Question about my Arimidex dosage

**curryman** · 03-05-2012, 10:44 PM

I need some guidance with my Arimidex dosage.
My current TRT protocol involves 100 mg Test Cyp once per week, 250 IU HCG twice a week, and 0.5 mg AI twice a week with the HCG. My latest lab results showed a Total Test of 1100 and E2 of 12 (2-30).

TT= 1100
E2= 12

I want to get my E2 into the lower 20's. I'm unsure about what to do. Should I stop using the AI for right now? Or should I switch to 0.25 mg twice a week instead of 0.5? I'm currently experiencing a libido less than optimal, some ED, and general tiredness.

Overall, I want to know how much my dosage should be changed to get my E2 up to around 22 where it should be.

Thanks!

**JD250** · 03-05-2012, 10:54 PM

It seems that we are seeing this more and more where peoples e2 is too low, if you have blood work scheduled again in about 6 weeks I would be tempted to stop completely and see what happens. Did you ever test high for e2? What was your baseline? Also just out of curiosity....post up your stats too if you don't mind.

**curryman** · 03-05-2012, 10:59 PM

My baseline E2 was exactly 22 before. I began TRT about 8 weeks ago, and have been sticking to the 0.5 mg 2x a week. Should I stop the AI completely for now and see if anything improves (libido, morning wood, mood)? If I started to feel good after a while of not taking the AI, would it make sense to add back in 0.25 mg once or twice a week?

**bass** · 03-05-2012, 11:43 PM

based on your ranges you are at about half way, so i wouldn't stop completely, but cut back to 0.25 twice a week as you have noted. your total T is awesome based on 100 mg injection! when was your blood drawn after you Test injection? and what is the range for testosterone test?

**jamotech** · 03-05-2012, 11:58 PM

Originally Posted by bass

based on your ranges you are at about half way, so i wouldn't stop completely, but cut back to 0.25 twice a week as you have noted. your total T is awesome based on 100 mg injection! when was your blood drawn after you Test injection? and what is the range for testosterone test?

Exactly Bass, all about the ranges here, most guys that want to be in the 20's are going on a range of 3-70. OP, if your at 12 with a range of 2-30, thats pretty close to where you should be id think.

**Vettester** · 03-06-2012, 12:47 AM

IMO, I think JD's advise to stop and take labs in 6 weeks is the route I would take, or at least the route I would discuss with my doctor.

Also, IMO, I think the .25mg x 2/wk will be a good 'maintenance' dose to sustain whatever E2 level you're at. Reason being, .5mg x 2/wk is potent enough to lower you from 22 to 12 ... We know that dose will lower it. So, in theory, .25mg x 2/wk would probably keep you right at 12 or close thereof, and your desire to get out of the teens will just be prolonged.

E2 doesn't increase drastically/rapidly, so stopping for now and running labs in 6 weeks might end up being very beneficial. Who knows, don't limit yourself to just being in the low 20's. In my life, I've been at the basement, and I've been in the 40's. Truthfully, the low 30's give me the best libido and best overall well being, as opposed to the low 20's. Either way, keep an eye on it with follow up labs, you'll be fine.

Also, when did you run your labs in comparison to your injections? I suspect your endogenous production is fairly substantial as a result of your HCG .

**zaggahamma** · 03-06-2012, 03:43 AM

agree with jd and vette....

AI dose was too agressive from baseline e2 and you crashed your e2....exactly what happens when doc(s) use a "standard" dose and/or more than one compound introduced at once

**GFA** · 03-06-2012, 04:56 AM

Nice BW ranges.

What is your protocol? Crislers?

Fri HCG 250iu, Sat HCG 250iu, Sun Test?

This is what I am currently following. No AI yet.

**ecdysone** · 03-06-2012, 09:10 AM

I'd take the advice given in post #3

Like Vette said, there's no magic about being in the 20s - in fact I would argue that's a bad range because it would be so easy to 'crash' into much lower levels without much effort.
There's nothing wrong with higher numbers, and I've quoted studies showing that mid-30s are more "natural" with regard to longevity* concerns.
(*E2 is important for bone density)

You might also consider dividing your already modest test dosage into twice per week which would also help reduce any potential E2 production.

**JD250** · 03-06-2012, 09:14 AM

My thoughts were to stop completely and let your e2 rise a little, check it with blood work to confirm, then think about a maintenance dose if you need one at all.

I'm not sure about the ranges but if your having libido problems that you didn't have before I would consider pointing a finger at your e2 levels. I hope you're one of the lucky ones who doesn't need much if any AI to control e2.

**zaggahamma** · 03-06-2012, 09:45 AM

Originally Posted by JD250

My thoughts were to stop completely and let your e2 rise a little, check it with blood work to confirm, then think about a maintenance dose if you need one at all.

I'm not sure about the ranges but if your having libido problems that you didn't have before I would consider pointing a finger at your e2 levels. I hope you're one of the lucky ones who doesn't need much if any AI to control e2.

jd
What exactly r u unsure about the ranges

**Flier** · 03-06-2012, 10:09 AM

Never seen that range before. (Labcorp is 3-70. Quest is 10-50)
With that range and your base at 22, you were high.
What Test range are you working with? 350-1200?
Maybe your test is not as high as you think. 1100 on 100mg Cyp seems high on a -1200 range.

**zaggahamma** · 03-06-2012, 10:20 AM

Originally Posted by jpkman

jd
What exactly r u unsure about the ranges

Nm
After fliers post i reread and that range does seem odd and your latest would put u middle-ish

**bass** · 03-06-2012, 10:56 AM

guys, his e2 is not crashed! its about in the middle of the range, thats why i suggested cutting his AI in half to raise it a bit.

**zaggahamma** · 03-06-2012, 11:00 AM

Originally Posted by bass

guys, his e2 is not crashed! its about in the middle of the range, thats why i suggested cutting his AI in half to raise it a bit.

yeh i just noticed that...you ever see a range 2-30? i dont ever remembering seeing...the ones flier listed look like usual ranges

**Vettester** · 03-06-2012, 11:32 AM

Originally Posted by bass

guys, his e2 is not crashed! its about in the middle of the range, thats why i suggested cutting his AI in half to raise it a bit.

But cutting the AI in half will probably just sustain his current level where it's at. .5mg x 2/wk was dropping his E2, I can't see .25mg x 2/wk bringing it back up. If it does, it will be at a very slow rate. If he stops taking the AI completely, I doubt he will be back to 22 in one month, that's just speaking from experience.

jpk, this is similar to the discussion we had a few weeks ago, where everyone's ranges were different, but you asked if even that were the case, isn't ng/ml the same regardless of the ranges? Yes, serum measurement doesn't change. A gallon of gas = a gallon of gas, whether a car gets 30mpg or 20mpg. Although it doesn't state the measurement standard on the OP's E2, it would be presumed to be pg/ml. As Flier noted, Labcorp and Quest have different ranges, in fact, there is quite a variance if one looks closer at them. However, that doesn't change the fact that pg/ml are still pg/ml. So when your E2 is 52 with the Quest doctor, he will say the patient is "high", but the Labcorp doctor will say you're right in the range you need to be ... Is the Quest guy right because some administrator pulled a number out of thin air. The labs can debate their reference ranges all they want, but will that dictate us to follow their standards, or to rely on on our proven experiences?

That's one of the main reasons that this forum is as successful as it is. We gauge what "normal" is by our personal experiences. When the doctors told us that a 310ng/ml total serum score was "normal", no treatment was needed, the experiences of reality with all of us told us that they can call it "normal" all they want, but we know you feel anything but "normal" when your serum is that low. The same applies to this E2 assay. The "lab" can label their reference range to whatever value they want ... When did we start going by that? 52pg/ml is high no matter what reference range tells us it's "normal", and 12pg/ml is LOW just the same.

**bass** · 03-06-2012, 12:05 PM

Originally Posted by vetteman08

But cutting the AI in half will probably just sustain his current level where it's at. .5mg x 2/wk was dropping his E2, I can't see .25mg x 2/wk bringing it back up. If it does, it will be at a very slow rate. If he stops taking the AI completely, I doubt he will be back to 22 in one month, that's just speaking from experience.

jpk, this is similar to the discussion we had a few weeks ago, where everyone's ranges were different, but you asked if even that were the case, isn't ng/ml the same regardless of the ranges? Yes, serum measurement doesn't change. A gallon of gas = a gallon of gas, whether a car gets 30mpg or 20mpg. Although it doesn't state the measurement standard on the OP's E2, it would be presumed to be pg/ml. As Flier noted, Labcorp and Quest have different ranges, in fact, there is quite a variance if one looks closer at them. However, that doesn't change the fact that pg/ml are still pg/ml. So when your E2 is 52 with the Quest doctor, he will say the patient is "high", but the Labcorp doctor will say you're right in the range you need to be ... Is the Quest guy right because some administrator pulled a number out of thin air. The labs can debate their reference ranges all they want, but will that dictate us to follow their standards, or to rely on on our proven experiences?

That's one of the main reasons that this forum is as successful as it is. We gauge what "normal" is by our personal experiences. When the doctors told us that a 310ng/ml total serum score was "normal", no treatment was needed, the experiences of reality with all of us told us that they can call it "normal" all they want, but we know you feel anything but "normal" when your serum is that low. The same applies to this E2 assay. The "lab" can label their reference range to whatever value they want ... When did we start going by that? 52pg/ml is high no matter what reference range tells us it's "normal", and 12pg/ml is LOW just the same.

excellent post as usual Vette! yea i was thinking for the long term, and you are correct E2 takes a long time to bring the levels up.

**Vettester** · 03-06-2012, 12:11 PM

Originally Posted by bass

excellent post as usual Vette! yea i was thinking for the long term, and you are correct E2 takes a long time to bring the levels up.

bass, most of this is just going on my personal experiences, and what I've seen with other members. My thinking process might be off the mark, especially with the reference standards. I definitely encourage any clarification from anyone if they see this at a different angle.

**Herman Munster** · 03-06-2012, 12:15 PM

"Should I stop the AI completely for now and see if anything improves (libido, morning wood, mood)? If I started to feel good after a while of not taking the AI, would it make sense to add back in 0.25 mg once or twice a week?"

I would say absolutely too this - You seem to have an understanding of your sweet spot, that being the mid 20 range. Regardless of the lab ranges, where you are now is not optimal for your protocol. I would err on the side of caution, for me crashing or pushing my E levels down occurs much faster on Adex than allowing them to rise above an optimal range if I halted Adex.

Switching to .25 may not crash your E, this may be the proper dose for your situation. OR you may be an individual who does not need Adex at all. You started TRT w/ Adex, So your not completely sure how TRT would effect your E w/out Adex.

my .02

**ecdysone** · 03-06-2012, 12:30 PM

Originally Posted by vetteman08

Is the Quest guy right because some administrator pulled a number out of thin air. The labs can debate their reference ranges all they want, but will that dictate us to follow their standards, or to rely on on our proven experiences?

Vette, I'm not going to debate most of what you said and I apologize to the OP for taking this somewhat off topic, but just wanted to point out that lab ranges are what they are for a variety of reasons.

For estradiol, I believe all labs use RIA (radio immunoassay) or some type of IA (immunoassay) kit. My experience has been that IA kits will give different values depending on the immunoassay selectivity, which can vary appreciably from supplier to supplier. In addition, the "sensitive" assay is usually just one where the calibration range has been restricted to give greater precision at the low end of the assay.

Most labs then turn to the standard reference literature (most use a classic text by Tietz) to establish a "normal range." So even though each lab's assay might give a different value for the same sample, they often will use a similar reference range.

Now, the very large labs (LabCorp, Quest, etc) typically evaluate their assays periodically, often using a ±2 SD range and tossing out the outliers.

So while "pg/mL=pg/mL" there can easily be 20 to even 50% variations in ranges depending on how easily it is to measure that analyte. You will note for CBC's and for example sodium, all labs use just about the same range, whereas for hormones it can vary alot.

**Vettester** · 03-06-2012, 01:28 PM

Ecdysone, that is very informative, thank you for clarifying some of rationale behind establishing the standards. It's interesting to know this, because there are indeed some significant variances from lab to lab. One of my main problems though is that a lot of doctors hide behind these ranges as if they are the gospel. Whether Quest or Lab Corp, 10 or 12pg/ml on a E2 assay is not "normal". Anyways, it might make a good thread to discuss further ... My apologies as well to the OP for getting a little off topic.

**zaggahamma** · 03-06-2012, 02:54 PM

Also gives way to more "range" contraversy

**curryman** · 03-06-2012, 03:06 PM

I apologize for making an error with the E2 reference range. It is actually 3-70 like some of you have said (LabCorp). From what I am hearing, it seems that my E2 is pretty low on the range, and that it will take a while to get back up to the 20-30's range. What I will do now is stop taking the AI and see if symptoms improve within the next 6 weeks. At that point, I will be able to see my E2 levels and determine a maintenence dose, if needed. I agree it is possible to go thru TRT, especially at my conservative doses, without the need of an AI.

**kelkel** · 03-06-2012, 05:50 PM

Great thread and nothing was "off topic" in my opinion. Op we're glad you found the correct range. Now that your established as a bit low you need to watch for a spike in your E and the resultant problems that can come from it. It won't necessarily rise slowly. A thought would be to pick up a serm (Tamoxifen ) which will still allow your E to rise while blocking the receptors in your chest.

**JD250** · 03-07-2012, 01:15 AM

Great info in this thread

JPK, I was referring to the range being a little odd, now we know it was a typo.

It seems that some of us have been taking too much AI, it makes me think about my own protocol a little more, as soon as I'm done with this run of Deca I'm gonna try a smaller EOD SQ protocol without an AI, whats the worst than can happen for 6 weeks until BW? Just thinking outloud.

Ecdysone, thank you for the explanation.

**zaggahamma** · 03-07-2012, 04:57 AM

Originally Posted by JD250

Great info in this thread

JPK, I was referring to the range being a little odd, now we know it was a typo.

It seems that some of us have been taking too much AI, it makes me think about my own protocol a little more, as soon as I'm done with this run of Deca I'm gonna try a smaller EOD SQ protocol without an AI, whats the worst than can happen for 6 weeks until BW? Just thinking outloud.

Ecdysone, thank you for the explanation.

yes, i actually posted a few below what i said to you that after flier posting i went and reread and was also confused with the range

well, for all those with taking too much AI, I on the other hand was out of arimidex for about 3 months...i tried just lowered test dose and pinning twice a week (no bloodwork) but when i got back on arimidex a week and a half ago..i swear knee pain and back pain a whole lot better..goes to show how important bloodwork

**bass** · 03-07-2012, 12:52 PM

one of the symptoms i get with low e2 is dry wrinkled skin, when i crashed my e2 I looked like a prune, no joke! now I've been without AI for more than 2 weeks and skin still dry looking, but still feel better than when i was on AI, no nipple sensitivity, no bloating and none of the high e2 symptoms for that matter. still doing eod test/hCG 35 mgs/250IU. I'll be doing blood work within 2 weeks or so. we'll see!

**curryman** · 03-07-2012, 04:16 PM

I do notice the same symptom right now. My skin is a bit dry. Another symptom I have with the low e2 is tiredness during certain parts of the day. I'm not sure if this is due to the e2 for sure, but I am assuming this for right now based on what others have said. Also, since stopping the AI, I feel like anxiety has been reduced throughout the day. We'll see how things go in the next few weeks.