usually only if I have kept my calories too low. but my post work out shake usually fixes this. its probably a crap ton more calories than most people's. Its a tablespoon of cocoa, 2 tablespoons of dextrose, roughyl 50g whey, 12-16 ounces whole milk, and a couple tablespoons heavy cream, that thing fixes all.

[Ace111]

Just had my appointment with the endo.
It doesn't look like he'll be much help with regards to TRT.
He's ordered blood tests for my pituitary, a thyroid scan and a possible pituitary MRI after I see him again in a months time.

I say he won't be much with TRT because he said my T was "just below normal range". He got grumpy when I told him that range is too wide and the lowest ranges are for 90 year olds. Basically dismissed the charts I have with age range and T levels as hyped up misinformation, as I expected.
I think he'll be happy to just see my levels get just into range regardless if I still feel like crap or not.

Any Aussies know any informed medical professionals?

edit - He also mentioned any form of TRT will render me infertile? I don't plan on having kids anyway but is this true?
I know natural hormone production will shut down but can it ever be restarted?

[SEOINAGE]

My doc claims if you have sperm production now it will come back when you get off the test with some time. However I hear lots of information about the possibility of it permanently shutting you down. This is why I want to be on HCG to play it a bit safer. Can't convince my doc though.

[FONZY007]

My doc claims if you have sperm production now it will come back when you get off the test with some time. However I hear lots of information about the possibility of it permanently shutting you down. This is why I want to be on HCG to play it a bit safer. Can't convince my doc though.

I was on trt and got off and now I have a beautiful babygirl. After wife was about 4 months pregnant I jumped back on...

[SEOINAGE]

I was on trt and got off and now I have a beautiful babygirl. After wife was about 4 months pregnant I jumped back on...

How long were you on trt before? and what did you do to kick things in gear? Any HCG or type of pct? or just let it happen?

[FONZY007]

About 6-7months, yea hcg , Nolva and clomid was ok for about 2-3 months after than started to get the symptoms of low test

[Ace111]

I think this Dr was trying to scare me out of wanting TRT.

Just remembered something he said after I questioned the whole 'normal' T level range. He said there are plenty of old males in their 60's within low normal range who have active sexual lives, as if that's what I'm concerned about. This was when he was trying to convince me that I'll be fine once I'm in the 'normal' range even if it's at the bottom of the range. I didn't argue the point with him because I already hurt his ego beforehand but what I should have said is 'do these old men also lift weights, play sports, work, have active social lives, expend their energy on other hobbies, feel physically fine without aches and pains, osteo or other complications?'

I somehow doubt it. I only lift weights and I struggle with that. I don't have the energy or motivation to take on other things at age 25. Who knows what I'd be like in my 60's if I were to stay on this path.

Sorry, just had to write this down to not forget so I can bring it up at my next appointment.

[SEOINAGE]

About 6-7months, yea hcg, Nolva and clomid was ok for about 2-3 months after than started to get the symptoms of low test

so roughly 6 months on trt, how long were you off before you got your wife pregnant? It took us 5 months without trt even involved. I really don't want to have symptoms of low test, kind of why I want hcg as part of my protocol so hopefully I don't have to stop test injections and if I do can keep it somewhat up with hcg. but doc really doesn't want to prescribe it. Plus 6 months isn't too long to be on, I will be on for about two years before wanting to get my wife pregnant again.

[FONZY007]

so roughly 6 months on trt, how long were you off before you got your wife pregnant? It took us 5 months without trt even involved. I really don't want to have symptoms of low test, kind of why I want hcg as part of my protocol so hopefully I don't have to stop test injections and if I do can keep it somewhat up with hcg. but doc really doesn't want to prescribe it. Plus 6 months isn't too long to be on, I will be on for about two years before wanting to get my wife pregnant again.

I got off and the following month she was pregnant

[SEOINAGE]

I got off and the following month she was pregnant

Thanks for responding, I appreciate the info. And sorry ace for asking people sort of unrelated questions in your thread, but its sometimes hard to get first hand info on some things, and I just wanted details to give me some peace of mind.