Nolvadex and DHT for gyno

[Razor]

Is there any evidence to support or show a reduction in DHT or a increase in DHT from using nolvadex . I am currently using a transdermal 5% DHT Gel and nolvadex to help with gyno and would like to know if one would interfere with the other or will they work synergistically with one another to help restore a natural balance of test to estrogen as well as they are both for eliminating Gyno. Since i am in recovery from an E2 estrogen crash im doing everything i can to pull it back together. This is the cream I am using. And the nolvadex from at-r.com
dhtcream.com

[Vettester]

Razor, I personally don't see where Nolva, or any SERM for that matter will have any "direct" affect on DHT. As you know, it will have a direct affect on the HPTA as an agonist for GnRH production -> LH/FSH ->, which will stimulate the leydigs with producing your endogenous testosterone . DHT is converted thereafter downstream via the 5A-reductase enzyme. E2, as you know is also a direct result from testosterone converting downstream.

So, it makes sense that you could see some increased DHT as a result of Nolvadex increasing your testosterone levels , but I don't know where there's a correlation with it having a greater impact on the DHT conversion process. There is a correlation with higher levels of DHT associated with patients on Androgel for TRT, as opposed to taking oil based injections like cypionate . Maybe there is some medical study out there that supports it, but I personally haven't seen anything.

IMO, the Nolva will be your friend as you rebound from the E2 crash. Without it, your receptors would be on overload, and that feeling sucks. You took the Letro protocol when you noticed the gyno symptoms, correct? After running the Letro, what did it do for you to help the gyno? Any changes?

[Razor]

Yes I did C_Binos gyno reversal through the use of Letro. It made the gyno go away like 95%. However I forgot to mention during this whole time I never had any blood or discharge from the nipple. I find that interesting, maybe you can shed some light on why or why not that did not happen.

You mention androgel , however I am taking Andractim DHT Gel so it is already converted into its final form, so there is no estrogen conversion or biproduct taking place if I am correct. This in turn I am rubbing 5% everyday 1.25% split up into 4 times a day to ensure optimal lvls, concentration and no wasting of the product. I have talked to Datbetrue and he as well used DHT cream/nolva combo when he was younger to reverse gyno.

I am hoping that in the furture if this works the way the manufacture says as well as what Datbetrue said people will have another option to reverse gyno without crashing there E2 and the Andractim is 30% stronger than Androgel based testosterone , so a sense of well being should be felt and I should start feeling it within a week or two. I just started treatment with Andractim yesterday. I plan on using it for 2-3 months.

As the site says 4 main benifits from Andractim Gel.
"Boosts sex drive and well being"
"Get rid of Gyno"
"Stronger than testosterone up to 30x greater affinity for androgen receptors than Testosterone."
"Does not convert to estrogen"

These are great if you ask me, what a better way to reverse gyno than those instead of nasty sides of letro at high doses at a total e2 freefall resulting in a collapse.

Interesting in your thoughts as always

[Vettester]

I don't think we've seen anyone on here using Andractim. I'll do a little research on it in the meantime. Maybe GD, Kelk, JP or some of the other guys have come across it at some point. It sounds (in theory) that it works in a similar way as the Androgel , and possible other transdermal applications.

If you are going to use it for 2 to 3 months, do you plan on running labs before you stop? I would highly encourage it, especially to see test, E2, DHT, LH/FSH, as well as everything else. I know you have that BIG pyramid of compounds sitting there, but I will stress that you hold off til you get this all straightened out.

[Razor]

I don't think we've seen anyone on here using Andractim. I'll do a little research on it in the meantime. Maybe GD, Kelk, JP or some of the other guys have come across it at some point. It sounds (in theory) that it works in a similar way as the Androgel , and possible other transdermal applications.

If you are going to use it for 2 to 3 months, do you plan on running labs before you stop? I would highly encourage it, especially to see test, E2, DHT, LH/FSH, as well as everything else. I know you have that BIG pyramid of compounds sitting there, but I will stress that you hold off til you get this all straightened out.

I was planning to run the labs in another month and then pre cycle to see if I would be ready for it. But yes I can hold off as you recommend. Whats interesting to be is the claims that Andractim can and would reverse gyno where is Androgel makes no claims and would and cannot do that. Is that because the Andractim is in its final form of DHT where Androgel or the patch is not and still needs to be converted?

I will be exited to see my E2 in a month of Andractim/nolva together

Seems that applying DHT directly on the extrogen sites has a major effect on the buildup and receptors in reversing and eliminating it.

[mockery]

off topic but on topic i just went to the dr cause i had a very sore to the touch only area that had pain simplier to a ingrown hair .. went to the clinic in 5 minutes.. dr says its just lots of scar tissue on my chest and i need a massage.. but that one area still sting, maybe its a small tear. gonna get letro tomorrow just in case. Kinda let down if i got gyno from my trt and have been using ar-r liquit stane eod 12.5 since march and still get gyno with estrogen levels in check. I hope my paranoid gyno mind is wrong, the doctor seems to know alot about it but said i should be fine.

[Razor]

off topic but on topic i just went to the dr cause i had a very sore to the touch only area that had pain simplier to a ingrown hair .. went to the clinic in 5 minutes.. dr says its just lots of scar tissue on my chest and i need a massage.. but that one area still sting, maybe its a small tear. gonna get letro tomorrow just in case. Kinda let down if i got gyno from my trt and have been using ar-r liquit stane eod 12.5 since march and still get gyno with estrogen levels in check. I hope my paranoid gyno mind is wrong, the doctor seems to know alot about it but said i should be fine.

Well definitely keep us posted and look into that Andractim DHT transdermal as a possible easier and better way to get rid of gyno than high doses of stane or letro. I would not want anyone to have to go through what I did. Like I said before a very smart man like Vett named Datbetrue turned me onto it and it worked for him.

[mockery]

i just went to a dealer and got adex, i dont like adex but changing compounds might help. My ar-r stane's keep crashing and even mixing it before dosing im not sure if im getting a good amount. even with positive blood work.

I got my adex in a alcohol solution's this time to try something different. I love ar-r im not bashing them or saying this is their fault

[Razor]

I would not recommend Adex for gyno reversal, but more preventative. I have 6 bottles of Stane from Ar and would rather mess with that because Adex lowers HDL and raises LDL, and I naturally have Low HDL so I have to stay away from it. When I was crashing my E2 I was running 38mg of stane ED for a week to crash it. Then I tapered off that and got on the letro per C_Binos instructions. Not fun, not fun, I am hoping Nolva and Andractim will be a easier more productive and easier solution for everyone once I run it for a while and if I get positive results.

[SEOINAGE]

This could be interesting, never heard of elevated levels of DHT reversing gyno, but if you are on to something could be interesting. Unfortunately I don't think any of these tricks will work for gyno that is years old, otherwise I would give it a shot, although I might as well before getting surgery, that's on hold till my bodyweight is more stable, and bodyfat is close to where I want to keep it.

[HRTstudent]

Blood work confirmed I had high DHT and it did nothing for my gyno.

The nolvadex , on the other hand, would certainly help with someone's new gyno.

I do believe higher DHT could make one's overall appearance more masculine however, and that would make the gyno "seem" worse, but the tissue would be unaffected to any significant matter - that's my opinion.

[Razor]

I should change the title to Nolvadex and DHT Cream for gyno..I know having high DHT would do nothing for receptor sites around the nipple, but applying a Topical trans dermal DHT gel to the surface of the affected area is completely different approach.

[Vettester]

I was planning to run the labs in another month and then pre cycle to see if I would be ready for it. But yes I can hold off as you recommend. Whats interesting to be is the claims that Andractim can and would reverse gyno where is Androgel makes no claims and would and cannot do that. Is that because the Andractim is in its final form of DHT where Androgel or the patch is not and still needs to be converted?

I will be exited to see my E2 in a month of Andractim/nolva together

Seems that applying DHT directly on the extrogen sites has a major effect on the buildup and receptors in reversing and eliminating it.

Razor, if you can run labs in another month, then by all means run them. The more the merrier when going through something like that.

Interesting info on the effect of DHT with your efforts to reverse the gyno. Like SEOINAGE, I've never really encountered any studies about DHT having that type of impact on gyno. I would presume it's got to hinge on something with effecting the normal channel of E2 conversion, but that's just speculation at this point.

off topic but on topic i just went to the dr cause i had a very sore to the touch only area that had pain simplier to a ingrown hair .. went to the clinic in 5 minutes.. dr says its just lots of scar tissue on my chest and i need a massage.. but that one area still sting, maybe its a small tear. gonna get letro tomorrow just in case. Kinda let down if i got gyno from my trt and have been using ar-r liquit stane eod 12.5 since march and still get gyno with estrogen levels in check. I hope my paranoid gyno mind is wrong, the doctor seems to know alot about it but said i should be fine.

I'd be curious what your E2 sensitive score is at the moment? Letro is really the only known AI that can help with gyno, as it will inhibit 98% to 99% of the estrogen in your body. Even with that said though, there's no guarantees. If you catch it early on you stand a better chance. However, Letro doesn't come without a price. Razor can probably share some recent stories. It will have your E2 at < 1.0 in just a week if you taper up to 2.0mg or 2.5mg. If you haven't read C Bino's thread about Letro & Gyno, then it will be highly beneficial that you do ... http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...now-about-GYNO.

[Razor]

Mock have your run a full hormone panel or E2 Sensitive test lately. I would do that asap, Vett gave me this so ill pass it along, results get emailed to you within 3 business days after the test
http://www.privatemdlabs.com/lab_tes...4&search=#1001

Possible gyno symptoms
Sensitive nipples
Blood or discharge from nipples
Lump right under left or right nipples or both

C_Binos thread is very good, but letro is very harsh, before doing anything get labs done. The way he has you run it is a suicide run, you will crash and takes a while to come out of it and you have to watch for rebound gyno after off, so nolvadex is still needed. IM still crashed and been off the letro for a week.

During an E2 freefall crash side effects are the following
No libido, No energy, muscle cramping, extreme muscle cramping, fatigue, headaches, bodyaches, joint stiffness/pain, heart pain, chest pain
loss of motivation, low self esteem, low self worth, fragile, improper thinking about what is going on, not your own thoughts
Fragile nails and hair, no growth, complete shutdown of a healthy way of life
Try to avoid if all possible.

Atomi and I came up with this protocol. That is less harsh that C_Bino letro run
http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...o#.UDCKcJ1lTYg

Last treatment and could be the final and best answer with least side effects and no E2 crash involved is Nolvadex and Andractim 5%, this actually could make you feel better not worse.
That's why it looks so promising to me for a few reasons as Isaid before Datbetrue used it and it worked for him, the concept makes sense and its not a suicide run like the other two. Ordering it takes a full 2 weeks from the day you order to your front door. So be aware of that, comes from Europe and includes a PSA Free Testing Kit. I tried to get some from my doctor or a pharmacy to compound it, not goint to happen. Just order it from dhtcream.com and save yourself the DR. Appointment and headache of it.

Nolvadex 40/40/20/20
Andractim 5% ED 3 Months
Dosing 1.25% four times a day


My gyno was bad and didn't have the DHT cream till yesterday due to not finding out about it till 3-4 weeks into two different treatment plans so, I could not wait and I didn't want it to get worse so I have had too run all three of these treatments, however that might not be necessary for you or anyone else.
Gyno is tricky, stubborn and relentless. So you have to be prepared for a long uphill fight and many different option and angels to look at, but it is beatable if caught early and the lumps do not harden. I think if you start one of these treatment plans within 2-4 weeks of first symptoms you have a reasonable 80-90% chance of beating it for good.

All research chems used were from Ar-r .com
Liquid Stane
Letro
Prami
Nolvadex

[mockery]

the sore spot that stings to teh touch, only sore if i find it and poke it.. no redness or puffiness is 3 fingers to the left of the left nipple at 1400 if a clock face was tattooed on my chest The dr. spent about 7 minutes checking each nodule of scar tissue in my pecs. was very good " i think" most dr would be like you better go see a specialist... 9 months later.

[kelkel]

Subscribed Razor and very interested in your results. I just went to the website http://www.andractimgel.com/gynecomastia/ and read up on it's claims of a 72% success rate. Impressive if true and the combination with nolva and a localized DHT approach makes sense. DHT in and of itself is a natural estrogen antagonist on three different levels btw. Interesting to note, like Vette intimated with transdermals, when I was initially on Agel my dht level went through the roof. Switched to injections and in a month it came down to acceptable levels.

Here's an interesting read on Nolva and gyno also: http://jcem.endojournals.org/content/96/1/15.full

Keep this thread updated!

[Razor]

Subscribed Razor and very interested in your results. I just went to the website http://www.andractimgel.com/gynecomastia/ and read up on it's claims of a 72% success rate. Impressive if true and the combination with nolva and a localized DHT approach makes sense. DHT in and of itself is a natural estrogen antagonist on three different levels btw. Interesting to note, like Vette intimated with transdermals, when I was initially on Agel my dht level went through the roof. Switched to injections and in a month it came down to acceptable levels.

Here's an interesting read on Nolva and gyno also: http://jcem.endojournals.org/content/96/1/15.full

Keep this thread updated!

Did your PSH go up when your DHT went up?

[kelkel]

Not that I remember. And I was getting BW every 3 months at that time period.

[Razor]

Not that I remember. And I was getting BW every 3 months at that time period.

Ok good to go