TRT/HRT Longtimers- Anyone else not getting the results they used to?

[forrest_and_trees]

I'm just curious if I'm one of the lucky ones or what, but it will be 3 years this summer that I've been on TRT/HRT and over the past few months I've been feeling like I'm not getting the same results I used to when I started. Part of my HRT is thyroid related and even though I'd already been taking near the top end of standard thyroid dosages, my T4 levels are lower than they've ever been, so my doc upped my dosage, but still not feeling like I did before. And even some of the Low T symptoms I had before beginning TRT, are starting to creep back. I'd already been on the high end of Test dosage with 200mg a week, but now I've upped it to 300 and feel somewhat better, but I'm concerned as to weather or not this is normal. Even my HCG dosage is above normal and I'm not getting the results I hear from others. What gives? Should I be concerned?

My current regimen is:

TRT 150mg X2 a week [It used to e 100mg x2]
Anastorzole .5mg a day
Westhroid- 8grains a day
HCG 300iu x4 a week -recently I upped it to 5x
DHEA 25mg x5 days a week
D3 1000IU a day
Zinc 50mg a day
Magnesium 375mg a day
Aspirin 325mg a day
Daily Multi Vitamin
Recently I added 450mg of Saw Palmetto [Thanks Vette]

[doc w]

What is ur e2 level. I was on letroze 1/4 tab a day and drive my estradiol down to nothing. Most miserable time of my life even on TRT. Arimedex. O.5 mg per day seems high. I tAke 0.25mg eod( test cyp 220/wk) with estradiol of 21

[forrest_and_trees]

It's in the teens, when I started, it was 160. I used to take .25 a day and any more made me feel crappy, but after adding HCG and DHEA, I feel fine on .5 a day. When I back off, I can feel it, I get moody, emotional, my nipples get puffy etc.

[BillyBob210]

That's a pretty high dose of test and AI, but as we all know, it's about how you feel. What is it that doesn't feel right? Physical, mental?

[HRTstudent]

That's a pretty high dose of test and AI, but as we all know, it's about how you feel. What is it that doesn't feel right? Physical, mental?

Definitely!

What are your numbers?

Surely anything you have going poorly at this point is NOT because you have low T.

[yannick35]

This is a great thread, i am very new to this myself and still tweeking my test levels, i am very interested i the long time effect of TRT

[forrest_and_trees]

As of last month, my T was 883.

As for how I feel, before I started TRT/HRT the list of symptoms was too long to print, I was an extreme case having gone undiagnosed for over 15 years and was complicated by a propensity for HIGH E2 and low thyroid. But some of the things I was beginning to notice again were aches and pains all over my whole body, weaker erections, lack of confidence and drive, feeling depressed, feeling weak, tired, foggy etc. I've gone too far with the low E before, and I know how that feels, but that usually rebounds pretty quickly, within a day or so at most. I've even tried staying off the E2 or a few days to see how it goes, and the moodiness, puffy nipples, and decrease in libido only gets worse. This has been going on for a while. After upping my T dose, I do feel better as far as the aches and pains, and weakness, libido and erections are a little better, but not as good as they were a while ago, and I still feel depressed and confidence is way down.

[BillyBob210]

Are you eating enough? Are you lifting regularly?

[forrest_and_trees]

Are you eating enough? Are you lifting regularly?

That's another issue, about 9 month after beginning TRT, after years away, I was once again able to start working out. I was hitting the gym 3 times a week, all was going well, then had to stop because of injuries. I've been trying to get back into it, but it's been slow progress and some days I just feel like shit... it's hard to explain.

[BillyBob210]

I'd say get another full panel done and everything looks ok just try to push yourself physically without injury. Sometimes our head overides our body. Try and think positive Brother. Good luck.
Bill

[yannick35]

This is why its very important to have a program that suits you, and maybe have to face the fact that lifting heavy is a thing of the past, for me with my ligament laxity and other injuries if i lift heavy, i re injure myself and its back to square one.

I am very confused about being put on TRT myself because my test level is at 640, i have been told that low T is below 400, and that most people who are close to 40 years old and belwo 700 develop muscle spams, i also had pains in the hands and more. But since i started TRT i feel great.

What works for me now is high reps, less rest between sets i also feel that TRT will take care of the muscle mass and fat loss along with good dieting of course.

[sparverius]

Saw Palmetto inhibits conversion of T to DHT. DHT is more androgenic than T so it's a good part of what you feel. Not to mention causing hair loss if you have too much. Finasteride does the same thing as Saw Palmetto.

I was on a low dose of Saw Palmetto due to a few mild prostate symptoms, but when I switched from Androgel to Test. Cyp. which does not produce as much DHT I stopped. After reading more about it I'm not sure I'd take it again.

Not being able to work out would have me feeling like shit even if I was healthy and did not need HRT.

[HRTstudent]

Your T level is very good.

Its important to remember that people can be depressed and feel poorly because of other reasons. The highly esteemed Dr Mariano (who used to post on his forum) says that, for his patients, once you have a Total T over 650, anything else wrong with you is due to something else.

Having said that, I probably wouldn't waste time changing around your T protocol which seems to be working since you are in the 800's. Very good range I would say.

[elendil]

good luck sir

[brazey]

Do you know what your free t and shbg are? I ask because I was reading on another board that a guy with high total & free t and in range e2 was feeling bad like when his t was too low. After some research he discovered that as long as he keeps his e2 and his shbg numbers balanced he feels great.

[forrest_and_trees]

Your T level is very good.

Its important to remember that people can be depressed and feel poorly because of other reasons. The highly esteemed Dr Mariano (who used to post on his forum) says that, for his patients, once you have a Total T over 650, anything else wrong with you is due to something else.

Having said that, I probably wouldn't waste time changing around your T protocol which seems to be working since you are in the 800's. Very good range I would say.

Actually, that is something that crossed my mind as I was creating this thread. It wouldn't be surprising since my life is fct 12 ways til Sunday due to all this, i.e. Low T, hypo thyroid etc.. It could be any number of things that's got me down, but I'm working on all of it. I'm even going to counseling once a week. All this LowT and Hypothyroid crap has *really* done a number on my life. I'm a mere shadow of a spec of the man I used to be. I won't lie, it sucks and it's a challenge to keep my head above water and moving forward, especially with all the set backs. I think I'm making progress then something hit's me out of left field and sets me back. Like my injuries. I actually had to have surgery as a result and it doesn't help that I'm not working and have no insurance. I was making 6 figs at one point in my life and now I'm forced to move back home in my 40's and go back to school to start all over again from scratch, and much of it is a direct or indirect result of my LowT, Hypo issues... It sucks hard!

Do you know what your free t and shbg are? I ask because I was reading on another board that a guy with high total & free t and in range e2 was feeling bad like when his t was too low. After some research he discovered that as long as he keeps his e2 and his shbg numbers balanced he feels great.

Actually no, my SHBG is not on my panel. As for T levels, the only thing I have are serum.

Thanks all for the support. I've been coming here for a few years now and I really mean it when I say this site has saved my life... ...OK enough with the mellow drama shit...

[DaRoq]

Do you know what your free t and shbg are? I ask because I was reading on another board that a guy with high total & free t and in range e2 was feeling bad like when his t was too low. After some research he discovered that as long as he keeps his e2 and his shbg numbers balanced he feels great.

So what exactly did that guy do? Raising e2 would also increase shbg and lower free test.

[APIs]

That's another issue, about 9 month after beginning TRT, after years away, I was once again able to start working out. I was hitting the gym 3 times a week, all was going well, then had to stop because of injuries. I've been trying to get back into it, but it's been slow progress and some days I just feel like shit... it's hard to explain.

This could be your answer right here. You really need to be honest with yourself on this. You cannot maximize the effects of TRT without staying fit. If you're not hitting the gym, eating right & staying in shape then of course you're going to deteriorate. There's no avoiding this. Physical fitness affects all aspects of one's well being especially Mental regardless of TRT. I would also say that a level of 883 on 300 mgs per week is a pretty low total to have also. I'm on 200/week & can sometimes see levels of >1500. So maybe there are some underlying issues involved here? But to answer your question, I feel much better today than I did in the beginning over two years ago. My strength, well being & mental outlook only continues to improve. Good luck!

[ecdysone]

Gosh, you know you are on the high-end of everything: test, HCG , etc...

Something is just not right.

On this, I might go with hrt: could be the issue is not test related.

Pounding away with 300 mg test seems wrong.

Thyroid, adrenal???

Otherwise, start from the beginning: get a complete physical, and like really complete BW and then talk with your doc.

[forrest_and_trees]

I appreciate the input guys. But I do see my doc pretty regularly, that's why I had BW from last month. I do have thyroid issues too, you might not have caught that in my first post, but I have Hypothyroidism as well as Low T. I had been taking 4 Grains [252mg] daily of a natural thyroid med, then I had to bump it to 6 grains and on my last panel, my T3 was the lowest it's been, so now my doc has bumped me up again and I'm on 8 grains, which is about the top end for thyroid meds.

My injury was an umbilical hernia that I'd been living with for several years. When I started hitting the gym again, it got worse to the point I had to stop and have surgery. I had the surgery last summer and all has healed well, so I started back at the gym. Then I injured my shoulder doing butterflies. I thought it was just the usual muscle pain and powered through until it go so bad by the second week that I couldn't lift a jug of milk out of the top shelf of the fridge, so I took it easy for a few weeks to give my body a chance to heal. about a month after that, I took a spill on my bike and sprained my left wrist, about two weeks after that, I had another spill inline skating and sprained my right. So I'd been quite a mess and had to take a break altogether for about a month. The injuries are healing but now t's everything else that's getting me down now. It's difficult to stay positive when so much is kicking my ass.

Before I was diagnosed I'd been living with Low T, high E and low thyroid for nearly 15 years. Previous to that I was very active. I'd mountain bike three times a week for a total of 60 miles a and over 4000 ft in elevation. I'd ski at least 2 weekends a month in the winter and inline skate in the summer, sometimes daily. I used to hike a lot and work out in the gym twice a week, golf etc. But things began to deteriorate because of the LowT etc., and over 15 years my life went to shit.

I went from 190 lbs. fighting weight with a 32" waste and 54" chest, to over 400 lbs. and a 56" waste when I was diagnosed two and a half years ago.

Once the TRT/HRT began to kick in, I was able to get on a good regime and return to the gym. I was losing 10 lbs. a month and lost nearly 90 lbs. before my hernia problems last year.

During my down time waiting for surgery and the couple months of recovery afterward, I'd even lost 10 lbs. without exercise. Then I hit a plateau and couldn't loose anymore weight even though i was at the gym for an hour to an hour and half ,2-3 times a week. Then it got worse to the point that I began to put weight back on and I gained 10 lbs. even though I continued working out. The good news is, since my doc upped my thyroid meds about a month ago, I've lost 8 lbs. so that much I'm grateful for, but it's been a constant battle these past couple years and it gets real discouraging at times.

My doc has been real helpful but it just seem like no matter how hard I try, it's just not enough. I know it would help if I could go to an Endo or AA clinic, but I'm paying out of pocket for *everything* and all I can afford right now is a GP. I've been out of work longer than I care to admit and since I'm not a minority or a female with a bunch of kids, I don't qualify for any medical. Which is ridiculous considering at one point, I was paying out over $75k a year in taxes.. Now my savings and 401k are gone, I've been forced to move back home at 43 and I'm living hand to mouth. This is NOT where I expected to be at this point in my life. Pardon me for getting a little off topic there, but it's all part of the same big mess that I deal with every day.

The good news is, I have made great progress, I'm now 340 lbs. though to see me, most people would think weight 100 lbs. less than that. My waste is 44" and I can once again do many of the things I couldn't do of the past 15 years. My goal is to get back to 190 lbs. and I'm not going to give up no matter how many speed bumps I have to deal with. But I sure could use a what ever help I can get.

Thanks for tolerating the long rant. Many of you here already know all this stuff, but I've been away for a long while and figured I'd fill everyone in on all the details and save myself the trouble of having to explain everything one at a time in response to various comments ...So there you have it. Thanks again.

[lovbyts]

Sounds familiar in many ways. I was actually born with a umbilical cord hernia. Due to injury and desiese I also spent about 15 years+ getting out of shape, no gym time and feeling like crap where as before I was working out 6x a week almost 2 hrs a day and had energy to burn. Getting on TRT has helped me get my life back but nothing like before. It sound like something is still not just right obviously and maybe you can cut everything down a little and still keep the high test levels. More is not always better. I had higher test/free test when taking 150 a week than when I blasted with 400 due to E2. AI is great but it's better to get the E2 under control with lower dose and more frequent injection than just an AI.

Since your doctor seems very helpful talk to him about starting HGH, that may be another option that will help the overall feeling and quality.

[zaggahamma]

This is a great thread, i am very new to this myself and still tweeking my test levels, i am very interested i the long time effect of TRT

yeh, i'm surprised you werent the author of it

forrest and trees out of the blue

[forrest_and_trees]

Hey JP, Yep, still kickin, just been laying low.

[brazey]

So what exactly did that guy do? Raising e2 would also increase shbg and lower free test.

In his case his shbg was low at 9.9 and his e2 was 25 but still had all the negative sides of too high or too low e2. He lowered e2 to 10 and all his sides went away.

[spywizard]

i'll assume that you are taking 3iu of hgh 4x week??? not 300iu ..

[forrest_and_trees]

i'll assume that you are taking 3iu of hgh 4x week??? not 300iu ..

That's 300iu of HCG ; actually I'm not taking HGH, though I'd like to. Just too damned expensive and I cant even get my doc to write the script for the HCG, let alone HGH. Which is why I've been buying my HCG overseas. However, I recently saw something about certain peptides that are supposed to increase HGH levels. Do they actually work?

[AnabolicBoy1981]

lose the damn saw palmetto. dont inhibit dht, its too important. IMO esyrogen is worse for your prostate than DHT

[forrest_and_trees]

I've only started taking saw palmetto about a month ago because ever since I started TRT, I hadn't been urinating as strongly. The saw palmetto seems to help with that.

[go2failure]

I've only started taking saw palmetto about a month ago because ever since I started TRT, I hadn't been urinating as strongly. The saw palmetto seems to help with that.

You should get cortisol, pregnenolone, progesterone, aldosterone, all checked along with your panels if you arent already.