Dr. Crisler Interview on SQ Testosterone Injections

[steroid.com 1]

GD what if you just edited your post and "explained" where to go without inserting the link to avoid issues?

Also. Your not allowed to leave. A lot of us are here due to you and others like you (you know who you are.) This is a small hurdle which we can overcome!

ps: I know where you live......

First, let me say a huge heartfelt Thank You to all my brothers here for the kind and caring words...it's why I call this place home and nowhere else.

I was just hurt that a link like the one posted here would be deleted without any explanation...it was so beneficial on so many levels.

I, like many of you, put a lot of personal time and effort into our posts all for the benefit of our members and I just got pissed off...but I am better now.

I think most guys here know how to find Crisler's interview with Lanore anyway.

Thanks guys for everything, trust me when I say I greatly appreciate it and more importantly your friendship

Peace.

gd

[bass]

glad its over with! now that we put all that behind us, what are your thoughts of what was discussed regarding the theory of EOD, less conversion and so forth?

[steroid.com 1]

glad its over with! now that we put all that behind us, what are your thoughts of what was discussed regarding the theory of EOD, less conversion and so forth?

b - I have held the belief for some time now that the closer we can get to our own bodies natural biological processes the better. SubQ injections more frequently like EOD (both Test and hCG alternate days) could possibly eliminate the need for an AI...this is exactly what Crisler stated in his conversation with Lanore. He likes anything that can get men away from taking drugs like an AI.

I've had this same conversation with my Physician and he completely believes in the protocol of lower doses more frequently to balance control all hormonal levels on a consistent basis (getting away from the zig zag if you will). The problem here is the compliance issue of the patient to follow such a tedious protocol like this.

For most of us who are only interested in getting to the land of TRT Valhalla it's not a problem; but for many men it's just too much and they won't follow the protocol correctly where a once a week injection of Test and two of hCG is pretty easy to follow.

Listen to Crisler speak to this as it's very interesting and one that I adhere to as well.

[bass]

b - I have held the belief for some time now that the closer we can get to our own bodies natural biological processes the better. SubQ injections more frequently like EOD (both Test and hCG alternate days) could possibly eliminate the need for an AI...this is exactly what Crisler stated in his conversation with Lanore. He likes anything that can get men away from taking drugs like an AI.

I've had this same conversation with my Physician and he completely believes in the protocol of lower doses more frequently to balance control all hormonal levels on a consistent basis (getting away from the zig zag if you will). The problem here is the compliance issue of the patient to follow such a tedious protocol like this.

For most of us who are only interested in getting to the land of TRT Valhalla it's not a problem; but for many men it's just too much and they won't follow the protocol correctly where a once a week injection of Test and two of hCG is pretty easy to follow.

Listen to Crisler speak to this as it's very interesting and one that I adhere to as well.

it really makes sense!

[JohnnyVegas]

Once again, I have forgotten that my case is not like everyone else's. I have no problem with my levels and don't require an AI as it is...even on 200mg/wk.

It makes sense to do more frequent injections if it means avoiding taking another drug, and doing them SQ would definitely be easier than IM.

[bass]

i been PMing Kel regarding cold hand, pain in the finger joints and dry looking skin! the reason i asked Kel because he is struggling with low e2 and thought maybe he's experiencing the same thing i am, i am suspecting I've crashed my e2 since i switched to SQ. Kel responded with other symptoms that low e2 could cause and i been experiencing most of them. i am a big e2 converter, but i really think i am not converting as much since i started SQ. so i am doing blood work soon to see what the heck is going on, and i am totally cutting AI until i see my blood work, and see if my condition will improve.

[JD250]

Keep us posted Bass....nothing would please me more than to be able to cut back drastically or completely eliminate AI

[ecdysone]

It makes sense to do more frequent injections if it means avoiding taking another drug, and doing them SQ would definitely be easier than IM.

I think that's the key.

HCG is one thing (a natural component) but AI's... not only off label use (really meant for women), but long-term effects - and by that I'm referring to decades of use, are totally unknown.

In a cost-benefit scenario, might actually be better to live with the high E2 than develop an issue from the AI's.

Compliance is the other major issue, and while for many on this forum it may seem a small deal - trust me it is probably the number one issue with most patients.

JV you're a real outlier when it comes to test metabolism, but one hell of a lucky guy because of genetics!

[Vettester]

Let's talk with admin and see how we can get our info posted without problems, there must be a way. At least if we knew EXACTLY WHY, we could approach it from a different angle maybe.

I have been in contact with Admin on this subject. For now, the rules stand as they are, we can't post links to clinics and other forums. I know a few myself that I would enjoy talking about and sharing with other members, but it's just the platform we have set.

Gdevine, I understand your frustration, I don't think anyone meant you any disrespect, I'm sure Admin had several things on the plate when this happened.

[kelkel]

JV what does your E2 level run at on a consistent basis?

[steroid.com 1]

[QUOTE=ecdysone;5900650]I think that's the key.

In a cost-benefit scenario, might actually be better to live with the high E2 than develop an issue from the AI's.[QUOTE]

Don't know about this e; high sustained E2 levels are insidious and are a major cause of certain malignancies in men notwithstanding cardiovascular diseases.

[dfwo]

for you guys that are doing subq, are you injecting a smaller amount?

[ecdysone]

[QUOTE=gdevine;5900680]

Don't know about this e; high sustained E2 levels are insidious and are a major cause of certain malignancies in men notwithstanding cardiovascular diseases.

Never heard this before... any studies?

Unless you're referring to metabolic syndrome which is whole different beast.

But you understand were I'm coming from?... artificially controlling E2 [because we are/maybe over administering test] is not natural and using yet another drug to do so, could literally be a killer.

[--->>405<<---]

good video GD i finally found it thru google.. very interesting.. am thinking of doing sub q at some point.. 40mg at a time max would put me EOD.. which is fine actually.. my hcg shot is nothing.. i kind of enjoy giving myself the injections.. i guess im a sicko LOL ... mainly cuz i know what its doing for me.. and the 1000 holes in my leg thing has me thinking too.. i know crisler mentioned the stomach for sq injects but do yall think itd have the same effects no matter where u shoot it ? as long as u can pinch some fat?

[steroid.com 1]

I have been in contact with Admin on this subject. For now, the rules stand as they are, we can't post links to clinics and other forums. I know a few myself that I would enjoy talking about and sharing with other members, but it's just the platform we have set.

Gdevine, I understand your frustration, I don't think anyone meant you any disrespect, I'm sure Admin had several things on the plate when this happened.

Thanks Vette I understand...just frustrated for the guys.

Appreciate the help very much.

[vinceproduction]

good video GD i finally found it thru google.. very interesting.. am thinking of doing sub q at some point.. 40mg at a time max would put me EOD.. which is fine actually.. my hcg shot is nothing.. i kind of enjoy giving myself the injections.. i guess im a sicko LOL ... mainly cuz i know what its doing for me.. and the 1000 holes in my leg thing has me thinking too.. i know crisler mentioned the stomach for sq injects but do yall think itd have the same effects no matter where u shoot it ? as long as u can pinch some fat?

Lol I thought I was strange for actually enjoying giving myself the hcg sub q injections! Good to know I'm not alone. I actually look forward to my weekly cyp IM injections though too! So maybe I am weird... Lol

[steroid.com 1]

[QUOTE=ecdysone;5900691]

Never heard this before... any studies?

Unless you're referring to metabolic syndrome which is whole different beast.

But you understand were I'm coming from?... artificially controlling E2 [because we are/maybe over administering test] is not natural and using yet another drug to do so, could literally be a killer.

e - This from LEF:
When we started offering comprehensive blood test panels back in 1996, men did not understand why we were checking their estrogen levels. Back in those days, estrogen was considered a hormone of importance only to women.

We tested estrogen based on published data indicating that when estrogen levels are unbalanced, the risk of degenerative disease in aging men skyrockets.1-7 Of concern to us 14 years ago were reports showing that excess estrogen contributes to the development of atherosclerosis.8,9 Human clinical studies conducted more than a decade later confirmed our suspicions. Men with even slightly elevated estrogen levels doubled their risk of stroke and had far higher incidences of coronary artery disease.10-12 Our early observations also revealed that men presenting with benign prostate enlargement or prostate cancer had higher blood estrogen levels (and often low free testosterone blood levels).13-16 Subsequent clinical studies help confirm our early observations.17-21

Insufficient estrogen, on the other hand, predisposes men to osteoporosis and bone fracture.22,23

The fact that 99% of men today have no idea what their blood estrogen levels are helps explain the epidemic of age-related disease that is bankrupting this nation’s medical system.

Here's a link to the entire article e: http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2008/...rogen%20levels

I am going to start a new link referencing this article; it's really good information for the guys and a bit eye opening as well.

Plus, who wants higher levels of E2 anyway...just converts more free T and I don't want that for sure

[kelkel]

Yes dfwo. It's taking the weekly dose and splitting it in half and injecting every 3.5 days.

for you guys that are doing subq, are you injecting a smaller amount?

[Herman Munster]

Kel and other SubQ injectors,

What size needles (length/gauge), obviously an insulin needle?

Maybe a stupid question, can you also load HCG w/ the test? Does that defeat the purpose of the HCG?


Thanks

[Vettester]

Kel and other SubQ injectors,

What size needles (length/gauge), obviously an insulin needle?

Maybe a stupid question, can you also load HCG w/ the test? Does that defeat the purpose of the HCG?


Thanks

Herman, for me I like 31g x 5/16". Keep your cyp and hcg shots separate. However, the cyp will stack well with a little B12 if you're so inclined.

[dfwo]

Herman, for me I like 31g x 5/16". Keep your cyp and hcg shots separate. However, the cyp will stack well with a little B12 if you're so inclined.

basically an insulin pin?

[JD250]

I think that's the key.
but AI's... not only off label use (really meant for women), but long-term effects - and by that I'm referring to decades of use, are totally unknown.

In a cost-benefit scenario, might actually be better to live with the high E2 than develop an issue from the AI's.

Compliance is the other major issue, and while for many on this forum it may seem a small deal - trust me it is probably the number one issue with most patients.

AIs weren't made for women they were made to inhibit the enzyme, the side effects for women are very few and mild and considering the much lower doses that we take I would say it's a much safer alternative than high e2 which has been proven through years of studies to be deadly.....of course your death will be labeled as something else but you'll be dead nonetheless.


What do you mean when you say "compliance is a major issue"?

[keep fightin]

went SQ with T 1 month ago 3xHCG,.5 adex twice per week felt great at first then noticed my knees bugging me then my lower back, began feeling run down in afternoon, left elbow aching then libido dropping! noooooo!!!! bw still two weeks out but how did I not suspect crashed E?, I'm thinking I should ether cut back my adex right now or keep to current protocol and get bw sooner?

[lovbyts]

Sounds about right, stop the adex. It may only take a few days to rebound.

[ecdysone]

GD - I'm aware of the LEF study and several others like it.

This exactly shows the difficulty of taking epidemiological studies and using them to prove a point without factoring in all the variables.

The problem with correlating E2 to morbidity is that is also correlates with Metabolic Syndrome (high body fat, diabetes, etc.).

There is a strong correlation between E2 and BMI and therefore morbidity/mortality in a random aging population.

The study I want to see is one where men with normal BMI, and supplemental testosterone show any risks whatsoever from high E2 levels.

I'm saying that guys like us who watch their weight, eat healthy, exercise and take test don't have the epidemiological risk that the general aging population does with elevated E2.

[ecdysone]

What do you mean when you say "compliance is a major issue"?

When you design a dosing regime, the most important consideration is whether a patient will follow it or not. For us on this forum, that may not be an issue today, but after a few decades who is to say?

Good technique is to dose at the half-life (there are exceptions) so you get maximum compliance vs. drug efficiency.

[ecdysone]

Just for interest I plotted out some dosing schedules for test-cyp [concentration vs. days]

Every 2 weeks



Every 7 days:



Every 3.5 days:



Every 2 days:



So I think you can see there is not much advantage dosing at less than 3.5 days

[flatscat]

For some the "kiss" method works perfectly. And, I recommend that all new to trt keep it simple to begin with and see exactly how your body reacts and really get to know your body before going on to more frequent/complicated protocols. In the end, whatever works well for you is what you should do, but as long as you are injecting based on half life you will get a pretty good understanding of how you feel and how your levels rise and fall.

Again, one of our goals is to help guys that have low t feel confident that, if they need it, can and should start to get treated with a solid protocol, and then let them and their physician tweak and change based on levels and outcomes. Sometimes our advanced discussions and protocols do more harm than good. Just my two cents...

[bass]

went SQ with T 1 month ago 3xHCG,.5 adex twice per week felt great at first then noticed my knees bugging me then my lower back, began feeling run down in afternoon, left elbow aching then libido dropping! noooooo!!!! bw still two weeks out but how did I not suspect crashed E?, I'm thinking I should ether cut back my adex right now or keep to current protocol and get bw sooner?

Same scenario here KF!

[APIs]

Just for interest I plotted out some dosing schedules for test-cyp [concentration vs. days]

Every 2 weeks



Every 7 days:



Every 3.5 days:



Every 2 days:



So I think you can see there is not much advantage dosing at less than 3.5 days

Very interesting if indeed accurate. Wow, that 2 week interval looks brutal to deal with and in-line with what people on it have reported lol...

[APIs]

For some the "kiss" method works perfectly. And, I recommend that all new to trt keep it simple to begin with and see exactly how your body reacts and really get to know your body before going on to more frequent/complicated protocols. In the end, whatever works well for you is what you should do, but as long as you are injecting based on half life you will get a pretty good understanding of how you feel and how your levels rise and fall.

Again, one of our goals is to help guys that have low t feel confident that, if they need it, can and should start to get treated with a solid protocol, and then let them and their physician tweak and change based on levels and outcomes. Sometimes our advanced discussions and protocols do more harm than good. Just my two cents...

I'd say this post hits the nail on the head...

[steroid.com 1]

For some the "kiss" method works perfectly. And, I recommend that all new to trt keep it simple to begin with and see exactly how your body reacts and really get to know your body before going on to more frequent/complicated protocols. In the end, whatever works well for you is what you should do, but as long as you are injecting based on half life you will get a pretty good understanding of how you feel and how your levels rise and fall.

Again, one of our goals is to help guys that have low t feel confident that, if they need it, can and should start to get treated with a solid protocol, and then let them and their physician tweak and change based on levels and outcomes. Sometimes our advanced discussions and protocols do more harm than good. Just my two cents...

Sooo totally agree.

Advanced protocols are NOT for newbies and they should follow your advise exactly Flats compliance concerns notwithstanding.

[JohnnyVegas]

For some the "kiss" method works perfectly. And, I recommend that all new to trt keep it simple to begin with and see exactly how your body reacts and really get to know your body before going on to more frequent/complicated protocols. In the end, whatever works well for you is what you should do, but as long as you are injecting based on half life you will get a pretty good understanding of how you feel and how your levels rise and fall.

Again, one of our goals is to help guys that have low t feel confident that, if they need it, can and should start to get treated with a solid protocol, and then let them and their physician tweak and change based on levels and outcomes. Sometimes our advanced discussions and protocols do more harm than good. Just my two cents...

Totally agree. Actually, I am still keeping it simple and won't change unless there is a clear, major benefit to doing it another way.

[keep fightin]

agree with Flats, KISS is good, but the devil is in the details, for instance as edcysone showed with the T graph dosing on the half life makes sense. how now do we work in our adex? on T1xew IM and .5adex 2xew I felt dialed in then after 6 month's or so could feel the lag about day 5, switched to T2xew SQ and .5adex 2xew and just sunk after a few weeks, goin with lovbyts and staying off adex for a few days at least, tough to figure out how to approach my next BW

[bass]

the problem is clinics will prescribe AAS cycles in stead of a proper treatment, so following their protocols is not necessary a good thing. i remember when i was a newbie i posted my starting protocol and the first guy jumped on me was Flats, he suggested that i back off of three major meds, Deca , Anavar and B12, and only take testosterone and AI, of course being a newbie i trusted the clinic and a month later i felt like i was going to explode, way too many meds with high doses in a starting TRT. i just wish i took Flats advice and didn't have to go through that roller coaster.

[APIs]

I'm saying that guys like us who watch their weight, eat healthy, exercise and take test don't have the epidemiological risk that the general aging population does with elevated E2.

Bingo! From where I'm sitting today, I think we can over-analyze the use of a little AI vs. the larger picture at hand. I mean we truly don't know the long-term effects of using an AI to control E2 levels. However, I feel pretty safe using 1.5 mgs Anastrazole per week when compared to the morbidly-obese guy standing next to me at the gym that will never even be aware of or treat his high E2 levels over the coming decades. IMO, I'm more likely to suffer from my intake of Table Salt than from the use of an AI. Just my thoughts...I hope I'm right .

[FONZY007]

Ive been doing SQ injections for the last 8 weeks, I see the doctor in about 3 weeks I will discontinue my AI maybe next week and see where everything g stands and post up for everyone to see.

To make clear I'm on trt and inject 60mgs twice a week and do feel better than injecting 120mgs once a week

[JohnnyVegas]

I cannot wait until blood work starts coming in from you guys that have switched to SQ.

[Herman Munster]

For some the "kiss" method works perfectly. And, I recommend that all new to trt keep it simple to begin with and see exactly how your body reacts and really get to know your body before going on to more frequent/complicated protocols. In the end, whatever works well for you is what you should do, but as long as you are injecting based on half life you will get a pretty good understanding of how you feel and how your levels rise and fall.

Again, one of our goals is to help guys that have low t feel confident that, if they need it, can and should start to get treated with a solid protocol, and then let them and their physician tweak and change based on levels and outcomes. Sometimes our advanced discussions and protocols do more harm than good. Just my two cents...

For me; the KISS method would also include the full process. So, to switch from an IM to SubQ would eliminate a set of different gear. I could be using the same size syringe/needle as I am w/ HCG . At .5ml Every 5th day, following Dr. John (assuming I have the up to date protocol) injecting HCG 2 days prior and 1 day prior to test cyp would be very simple.

[bass]

I cannot wait until blood work starts coming in from you guys that have switched to SQ.

have you seen mine? at 60mgs twice a weeks my total was 539 and my free T was above normal.