No noticeable changes after two weeks of HCG monotherapy - Am I impatient?

[Renholder]

Hello all,

I have bottom range levels of LH, FSH and testosterone , so I suspect secondary hypogonadism. I have been struggling with low testosterone issues consciously for three years now, probably at least for five years without knowing. I do not have a knowledgeable doctor, but at least I have found one who takes me seriously and is willing to issue treatment. He wanted to let me try testosterone right away, but I convinced him to let me try HCG monotherapy first.

I tried clomiphene therapy in the past with some success (LH rose and testosterone as well, but not much), but eventually my previous doctor cut me off fearing I might develop cancer. With the effects wearing off, I did not argue. I had the opportunity to try it one more time along with DHEA at the beginning of this year, but ended up feeling worse after two weeks, so I quit.

Now, after two weeks of HCG monotherapy (500 IU Monday, Wednesday, Friday), I still do not feel any relief. I am aware that the full effects probably will take some time to materialize, but I thought I would at least notice a change by now if it were working?

The truth is that TRT is the last thing I would voluntarily want, but seeing that I probably need it, I don`t want to postpone it any longer. I have accepted it. I feel that I have wasted the last three years of my life chasing dead ends and trying to find solutions that does not work, while at the same time missing out on what life have to offer. I`m tired of being tired.

I plan on taking bloodwork on the 18th, which would be 2 1/2 weeks after starting treatment. By then, there should be changes in bloodwork, right?

If I don`t feel any changes by the 18th, I think I will ask my doctor to get a prescription of Nebido on that day and inject right away.

Opinions?

Thanks in advance,

Renholder

[steroid.com 1]

I think you are being a bit impatient to be honest...you may need to give it at least 6 weeks for blood work and 2 to 3 months to see how you feel.

That being said, and I think you've come to the conclusion yourself, hCG mono-therapies are largely ineffective...but there are many variables that go into that beyond my response here.

You may want to consider having Dr. John Crisler consult with your Physician to put you on the right protocol. He does this for a small fee and it will educate your "willing" Doctor as well as making sure you are on the correct protocol.

Dr. Crisler really likes to put men on a daily cream/gel along with 100iu daily of hCG.

Read his website if you're interested.

I think when you see and feel how well you will be when you start your TRT protocol you will have wished you've started years ago. It's a small commitment but the health results so far out way the expense and inconvenience.

BTW, welcome to the community and keep us posted on next steps and progress in this thread; we like these types and you will get great guidance from the vets here as well.

gd

[ecdysone]

I am aware that the full effects probably will take some time to materialize, but I thought I would at least notice a change by now if it were working?

Well I think you have two issues here, so it's best to separate them.

(1) The effects of elevated testosterone [check out the sticky above] can take months to experience, often >3 months.

(2) However, whether the HCG is working is something you could measure after a few weeks by getting some labwork.

You should Goggle the "Shippen HCG protocol" and go from there.

[kelkel]

Well said by above 2 gentlemen:

Also, possibly consider adding Nolvadex to your HCG .

[Renholder]

I think you are being a bit impatient to be honest...you may need to give it at least 6 weeks for blood work and 2 to 3 months to see how you feel.

That being said, and I think you've come to the conclusion yourself, hCG mono-therapies are largely ineffective...but there are many variables that go into that beyond my response here.

You may want to consider having Dr. John Crisler consult with your Physician to put you on the right protocol. He does this for a small fee and it will educate your "willing" Doctor as well as making sure you are on the correct protocol.

Dr. Crisler really likes to put men on a daily cream/gel along with 100iu daily of hCG.

Read his website if you're interested.

I think when you see and feel how well you will be when you start your TRT protocol you will have wished you've started years ago. It's a small commitment but the health results so far out way the expense and inconvenience.

BTW, welcome to the community and keep us posted on next steps and progress in this thread; we like these types and you will get great guidance from the vets here as well.

Thank you for the warm welcome and the good advice.

I have already read a little bit on Crislers web page. Not sure if it would be possible to have my him consult with my doctor since I live in Norway, but with technology it may be possible.

I also read about HCG and I want to continue using that if I go on TRT. I`m aware that Crisler prefers gel, but personally I would like injections and it seems like most people prefer the injections and also have better success with them.

Here in Norway, Nebido is the standard treatment for injectable testosterone . Enanthate is possible to retrieve, but it`s not licensed, so I don`t think I want to push my doctor knowing how lucky I am to actually having found one who will let me try it. I was initially skeptical towards Nebido, but I`ve read a lot of good things about it after all, so I think it`s worth a shot, as long as my doctor is willing to let me take my next shot a little sooner than what the literature suggests if I need to do so.

I will keep you guys posted, no problem. Perhaps I should start another thread and write more including bloodwork or perhaps just add it here?

Well I think you have two issues here, so it's best to separate them.

(1) The effects of elevated testosterone [check out the sticky above] can take months to experience, often >3 months.

(2) However, whether the HCG is working is something you could measure after a few weeks by getting some labwork.

You should Goggle the "Shippen HCG protocol" and go from there.

Hello and thank you.

I have already read about Shippen`s HCG protocol, which is what convinced me about giving monotherapy a shot in the first place. According to him, if I remember correctly, blood work should be taken 2 weeks after the start of treatment, so I think that would be fine.

With regards to full effects of testosterone , I`ve heard that and it is part of why I`m "impatient". It is tough for me to wait 3 months now to see if HCG works and then possibly another three weeks to reap the benefits of exogenous testosterone if I decide to use that.

I really want my life back and I`m almost starting to become desperate. I fear that the lack of testosterone may affect important choices in my life negatively and most likely have already done so already.

With regards to seeing full effect of testosterone and the actual blood work, would it be correct to assume that my blood work could possibly show significantly elevated testosterone, but that it would take me some time to notice the effects?

Well said by above 2 gentlemen:

Also, possibly consider adding Nolvadex to your HCG.

Thanks.

I will need to do some more research on that. As an AI?

[HRTstudent]

You can't expect anything from long acting hormones in 2 weeks. That's just about the mark where I believe most people will start to see any changes.

Keep in mind, you may not notice the changes. Perhaps your spouse will notice first.

[kelkel]

No, it's not an AI. It's a SERM. It blocks E from binding to receptors in the chest but does not lower or otherwise control E levels. It will however stimulate LH/FSH production. Do some research on it. Read the profile on the front page of this site. Good luck!

[GFA]

I did HCG mono a long time ago and it brought my test from 300 to around 900 total (didnt have free or E2 back then) taking 500 iu, m-f. In a month you should see a difference in your BW. I do recall being horny all the time and getting erections very easily. If you are planning on having kids, you should stick with the HCG (or HCG along with test as many of the board members use currently).

There are no long term studies using HCG mono-therapy for TRT so who knows how your body will react to it over time. There are some studies that show high level HCG usage can potentially desensitize your testies to HCG. 500iu x3 a week is much lower than used in those studies.

Currently I use 100mg test cyp a week with 250 iu HCG 2x a week. I am making great strength gains in the gym and blew away my old bench max at the ripe old age of 41. I prefer test cyp over HCG mono because you know it works. Once you get a baseline, you know exactly how much is needed to maintain certain levels.

Also below is one of the reasons why Crisler says he prefers test over hcg mono. His patients using test have better subjective feelings using test over hcg mono.

Now, after two weeks of HCG monotherapy (500 IU Monday, Wednesday, Friday), I still do not feel any relief. I am aware that the full effects probably will take some time to materialize, but I thought I would at least notice a change by now if it were working?

[Renholder]

No, it's not an AI. It's a SERM. It blocks E from binding to receptors in the chest but does not lower or otherwise control E levels. It will however stimulate LH/FSH production. Do some research on it. Read the profile on the front page of this site. Good luck!

It is virtually the same as clomiphene, right?

I have access to clomiphene, but I`ve been told that combinining it with HCG may not be wise for some reason that I can`t recall right now.

Thanks.

[Renholder]

I did HCG mono a long time ago and it brought my test from 300 to around 900 total (didnt have free or E2 back then) taking 500 iu, m-f. In a month you should see a difference in your BW. I do recall being horny all the time and getting erections very easily. If you are planning on having kids, you should stick with the HCG (or HCG along with test as many of the board members use currently).

There are no long term studies using HCG mono-therapy for TRT so who knows how your body will react to it over time. There are some studies that show high level HCG usage can potentially desensitize your testies to HCG. 500iu x3 a week is much lower than used in those studies.

Currently I use 100mg test cyp a week with 250 iu HCG 2x a week. I am making great strength gains in the gym and blew away my old bench max at the ripe old age of 41. I prefer test cyp over HCG mono because you know it works. Once you get a baseline, you know exactly how much is needed to maintain certain levels.

Also below is one of the reasons why Crisler says he prefers test over hcg mono. His patients using test have better subjective feelings using test over hcg mono.

Thank you for your input.

Any reason you did go off HCG mono? Sounds like it was very successful for you. I`ve read about guys who function great on it and one guy I spoke to actually prefers it over TRT, shotting 750 IU twice per week.

I don`t plan on having kids in the immediate future, but I certainly do not want to close that door as I probably will one day. Using HCG should keep me fertile, right?

Regards,

Renholder

[Renholder]

Do I close any doors if I decide to go on Nebido as soon as the 18th this month and would it be stupid of me?

I`m thinking that bloodwork on the 18th, 16 days after my first HCG shot, would at least indicate if I`m responding at all to the treatment, although as been said already, it would probably take a lot longer to feel the full effects.

In theory and most likely in practice, there is no doubt that Nebido will increase my testosterone and alleviate my symptoms, which is why I`m extremely tempted to just get started with it.

If bloodwork from the 18th shows that I did have a response to the HCG monotherapy, then I know that I may have the opportunity to get off testosterone and see if I can function alone without it at a later time in my life.

The thing is that I feel this low testosterone state which have been going on for at least three years now, have already very negatively impacted my life. I have not had a serious relationship with a girl for the last three years, save random encounters. I simply do not have the libido or urge to pursue a relationship, which is terrible, because I really want one and I have had the chance multiple times as well, but had to kindly reject them because I knew it would not work. I quit my job as a carpenter, a decision that I probably would have done anyway, but I wonder if it would have been different if I actually had normal testosterone levels .

Right now, I have a lot of other stuff on my plate and I will be making some important choices that may very well affect my future greatly. I had to drop a few subjects this year as well, since I did not have the consistent energy or mental clarity that I needed on a daily basis. I fear the outcome if I have to face the future just functioning on will power, which have been the case for a long time now.

That`s why I`m tempted to simply get started and get a much needed relief. I`m reasoning that perhaps I could try to taper off testosterone at a point in my life where I`m in a better situation to do so, although I`m prepared that it`s probably for life.

Does that make any sense at all?

Would appreciate the input greatly. I can post my blood work if it is of interest, but total testosterone is 13.6 nmol/L or 391 ng/dL.

Regards,

Renholder

[GFA]

Thank you for your input.

Any reason you did go off HCG mono? Sounds like it was very successful for you. I`ve read about guys who function great on it and one guy I spoke to actually prefers it over TRT, shotting 750 IU twice per week.

I don`t plan on having kids in the immediate future, but I certainly do not want to close that door as I probably will one day. Using HCG should keep me fertile, right?

Regards,

Renholder

Couple of reasons

1. no long term studies
2. a few studies that show desensitization to HCG with high doses (maybe long term use can cause the same)
3. not covered by my insurance and its expensive from a pharmacy (ordering from India much cheaper)
4. I dont want kids anymore
5. test cyp is CHEAP. 1 vial lasts almost 5 months and costs 1/3 the price of 1 vial of HCG that only lasts 45 days

I prefer test cyp over hcg because I know it works and will continue to work.

[Renholder]

Couple of reasons

1. no long term studies
2. a few studies that show desensitization to HCG with high doses (maybe long term use can cause the same)
3. not covered by my insurance and its expensive from a pharmacy (ordering from India much cheaper)
4. I dont want kids anymore
5. test cyp is CHEAP. 1 vial lasts almost 5 months and costs 1/3 the price of 1 vial of HCG that only lasts 45 days

I prefer test cyp over hcg because I know it works and will continue to work.

Thanks for the input. Sounds reasonable.

I`m surprised that HCG is so expensive over there. Here in Norway testosterone is the most expensive by far. 5000 IU HCG costs me 12$ and lasts for over a month with current dosage.

Regards,

Renholder

[Brohim]

Ren if you are in Norway I would jump on Nebidio. You get a shot then another shot in 6 weeks. It is a better long-term treatment than HCG mono. Plus after the front loading shots you only take 1 shot every 10-12 weeks. Many guy's would prefer that option in the states but it is not available here yet. So I would take advantage of it if I were you.

[Renholder]

Ren if you are in Norway I would jump on Nebidio. You get a shot then another shot in 6 weeks. It is a better long-term treatment than HCG mono. Plus after the front loading shots you only take 1 shot every 10-12 weeks. Many guy's would prefer that option in the states but it is not available here yet. So I would take advantage of it if I were you.

Thank you, Brohim.

Jump on it, as in jump on it right away?

I have decided to try Nebido if I go on TRT, but as per my previous post I would like some feedback on whether it would be stupid to get started with Nebido right away and not give HCG more of a chance first.

[Renholder]

Do I close any doors if I decide to go on Nebido as soon as the 18th this month and would it be stupid of me?

I`m thinking that bloodwork on the 18th, 16 days after my first HCG shot, would at least indicate if I`m responding at all to the treatment, although as been said already, it would probably take a lot longer to feel the full effects.

In theory and most likely in practice, there is no doubt that Nebido will increase my testosterone and alleviate my symptoms, which is why I`m extremely tempted to just get started with it.

If bloodwork from the 18th shows that I did have a response to the HCG monotherapy, then I know that I may have the opportunity to get off testosterone and see if I can function alone without it at a later time in my life.

The thing is that I feel this low testosterone state which have been going on for at least three years now, have already very negatively impacted my life. I have not had a serious relationship with a girl for the last three years, save random encounters. I simply do not have the libido or urge to pursue a relationship, which is terrible, because I really want one and I have had the chance multiple times as well, but had to kindly reject them because I knew it would not work. I quit my job as a carpenter, a decision that I probably would have done anyway, but I wonder if it would have been different if I actually had normal testosterone levels .

Right now, I have a lot of other stuff on my plate and I will be making some important choices that may very well affect my future greatly. I had to drop a few subjects this year as well, since I did not have the consistent energy or mental clarity that I needed on a daily basis. I fear the outcome if I have to face the future just functioning on will power, which have been the case for a long time now.

That`s why I`m tempted to simply get started and get a much needed relief. I`m reasoning that perhaps I could try to taper off testosterone at a point in my life where I`m in a better situation to do so, although I`m prepared that it`s probably for life.

Does that make any sense at all?

Would appreciate the input greatly. I can post my blood work if it is of interest, but total testosterone is 13.6 nmol/L or 391 ng/dL.

Regards,

Renholder

Any input on this please?

I took bloodwork today and dropped by my doctor to ask him for a prescription on Nebido as I have pretty much decided on getting started, but he was not there today.

So, I`m going back on Monday unless some of you think it is a bad idea and that I should give HCG some time.

My main concern is TRT masking some other problem or that I actually have the potential to function on my own naturally, but if TRT does not close any doors, i.e., effect any irreversible change in my physiology, I think I need the relief right now and would rather try a re-start some time later.

I`ve been feeling slightly more horny lately, but that goes in cycle and have happened without HCG as well, so I`m not sure if there is a connection. Other symptoms like fatigue and lack of energy persists.

Thanks,

Renholder

[Renholder]

Any input on this please?

I took bloodwork today and dropped by my doctor to ask him for a prescription on Nebido as I have pretty much decided on getting started, but he was not there today.

So, I`m going back on Monday unless some of you think it is a bad idea and that I should give HCG some time.

My main concern is TRT masking some other problem or that I actually have the potential to function on my own naturally, but if TRT does not close any doors, i.e., effect any irreversible change in my physiology, I think I need the relief right now and would rather try a re-start some time later.

I`ve been feeling slightly more horny lately, but that goes in cycle and have happened without HCG as well, so I`m not sure if there is a connection. Other symptoms like fatigue and lack of energy persists.

Thanks,

Renholder

I`m sorry if I seem like a pain in the ass here, but I could really use the input.

It`s almost three weeks with HCG now and I don`t notice any changes in my body at all. Libido and erectile quality (morning wood the last days) have been better, but nothing more than during random fluctuations in the past. My body still feels like it`s 100 years.

I just talked to my doctor and he will prescribe Nebido. I will get it on Wednesday or Thursday.

Any reason not to get started with it?

Thanks very much,

Renholder

[kelkel]

Your not a pain, we just can't make the ultimate decision for you and we understand it's not easy as we've all been there in our own unique way. Consider I was cruising at a whopping 59 T level at one time. It would be great to have actually seen your complete BW so we could evaluate things a bit better. What does your doctor say about waiting a bit more? Or does he think it's time to jump into Nebido?

Whatever you choose, best of luck and keep us posted here. If you go the Nebido route update this thread with your protocol and how it goes for you, along with BW please. One day it will jump the pond and be available here and we need to hear all the personal experiences we can with it.

[Renholder]

Thanks, kelkel.

Not really asking for anyone to make a decision for me, but I would like input on if my current decision to start with Nebido seems reasonable or if should exhaust other options or give HCG more time. I certainly don`t feel it`s a premature decision, considering that I`ve been having issues for over three years now and visited many doctors with everyone saying I`m perfectly fine, except my current doctor who thinks my levels are low considering age and is willing to treat me. I`ve tried multiple natural remedies, clomiphene, I sleep well, eat healthy, far from overtrained and have a stress free life, so I don`t see what else I could do on my own.

Now, my fear is that I end up treating a symptom (low testosterone ) instead of the real problem, but considering that my bloodwork seems normal except for low testosterone , at least if I am to trust my doctors (which I don`t), I suppose I simply may have low testosterone and that`s it.

You ask about the input of my current doctor.

It was I who originally introduced the idea of HCG to him. He said he knew about the therapy, but I suspect he didn`t. When he was about to prescribe it, he said, "Oh, is it injections, maybe we`ll just start you on Nebido right away then." I then had to tell him that I wanted to see if my body could produce on it`s own. Earlier he have said that exogenous testosterone may kick start my natural production and he has never mentioned anything about fertility issues.

So, quite frankly, I don`t think his opinion or "expertise" matter at all. I`m just glad that I found someone who is willing to work with me. The decision is pretty much my own.

I`ll see if I can post blood work now in the next post.

Your not a pain, we just can't make the ultimate decision for you and we understand it's not easy as we've all been there in our own unique way. Consider I was cruising at a whopping 59 T level at one time. It would be great to have actually seen your complete BW so we could evaluate things a bit better. What does your doctor say about waiting a bit more? Or does he think it's time to jump into Nebido?

Whatever you choose, best of luck and keep us posted here. If you go the Nebido route update this thread with your protocol and how it goes for you, along with BW please. One day it will jump the pond and be available here and we need to hear all the personal experiences we can with it.

[Renholder]

March 2009

PS-T3-FREE: 3.8 pmol/l (2.6 - 5.7)
PS-T4-FREE 12 pmol/l (9 - 24)
PS-TSH 1.22 mU/l (0.35 - 4.70)
PS-ANTI-TPO <3 (0 - 15)

CORTISOL 264 nmol/L = 9.57 ug/dL
TESTOSTERONE 14.9 nmol/L = 429 ng/dL
ESTRADIOL <0,07 pmol/L = < 0.07 pg/mL
PS-FSH 2 ie/l (1 - 12)
PS-LH 2 ie/l (2 - 12)
PS-SHBG 36 nmol/L (13 - 60)
PS-PROLACTIN 145 ie/l (0-580)

August 2010

PS-T3-FREE: 4.6 pmol/l (2.6 - 5.7)
PS-T4-FREE 14 pmol/l (9 - 24)
PS-TSH 2.73 mU/l (0.35 - 4.70)
PS-ANTI-TPO <3 (0 - 15)

CORTISOL 748 nmol/L = 27.12 ug/dL
TESTOSTERONE 13.6 nmol/L = 391 ng/dL
ESTRADIOL <0,07 pmol/L = < 0.07 pg/mL
PS-FSH 2 ie/l (1 - 12)
PS-LH 6 ie/l (2 - 12)
PS-SHBG 17 nmol/L (13 - 60)
PS-PROLACTIN 145 ie/l (0-580)

22nd November (after using 25 mg clomiphene daily for 1 month)

Estradiol 0,10 (0,04-0,18)

FSH 3 (1-12)

LH 9 (2-12)

Testosterone 17,6 pmol/l or 507 ng/dl

SHBG 31 (13-60)

Now, I have never measured free testosterone directly at a lab, so assuming I could use the calculator at testim, it would read like this:

March 2009 - Free testosterone = 8.39 ng/dl

August 2010 - Free testosterone = 11.0 ng/dl

November 2010 (after one month of clomiphene) - Free testosterone = 11.1 ng/dl --> If my math skills are correct, serum testosterone increased by over 30%, but due to increased SHBG, free testosterone is pretty much unchanged.

October 2011 (after being off clomiphene for a while) = Free testosterone = 9.77 ng/dl

[Renholder]

Bloodwork from 27th of January 2012

T4-FREE - 18,2 pmol/l (11-23,0)
T3-FREE - 4,8 pmol/l (3,5-8,5)
TSH 1,6 mU/l (0,2-4,0)
ANTI-TPO 71 (<100) THIS WAS 29 ON THE LAST TEST.

TESTOSTERONE 13 nmol/L = 375 ng/dl
FREE TESTOSTERONE 10.5 ng/dL (Calculated with an online calculator using SHBG and total testosterone)
ESTRADIOL <0,06 pmol/L = < 0.06 pg/mL F
FSH 2 ie/l (1 - 12)
PS-LH 2 ie/l (2 - 12)
SHBG 17 nmol/L (13 - 60)
ZINC SERUM 9,9 (9,0-17,0) THIS ONE WAS AT THE LOW END OF THE RANGE?

DHEA 18,3 nmol/L (referance range for men aged 31-50: 6-18 nmol/L) Comments from the lab: Marginally above upper levels. High DHEA can be seen with tumors in the adrenal glands or defects in the adrenal glands steroid synthesis. CONTROL IS RECOMMENDED UNLESS THE PATIENT HAVE BEEN TAKING SUPPLEMENTS.

As I have been taking DHEA as a supplement, I suppose I`m safe.

[Brohim]

Thank you, Brohim.

Jump on it, as in jump on it right away?

I have decided to try Nebido if I go on TRT, but as per my previous post I would like some feedback on whether it would be stupid to get started with Nebido right away and not give HCG more of a chance first.

I would get blood work during your 6th week on HCG to see where you are. If you respond well to HCG you may be able to do Monotheraphy. However this might not work forever. Nebidio is a great alternative if HCG mono does not work out.

Does your insurance cover HCG therapy? If not Nebidio is your best bet!

[Renholder]

I would get blood work during your 6th week on HCG to see where you are. If you respond well to HCG you may be able to do Monotheraphy. However this might not work forever. Nebidio is a great alternative if HCG mono does not work out.

Does your insurance cover HCG therapy? If not Nebidio is your best bet!

I hope it`s not stupid, but I`m not sure if I have the patience to give it 3 more weeks considering my current condition and the fact that I notice nothing. From a practical perspective, taking a shot every 8-10 weeks is not something that will largely impact my life. If I can remain fertile and maintain the size of my testicles using HCG along with, I think I just want to get started right now.

I`ve been using 500 IE, Monday, Wednesday, Friday for monotherapy. I suppose my dose is not too small?

I`ve heard talk from you guys in the US about how expensive HCG is, but here in Norway it is dirt cheap and I can pay for it out of my own pocket. 11$ for 5000 IE. Testosterone is far more expensive, but our health system is different here in Norway, such that I will only pay a small charge of the complete cost if my diagnosis says that I need the medicine for my health and well-being. If not, I will pay out of my pocket, since I can`t afford to have poor health.

What do you (and others) think of my bloodwork? Is it reasonable to think that I can feel generally crappy with my levels?

Regards and thanks,

Renholder

[Renholder]

Guys,

I could really need the input here, as I`m essentially my own doctor and not a very good one at that!

I just got back from the doctor with a receipt on Nebido. I also got the bloodwork from the 18th of May, 16 days after the first shot of HCG . To my surprise, testosterone had increased substantially, but my doctor did not seem to think much of it and just handed over the prescription. Weird.

At the end of last week prior to blood work, I was feeling fairly desperate, as my symptoms of brain fog, fatigue, lack of energy and general tiredness was overwhelming. That`s why I rushed to get bloodwork. I took the last shot of HCG on Friday and the last days I`ve been feeling slightly better. Slight increase in libido and morning erections is the only improvement, but having happened even stronger in the past without using anything, it could be random. I do however think it could be due to increased E2, which I think have been on the low end in the past.

Disclaimer, I drank 5 beers the day before the blood work, but I hope it did not affect the blood work by too much. I`ve heard of estradiol spikes.

27th of January:

Total testosterone - 14 nmol/l (8-35 nmol/L) - 403 ng/dl
Free testosterone index - 6,7 (2,3 - 9,9)
Free testosterone - 11,3 ng/dl
SHBG - 17 nmol/l (8-60 nmol/l)
LH - 3 ie/l (2 - 12)
FSH - 2ie/l (1 - 12)
Estradiol - 0,06 nmol/l (<0,15 nmol/l) - Not sure how accurate this test is, having heard of sensitive tests in the US, but it`s the only one we got.
Prolactin - 165 mIU/L (45-375)

18th of May:

Total testosterone - 25 nmol/l (8-35 nmol/L) - 720 ng/dl
Free testosterone index - 20,2 (2,3 - 9,9)
Free testosterone - 23,6 ng/dl - This is calculated using an online calculator. Not sure if it`s the same as the free testosterone index on my lab report, but with different numbers.
SHBG - 13 nmol/l (8-60 nmol/l)
LH - <1 ie/l (2 - 12)
FSH - <1 ie/l (1 - 12)
Estradiol - 0,20 nmol/l (<0,15 nmol/l) - Not sure how accurate this test is, having heard of sensitive tests in the US, but it`s the only one we got.
Prolactin - 123 mIU/L (45-375)

Any thoughts on this bloodwork? What from here?

Could it be that the elevated E2 prevents me from enjoying the effects of the increase in testosterone? Should I give it more time? Or just go with Nebido?

Could it be that there is something else in my body that is causing me to feel like crap?

I`m on the run now, but I just wanted to put it out there and hopefully get some helpful advice on what to do next.

Regards,

Renholder

[steroid.com 1]

This is one reason why you may feel like you do: Free testosterone index - 20,2 (2,3 - 9,9)

Your Free Testosterone serum levels are through the proverbial roof!

There are many neg sides that can present when Free Test serum levels go supraphysiological and with the balance of your BW could be an indicator.

[Renholder]

This is one reason why you may feel like you do: Free testosterone index - 20,2 (2,3 - 9,9)

Your Free Testosterone serum levels are through the proverbial roof!

There are many neg sides that can present when Free Test serum levels go supraphysiological and with the balance of your BW could be an indicator.

Yes. What do you mean with the latter part of your last sentence?

Any practical advice from here?

[steroid.com 1]

Everything is about balance...in other words all serum levels being in the optimum range and one not more than the other.

When one serum level is out of balance to all others it tends to disrupt others in a cascading effect.

Strive for balance in the healthy physiological levels.

Dr. Crisler speaks volumes to the neg side effects of elevated Testosterone levels and seeing the, albeit limited, blood work you posted; Test levels are the only thing that sticks out as "out of balance" and could be why you feel like you do.

That being said, I would like to see a complete hormonal panel...what you posted is somewhat limited.

[Renholder]

Everything is about balance...in other words all serum levels being in the optimum range and one not more than the other.

When one serum level is out of balance to all others it tends to disrupt others in a cascading effect.

Strive for balance in the healthy physiological levels.

Dr. Crisler speaks volumes to the neg side effects of elevated Testosterone levels and seeing the, albeit limited, blood work you posted; Test levels are the only thing that sticks out as "out of balance" and could be why you feel like you do.

That being said, I would like to see a complete hormonal panel...what you posted is somewhat limited.

Allright, but can we assume that I did not reach these levels from one day to the other and that the increase was gradual? If so, should I not have at one point (prior to reaching out of range levels) have felt great? Or is that a flawed logic?

Because I have not at one point felt any relief after I started HCG .

I`m sorry, but I don`t have much else new blood work to post, except what I posted earlier.

[Renholder]

Anyone?

I`m considering giving Nebido a trial. I`ve heard about people with great numbers on HCG , but who do not feel any different while using it. Anyone heard of that?

I`m also working to see if I can get an AI somewhere.

[Renholder]

Anyone? Come on, now.

My doctor did not want to give me an AI now, nor can I get it OTC anywhere. He insisted that we try Nebido, so I complied and took my first shot on Friday.

I plan on getting blood work done this Friday, then at week 5 and then 8 weeks after the booster shot, provided that I continue using Nebido for that long.

If E2 is still high on the next BW or at least at week 5 and I don`t feel better, I will have to try and convince him to give me an AI.

FWIW, I still don`t notice much of a difference since I started down this road, but I do feel better compared to when I was on HCG 500 IU 3X weekly.

[Renholder]

Gentlemen,

I could need your advice and input here as I essentially act as my own doctor and I`m currently not sure how to proceed. Feel free to make a guess, if you`re not certain and afraid of giving advice because of that.

I took the Nebido shot last Friday in my thigh after not feeling anything from two weeks of HCG , despite of surprisingly elevated testosterone levels , both total and free. I currently do not feel anything noticeable. There was a day this week where I had a really full erection and decent libido and I may have been feeling a little more rested, but not more than possibly being random. Libido is not BAD, but it is not very good either and I do not have strong erections, save the one day, nor do I night or morning wood.

1) Is time still on my side or should I start getting "worried"?

2) Any chance I could have done something wrong when I injected? I injected in my thigh as deep as I could, but I did not push the needle all the way in. Literature suggests that the glutes is to be preferred, but I have read and talked to a lot of guys who use the thigh for self-injections.

3) When do I get blood work done? I did not get any this week. Next Nebido shot is due in 6 weeks.

4) Could the elevated E2 possibly be an issue? I thought I would notice the effects since the free testosterone was high, but can the elevated E2 still be a problem? If so, do I start with an AI immediately or do I wait and see if it goes down on it`s own?

Regards and thanks in advance,

Renholder

[Renholder]

I should mention that I now inject HCG 250 IU 3X weekly at night.

[Renholder]

Reducing dose to 200 IU 3X weekly now.

No comments?

[Renholder]

Friday:

Felt like shit and I wondered if I really was sick or if it was related to my hormones. Me and my friends had big plans for the weekend and I was depressed because I knew I probably would have to cancel. They convinced me to give it a shot, so I came late to the party, took a few painkillers and a few shots of vodka before starting to drink beer. Eventually felt a lot better. Took a relatively early night.

I took 200 IU HCG before going to bed.

Saturday:

Slightly hung over, but actually felt pretty good! The brainfog and nausea from Friday was gone.

Another party this day, with even more booze than the prior day.

Sunday:

Felt even better than on Saturday, although slightly hung over.

Good libido.

Monday:

Feeling pretty good. Mentally articulate. Libido fairly decent. After a long day at the office and skipping a meal, I did not feel in the best shape going to the gym, but I was in a really good mood despite having had a fairly shitty day at the office.

At the gym, for the first time in a long while did I not feel fatigued and burned out. I was actually considerably stronger from the last time, even when I have probably been on a calorie deficit for the last weeks. I say probably because I don`t count calories, but I have defintely been eating less than normal and very clean.

Ready to take on the world when going home, feeling very good and confident.

200IU HCG at bed time.

Tuesday (today):

Feeling like SHIT. Slept longer than I use to, which I partly blame the sunlight for, but I don`t think that`s the entire story since my state persisted.

My body feeling very heavy and kind of aching. Not just muscle soreness.

Strong brain fog (still have it now just before going to bed) and a lack of mental clarity. I almost feel dumb.

What the hell is going on here? Is it the HCG that I`m not responding well to? Because of E2 spikes perhaps?

It may be random, but I have experienced feeling better after drinking in the past. I know alcohol affects hormones, so perhaps some imbalances are fixed for a short while the day after.

Any ideas?

FWIW, I got new BW done on Monday. Should have the results by Friday or Monday at latest.

[HRTstudent]

it's been about 6 weeks right?

lets be frank here, HCG monotherapy doesn't work great for some people. it's really hit or miss actually. if I were in your shoes, I would give it 12 weeks (total) and evaluate how you feel compared to before you started and decide what to do then.

why exactly are you trying to avoid TRT/make it the last choice?

[Renholder]

it's been about 6 weeks right?

lets be frank here, HCG monotherapy doesn't work great for some people. it's really hit or miss actually. if I were in your shoes, I would give it 12 weeks (total) and evaluate how you feel compared to before you started and decide what to do then.

why exactly are you trying to avoid TRT/make it the last choice?

Well, HCG did raise my testosterone substantially, but I have a theory that the elevated E2 is what stops me from benefitting from it.

However, if you read the thread, you would also see that I injected my first shot of Nebido on the 25th of May, so I`m no longer avoiding TRT.

[Renholder]

I got back from the doctor right now and got a renewed prescription of Nebido, HCG and Cialis. I was prepared to persuade him to write me a prescription of Arimidex , but my E2 was half of what it was last time and back in range, so I did not even dare to ask. I probably don`t need it either.

Bloodwork looked pretty much the same, with testosterone being 1 point lower (not significant). I think my thyroid looks good, but I hope some of you can give me a pointer there. Cortisol was fairly high and actually marked of as significant with a comment from the lab, but my doctor did not want to do anything about it for now.

As for how I feel, I do not notice any significant improvements in any area. I have imagined my elevated E2 to be an issue, but it seems like that is not the case after all provided I can trust the new test (not a sensitive test). I am stronger in the gym lately, despite of being on a slight calorie deficit, so maybe something is happening.

I slept with a new girl this weekend, but my libido and EQ were not very good. That`s why I asked to get Cialis, which I intend on using 5 mg ED for one week and then EOD or 2,5 mg ED from there. Hopefully it will help with the EQ and from what I`ve read it can have AI effects as well.

Having read around about Nebido on this site, there are guys who don`t experience the benefits until months after their first shot, so I`m just going to stick with it and don`t spend too much time thinking about it from here. Next shot is due at 6th of July and from there I think I will inject with a 9-10 week interval.

I will post new blood work in the next post. Would appreciate some input, even if it`s only an uneducated guess.

Regards,

Renholder

[Renholder]

Here is the list directly written off my lab sheet. It is rather messy since it is written alphabetically and without saying what the numbers represent.

Insulin 18-173: 85
Alat <70: 50
Albumin 36-48: 44
Anti-TPO <100: 51
ASAT <45 - 62
CRP <5: 1
Ferritin 20-300: 58
Folat serum >5,7: 26,6
Free T4 11,0-23,0: 17,3
FSH <12: <1
Free testosterone index 2,3-9,9: 17,7 (down from 20,2 on the previous test)
Hb 13,4 - 17,0: 15,8
HDL-cholesterol 0,8-2,1: 1,6
Hematocrit 0,40-0,50: 0,48
Iron saturation 15,57: 19
Iron 9,0-34,0: 14,2
Iron binding capacity 49-83: 74
Copper serum 12,0-25,0: 14,4
Cholesterol 2,9-5,1: 4,1
Cortisol morning (blood) 250-750: 841
Creatinine serum 60-105: 80
LDL-cholesterol 1,2-4,3: 2,3
LH <12: <1
Magnezium serum 0,71-0,94: 0,85
Prolactin <700: 203 (123 on last test)
PSA <2,6: 0,5
Free T3 3,5-6,5: 6,5
Vitamin K 0,1-2,2: 0,2
Selenium 0,6-1,8: 1,7
SHBG 8-60: 13
Zinc serum 9,0-17,0: 15,1 (up from 9,9 on last test, have been supplementing since then)
Total testosterone 8-35: 24
TSH 0,20-4,0: 2,9
Vitamin D3: 79 (no range provided)
Vitamin A >0,7: 2,8
Vitamin B12 170-650: 689
Vitamin D 50-150: 79 (up from last test, but maybe I could supplement some more)
Vitamin E 14-50: 30
Estradiol <0,18: 0,10 (down from 0,20 on the last test, provided I can trust this test for it`s accuracy)

[Renholder]

I will add the values for testosterone if anyone is interested:

Total testosterone 8-35 nmol/l = 24 nmol/L or 691 ng/dl
Free testosterone (calculated with an online calculator): 0.769 nmol/L = 3.2 % OR 22.1 ng/dL = 3.2 %
Bioavailable testosterone: 18.4 nmol/L = 76.8 % OR 530 ng/dL = 76.7 %

[Renholder]

Anyone?

I notice that my T3 is top range. Hypothyroidism?