Are there TRT members that are not using

[steroid.com 1]

[QUOTE=flatscat;5917124]
What ever happened to considering the t to e ratio? we used to talk about that.[/QUOTE]

T to E ratios is not a measurement used by TRT Physicians in the know.

Optimal levels of each are more important.

Most men, especially those with age related Low Testosterone , will need an AI.

[steroid.com 1]

[QUOTE=hrt;5917162]
Do note that it is not inclusive of all his patients, just the ones who get high estradiol.[/QUOTE]

Not be a prick but; how many is that?

One of the most redundant posts we see here by new guys starting out on a TRT protocol where thier Physician doesn't understand proper administration of therapy is increased E2 resulting in neg sides.

I can't even count how many times we've seen it here where a guy has no understanding why he feels like he does till he understands what happens with aromatization.

Worse yet, if not controlled, all the testosterone in the world isn't going to do him any good as it will just continue to convert making a bad situation worse.

Not all men need an AI (we know that) if they are blessed with great livers; but the majority will and especially those injecting.

BW never lies.

[flatscat]

This quick dismissal will not suffice. You sound like a physician trying to avoid a discussion.

Pretty sure there are no standard ai protocols given to young men whose t levels are at the top of the range or above and whose e2 levels are surely above 20-30 and most certainly at least in the upper range. Maybe there should be.

Or maybe a reasonable ratio of total t to e2 of 20 or 30 to 1 would be a better way to look at it. It does make sense to me that there should be a balance and correlation between the two for optimal health.

Just because the guru's you copy and paste have said little about this. and there is no standard lab test does not mean it is unworthy of our discussion.

Again, almost all negatives associated with high e2 such as cancer, heart problems, and more are also associated with low t.

[PPC]

Regarding the original question - I have several men in my life on T therapy. At this time none of them use HCG or an AI. My husband started off on shots, AI and HCG. He now prefers androgel alone, feels better overall that way. But we'll see what happens in the future, wanting to stay open minded. He has some shrinkage but hardly noticable.

I have two brothers who have pellets implanted, they both feel fantastic, no AI's or HCG. I've asked them about shrinkage and they both told me it's not a problem. I don't understand how that could be since one of my brothers T levels get up to 1500 on the pellets. His particular Doc pushes him that high to get his free T levels into top 1/3 range. He initiated T therapy with total T in the 800's yet low free T! He has made a huge positive transformation on pellets.

My Dad started out his TRT with Dr Crisler. He started out on shots since they were the least expensive and Dad was paying for everything out of pocket. Crisler did not encourage him to use an AI or HCG despite his papers talking about both these two, but my Dad did not convert much of his T to estrogen so no need. My Dad asked him about HCG at my urging but Crisler was like, "if you want to..." I have another close friend who is currently a patient of Crisler's. He uses his gel, he is not on an AI or HCG. I don't know what percentage of Crisler's patients use these other two parts of the TRT trinity but yet a third guy I know has recently flown in to see Crisler, again on the gel, again no HCG or AI. Crisler did put all three of these men on his GHRP 6 protocol however.

I think the three legged protocol of T plus an AI, plus shots is great for a lot of guys. I used to think it was the only way to go, but all men respond differently, so I ended up doing a 360 mind change on that one. The thing that changed my mind was lurking at testicular cancer forums. A lot to be learned there. A lot of men on those forums talk to each other who had their testicles removed in their 20's since that is a common age for the disease to strike. Some of them have been on T therapy for more than a decade. Most of them use gels or even shots, but I noticed it is more rare for an AI or HCG to be used, yet that does happen. I read account after account of how many of them still feel fantastic and are doing well with their simple T only protocols. So... many ways to skin a cat.

[zaggahamma]

Very informative post thanks ppc
Interesting about the one u mention going on trt even with total t in 800's

[GFA]

I am considering dropping HCG due to costs. Good to hear others are doing well on just T.

[PPC]

Very informative post thanks ppc
Interesting about the one u mention going on trt even with total t in 800's

Yes, it is interesting. He was going down the typical middle aged hill. I urged him to get a blood panel taken after the benefits my husband had recieved from T. Strange results with my brother's blood work results. Most Docs wouldn't have dared put him on T. But the one he has (who does pellets) said she felt he could really benefit from it. His turn around has been incredible. He is a very tall guy, 6 ft 7, but could never put on muscle. Now he has leaned down in the belly but hardened up elsewhere, he loves to show off his guns. Funny.

[zaggahamma]

Yes, it is interesting. He was going down the typical middle aged hill. I urged him to get a blood panel taken after the benefits my husband had recieved from T. Strange results with my brother's blood work results. Most Docs wouldn't have dared put him on T. But the one he has (who does pellets) said she felt he could really benefit from it. His turn around has been incredible. He is a very tall guy, 6 ft 7, but could never put on muscle. Now he has leaned down in the belly but hardened up elsewhere, he loves to show off his guns. Funny.

lol....gotta love goin to the gun show

[HRTstudent]

gdevine,

From what I have heard, I believe Crisler sees or has seen thousands of patients. I believe I heard this from the podcasts he's been in. He definitely has some experience

Also, I don't take offense to you questioning it. I don't pretend to be an expert, but I do note what the experts say as well as I can.

[Vettester]

Total: 633 (Range 292-867)
Free: 20.4 (Range 4.8 - 25)

I just noticed my "sex horm bind globulin" is the only thing out of range. It is actually low...but I have not idea what that means.

Johnny, just to address your question on SHBG ... The easy explanation is that there is less binding of testosterone taking place in your body when your SHBG is low, thus allowing more "free" testosterone. Makes sense, as you are over 3% on yours. IMO, you are in a ideal zone.

[Dukkit]

Im not running an AI or HCG .

Ive been on TRT for almost 4 years.

Only run an AI when I cycle cuz my gyno flares up.

But if all my levels return to normal during TRT then Im fine.

[steroid.com 1]

Just because the guru's you copy and paste have said little about this. and there is no standard lab test does not mean it is unworthy of our discussion.

Huh?

[JohnnyVegas]

Johnny, just to address your question on SHBG ... The easy explanation is that there is less binding of testosterone taking place in your body when your SHBG is low, thus allowing more "free" testosterone. Makes sense, as you are over 3% on yours. IMO, you are in a ideal zone.

Wahooo, something about me is ideal. The "ideal zone" may not be as good as the "highway to the danger zone", but I will take it!

So, I have learned from this thread that I am not the odd guy that doesn't need an AI...there are a lot of us. Good, the less drugs taken, the better.

[zaggahamma]

Huh?

doubt flats will mind me answering...he means a lot of your lengthy posts are copied and pasted from crislers site...I know some like that type of material and it does have benefits but I prefer hands on talk/sharing , etc.

[steroid.com 1]

doubt flats will mind me answering...he means a lot of your lengthy posts are copied and pasted from crislers site...I know some like that type of material and it does have benefits but I prefer hands on talk/sharing , etc.

Oh...okay.

I'm not the only one here who has used data and information from educated, experienced and trusted sources to the betterment of our discussion as it can dispel a lot of misinformation.

It's how I've taught myself.

[kelkel]

^^^Exactly. If information from trustworthy and relevant sources is available and is pertinent to the discussion at hand, then that's how it pretty much should be used, in conjunction with our personal experiences. Part of how we learn, right?

[Vettester]

As most of you know, I use both AI and HCG in my protocol. Over the years, I have paid close attention to how my body responds with different dosages on just about all of it.

GD made a comment in post #42 that IMO summarizes the opinions, thoughts and questions of this thread, as it was simply put, "BW never lies." I've stressed the importance of BW for years, especially to new members and beginners on HRT. I believe it is crucial to run labs every 3 months for the first year; maybe even 1-1/2 years, then at least 2x per year thereafter.

If an AI is not needed, then that's a great place to be. My philosophy while running a normal TRT protocol is to find the most optimal level of well being, while using the least minimal amount of compound. For me, I am at my best day in and day out when my serum levels are somewhere between 680 to *** on the 3rd day after my injection, and free test is at/around 3%. I have found that I can attain this with a minimal amount of AI (.025mg x 2/wk of Adex).

As far as HCG, that's just a personal preference. One doesn't need HCG to sustain a desired testosterone level, as that can be easily achieved by just administering some form of exogenous testosterone. To boot, if a patient's diagnosis is primary hypo, then there won't be too much benefit from a testicular standpoint. However, if you're like me, meaning secondary, and you can find testicular health benefits from administering HCG, then it should be something to highly consider.

I know the "nutometer" thing gets some laughs, but I kid you not, if for some reason I was given a choice and had to pick HCG monotherapy, or cypionate only, I would take the HCG without hesitation. In my experiences, I have done a month of just an HCG only protocol, and I know that I can produce a decent amount of endogenous testosterone while on it. In my case it is VERY painful without it, and frankly it's no fun waking up at 3:00 AM with the feeling that someone has a vise grip on my left testicle.

I like the benefits of having both options of cyp and HCG in my protocol, and I've played with it enough to find out what works best for me, and what keeps me fairly well balanced to where the other factors, like estrogen conversion are kept to a minimum. But, without running labs, everything is just speculation.

On a side note ... Speaking of balance ... The state of this forum is the BEST that I've ever seen it!! We have a HUGE amount of talent here, and a diverse range of knowledgeable minds. This is a GREAT place for anyone at any level to jump in and get 'factual' information relevant to all (and I mean ALL) variables that are associated with HRT and living healthier.

[PPC]

As most of you know, I use both AI and HCG in my protocol. Over the years, I have paid close attention to how my body responds with different dosages on just about all of it.GD made a comment in post #42 that IMO summarizes the opinions, thoughts and questions of this thread, as it was simply put, "BW never lies." I've stressed the importance of BW for years, especially to new members and beginners on HRT. I believe it is crucial to run labs every 3 months for the first year; maybe even 1-1/2 years, then at least 2x per year thereafter. If an AI is not needed, then that's a great place to be. My philosophy while running a normal TRT protocol is to find the most optimal level of well being, while using the least minimal amount of compound. For me, I am at my best day in and day out when my serum levels are somewhere between 680 to *** on the 3rd day after my injection, and free test is at/around 3%. I have found that I can attain this with a minimal amount of AI (.025mg x 2/wk of Adex).As far as HCG, that's just a personal preference. One doesn't need HCG to sustain a desired testosterone level, as that can be easily achieved by just administering some form of exogenous testosterone. To boot, if a patient's diagnosis is primary hypo, then there won't be too much benefit from a testicular standpoint. However, if you're like me, meaning secondary, and you can find testicular health benefits from administering HCG, then it should be something to highly consider. I know the "nutometer" thing gets some laughs, but I kid you not, if for some reason I was given a choice and had to pick HCG monotherapy, or cypionate only, I would take the HCG without hesitation. In my experiences, I have done a month of just an HCG only protocol, and I know that I can produce a decent amount of endogenous testosterone while on it. In my case it is VERY painful without it, and frankly it's no fun waking up at 3:00 AM with the feeling that someone has a vise grip on my left testicle. I like the benefits of having both options of cyp and HCG in my protocol, and I've played with it enough to find out what works best for me, and what keeps me fairly well balanced to where the other factors, like estrogen conversion are kept to a minimum. But, without running labs, everything is just speculation. On a side note ... Speaking of balance ... The state of this forum is the BEST that I've ever seen it!! We have a HUGE amount of talent here, and a diverse range of knowledgeable minds. This is a GREAT place for anyone at any level to jump in and get 'factual' information relevant to all (and I mean ALL) variables that are associated with HRT and living healthier.

Great post Vette. Love your approach.

[steroid.com 1]

Great post Vette. Love your approach.

You can say that again...!

[Vettester]

Great post Vette. Love your approach.

You can say that again...!

Means a lot coming from two of the very best that this place has ever seen.

[flatscat]

[QUOTE=gdevine;5917761]

What ever happened to considering the t to e ratio? we used to talk about that.[/QUOTE]

T to E ratios is not a measurement used by TRT Physicians in the know.

Optimal levels of each are more important.

Most men, especially those with age related Low Testosterone, will need an AI.

This is what you post after I asked for some discussion on my previous comments. Please re-read that. If this does not sound dismissive then I don't know what is. This board is not just about what the doc's "in the know" say. It is about critical thinking, questioning everything, original thoughts and ideas that should be debated and, some tried. Quoting studies and physicians has it's place here to be sure - but we tuck them away in many threads where they are difficult to find and use them in a way sometimes as gospel.

I will say one more time - there is more than one way to skin a cat, and just because some of us have been on for a while, and researched more than others, we should never word our advise as if it is the law. This is forgotten many times. When that happens there will inevitably be some guys that take that advise as if it came from a doctor, whether they have really researched and had their own thoughts on how to do things. We suggest here, we recommend here, but we should always strive for the members to research on their own, educate themselves, get to know their own body intimately and take their health into their own hands. The way we word our responses is critical.

This board is awesome - and everyone is here to help everyone else. And yes there are members that know more than others and are looked up to. We are on the leading edge of these types of discussions, but there are some who are trending towards doling out advise straight out of books or their own physician and what few studies there are - hell if that is what we are all about why do we need this board - just go buy a book or live in a search engine.

or, maybe I am totally off base - want to debate it? lol

P.S. - sorry op - this really is a great thread.

[zaggahamma]

Perfectly stated flats

[Vettester]

Flats, you made a lot of excellent points in your last post! Out of everything stated, you mentioned that, "There is more than one way to skin a cat." How true this is, and every member doing their research here should consider that in their pursuit to achieve optimal health.

As I stated in my earlier post, the state of this forum is at its best due to the BALANCE of knowledgeable minds here. IMHO, if a member doing their research here can combine the experiences (good and bad) from other members, along with the research of information taken directly from the success of doctors and clinics, or even anecdotal studies, then that member/individual has an excellent opportunity to make some wise decisions regarding their personal program.

Lastly, you made a good point, as we ALL need to be careful about the advise we give, in the fact that we are not doctors here, and the last thing I want is some guy telling his PCP that Vetteman08 has changed his protocol and that's the law. It is imperative indeed for members to fully research all corners of this forum, then make their appropriate decisions from there, or in essence ... They will find the different ways to skin their cat.

OP, apologies for getting off topic on your thread.