A dozen reasons NOT to use HCG

[GFA]

Why all the hate for HCG ? You should visit the hcgdiet forums.

500 calorie diets + HCG.

I got blasted there for telling a guy that was complaining about being hungry that he should start eating more, workout and lose weight the right way.

[zaggahamma]

whos hating on it? the debate is whos on it and whether necessary and/or its benefit...also if buying overseas is more risky

[GFA]

The OP is frowning upon the use of HCG and listing reasons why you should not use it.

[ecdysone]

whos hating on it? the debate is whos on it and whether necessary and/or its benefit...also if buying overseas is more risky

Precisely!

(the dumb-a$$ OP is using it)

And hey, vette ...a bit tongue-in-cheek

[Vettester]

Precisely!

(the dumb-a$$ OP is using it)

And hey, vette ...a bit tongue-in-cheek

Gotcha

[zaggahamma]

Gotcha

lmao...i was wondering about that...least u owned up to it...i'm the read smiley right?

[zaggahamma]

The OP is frowning upon the use of HCG and listing reasons why you should not use it.

i like having a debate and/or seeing points of view from diff angles as long as its factual and not too much hypothetical

[optionsdude]

Been wondering about this HMG stuff. I saw it on another forums sponsor site. They described it as HCG on steroids . Will have do to some time checking it out and asking around.

[Vettester]

lmao...i was wondering about that...least u owned up to it...i'm the read smiley right?

Exactly ... ecdysone has a little more dryer sense of humor than I gave him credit for.

The sad part is, I could see the media trying to take a 1 in 10,000 scenario to demonize the stuff. HRT is going fairly smooth right now ... Hoping it stays that way.

[steroid.com 1]

i like having a debate and/or seeing points of view from diff angles as long as its factual and not too much hypothetical

Me too and why this is a excellent tread started by ecd...as usual.

[JD250]

The ones I'm talking about just die off quietly, long before they have a chance to post on this forum!

That's what I figured, either that or they are all becoming transvestites, that'll teach em to inject womens pee. I need to go make sure I can still see my adams apple.

[ecdysone]

Thanks gd.

Actually your astute comment up-thread reminded me of a potential 13th possible reason

HCG contains the same approximate amino acid sequence as not only LH (which is why it can mimic its effect) but also the same sequence as TSH.

High levels of HCG could therefore signal the pituitary to suppress TSH production and could lead to hypothyroidism.

[JohnnyVegas]

Thanks gd.

Actually your astute comment up-thread reminded me of a potential 13th possible reason

HCG contains the same approximate amino acid sequence as not only LH (which is why it can mimic its effect) but also the same sequence as TSH.

High levels of HCG could therefore signal the pituitary to suppress TSH production and could lead to hypothyroidism.

Man, you guys make my head hurt...in a good way.

Do you guys do this for a living (work in the medical field in general), or is TRT just an obsessive hobby?

[HRTstudent]

Interesting, never heard about the TSH correlation.

[ecdysone]

Interesting, never heard about the TSH correlation.

Thyroid issues are a quite common occurrence in pregnant women (high HCG levels).

Interesting, some have proposed using HCG during PCT as a way of re-stimulating thyroid functions, or in individuals with poor thyroid function.

There is a study or two that shows HCG has only a very weak TSH effect, but then again, others have disagreed.

-JV: while I have worked in the medical field, I suppose I do get a bit over obsessed with the concept of injecting strange stuff into myself

[jamotech]

Thyroid issues are a quite common occurrence in pregnant women (high HCG levels).

Interesting, some have proposed using HCG during PCT as a way of re-stimulating thyroid functions, or in individuals with poor thyroid function.

There is a study or two that shows HCG has only a very weak TSH effect, but then again, others have disagreed.

-JV: while I have worked in the medical field, I suppose I do get a bit over obsessed with the concept of injecting strange stuff into myself

When you say it has an effect on TSH, raise or lower? If it is improving thyroid function, TSH should go down correct...

[ecdysone]

With guys like us taking HCG is should theoretically stimulate more thyroid activity by mimicking TSH and therefore be a positive, but when the pituitary is flooded with all of the real and look-alike TSH, it would suppress natural TSH production. I've confused myself as to which would actually win out

But since you've bumped this thread up a notch, I'm prepared to add No. 14:

A well known and respected Doc (Dr. S, on another forum) states he would never prescribe HCG UNLESS there is a clinical reason to do so.

And, yet, another well known "men's health" Doc (Dr. K.) states he apparently NEVER gives his patients HCG no matter what. Something about it's simply cosmetic and therefore of no consequence.

In the battle of the well-known Men's Health docs, I count 2.5 ( Dr. M is 50/50) to 1.5 against HCG, which is rather sobering.

[kelkel]

I'm curious whether any of the above mentioned docs are on TRT. If so, and they suffered testicular atrophy, would their opinions then change?

[steroid.com 1]

I'm curious whether any of the above mentioned docs are on TRT. If so, and they suffered testicular atrophy, would their opinions then change?

LOL! Exactly my thoughts.

Let's see how these "Docs" would feel when their testicles start shrinking and hurt and their sack starts pulling up real tight like my 6 year old.

Or their nipples star to get real sensitive and start to grow...I could go on.

Irresponsible Docs treating men in a harmful way = negligence.

[zaggahamma]

sorry if its been said before but seems fitting right here in this thread but hcg only benefits one of the group: primary & secondary ?

[ecdysone]

I'm curious whether any of the above mentioned docs are on TRT. If so, and they suffered testicular atrophy, would their opinions then change?

But that's a bit like asking your cancer treatment doc if he has suffered any of the symptoms you have.

I'm not claiming to have interviewed them and gotten their latest opinions but only what I read from various websites. But the four I mentioned (include Dr's Scally, Crisler, Kruse and Mariano) are either opposed to HCG use, or would only use it when testicular atrophy was severe. In general, they are against it being used prophylactically.

Question though: was the testicular atrophy before you guys switched from IM to SQ?

[JohnnyVegas]

And, yet, another well known "men's health" Doc (Dr. K.) states he apparently NEVER gives his patients HCG no matter what. Something about it's simply cosmetic and therefore of no consequence.

...and he probably only has sex to procreate?

Maybe I have more issues than others, but not doing something because it is "simply cosmetic" is stupid. Cosmetics ARE of consequence. Take that from a kid that grew up a chubby ginger with a big nose.

Regardless, I also take HCG so that my testicles continue to function in general, and in case it increases the chance of having kids in the future (there is still a very slight possibly). Or, am I incorrect in my beliefs on that? I am curious to know since I hadn't given much thought to HCG before this thread.

[ecdysone]

Regardless, I also take HCG so that my testicles continue to function in general, and in case it increases the chance of having kids in the future (there is still a very slight possibly). Or, am I incorrect in my beliefs on that? I am curious to know since I hadn't given much thought to HCG before this thread.

It is my understanding (have absolutely no first hand experience) that fertility can be restored even after many years of TRT where HCG (or HMG;LH) was not used. It should also be remembered that, in any event, HCG does not provide much FSH effect which would be required for spermogenesis to continue.

[kelkel]

Their claim to it being cosmetic is upsetting to me! By that logic so is severe acne, facial scarring as well as other malignancies that effect a persons appearance. And lest we forget, breast augmentations! OMG where would we be without that cosmetic advan***ent!

[flatscat]

sorry if its been said before but seems fitting right here in this thread but hcg only benefits one of the group: primary & secondary ?

great point JP and should be number 15 if primary

[DaRoq]

In his paper, "TRT: A Recipe for Success", Dr. Crisler writes that hCG dramatically increase aromatase activity, thus elevating estrogens. This is interesting to note because most of the guys on hCG seem to also need an AI.

He also mentions that you run the risk of inducing LH insensitivity at higher dosages, and therefore may cause primary hypogonadism, which leaves you no choice but to be on exogenous testosterone for life. Frankly, I like the idea of being able to function on my own if I had to, albeit at a disadvantage.

[ecdysone]

Yeah, DaRoq, I was just reading about this a few days ago...it may be worse than imagined because some guys are reporting an HCG -induced "high" that causes anxiety/panic attacks shortly thereafter due to the spike in E2.

So with flats contribution, I'll make it 15. and 16.

gd and K... I promise I'll stop at 20!

[JohnnyVegas]

Great thread. Always so much great info in this quiet little corner of the forum.

I am still taking HCG ...but I am thinking about things that I didn't in the past.

[ecdysone]

Great thread. Always so much great info in this quiet little corner of the forum.

I am still taking HCG...but I am thinking about things that I didn't in the past.

Dude... it's like the men's club...the guys who've been around.

I'm still taking HCG too, but wonder if it's a good thing or not...

[jamotech]

With guys like us taking HCG is should theoretically stimulate more thyroid activity by mimicking TSH and therefore be a positive, but when the pituitary is flooded with all of the real and look-alike TSH, it would suppress natural TSH production.

If it mimics TSH, then theoretically your thyroid would initially produce more than normal as its receiving more TSH, in turn your natural TSH production would be suppressed because your thyroid is now producing more than normal... body says we dont have to stimulate it as much. Unnecessary trick on the body, either way doesnt bother me any different than all the reasons not to take advil.

[jamotech]

And to be honest I avoid nsaids whenever possible.

[flatscat]

Just to be clear... I take it and won't stop until i have a valid reason too. I feel it helps me not only with atrophy, but with my whole sense of well being.

Btw gd is the only thing that gives me panic attacks

Peace

[JD250]

In his paper, "TRT: A Recipe for Success", Dr. Crisler writes that hCG dramatically increase aromatase activity, thus elevating estrogens. This is interesting to note because most of the guys on hCG seem to also need an AI. I've never read where he uses the word "dramatically" and even so, what does that mean exactly?

He also mentions that you run the risk of inducing LH insensitivity at higher dosages, and therefore may cause primary hypogonadism, which leaves you no choice but to be on exogenous testosterone for life. Frankly, I like the idea of being able to function on my own if I had to, albeit at a disadvantage. The key words here are HIGHER DOSES I believe that's why he recommends no more than 300IU eod or no more than 1000IU every week, I don't believe anyone on TRT uses more than what Dr. C himself has recommended.

Responses in bold.^^

[Ryanmcd]

I used HCG from Dr John's compounding pharm and the over-seas stuff and did not notice anything different but I like knowing it's not coming from India but if it was a blind test I would not know any different.

Also now that I am 100% dialed in I feel great and I feel out of everything I have changed HCG helped me the most, I went from 289 test and IGF of 208 to 750ish test and 423 IGF1 and feel the best I ever have in my life. Not sure what doubled my IGF 1 but I am on HCG, DHEA cream, and Androgel and the 208# was 10/11 my last draw was 2/12.

[DaRoq]

Responses in bold.^^

I really have no vested interested in trying to debunk the use of hCG . I was simply stating what I read in a few years old document. Specifically, he uses the word "dramatically" on page 10 in the first paragraph under the heading "HCG". Although not stated explicitly, "dramatically" in this context means that "higher doses" (defined as > 500IU per shot) inappropriately elevates estrogens. Whether or not splitting that dose into 2x250IU over consecutive days mitigates the risk is beyond me.

I'm sure people aren't using more than the updated 1000IU/wk dose recommened by Dr. C, but it still seems like many need an AI due to elevated e2. I don't think hCG alone is the culprit, though. Rather, it could be the higher testosterone levels produced by the combination if hCG helps produce some of it naturally. Finding the right balance is probably the key, but I guess it's a "why bother" situation since AIs are available to make it a non-issue.

[steroid.com 1]

Btw gd is the only thing that gives me panic attacks

Good and let's keep it that way...LOL

[steroid.com 1]

Responses in bold.^^

100% correct JD.

We need to make sure posts are accurate here...

[DaRoq]

100% correct JD.

We need to make sure posts are accurate here...

I cited a specific article stating his thoughts on the matter at that point in time. The fact that he updated his thinking shows that TRT is less science and more trial/error and observation. I'm sure the limits will change again as interest in TRT/HRT becomes more prevalent and more people clamor to follow Dr. Crisler, et al based on "success stories". Then the newly-enlightened will be arguing that what we believe to be a good protocol today is somehow antiquated and all doctors following it are clueless. It's a neverending cycle that doesn't warrant arguing about, unless a man's case is so severe that he needs to be on the so-called "cutting edge".

I apologize for posting "inaccurate" information.

[JD250]

^^^^ Not the case at all, you did not post inaccurate info, my points were specifically made to do nothing more than to put the info in your post into the correct context, nothing more, your post was outstanding and contributed good info to the discussion I was just being redundant(as I often am) in keeping the context of the info in mind. I believe GD was making note of that fact, I don't believe he was saying your info was inaccurate either, however if it's out of context it just as well be inaccurate..........we're on the same team bro, didn't mean to come across as condescending or a know it all.

[tcw]

I see a lot of overseas ordering....you guys aren't worried about international orders?

I ordered mine from India but it was made in Switzerland I'm I going to die? Lol