21 Years Old - ADVICE NEEDED :)

**21yearsold** · 10-25-2012, 08:55 PM

Hey Guys!

Thankfully I am doing the below cycle because of a diagnosed condition of Low T WITH a prescription for all this. I am going to start this next Tuesday/Wednesday but let me give you a little history:

I started by finding out I had low T (See my 1st post in New Members). Got prescribed by an Endo for .75 cc bi-weekly. Found out this wasn't enough AND some could aromatize so I went to Kingsberg Medical. They are going to start me on the below. Before all that, in March-ish 2011 I took 2 days of T3 40mcg/day and 4 days of Clen 80mcg/day. Also took GHRP-6/CJC-1293 at 80ishmg? for about 3 weeks (RUI). Had all the T3/T4 Free/Total levels checked and they're fine. But I've gained 30ish lbs over the past year. Gonna also LEGALLY start a GHRP-6/Semerolin cycle here soon once I have the money as it's all Outofpocket no insurance covers it.

24 Week Testosterone Program
Testosterone Cypionate (Watson Brand)
Protocol: 200mg/1 ml weekly 2(10ml) vials
Anastrozole (20) .05MG capsules
Tamoxifen (20) 11 MG capsules
Protocol: Take 1 capsule one time per week
B-12 Cyanacobalamin (1) 1000mcg / 30ml vial
Protocol: one injection of 1 ml / 1000mcg per week
HCG (1) 5000 unit
Protocol: 250 units 2 x per week

Post Cycle Starts 2 weeks after last IM
HCG (1) 11000 unit vial
Protocol: One injection of 1000 units for 10 days
Clomiphene Citrate (30) 51mg capsules
Protocol: One capsule 2 X per day

ANY EXPERT/GOOD/EXPERIENCEDadvice would be WELCOME!

Thanks!

-21

**MickeyKnox** · 10-25-2012, 09:00 PM

Be patient and someone will be with you shortly. There are some of the best pros anywhere on the net in here. They'll give you the best advice and suggestions base on your information. Youre in the right spot bro.

Good luck.

**steroid.com 1** · 10-25-2012, 09:06 PM

Welcome to the forum, you are amongst friends!

Well, for starters, there is no "cycling" in correcting low testosterone serum levels so if this is being prescribed by your Physician you have a problem already.

You are a 21 year old male with low testosterone levels and that my dear friend is not normal...something pathological is causing it.

Or, your low serum levels could be caused by this: "in March-ish 2011 I took 2 days of T3 40mcg/day and 4 days of Clen 80mcg/day. Also took GHRP-6/CJC-1293 at 80ishmg? for about 3 weeks (RUI)".

What was the final medical diagnosis for your low testosterone serum levels?

Are you Primary or Secondary hypogonadal?

Can you tell us more about you and can you post your blood work with ranges here in this thread?

I would like for you to research what happens to your HPT Axis when you start with exogenous testosterone and understand what you need to do to re-start if you are Secondary Hypogonadal. Read the HCG sticky, it will help you some.

Somethings not right here.

**21yearsold** · 10-25-2012, 09:13 PM

OK-

So when I first tested, it was during the afternoon and I had drawn a 273 ng/dl. This was on a very low scale of 290 ng/dl - 1080 ng/dl. The Docs freaked and sent me to Endo. I went to Endo and they told me I should get ANOTHER test done, but in the morning as your test levels peak then. The entire week leading up to the Endo appt. I was jacking it/having sex and trying to take all-natural test boosters as much as I could cause... Well that's embarrassing honestly. Specially at 21. When I went that morning after the appt., I tested at 390 ng/dl at the same lab. As a result of THAT, they classified me as Secondary. They prescribed me at .75 cc of 200mg/ml Cyp bi-weekly and mentioned it would probably be at least 2 years until I would be normal again. They gave me the first shot on 10/9/2012. I did some more research and found Kingsberg Medical. They taught me about excess test and how it aromatizes. They also mentioned that the dosage I am on will only be good to get me up to the 500 ng/dl range (something that my original endo had also said/confirmed). After looking at hours and hours of charts I'm convinced at 21 I should be in the 800-1000 range. They also confirmed that. I went off program and took another .75 cc last Tuesday and will be receiving the materials listed above this Tuesday upcoming, which is when I will start. I am also looking to start a GHRP-6/Semerolin cycle which they are going to prescribe me as well.

**kelkel** · 10-25-2012, 09:19 PM

In addition to what GD said, post up your most recent BW with ranges for us to review please. Wouldn't it be nice to find the problem and correct it before starting on all of those meds?

There are issues with your protocol that we can address after you answer the above questions.

We are more than happy to help you out 21. I'm on east coast time so I'll check back in the a.m.

Welcome 21!

**steroid.com 1** · 10-25-2012, 09:29 PM

Originally Posted by 21yearsold

OK-

So when I first tested, it was during the afternoon and I had drawn a 273 ng/dl. This was on a very low scale of 290 ng/dl - 1080 ng/dl. The Docs freaked and sent me to Endo. I went to Endo and they told me I should get ANOTHER test done, but in the morning as your test levels peak then. The entire week leading up to the Endo appt. I was jacking it/having sex and trying to take all-natural test boosters as much as I could cause... Well that's embarrassing honestly. Specially at 21. When I went that morning after the appt., I tested at 390 ng/dl at the same lab. As a result of THAT, they classified me as Secondary. They prescribed me at .75 cc of 200mg/ml Cyp bi-weekly and mentioned it would probably be at least 2 years until I would be normal again. They gave me the first shot on 10/9/2012. I did some more research and found Kingsberg Medical. They taught me about excess test and how it aromatizes. They also mentioned that the dosage I am on will only be good to get me up to the 500 ng/dl range (something that my original endo had also said/confirmed). After looking at hours and hours of charts I'm convinced at 21 I should be in the 800-1000 range. They also confirmed that. I went off program and took another .75 cc last Tuesday and will be receiving the materials listed above this Tuesday upcoming, which is when I will start. I am also looking to start a GHRP-6/Semerolin cycle which they are going to prescribe me as well.

From what you described here it's impossible to diagnosis someone as Secondary Hypogonadal.

We need to see your blood work to help you.

Do you know what Secondary Hypogonadism is and what causes it?

Just for starters, things like Pituitary Tumors can and will cause it; have you had an MRI to see if there is a tumor?

Things like testicular tumors or testicular varicoceles can cause it; where you tested for that?

What were your LH and FSH assays? In range?

How about Prolactin levels...anyone look at those?

21 year old guys who are otherwise healthy don't have serum levels this low man.

Post your blood work and let us have at it

**Lunk1** · 10-25-2012, 09:30 PM

21...this isn't my forum to lurk in...Kel promises it will be soon, but please make sure you give these guys whatever info they need and work hand and glove with them. I would not be shocked if they are able to help you avoid being a TRT patient for the rest of your life. Best of luck to ypu for real!!!!

**21yearsold** · 10-25-2012, 09:34 PM

Guys-

It took me a while to edit PDF then convert to JPG. I whiteouted all the private details. Otherwise, have at em. Please refrain from putting me in a position to question 2 doctors. If anything, just some advice would be great! What to expect, what could be the cause, etc.

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**21yearsold** · 10-25-2012, 09:44 PM

edit-see below.

**steroid.com 1** · 10-25-2012, 09:48 PM

There is not ONE hormonal assay in these labs to make any medical diagnosis of Secondary Hypogonadism...not one!

Read the sticky at the top of the forum by kel on finding a TRT Doctor and you will see the labs you need; they don't exist here so it's impossible to make the kind of diagnosis your 2 Doctor's claim they can make...

You need to find out what's wrong with you, 21 year olds should never be put on a TRT protocol and if necessary it must be the absolute last course of action.

I suggest getting another opinion from a Physician who understands hormones in men and find out what's wrong with you...I am serious.

**21yearsold** · 10-25-2012, 09:48 PM

Originally Posted by gdevine

From what you described here it's impossible to diagnosis someone as Secondary Hypogonadal.

We need to see your blood work to help you.

Do you know what Secondary Hypogonadism is and what causes it?

Just for starters, things like Pituitary Tumors can and will cause it; have you had an MRI to see if there is a tumor?

Things like testicular tumors or testicular varicoceles can cause it; where you tested for that?

What were your LH and FSH assays? In range?

How about Prolactin levels...anyone look at those?

21 year old guys who are otherwise healthy don't have serum levels this low man.

Post your blood work and let us have at it

No you're right I recall him telling me that about Secondary, but I believe they diagnosed me Primary after remembering those things (sorry, it was on 10/9 so it's been a while).
They told me I didn't need a pituitary MRI. They said they're uncertain why I have Low T because I've never had a testes injury, they don't feel abnormal (Dr.'s opinion), don't hurt, LH levels are normal, but my body isn't producing enough testosterone ... possibly over-sensitized? IDK.

Prolactin=PSA? I got a PSA lab done JUST today to get onto the different treatment listed above.

Thanks!

**21yearsold** · 10-25-2012, 09:54 PM

Also NOTE:

I listed my FIRST BW done. The second ones I took, which I mentioned/described already, I don't have copies for. That's where I figured all T3/T4 levels free/total, all Lutenizing hormone stuff, etc.

**steroid.com 1** · 10-25-2012, 09:56 PM

Ok, if you are primary then tell us about yourself.

Did you mature and go through puberty correctly? Have body hair and deep male voice? Lean muscle mass? Get erections? Have a libido?

If you matured correctly and had a sudden onset of Primary Hypogonadism you need to determine why this happened with a proper medical diagnosis...something is wrong with you and you don't know why.

Find out as soon as you can...

**21yearsold** · 10-25-2012, 09:59 PM

I hit puberty at about 11 years old. I was 6'1" in 6th grade. Huge growth spurts characterized most of my life and like all my family I have body hair and a deep-enough male voice. Lean muscle mass... LOL... I remember that at one point... Long time ago. 3 years about give or take. Wasn't ever LEAN though, I always looked watery growing up. EVEN though I benched like 345 my 10th grade year in HS and worked out alot. NEVER could get even close to a 6-pack. And I daresay, I knew how to workout and diet properly.

**21yearsold** · 10-25-2012, 10:02 PM

It also might help to know that my dad was diagnosed with this recently and my mother has hypothyroidism. Now, I believe it's because our microwave has no cover and it spills radiation into the kitchen every time you turn it on. Maybe sodium fluoride in the water, IDK. Maybe it's just (un)luck of the draw.

**steroid.com 1** · 10-25-2012, 10:04 PM

You need to find a Urologist who works with young men and rule out any testicular pathology...I kid you not.

Testicular malignancy can cause the problems you are describing and you need to know what's wrong with you.

From what you described you weren't primary your whole life so if it was a sudden onset all the more reason to find out what's causing it.

Please, don't start your TRT protocol till you have a definitive diagnosis...okay?

**10nispro** · 10-25-2012, 10:04 PM

We understand your frustrations with all that has been told to you and its coming from all directions. One thing you will learn on this site is we ask questions because we have your interests and health as our main concern. Each forum has its specialist, per se, that read and deal with said problems more often than most dr's will see in years. That being said, we arent telling you to not trust your Doctor's but learn to question them if they have no concrete answers on diagnosis given that deal with your well being.

Thanks for trusting all on here and sorry if embarassment was caused.

**steroid.com 1** · 10-25-2012, 10:06 PM

Originally Posted by 21yearsold

It also might help to know that my dad was diagnosed with this recently and my mother has hypothyroidism. Now, I believe it's because our microwave has no cover and it spills radiation into the kitchen every time you turn it on. Maybe sodium fluoride in the water, IDK. Maybe it's just (un)luck of the draw.

No, you stated your LH levels are good so hypothyroidism wouldn't be the cause. That is if it was tested and evaluated correctly.

Last time I am going to say it; you need a proper diagnosis before you start a TRT protocol.

**Lunk1** · 10-25-2012, 10:08 PM

I just cruised the other thread in Q&A (which if I were you I would ignore now that you are where you need to be) and I just had a quick question. Is your goal to avoid TRT if possible? Say for example one of these guys were able to point out something your Doc missed or didn't check for, are you interested in getting another opinion if necessary in order to stay off of HRT for life??

**21yearsold** · 10-25-2012, 10:10 PM

OK-

Here's the problem. I live in Texas, but am 90% probably going to be moving WAY out of state here soon. I don't know if I can schedule a urologist appointment before end of next week when I fly out on next Saturday? I've already started program anyways. But I am going to take your advice and pursue a diagnosis because I would really like to find that out. Urologists also handle kidney/liver issues right? Cause I want to knock out 2 birds with one stone if I'm spending specialist-money

.

**21yearsold** · 10-25-2012, 10:13 PM

Originally Posted by Lunk1

I just cruised the other thread in Q&A (which if I were you I would ignore now that you are where you need to be) and I just had a quick question. Is your goal to avoid TRT if possible? Say for example one of these guys were able to point out something your Doc missed or didn't check for, are you interested in getting another opinion if necessary in order to stay off of HRT for life??

Great, I mean GREAT question. Nobody ever asked me that. I'll be honest, YES I want to get a diagnosis. Because if something IS wrong with my balls, I really would like to know the sooner the better. However, after more than a YEAR of feeling... dead... depressed, lousy, ashamed, embarrassed, gaining stretch marks, having ED, starting to bald... When I got this diagnosis, it was like a slice of HOPE. Like, wow, maybe I can fix all my issues. And I jumped on it immediately. I've already taken 2 shots and am about to get switched over to another care where they're going to be sending me an EXTRA bottle of test cyp and all that stuff listed above.

**steroid.com 1** · 10-25-2012, 10:18 PM

Originally Posted by 21yearsold

OK-

Here's the problem. I live in Texas, but am 90% probably going to be moving WAY out of state here soon. I don't know if I can schedule a urologist appointment before end of next week when I fly out on next Saturday? I've already started program anyways. But I am going to take your advice and pursue a diagnosis because I would really like to find that out. Urologists also handle kidney/liver issues right? Cause I want to knock out 2 birds with one stone if I'm spending specialist-money

.

A Urologist will know how to test and diagnosis your testes.

Now that you are on a TRT protocol any test the Doc does will be masked as a result.

The Doc will do other things.

Get the other set of blood work and post it here; that's the one I want to see.

Find a Urologist that works primarily for men and men only.

**Lunk1** · 10-25-2012, 10:32 PM

Originally Posted by 21yearsold

Great, I mean GREAT question. Nobody ever asked me that. I'll be honest, YES I want to get a diagnosis. Because if something IS wrong with my balls, I really would like to know the sooner the better. However, after more than a YEAR of feeling... dead... depressed, lousy, ashamed, embarrassed, gaining stretch marks, having ED, starting to bald... When I got this diagnosis, it was like a slice of HOPE. Like, wow, maybe I can fix all my issues. And I jumped on it immediately. I've already taken 2 shots and am about to get switched over to another care where they're going to be sending me an EXTRA bottle of test cyp and all that stuff listed above.

I hope the answer in this explanation is "yes I want to avoid TRT for the rest of my life". I know as I am about to turn 40 I revel in the fact that I have no need for TRT YET? I plan to take MOST every procaution I can to avoid it.

I am no expert but I have the gut feeling that something has been overlooked by your Doc and Endo. The fact is that 21 y.o. TRT patients is sooooo far from the norm that it seems there is most likely a diiferent diagnoses as you and Gdevine have been working towards.

Sorry to sidetrack guys....carry on!

**21yearsold** · 10-25-2012, 10:33 PM

Originally Posted by gdevine

A Urologist will know how to test and diagnosis your testes.

Now that you are on a TRT protocol any test the Doc does will be masked as a result.

The Doc will do other things.

Get the other set of blood work and post it here; that's the one I want to see.

Find a Urologist that works primarily for men and men only.

It's funny you asked this at this time cause I JUST went through my stuff for it and found them. Sorry, I don't have a scanner at home and had to take pics with phone/edit in MSPaint.

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**steroid.com 1** · 10-25-2012, 11:10 PM

That's what I wanted to see, thank you.

You mostly likely don't have Hypothyroidism; your Free T4 and T3 are fine. I would have liked to have seen Reverse T3 but there's nothing in the thyroid panels that is of concern as presented here.

LH is fine and should be more then enough to stimulate the testes to produce.

Your Testosterone serum levels are clearly low and I don't see an Estrogen assay on here which is a critical assay in determining why your testosterone serum levles low.

Are you overweight by any chance?

The symptoms you describe point to low Testosterone levels yes, but also high Estrogen levels as well.

I didn't see the Estrogen (Estradiol) assay and it's a big piece of the puzzle.

Outside of that; you need to have someone evaluate your testicular function and rule out any potential issues or disease.

**21yearsold** · 10-25-2012, 11:18 PM

Originally Posted by gdevine

Your Testosterone serum levels are clearly low and I don't see an Estrogen assay on here which is a critical assay in determining why your testosterone serum levles low.

Are you overweight by any chance?

The symptoms you describe point to low Testosterone levels yes, but also high Estrogen levels as well.

I didn't see the Estrogen (Estradiol) assay and it's a big piece of the puzzle.

Outside of that; you need to have someone evaluate your testicular function and rule out any potential issues or disease.

1. 6'3" and I'm 240ish. Gained 35-40 lbs. over the past year. BMI is like 28? Yes I'm overweight. It's all fat.
2. That's disturbing that they didn't think of that.
3. Urologist?

**10nispro** · 10-25-2012, 11:22 PM

OP--It looks as though you are getting some answers that are leading you in the right direction. Just the extra weight you have put on can explain lots of whats going on.

**21yearsold** · 10-25-2012, 11:29 PM

Originally Posted by 10nispro

OP--It looks as though you are getting some answers that are leading you in the right direction. Just the extra weight you have put on can explain lots of whats going on.

That definitely blew my mind on the estrogen suggestion... Lol that rhymed... So what's the treatment for that when that happens then?

**steroid.com 1** · 10-25-2012, 11:33 PM

Originally Posted by 21yearsold

1. 6'3" and I'm 240ish. Gained 35-40 lbs. over the past year. BMI is like 28? Yes I'm overweight. It's all fat.
2. That's disturbing that they didn't think of that.
3. Urologist?

We're finally getting somewhere...

You need to ask your Doc to test for Estradiol (Sensitive assay) as soon as you can.

Read the sticky at the top of the forum on Estradiol and Management...it will tell you much.

If you are carrying a lot of body fat it stores an enzyme called "aromatase" which will bind with the receptors on your testosterone and synthesize it into Estradiol.

This is turn will lower your Testosterone serum levels and increase unwanted Estradiol levels causing all the problems you have.

Correct the aromatize problem and correct your Testosterone serum levels...you may not need to be on TRT at all.

Read the sticky and learn...then call your Doc tomorrow and say you need an E2 Sensitive Assay as soon as possible!!!

**21yearsold** · 10-25-2012, 11:38 PM

Originally Posted by gdevine

We're finally getting somewhere...

You need to ask your Doc to test for Estradiol (Sensitive assay) as soon as you can.

Read the sticky at the top of the forum on Estradiol and Management...it will tell you much.

If you are carrying a lot of body fat it stores an enzyme called "aromatase" which will bind with the receptors on your testosterone and synthesize it into Estradiol.

This is turn will lower your Testosterone serum levels and increase unwanted Estradiol levels causing all the problems you have.

Correct the aromatize problem and correct your Testosterone serum levels...you may not need to be on TRT at all.

Read the sticky and learn...then call your Doc tomorrow and say you need an E2 Sensitive Assay as soon as possible!!!

What about the things I have listed:

Anastrozole (20) .05MG capsules
Tamoxifen (20) 11 MG capsules

Doesn't that inhibit that aromatization in general?

**steroid.com 1** · 10-25-2012, 11:38 PM

[QUOTE=21yearsold;6231180]That definitely blew my mind on the estrogen suggestion... Lol that rhymed... So what's the treatment for that when that happens then?[/QUOTE]

A pill called an "Aromatase Inhibitor" going by a common name like Anastrozole.

**steroid.com 1** · 10-25-2012, 11:43 PM

Originally Posted by 21yearsold

What about the things I have listed:

Anastrozole (20) .05MG capsules
Tamoxifen (20) 11 MG capsules

Doesn't that inhibit that aromatization in general?

Yes, the Anastrozole will control it but you don't know the root cause for your problem and you need to know that.

Starting on Testosterone under 35 is a very serious issue and if the root of your cause was simply elevated E2 it could have been managed by diet, exercise and a short term Anastrozole protocol.

See what I am saying...?

You need to understand the consequences for a guy your age injecting Testosterone into your body...it's not good.

Are you going to a TRT Clinic by any chance???

**10nispro** · 10-25-2012, 11:43 PM

Tweak your diet, exercise along with taking anastrozole will be a good start and you will start seeing and feeling positive results. Hold off on the test for a few weeks and see how the other forementioned works

**Wazz** · 10-25-2012, 11:45 PM

Hang in there 21, no TRT issues here, but I stop to read all the threads. I'm sorry you're going through this at such a young age....

Good luck & awesome to see you getting help here!

**21yearsold** · 10-25-2012, 11:48 PM

Originally Posted by gdevine

Yes, the Anastrozole will control it but you don't know the root cause for your problem and you need to know that.

Starting on Testosterone under 35 is a very serious issue and if the root of your cause was simply elevated E2 it could have been managed by diet, exercise and a short term Anastrozole protocol.

See what I am saying...?

You need to understand the consequences for a guy your age injecting Testosterone into your body...it's not good.

Are you going to a TRT Clinic by any chance???

I'm going to Kingsberg Medical. They specialize in HRT and TRT. They're also going to be getting me on a GHRP-6 and Semerolin therapy. Their thought process is similar to what many people on here believe... If IGF-1 is below 300, DO it.

**steroid.com 1** · 10-25-2012, 11:55 PM

Now I understand; they are a huge hormone clinic and it all makes sense now...they are financially motivated and nothing more.

You are not getting the correct care in my opinion and you could very well end up in a worse place.

You need to find a Physician who can help you that does not have the motivations of a clinic like this.

Do you have insurance and where do you live?

**21yearsold** · 10-25-2012, 11:59 PM

Originally Posted by gdevine

Now I understand; they are a huge hormone clinic and it all makes sense now...they are financially motivated and nothing more.

You are not getting the correct care in my opinion and you could very well end up in a worse place.

You need to find a Physician who can help you that does not have the motivations of a clinic like this.

Do you have insurance and where do you live?

I actually went to them AFTER leaving the Endo who told me NOTHING about E2/aromatization of test. Before him, my primary physician recommended me to him after he saw I tested low on T. 1st endo prescribed .75 cc bi-weekly and said once I got to the 400-500 range he would stop... THAT IS BULLSHIT. I went to them on recommendation of a friend who uses them too. Just sucks they aren't coverable by insurance. What physician isn't financially motivated/why wouldn't they be giving me the right care?

I live in Austin, TX.

**10nispro** · 10-26-2012, 12:08 AM

Like i stated in an earlier post, its not them so much as pointing you in the wrong direction, i believe they arent exactly sure of how to deal with your issues although trained, so they just throw out stuff and hope it corrects and you being young want second guess them. You did right by finding this site. The people on here truly care and are very well trained and versed in the world of steroids and how to properly use them if they are even needed.

**kelkel** · 10-26-2012, 07:39 AM

GD and the guys did a GREAT job as usual. Op, take the advice given and run with it. Simply this for now. Find a better doctor that you can trust and work with who has a good knowledge base in male hormone levels. Get the e2 assay asap. Lower E2 = higher T levels. Read this on estrogen levels: http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2010/...ing-Men_01.htm Don't dismiss it due to the "Aging" comment in the title. It still applies.

When it comes to Sermorelin / GHRP6 combo. You do not need it at this point. Your IGF1 levels are just fine. That's just the hot item for clinics to push on clients currently. Save the money and put it toward good nutrition. You may consider visiting the Nutrition forum on this site to get advice from the guys there. It's basically free advice from nutritionists!

Do not start the alleged TRT / Cycle protocol given to you. It has issues. It's one or the other, TRT or a cycle. TRT does not come with PCT so I have no clue what they are thinking with that.

**Juced_porkchop** · 10-26-2012, 09:55 AM

They are milking you, go to an ENDO that doesn not rely with all his staff and workers in the HRT clinic (money money money from each person they can pin as "they need this" and then prescribe away.)
there are alot of these it seems now. most help.
this doc just dosnt seem to care about you in my op

i read your other thread, in not reading all the BS after the first post here.

you need to go see another doc. and you need to not get in the mind set to use steroids , and your too young, even on hrt, mentally you are not right for it. others will agree.
only 52 posts 40 of bitching and only hearing and believing what he wants....