TRT and the Point of No Return

**junk2222yard** · 10-16-2012, 11:56 AM

I have been on TRT for 2 months... my doc seems reasonably knowledgeable, especially considering I am in Canada. He is not an expert however, and sometimes I do have to bring in the research to get things tweaked. But he is reasonably open to it.

We have been trying to dial in my dosing, and next appointment (in a couple days) we will be adding hCG to the mix. (Currently I am on Test E. 2x/week and 1/24th of a Femara pill EOD. Yes you read that right, 1/24th of a pill!) About 3 weeks in, I felt amazing for a few days. Thought I hit the jackpot, and all of the poor folks I read about that can't get it right were suckers. I had night wood and morning wood like I haven't since high school, high libido, felt greater strength and a got a great pump in the gym, had a terrific sense of well being. Then it all went out the window. (Likely as my E2 skyrocketed.) And I realize how complicated this is, and I was the sucker, not everyone else.

Anyhoo, I seem to be getting back on track, but who knows if I will ever hit the sweet spot again like I did? And if I don't, or can't, and the improvements I feel are marginal, I may decide it isn't worth the effort of repeated doctor visits, drawing blood, jabbing myself with various chemicals, charting everything out, etc., etc., just to feel so-so. So......

When is the point of no return? I am a 42 year old male, with legit hypogonadism (in the low/normal Free T range), who has never dabbled in steroids , who works out and eats a reasonable diet yet is still fat, who wants to know when I can safely decide "this ain't for me" and still get back to where I was? I told my wife I am trying this out for 6 months, and my doctor confirmed that this time frame is not too long to "get me back where I was" should I pull the plug. Is he right?

I understand that everyone is different, and it is impossible to pinpoint a clear "tipping point". That said, any informed opinions and ballpark guesses are appreciated.

Thanks,
Junk

**Times Roman** · 10-16-2012, 12:02 PM

I never really thought about it as i did my research ahead of time and was all in from day one.

there really is no tipping point. the longer you go, the more difficult it is to recover. that's about all i can say

**bass** · 10-16-2012, 12:04 PM

in my opinion 6 months is pushing it. 3 months would be the longest i'd stay on if i plan to get off for good. you will need hCG , Nolva and Clomid to hick start your own production, and you have to do it right. PCT section would be your best place for guidance.

**fit2bOld** · 10-16-2012, 12:11 PM

I would have to agree with Times and Bass. The sooner the better if you choose not to be treated. If you are ok with the way you felt in the low/normal range and find that it is a better choice for you by all means.

**pjbandit** · 10-16-2012, 01:05 PM

Would you guys still say 6 months is pushing it if you have been on hcg with the trt the entire time?

**steroid.com 1** · 10-16-2012, 01:20 PM

IMO if you are hypogonadal and have all the symptoms you need to have some patients and get dialed in and you will feel better and you will live longer.

If not, and you decide to go off, the symptoms of your hypogonadism will only get worse as you age as will all the health risks associated with it...and who wants that?

**steroid.com 1** · 10-16-2012, 01:21 PM

Originally Posted by pjbandit

Would you guys still say 6 months is pushing it if you have been on hcg with the trt the entire time?

If a man has been on HCG from the start and they are not Secondary they can almost always get re-started...timing is age related.

**pjbandit** · 10-16-2012, 01:24 PM

The reason why I am considering getting off in the future is I would like to have kids some day in the next 3-5 years. Been on trt probably the last 5 months and hcg almost the entire time maybe 1 less month.

can't ever get a straight answer on whether this will keep me fertile, and maybe there is no straight answer but would like to stay on but not at the risk of not being able to have kids someday

**pjbandit** · 10-16-2012, 01:28 PM

Originally Posted by gdevine

If a man has been on HCG from the start and they are not Secondary they can almost always get re-started...timing is age related.

Gdevine that's an answer I was looking for. I was not diagnosed secondary but what tests can I run next bw to confirm That myself? Will running the tests while on trt void any results at this point?

**Brazensol** · 10-16-2012, 01:32 PM

Even if you never hit the sweet spot again, staying permanently low on T can lead to many other health issues that you would probably rather skip. Keep researching and find a protocol that works best for you. I have been on trt since May (started with gel, moved to injections in July) and never hit that jackpot you felt and am still searching for my sweet spot! But I am not about to give up because things are getting better. For some it is just a slower process. Hang in there would be my advice! If no one has already mentioned it make sure you get your thyroid checked as hypothyroid symptoms are almost identical to low t and it is very possible you have both issues.

**steroid.com 1** · 10-16-2012, 01:38 PM

Originally Posted by pjbandit

Gdevine that's an answer I was looking for. I was not diagnosed secondary but what tests can I run next bw to confirm That myself? Will running the tests while on trt void any results at this point?

If you are taking HCG and your testes are same size and you don't present any symptoms of atrophy than you really don't need to test anything...it's working.

Fertility tests would prove that out but do you really want to go through all of that hassle???

**pjbandit** · 10-16-2012, 02:23 PM

Originally Posted by gdevine

If you are taking HCG and your testes are same size and you don't present any symptoms of atrophy than you really don't need to test anything...it's working.

Fertility tests would prove that out but do you really want to go through all of that hassle???

No, so you are saying hcg enough to keep fertile then while on trt? Even if I am on trt for years? Balls are same size. Atrophy started in that first month but since I got on hcg balls are normal.

Meant to say to check my thyroid to definitely rule out secondary hypo?

**bass** · 10-16-2012, 02:48 PM

GDevine, in case you missed it, this thread has been hijacked and you been responding to pjbandit not the OP. just in case you though these questions are coming from the same guy.

**junk2222yard** · 10-16-2012, 02:56 PM

Originally Posted by Brazensol

Hang in there would be my advice! If no one has already mentioned it make sure you get your thyroid checked as hypothyroid symptoms are almost identical to low t and it is very possible you have both issues.

Yes, I have both issues. When I started TRT, though my TSH and T4 were "ok", I had T3 issues:

T3: 3.9 (3.8-6.0 pmol/L)

Though my T3 is higher now, my body temperature is still very low, and I am not losing fat although I am eating healthy and working out. (It was a rapid weight gain and strength loss at the gym that prompted me to see the doc, suspecting low T, to begin with.)

**pjbandit** · 10-16-2012, 03:33 PM

Originally Posted by bass

GDevine, in case you missed it, this thread has been hijacked and you been responding to pjbandit not the OP. just in case you though these questions are coming from the same guy.

Was not trying to hijack thread, just made me think of question pertaining to original topic started.

**bass** · 10-16-2012, 03:36 PM

Originally Posted by pjbandit

Was not trying to hijack thread, just made me think of question pertaining to original topic started.

no worries bro, just wanted to make sure GD was addressing the right guy.

**bp2000** · 10-16-2012, 03:41 PM

Originally Posted by junk2222yard

Yes, I have both issues. When I started TRT, though my TSH and T4 were "ok", I had T3 issues:

T3: 3.9 (3.8-6.0 pmol/L)

Though my T3 is higher now, my body temperature is still very low, and I am not losing fat although I am eating healthy and working out. (It was a rapid weight gain and strength loss at the gym that prompted me to see the doc, suspecting low T, to begin with.)

If you have high TSH (which you do) it can lower Testosterone . If fact many guy's that address the thyroid issues can remedy their T problem.

**bk13332** · 10-16-2012, 03:48 PM

Originally Posted by gdevine

If a man has been on HCG from the start and they are not Secondary they can almost always get re-started...timing is age related.

Gdevine,

If I’m permitted to ask and by no means an attempt to hijack…if a guy was secondary hypo would it be easier or more difficult to re-start?

**Brazensol** · 10-16-2012, 05:27 PM

Originally Posted by junk2222yard

Yes, I have both issues. When I started TRT, though my TSH and T4 were "ok", I had T3 issues:

T3: 3.9 (3.8-6.0 pmol/L)

Though my T3 is higher now, my body temperature is still very low, and I am not losing fat although I am eating healthy and working out. (It was a rapid weight gain and strength loss at the gym that prompted me to see the doc, suspecting low T, to begin with.)

You need to get your RT3 checked. If it is high it can keep your T3 down. T3 is the more active of the thyroid hormones by far. T4 is mostly storage for conversion to T3. Even after starting T cyp I could not lose weight. It wasn't until I started Armour Thyroid that the weight started to come off. I have been slacking at the gym almost 3 weeks now and I am still losing weight just by not over eating. Amazing!

**HRTstudent** · 10-16-2012, 06:25 PM

People come off after years. Hell, people abuse androgens at massive doses for years and still are able to recover. There are not huge studies done on this for obvious reasons, but there are tons of case reports in the literature.

If you're debating coming off after 6 months then so what, its worth it IF you felt better before or you felt the same even. I'm thinking about trying life off TRT in the future as well, and it will be over a year...

**junk2222yard** · 10-16-2012, 06:26 PM

Originally Posted by Brazensol

You need to get your RT3 checked. If it is high it can keep your T3 down. T3 is the more active of the thyroid hormones by far. T4 is mostly storage for conversion to T3. Even after starting T cyp I could not lose weight. It wasn't until I started ...!

Thanks for the input! I am in Canada, and they don't offer a Reverse T3 here unfortunately. My T3 is higher now, but I am not sure if it is optimal. I am gaining weight instead of losing, even with gym-time and eating well, so I do suspect Thyroid still.

I have put my whole story and all lab results in this thread: forums.steroid .com/showthread.php?515430-New-Guy-Lab-Results-Thyroid-Issues-Canadian

I didn't want to pollute this thread (where I ask a specific question, which has been answered) with my own personal story.

**steroid.com 1** · 10-17-2012, 11:04 PM

Originally Posted by bk13332

Gdevine,

If I’m permitted to ask and by no means an attempt to hijack…if a guy was secondary hypo would it be easier or more difficult to re-start?

There are many variables that come into play to correctly answer that question.

Once HPTA is compromised (the longer the term the harder it is) for some men it can be very difficult if not impossible to re-start.

Age seems to play a big role in this whereas older men have the most difficult time and younger guys a much easier re-start.

Thinking here is the number of active receptors on the testicles...but it's speculation.

It's just smart to always include HCG into any HRT protocol for all the right reasons notwithstanding re-start potential.

Primary men can never be "re-started" as thier testicles are not functioning anymore.

Secondary men have a chance of being re-started because thier Hypogonadal state is not due to disfunctioing testicles.